Looking for a new system

[Newoblivion]

Hello there fallow players!

Me and my friends are playing d&d 4e for about a year and a half, and we are really suffering. We are much more the role playing kind of players then the combat focused ones. The problem is that we are very engaged in the story itself, and we would like to keep playing the characters and continue the story.

We are looking for a system which is much more like WoD and Shadowrun, where characters don't have levels, and there's a condition bar rather then HP, and most importantly a system that will flash out the character itself and not how powerful her daily powers are.

I thought about adapting Shadowrun to a more D&D like setting, but it will be much easier to find a system which is good and have answers to our needs.

We would really appreciate your help!

:smallsmile:

[Actana]

Fate Core (http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core-downloads/) (download link; it's sold on a pay-what-you-want scheme), as is often the case, suits your descriptions fairly well, though it might be a bit less crunchy than you're looking for. It's a narrativist system that focuses on dramatic and dynamic characters who drive the story, with mechanics to complement the focus. It's also fairly unorthodox by D&D standards, so it may require a bit of calibrating of expectations. Character creation is extremely free and allows for the most varying of concepts. It's also highly customizable. If you're looking for an easier transition from D&D into the system, I would recommend the Freeport Fate Companion as it's made to be a Fate version of D&D ideas.

[Newoblivion]

I am not looking for crunch as much as I am looking for player freedom. I don't want players to be restricted to set amount of powers, and I don't want combat abilities and gear to be 80% of the character sheet.

[JBPuffin]

That's definitely Fate Core, then. Sounds like a perfect fit - it has literally everything.

[Eonas]

Try Burning Wheel - never played it but I think it satisfies your requirements.

[Kalmageddon]

As always my advice is simply that if you are considering FATE you should go freeform instead.
If you are in any way interested in the crunch of a system, play something else. Shadowrun and WoD are both good, why not those? I assure you that FATE wont' spare you any work in adapting things, since it requires the GM to fill a lot of blank spaces. Granted, considerting that the equivalent of feats all work in exactly the same way (+2 bonus on some circumstantial test) it will be quick work, if boring, but still...

[Actana]

As always my advice is simply that if you are considering FATE you should go freeform instead.
If you are in any way interested in the crunch of a system, play something else. Shadowrun and WoD are both good, why not those? I assure you that FATE wont' spare you any work in adapting things, since it requires the GM to fill a lot of blank spaces. Granted, considerting that the equivalent of feats all work in exactly the same way (+2 bonus on some circumstantial test) it will be quick work, if boring, but still...

Here we go again... Do you have a personal vendetta against Fate, or is it just coincidental that you always come along to trash Fate whenever it's mentioned?

Even so, stunts do not all work in a +2 to a circumstantial test. That's only a single version of them. You can make them as almost any sort of ability. Here, have a few stunts (http://evilhat.wikidot.com/fate-core-stunts). And those are only from the freely available sources. Yes, a lot of them are +2 to something or replacing one skill with another, but there are a lot of stunts that don't do that.

Edit: when it comes to the +2 to X stunts, I find them a fairly light yet flavorful way of defining a character, and the entire concept of combining fluff and crunch runs heavily with Fate. A character who has, say, a +2 to attacking enemies who are prone will of course try to exploit that skill at every possibility: it's part of his fighting style. The same with a person who can get lies past others better, that person is a natural conman who will try to lie his way past everyone. Then there are the more specific and "new action" kind of stunts that can do things that characters normally wouldn't be able to, which again works to make a concept a lot better. A character who can, upon a successful defense, move a zone away from their attacker is a natural coward (or at least cautious), and you take that stunt if you want to emphasize that fact on the character. In addition to telling what the character can do, stunts can, and should, also tell what the character is like. And that's a thing not many games do outside of token efforts (3.X's flaws or traits) or an Advantage/Disadvantage system which is often entirely separate from the rest of the mechanics.

On another note, Fate can work for more crunchy games. The Dresden Files RPG has quite comprehensive rules for creating and casting spells with a system that is both flexible and relatively deep. Nova Praxis has rules for firearms, including special actions you can take with them, as well as things like specific rules for environmental effects, vehicles and the like. Not everything in Fate is just "GM fiat" or "the GM makes stuff up". Fate is easy to customize and benefits greatly from it.

[Kaun]

Maybe try Dungeon World?

It has a lot of good mechanics for developing a story. The combat system works and plays quickly. It also has my favorite social resolution system of any RP game i have played or read so far.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

We are looking for a system which is much more like WoD and Shadowrun, where characters don't have levels, and there's a condition bar rather then HP, and most importantly a system that will flash out the character itself and not how powerful her daily powers are.

I thought about adapting Shadowrun to a more D&D like setting, but it will be much easier to find a system which is good and have answers to our needs.

Interestingly, Burning Wheel is almost exactly what you'd get if you D&Dfied Shadowrun. And I'm gonna suggest it, with caveats.

A: the entire point of BW is to flesh out the character, their ethics, their background, and the things that drive them. Every time I've made a character in the system, I've come away with a full sense of who they were, where they came from, and what sorts of things they think and do. Enough that I've actually adapted some of those tools into my D&D 4th game I just started.
B: no levels, for sure! It's all skill-based, and you have a variety of skills that are all potentially useful. (You should see the archer in one game whose specialty is the Inconspicuous skill; they love blending into crowds after or before making a kill.)
C: instead of HP, characters accumulate wounds that remove dice from their pool. When you have enough wounds to reduce one of your attributes to 0, you pass out until your wounds can be healed.
D: it's very much a game where you're in it for the long haul: skills develop over time, you practice and learn skills during in-game downtime, and things change

Caveat, there's a lot to learn. Fortunately, you don't have to jump headfirst into everything, but can learn it bit by bit. And as you learn the system, it all fits together really well.

If you're interested, the first 70 pages are free (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/98542/Burning-Wheel-Gold-Hub-and-Spokes), and explain how to play the basic game.

[Kalmageddon]

Here we go again... Do you have a personal vendetta against Fate, or is it just coincidental that you always come along to trash Fate whenever it's mentioned?

I don't understand why I shouldn't express my opinion. Your opinion is that Fate is good for everything. My opinion is the exact opposite. I think giving someone looking for a system a second opinion is only fair. It helps that I've played it and studied the core book since the last few discussions.
Do you have a problem with that?

Anyway, I'm not looking to start any argument. Let's just agree to disagree and let the OP make his choice.

[Actana]

I don't understand why I shouldn't express my opinion. Your opinion is that Fate is good for everything. My opinion is the exact opposite. I think giving someone looking for a system a second opinion is only fair. It helps that I've played it and studied the core book since the last few discussions.
Do you have a problem with that?

Anyway, I'm not looking to start any argument. Let's just agree to disagree and let the OP make his choice.

Fair enough. I do apologize for my tone, I was fairly tired at the time. I'm not looking to start an argument either, but I did want to correct the slight misconception on stunts.

(Quick edit: I don't necessarily think Fate is good for everything: it's good for character focused narrative games. I wouldn't run games that have a high focus on specific things, like combat or intrigue or investigation with it. While Fate can be modified to make it work for different concepts better, I'd still much prefer to have a system dedicated to the concept. Fate works for games that have their focus on the characters and their exploits in a broader focus instead of narrowing it down to certain aspects. In addition, I find it best for competent characters too, so a game where the characters aren't that powerful might be better suited for another system that has an explicit focus on that. A gritty dungeon crawl would be a poor fit for Fate for example, and I'd use Torchbearer for that instead.)

As far as the topic goes, Burning Wheel exists on the same focus-spectrum as Fate, but in the polar opposite of mechanical complexity. Burning Wheel is one of the crunchiest games I know of, but is also well written and consistent. If you're looking for mechanical and narrative depth, you'd do well to go with it, despite being fairly difficult to learn.

[Newoblivion]

Thanks a lot guys! I will check everything that was suggested here. Also please keep in mind that I need to keep the same characters and story, and not just to start a brand new game.

So can I translate (as close as posdible) races and class themes to those systems?

[Kaun]

maybe you should tell us what races and classes you are dealing with to aid the situation.

[holywhippet]

Thanks a lot guys! I will check everything that was suggested here. Also please keep in mind that I need to keep the same characters and story, and not just to start a brand new game.

So can I translate (as close as posdible) races and class themes to those systems?

Fate doesn't have classes per se. Instead you have a list of skills that you assign a proficiency level to - from 1 to 5 to start with generally. When you try to use that skill you start with your proficiency level and roll your fate dice which gives you a modifier between -4 and 4 (fate dice have two pluses, two minuses and two blanks. You add the pluses, subtract the minuses and ignore the blanks). You compare you result to the difficulty of what you were trying to do. If you fall short you can spend any fate points you have to boost your result.

You can also buy stunts out of your fate point reserves. Stunts make you better in some way, like having the ability to touch an item and sense something about it's past or be unnaturally good at resisting damage.

Fate points are a pool of points you can spend to help out something your character achieve something (ie. because they are fated to succeed). Or you can spend them to impose your view of how the story should work (eg. spend a point so that the locker you just opened happens to have something your really need at the moment). They refresh with each session. If you spend some of your point reserves on stunts then your maximum point reserve is permanently lowered. So you are better in some specific way, but are less generally able to influence how things go otherwise. The DM can offer the players fate points if the DM wants to impose a situation that is unfavorable to the player. Players have to have at least one fate point in their reserve total. If they lose them all some how their PC becomes an NPC (in the Dresden files game it can happen if a wizard breaks a law of magic. They get a lawbreaker stunt. The idea is that their actions are now fully dictated by their nature. They have no free will any more and thus can't be a PC any more).

Things like loot aren't part of a Fate game per se. Resources is a skill and you can have anything it suggests you should be able to afford.

If you are moving from D&D I'd consider looking into the Dresden Files RPG as it includes magic and monsters as part of it's design.

[Newoblivion]

Water Genasi Warlord, Tiefling Star Warlock, Deva Invoker and Human Swordmage. I do realize that they wont keep their combat roles, but we are not combat kind of players, but we do like to keep with the theme of the characters as much as possible.

[Actana]

If you are moving from D&D I'd consider looking into the Dresden Files RPG as it includes magic and monsters as part of it's design.

For moving from D&D to Fate I'd recommend the Fate Freeport Companion, which I mentioned earlier. It's essentially D&D in Fate. Skills are replaced with the six ability scores and the game even has rules for converting D&D abilities to Fate's skill system (Up to +4, an ability bonus equals the skill's rank, but penalties and higher bonuses are a bit sparser). The book itself focuses more on swashbuckling pirate adventures but still works on a D&D-friendly basis, with a rather nice pirate-themed bestiary with all sorts of monsters from giant clams to serpent people. It also includes a D&D-ish magic system which is easy to get a grasp on (and includes D&D spells like Magic Missile or Shield or Wall of Force), though definitely not as versatile as DFRPG's take.

Edit:

Water Genasi Warlord, Tiefling Star Warlock, Deva Invoker and Human Swordmage. I do realize that they wont keep their combat roles, but we are not combat kind of players, but we do like to keep with the theme of the characters as much as possible.
Given that Fate doesn't work on the basis of race/class combinations, it's impossible to create a Fate version of characters with just that. Fate's mechanics focus a lot more on who the characters are, their relationships with each other, place in the world, and so forth. What they can do is then derived from that. Given a description of the important points of a character and their background I might be better able to create a Fate character from that, but not with just a race/class combo.

[Mutazoia]

You could always try Amber Diceless RPG, which is a point buy system, and pretty much completely RP from there...no levels, no HP..

The Amber setting was based on the novels by Roger Zalazney...another game, using the very same rules but cutting out all the "Amber" specific info is Lords of Gossamer and Shadow. Exact same system but a little more "Universal" (which is funny given the basic concept of the Amber setting itself).

[Kalmageddon]

Water Genasi Warlord, Tiefling Star Warlock, Deva Invoker and Human Swordmage. I do realize that they wont keep their combat roles, but we are not combat kind of players, but we do like to keep with the theme of the characters as much as possible.

Honesty, I feel the least "traumatic" conversion possibile would be to the Storyteller system. It's really easy to convert class special abilities while even keeping the generic roles of the characters intact.
It also already has the framework for classes and races with mechanical differences, while also allowing you to expand on those, if you feel like it. So instead of just having some starting differences, a race could give access to unique abilities tied to the class.

Specifically I'm thinking of something like how OWoD handled Werewolf the Apocalypse, have you ever played it?

[Newoblivion]

Its okay we don't need classes, and I am sure that we can find some house rules or small tweaks for races. I just need that the system will support the different spell casters enough that they will feel that the spirit of the old character is still there. If its impossible then we will most likely just drop 4e and start something new.

[Metahuman1]

I hear 5E D&D is coming down the line soon, Pathfinder is a thing that is apparently getting better with more and more good 3rd party material, and I've heard good things about Fantasy Craft. But I understand these may not be what your looking for.


With some refluffing, Legends of Wulin might fit. And Mutants and Masterminds 3rd edition is an extremely flexible system were you can make pretty much anything and fits nearly any fluff.

[hamlet]

Well, devil's advocate here, if you're looking for a fantasy game that plays like Shadowrun . . . you can always give Earthdawn a try. It's, theorectically, the same universe as shadowrun, just the last time that magic waxed and became powerful. It's a very similar system, I'm told, and quite fun.

No, I haven't played it myself, but I've been told good things about it if you don't like the D&D style level/class/race setup.

[Airk]

Honesty, I feel the least "traumatic" conversion possibile would be to the Storyteller system. It's really easy to convert class special abilities while even keeping the generic roles of the characters intact.

Uh, I fail to see how there is anything straightforward about converting D&D characters to Storyteller.

Anyway, the obvious answer to "Hey guys, I have a D&D game that I want to run in a lighter system" is, as was mentioned earlier, Dungeon World.

[Kalmageddon]

Uh, I fail to see how there is anything straightforward about converting D&D characters to Storyteller.

Anyway, the obvious answer to "Hey guys, I have a D&D game that I want to run in a lighter system" is, as was mentioned earlier, Dungeon World.

If you are honestly trying to understand something you failed to understand, the answer is in the "specifically..." at the end of my post. There are quite a few similarities between the structure of a Werewolf the Apocalypse character and the structure of a D&D character.
Also, both WtA and D&D are epic fantasy where punching out powerful entities is the norm.

I hope this helps you.

[Airk]

If you are honestly trying to understand something you failed to understand, the answer is in the "specifically..." at the end of my post. There are quite a few similarities between the structure of a Werewolf the Apocalypse character and the structure of a D&D character.

In that both have a "class"? And "attributes"? Though neither of those really map to anything in the other system. I've played oWoD Werewolf, and I can say with some authority that converting a D&D character to that system would basically be rebuilding them from the ground up, to say nothing of having to essentially write all new rules because nothing in the system has a useful analogue in D&D at anything other than the highest level.



Also, both WtA and D&D are epic fantasy where punching out powerful entities is the norm.

Wow, that really narrows the RPG space down, doesn't it? :smallconfused: Does this mean that it's also super easy to convert D&D characters to Marvel Heroic Roleplaying? And Street Fighter the RPG? and Numenera? and HERO? and Tenra Bansho Zero? and Exalted? And Wushu? All of those are games in which "punching out powerful entities is the norm."

Honestly, I'd sooner convert to Fate, and that's not because I think Fate is a particularly good match here, but rather because I think Storyteller is a particularly poor one.

[Eisenheim]

Its okay we don't need classes, and I am sure that we can find some house rules or small tweaks for races. I just need that the system will support the different spell casters enough that they will feel that the spirit of the old character is still there. If its impossible then we will most likely just drop 4e and start something new.

When I ran a world that was originally intended for D&D in FATE, I just gave people an extra aspect to use for their race. That seemed to work well for the little bit we played. The fate system toolkit has lots of good advice about how to build magic systems in fate; I think you can fairly easily make something that will capture whatever parts of the D&D experience you find most important while discarding what you don't want.

[Kalmageddon]

In that both have a "class"? And "attributes"? Though neither of those really map to anything in the other system. I've played oWoD Werewolf, and I can say with some authority that converting a D&D character to that system would basically be rebuilding them from the ground up, to say nothing of having to essentially write all new rules because nothing in the system has a useful analogue in D&D at anything other than the highest level.



Wow, that really narrows the RPG space down, doesn't it? :smallconfused: Does this mean that it's also super easy to convert D&D characters to Marvel Heroic Roleplaying? And Street Fighter the RPG? and Numenera? and HERO? and Tenra Bansho Zero? and Exalted? And Wushu? All of those are games in which "punching out powerful entities is the norm."

Honestly, I'd sooner convert to Fate, and that's not because I think Fate is a particularly good match here, but rather because I think Storyteller is a particularly poor one.

Suit yourself.

[Red Fel]

I think the point, Newoblivion, is that it's extraordinarily hard to have it both ways.

D&D and its ilk tend to be extremely combat-focused, and have tight class-and-race-based systems that tell you explicitly what your characters can and cannot do.

Systems that remove levels tend to be more along the lines of a point-buy system, where you select abilities and aptitudes separately, and growth is more organic rather than rigidly paced. They tend to dispense with classes (and in some cases, races) entirely, because if you can purchase each aspect of your character a la carte, why force-bundle it into classes and the like?

The end result is that, if you're switching from a class-based system like 4e to a non-class system, you might simply consider abandoning pretense altogether. Don't even try to bring the characters in, unless you're prepared to dive into the various complementary powers and abilities of your new system to determine how they could work together to reproduce specific effects. Instead, I'd advise you to start with a clean slate.

You say you want a system that's more free with respect to what your characters can do, rather than constrained by combat and a class system. So why limit that freedom by making your first order of business an attempt to reconstruct those characters? Abandon the preconception! Play in the sandbox awhile, enjoy your new-found liberties.

[Airk]

You say you want a system that's more free with respect to what your characters can do, rather than constrained by combat and a class system. So why limit that freedom by making your first order of business an attempt to reconstruct those characters? Abandon the preconception! Play in the sandbox awhile, enjoy your new-found liberties.

This seems like a strange philosophy - obviously they want to continue the story, which involves playing as the same characters, which involves the characters having at least vaguely similar capabilities to what they have now. If those characters then grow in new directions, that's fine, but having them abruptly change as the result of the system transition would be jarring.

[Red Fel]

This seems like a strange philosophy - obviously they want to continue the story, which involves playing as the same characters, which involves the characters having at least vaguely similar capabilities to what they have now. If those characters then grow in new directions, that's fine, but having them abruptly change as the result of the system transition would be jarring.

In which case, you may as well continue the story in the system you're currently using, finish it off, then start fresh in the new one.

Switching games in mid-campaign doesn't tend to translate well. That's my experience, anyways. The character will feel distinctly off, because it's fairly uncommon for a different system to handle the same mechanics in precisely the same way.

[Newoblivion]

I kinda agree that it will feel off. The thing is, I don't know all the systems out there, and I hoped that maybe there's something that can help with the transition and will help us continue the story. We have noticed that our experience with systems like Shadowrun and WoD was better due to more established and focused character creation and development tools.

At first my idea was to just switch to Shadowrun and use only the options that can be available to a D&D like setting. While using cyberwares as permanent enchantments or something like that.

I will take a look at all of the systems that were suggested here, and see maybe one of them can work for us.

[Airk]

I kinda agree that it will feel off. The thing is, I don't know all the systems out there, and I hoped that maybe there's something that can help with the transition and will help us continue the story.

I don't really think it's going to feel that odd so long as you switch to a system that reasonably approximates the sorts of things you used to be able to do.



We have noticed that our experience with systems like Shadowrun and WoD was better due to more established and focused character creation and development tools.

I want to question this - what about character creation/development 'worked' for you guys in these systems? because neither of them is a system that would be anywhere near my top 10 in the "helping characters have character" area.



At first my idea was to just switch to Shadowrun and use only the options that can be available to a D&D like setting. While using cyberwares as permanent enchantments or something like that.

If you're looking for ways to ENSURE your game feels 'off' this would be it.

[Newoblivion]

I want to question this - what about character creation/development 'worked' for you guys in these systems? because neither of them is a system that would be anywhere near my top 10 in the "helping characters have character" area.

In WoD we played VtM, and the fact that combat abilities were just another skill, and that my character is much more then this helped a lot. The nature and demeanor aspects of the game were great, along with the conscience, courage and self control ideas. It felt that the game itself guides you to the experience that it was aiming for, which was personal horror. And the entire fight against your vampiric nature (the beast) was really a big factor in our gaming sessions. It felt great.

I agree that Shadowrun is lacking a bit on the character depth mechanics, but the freedom you have in creating your own unique character is huge, and the character development is very realistic (you need to work and spend time in order to advance your abilities).

We need to remember that the game is what we make of it. And I am sure that there are other systems which are much better then those I played. I just never knew about them. I am also sure that many people play 4e and create amazing characters and have huge fun.

I will gladly read about new games, for me WoD (VtM) was the best so far, and if you say that there are much better things out there then I believe you. I am also asking if you can tell me about this games so I will try them myself :)

[Airk]

In WoD we played VtM, and the fact that combat abilities were just another skill, and that my character is much more then this helped a lot. The nature and demeanor aspects of the game were great, along with the conscience, courage and self control ideas. It felt that the game itself guides you to the experience that it was aiming for, which was personal horror. And the entire fight against your vampiric nature (the beast) was really a big factor in our gaming sessions. It felt great.

This is actually fascinating for me, because I can say with some confidence that these mechanics do not have this effect for a lot of people.



We need to remember that the game is what we make of it. And I am sure that there are other systems which are much better then those I played. I just never knew about them. I am also sure that many people play 4e and create amazing characters and have huge fun.

This is definitely the case!



I will gladly read about new games, for me WoD (VtM) was the best so far, and if you say that there are much better things out there then I believe you. I am also asking if you can tell me about this games so I will try them myself :)

Well, Burning Wheel has already been mentioned - it seems to very much be what you are looking for, since you appreciate the "realism" of the Shadowrun system. It's probably easiest to get it HERE (http://www.burningwheel.com/store/).

Fate has already been mentioned, but a lot of the time I feel Fate is SO OPEN that people flail around trying to figure out what to do with it.

At the end of the day, you can't, really, find a game that has LESS emphasis on building "character" when building a character than D&D (Any edition - this is not unique to 4th). But if I wanted to rattle off a bunch of games that do cool and interesting things which help you to build Character:

Houses of the Blooded (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/61061/Houses-of-the-Blooded)
Tenra Bansho Zero (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/111713/Tenra-Bansho-Zero-Heaven-and-Earth-Edition)
MonsterHearts (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/100540/Monsterhearts)
Polaris (http://www.tao-games.com/hello-world/)
Dogs in the Vineyard (http://theunstore.com/index.php/unstore/game/1)

Note that I am not actually recommending any of these games for your "Hey, we're looking to convert our D&D game..." but all of them are Dirty Hippy Story Games (I use this term with affection, because I think they are all EXCELLENT games) which place more of the character's personality onto the character sheet (which inexplicably seems to offend some people.).

This is a pretty deep tunnel to go down, but those should be plenty to keep you amused for a while. ;)

[lightningcat]

I've actually used oWoD for a D&D adventure. It does work, but the races are the hardest part to convert. Although as a side note, I think that most editions of D&D could have done so much more with making the races matter. Actually this is true of most games... Although, you will want use one of the limited magic systems rather than Mage for most magic-based characters.

I've not read it myself, but I've heard that 13th Age (http://pelgranepress.com/site/?p=13316) uses many of the same ideas as 4e but makes it more narrative.

[Milodiah]

I'd recommend not bothering with converting existing characters, because it's going to be a headache. One person doesn't logic out their capabilities into the new character sheet as well as everyone else, they're unhappy, you're unhappy, everyone's unhappy. Get a new game with your new system. Try running a one-shot of Call of Cthulhu, because it's great and I totally don't just say that because I love Call of Cthulhu. See if people like the idea of doing a new game.

I've been in an RPG group that's gone from Call of Cthulhu/Delta Green, to Classic Traveler, to Old World of Darkness, to D&D 3.5 within a year. The switches are, in my opinion, much cleaner because we don't have to worry about all that. Sure, we may make some little in-jokes about how the chemical weapons disposal company our Delta Green agents are breaking into is named Pentex or whatever, but we've at no point tried to base anything off of anything else...because I feel like it'd just be hell to do it.

[Newoblivion]

Try running a one-shot of Call of Cthulhu, because it's great and I totally don't just say that because I love Call of Cthulhu. See if people like the idea of doing a new game.

I know what you're talking about :) the first tattoo I made was the Elder Sign.

I have both old (I think 2nd edition) and new 20d ones. Which is better?

[Nagash]

definitely would be world of darkness.

You can pretty easily change any race to match the system and when it comes to recreating clasess. if the wizard takes dots in magic he didnt have in D&D does that break the game? NO. If your fighter takes some social skills does that destroy the character? Damn I i hope not. Just give your marital characters extra creation points equal to the bonuses mages get as part of their template and things will generally balance out as long as you dont let the caster characters use the ambiguous nature of magic run roughshod over you.

For races you can either reduce the cost of favored attributes or just flat have them make a character and then drop one dot and raise another like like I do in changeling ( I like my my changelings more different then standard)

NWoD is a very simple mechanical system anyone can learn in 10 minutes (with storyteller help) with built in systems to support roleplaying. And combat is very dangerous. Which creates a very different feel most of the time.

OH an FATE is awful. Dont use fate. Worst system I have played in 4 decades of gaming. 75% of the mechanics seem to be based on fast talking the DM into to allowing your super generic "feat" to apply to the situation at hand for a slight bonus.

It took all the worst parts of theater of the mind gaming, codified them and then made them the focus of the entire game in a way so ambiguous that arguments are more likely to take up your gaming time then actually playing.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I don't understand why I shouldn't express my opinion. Your opinion is that Fate is good for everything. My opinion is the exact opposite. I think giving someone looking for a system a second opinion is only fair. It helps that I've played it and studied the core book since the last few discussions.
Do you have a problem with that?
I think it was mostly that your post was a bit dismissive, to the tune of "it's pointless to use Fate, just freeform instead".

Thanks a lot guys! I will check everything that was suggested here. Also please keep in mind that I need to keep the same characters and story, and not just to start a brand new game.

So can I translate (as close as posdible) races and class themes to those systems?
Okay, not so much on the Burning Wheel front, especially with the race/class combinations you mentioned. It's very strongly rooted in Tolkienesque fantasy, and going afield from that requires a bit of hacking. Granted, there's books in the game line that tell you how to homebrew and hack for the game, but that's something for when you have more experience playing it. Not something to jump right into.

Fate Core is your best bet here. While you can theoretically hack up the New World of Darkness system to make it D&Dish (and it is my favorite generic modern-day system), the game neither supports this out of the box nor gives you any advice on how to do it. You're on your own. Not recommended if you haven't played before.

[Yuki Akuma]

You should play Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm).

But then, I think everyone should play Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm).

[PrincessCupcake]

You should honestly take a look into Savage Worlds and its Fantasy supplement. I think it might fit well with what you are thinking of, and the spells/racial stuff are relatively simple to convert, while offering a little more freedom in creating characters.

Although those used to D&D's combat might be more than a little jarred by the switch. Combat is designed to be short, brutal, and best avoided if possible.

Pros-
-no leveling. purchase skills.
-wound/condition monitor instead of hp
-character generation is freeform, including race. Purchasing skills is easy as heck to explain.
-combat only takes up about 20 or 30% of your sheet and of play.
-conversion is possible, and not prohibitively difficult.
-rules enhance the roleplaying.

Cons-
-some spells and race abilities may require some DM improvisation.
-may take some time to explain how combat initiative works.

Noteworthy-
-not a d20 system (uses pretty much every other polyhedral die, plus a standard deck of cards)
-can work with or without miniatures.
-makes use of exploding successes.

[Garimeth]

@OP:

Check out 13th Age. Seriously, based off of some of your posts it is EXACTLY what you are looking for.

It was made by the lead designers or 3.5e and 4e, and moves the basic premise of a d20 game into a more free form system with player control and story based roleplaying. You can play the game with just the base book, my group has been doing so for 8 months. The two new supplements (basically PHB2 and MM) just came out. You will not have to homebrew anything, only convert which should prove quite easy - all the major PC classes and races from D&D are present in the two books, and it is very fun.


Here is the SRD so you can check it out before you buy:
www.13thagesrd.com/

Also here is a GiTP thread discussing it some.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?305084-General-Purpose-13th-Age-Thread

[CarpeGuitarrem]

13th Age is also a very fun pick; should've thought of that myself.

[Airk]

definitely would be world of darkness.

You can pretty easily change any race to match the system and when it comes to recreating clasess. if the wizard takes dots in magic he didnt have in D&D does that break the game? NO.

You are seriously proposing using Mage rules to emulate D&D style magic? Seriously? Or are you suggesting making up some sort of other magic system?


If your fighter takes some social skills does that destroy the character? Damn I i hope not. Just give your marital characters extra creation points equal to the bonuses mages get as part of their template and things will generally balance out as long as you dont let the caster characters use the ambiguous nature of magic run roughshod over you.

Yeah, let's inflict the most vague and painful magic system practically ever on the inexperienced DM.

Dude, are you like, a dummy account for Kalmageddon or something? :P

Seriously, if you can convert D&D to WoD, you can convert it to nearly any system with about the same (huge) amount of work.

[Kalmageddon]

You are seriously proposing using Mage rules to emulate D&D style magic? Seriously? Or are you suggesting making up some sort of other magic system?



Yeah, let's inflict the most vague and painful magic system practically ever on the inexperienced DM.

Dude, are you like, a dummy account for Kalmageddon or something? :P

Seriously, if you can convert D&D to WoD, you can convert it to nearly any system with about the same (huge) amount of work.

How about you cut it out? I don't appreciate when people take shots at me.
Learn to respect other people's opinions.

[Airk]

How about you cut it out? I don't appreciate when people take shots at me.
Learn to respect other people's opinions.

I'm not "taking shots at you". I'm pointing out that he's parroting you.

[Newoblivion]

Yeah, let's inflict the most vague and painful magic system practically ever on the inexperienced DM.


I am playing roleplaying games for almost 25 years, I am not sure "inexperienced" is the correct word here. I just don't know all the game systems in existence so I went to the place I knew I will find knowledgeable people. (I played MtA, for almost two years :smallsmile: )

And there's no reason to argue here. I respect the opinions of everyone here, and if someone think that a system is fun, or can aid my current dilemma, then I believe him. People won't recommend something they didn't had fun with (I hope :smalltongue: ).

[Garimeth]

I am playing roleplaying games for almost 25 years, I am not sure "inexperienced" is the correct word here. I just don't know all the game systems in existence so I went to the place I knew I will find knowledgeable people. (I played MtA, for almost two years :smallsmile: )

And there's no reason to argue here. I respect the opinions of everyone here, and if someone think that a system is fun, or can aid my current dilemma, then I believe him. People won't recommend something they didn't had fun with (I hope :smalltongue: ).

I'm curious to see what you think when you check out 13th Age, because I honestly think its just what you're looking for.

[kyoryu]

Fate Core seems like a reasonable system for your needs (it's not the perfect system for everything, of course). There are a few caveats:

1) Switching from D&D to Fate can involve a bit of "unlearning"

2) Switching characters (specifically healers) is often not as easy as one might think

Burning Wheel is potentially another solution, though I found the crunch levels a bit off-putting - I could never personally get the system to "come together".

Cortex+ is not an unreasonable choice, either.

From what I've seen 13th Age might be a good choice as well, as it comes from a stronger D&D heritage than the others.

[Airk]

I am playing roleplaying games for almost 25 years, I am not sure "inexperienced" is the correct word here. I just don't know all the game systems in existence so I went to the place I knew I will find knowledgeable people. (I played MtA, for almost two years :smallsmile: )


Sorry, not sure where I got that impression from.

But I still view Mage as having a magic system that is basically "Wave your hands and ask the GM if it works because the rules do jack." ;P

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Burning Wheel is potentially another solution, though I found the crunch levels a bit off-putting - I could never personally get the system to "come together".

I suspect it probably wouldn't be a good fit for the style of campaign that's currently in progress, either. I mean, I could do some really interesting stuff with genasi and tieflings and the like as new stocks, but that would be way too much work.

[horngeek]

Well, you could always try Exa-

*rereads OP*

Aw.

More seriously, FATE is ridiculously flexible. Take a look at DFRPG, but Core could also achieve what you're looking for- various Aspects can be used to represent race-specific traits.

[Newoblivion]

I'm curious to see what you think when you check out 13th Age, because I honestly think its just what you're looking for.

I looked it up, and it looks quite cool. I kinda wish I saw it before we started 4e. But I really don't like hp. I want wounds to be more meaningful. And hp doesn't feel dramatic enough. :smallfrown:

[horngeek]

I looked it up, and it looks quite cool. I kinda wish I saw it before we started 4e. But I really don't like hp. I want wounds to be more meaningful. And hp doesn't feel dramatic enough. :smallfrown:

Is it the lack of any wound penalties that you don't like about hp?

[Newoblivion]

Is it the lack of any wound penalties that you don't like about hp?

I saw that there're wound penalties, but only after you drop to 0 hp, and it only affects your total hp, not your actions. Legend of The Fire Rings had a combo of hp and status monitor which was quite cool.

Edit: I thought you were talking about 13th age. Yeah, It doesn't matter if you have 1 hp or 100. I don't like it, if a red dragon breath fire on you, and you survive, you can attack him normally on the next turn, even though your skin is melting and you suffer 3rd degree burns. More over, on 4e you wake up the next morning and you are healed up, like the dragon was just a dream.

[Nagash]

You are seriously proposing using Mage rules to emulate D&D style magic? Seriously? Or are you suggesting making up some sort of other magic system?


Yeah, let's inflict the most vague and painful magic system practically ever on the inexperienced DM.

the mage magic system works perfectly fine, if anything the lower dots are less powerful then a lot of D&D magic. The first couple are really more about investigating tools then anything else. Its not till you hit 4 dots that it gets overpowered and its still easy to manage if you put a little effort into it.




Seriously, if you can convert D&D to WoD, you can convert it to nearly any system with about the same (huge) amount of work.

Huge amount of work? You can make virtually any non mage character in WoD in 10 minutes if your halfway familair with the system. And 20 minutes if your not.

What exactly do you think would be so difficult? I'd be happy to explain how to do whatever it is quickly and easily.


Sorry, not sure where I got that impression from.

But I still view Mage as having a magic system that is basically "Wave your hands and ask the GM if it works because the rules do jack." ;P

ahh, so you know nothing about the rules. I can see the problem. Thats not at all how it is.

They also have a less powerful and more defined magic system in the 2nd sight book thats for hedgewizards and psychics. That would work fine for D&D style magic for the most part.

Oh and OP, you could also go with true20. Its a PDF download with free quickstart rules on the website that give you a good idea of the game. Its a D20 system so conversion will also be absurdly easy and its got a wound track instead of HP. I've enjoyed it the couple times we played. It doesnt handle really high level combat well but it sounds like thats not much of a concern for you.

[Thrawn4]

Conversion is always a lot of work. Why don't you just go the easy way and convert it to another system that you know and like? WOD sounds reasonable to me in this case.

[Garimeth]

I looked it up, and it looks quite cool. I kinda wish I saw it before we started 4e. But I really don't like hp. I want wounds to be more meaningful. And hp doesn't feel dramatic enough. :smallfrown:

Yeah I agree with you there, I actually housebrewed rules for wounds. The closest thing stock, is that there is a fair amount of abilities or effects that are conditional on being staggered (bloodied). The rules that I home brewed also come into effect at 0 HP, but last until the next full heal-up, and in some cases are permanent. I let the player describe their wound and how it relates to the mechanism/location of injury, and then I just veto if I think its too puny. So far they have been far more creative than I when it comes to their wounds.

I phrase it as you aren't actually "hit" until you are staggered. Al the rest of that is endurance, will to fight, etc. When you cross that staggered threshhold, now the fight is lethal. One thing I have noticed about 13th Age, is it is not very lethal. Death saves are a decent thing to succeed at etc. At first I did not like that, now I do. Because now I have zero compunctions about completely wrecking the party.

0 HP is unconcious? Ok, I know a guy who has been shot in the chest from 3 feet away by an unexploded RPG. Knocked him into a wall, broke a few ribs, and knocked him out for about 30-60 seconds, then he got up and kept clearing the building. That's what just happened to you. The dragon made a claw attack, you flew like a rag doll, and got knocked unconcious. You stabilized, and now your back in the fight. But there's penalties for that, what are they?

So I tell them it needs to be at least the equivalent of a -2 to a base stat, a -1 to a composite stat, or a -1 or 2 to certain types of die rolls.

For me there is a certain freedom in knowing that I don't have to pull punches because they have a high survival rate, not that I am a killer DM, or even that I won't kill players, but it gives me a lot of cushion.


Anyway, all that aside, it seems like if that's the only thing you don't like about it, you may want to check it out (my selling point on the current game would be its straightforward conversion process, plus awesome storytelling tools.) but if not this game then another. I'm trying to pass this system on to as many people as I can to support the devs because this is honestly my favorite system at the moment. In the interest of fairness, FATE and Savage Worlds both sound cool too, but I feel that those would be better to use when starting a new campaign - 13th Age requires far less of a transition. Just decide who are the icons in your setting and tell them to roll their characters. Minimal fuss.

I sound like a salesman.

[rainwise]

I think I have something that might be perfect for you.

It's a little rough around the edges, but it's called Adventures in the Realm (http://www.rpgsimple.com), and sort of its whole thing is simplicity and flexibility which, it seems, is exactly what you're looking for.

It has a system for creating new races and having them not be overpowerd or underpowered if that's what you want.

It has ten or fifteen or something classes, but you can mix and match to make others. (EG warrior+cleric=paladin)

The amount of magic spells it has is nuts, so if your magic characters want to keep the EXACT SAME spells, they might well be able to in the Adventures in the Realm system.

The mechanics of the game, especially the magic spells and alchemy, are much more geared towards a problem-solving and story-playing experience than a hack-n-slash dungeon crawl

Hope it helps

[Bronk]

Well, devil's advocate here, if you're looking for a fantasy game that plays like Shadowrun . . . you can always give Earthdawn a try. It's, theorectically, the same universe as shadowrun, just the last time that magic waxed and became powerful. It's a very similar system, I'm told, and quite fun.

No, I haven't played it myself, but I've been told good things about it if you don't like the D&D style level/class/race setup.

Earthdawn can be totally fun, but it does have levels, some pretty crazy rules and dice learning curves, and stringent classes.

Given enough points, you could use GURPS to remake your characters in any new setting, but then you'd be locked into another set of rules, unless you just used it as a way to keep track of what everyone can generally do.

I'd actually suggest BESM, it's sort of a more forgiving GURPS that you can use to make whatever without a lot of hassle.