Does a Favored Enemy know he is one?

[heavyfuel]

I'm not asking this on the RAW Q&A thread mostly because I don't want a strict RAW answer to this, but does a Favored Enemy knows that he is a FE?

Say I'm a Ranger with Arcanist FE. Will a Wizard realize that I'm hitting him harder than I'm supposed to?

[Tvtyrant]

I think so. Remember that the game is supposed to be a metaphor for RT, so I think the Ranger would suddenly slice at their hands when they are casting and aim for the holes in their invisible magical defenses. The caster would notice how much expertise the Ranger had in combating casters, even if they did not know it was FE precisely.

[heavyfuel]

I think so. Remember that the game is supposed to be a metaphor for RT, so I think the Ranger would suddenly slice at their hands when they are casting and aim for the holes in their invisible magical defenses. The caster would notice how much expertise the Ranger had in combating casters, even if they did not know it was FE precisely.

Fair enough mate. Thanks!

[Spore]

Honestly no. There are so many things improving to-hit and damage amongst other things that a Wizard would never see ingame that "this guy gets +6 on all arcane spellcasters". He would however know that this guy is a reknown hunter of arcanists. This is the type of fact that a successful Know (Local) check would give you about an (N)PC.

This is Magekill McTear-their-robes. He is known for utterly destroying arcanists. Only last week he has supposedly eaten the Archmage of Proxyville.

It's not a matter of where his damage and abilities come from but a matter of how his environment perceives him. There are stories about NPCs and PCs alike going around in town. And if you are a silent (unknown) assassin type who so happens to have a couple of levels in ranger your caster isn't blurting out: "Protect me from this guy! He has me as a favored enemy." It's rather "Guys this assassin tries to use my spleen as a xylophone. GET. HIM. AWAY."

[Psyren]

I'm not asking this on the RAW Q&A thread mostly because I don't want a strict RAW answer to this, but does a Favored Enemy knows that he is a FE?

Say I'm a Ranger with Arcanist FE. Will a Wizard realize that I'm hitting him harder than I'm supposed to?

This begs a rather obvious question - how would he know how hard you're "supposed to" be hitting him, such that he would know that you're hitting harder than that?

[heavyfuel]

snip

Well, now I'm torn again.

At first (before this thread) I was thinking along the same lines Tvtyrant but I wanted to get others opinions on the fact. It seems likely that if an Orc sees a guy fighting a Hobgoblin he can estimate his skill level, and the when the same guy with FE (Orc) comes to fight the Orc that was watching, the orc will notice additional expertise.

Seems right, no?

[Tvtyrant]

This begs a rather obvious question - how would he know how hard you're "supposed to" be hitting him, such that he would know that you're hitting harder than that?

But this is assuming that all bonuses have the game in-game approach because they have the same out of game effect. A +1 sword and Weapon Focus are almost identical out of game for effect, but in-game one is from a magic weapon (which I always fluff as being ludicrously hard and sharp) while the other is the pure skill of the fighter.

A favored enemy fluffwise allows you to do extra damage because you know more about the opponent, and since casters do not have a shared anatomy it is going to be based on how casting works. Knowing that force spells have little openings, or the movements of a caster so you can most effectively stab them during casting.

[Psyren]

But this is assuming that all bonuses have the game in-game approach because they have the same out of game effect. A +1 sword and Weapon Focus are almost identical out of game for effect, but in-game one is from a magic weapon (which I always fluff as being ludicrously hard and sharp) while the other is the pure skill of the fighter.

A favored enemy fluffwise allows you to do extra damage because you know more about the opponent, and since casters do not have a shared anatomy it is going to be based on how casting works. Knowing that force spells have little openings, or the movements of a caster so you can most effectively stab them during casting.

That's fine but it doesn't really answer the question. How is the caster going to know that you were specially trained to fight casters? You could be landing more telling blows more often simply due to being fast, strong, lucky, angry or any number of other reasons. It's not like you're yelling "Favored Enemy Strike!" every time you stab.

(They might not even see you either - favored enemy works on ranged attacks too.)

[Spore]

Interesting approach but this doesn't necessarily mean they have trained to kill wizards. Maybe he is a fighter of a far higher skill level or strength than previously anticipated. Keep in mind that a fighter (without Arcane Eye or closer examination of the items they're wielding) can wear almost anything. Maybe he hits so well because he is a Fighter 10 instead of Ranger 7 and maybe his damage is so insane because he chose weapon specialization instead of applying FE.

My DM has allowed us BAB + d20 rolls vs. 10+enemy BAB to let martial classes check on the skill of other martials. This means however that a wizard does not know how to categorize a full BAB class. And in my books that's only logical. Wizards have the same BAB progression as a commoner. Meaning they don't train in it.

Damage is an abstract concept in itself (since you fight with 1 HP the same as with all HP).

[Anlashok]

It doesn't help that FE is an abstraction that exists beyond fluff.

I mean sure "trained to fight casters" makes sense. But if that wizard just picks up a sword and stops casting spells you don't suddenly lose your FE. Or if you're FE:Orc and end up in a duel with a LG orc cleric raised by humans in a big city you don't suddenly lose your bonus because he doesn't fight like the tribals orcs you've trained against.

I'd just let the player handle portraying it (or not) and not have the NPC know one way or the other.

[Tvtyrant]

That's fine but it doesn't really answer the question. How is the caster going to know that you were specially trained to fight casters? You could be landing more telling blows more often simply due to being fast, strong, lucky, angry or any number of other reasons. It's not like you're yelling "Favored Enemy Strike!" every time you stab.

(They might not even see you either - favored enemy works on ranged attacks too.)

But presumably you know the weak points in your own style to a greater or lesser degree. If your mage armor has a hole just below the arm pit and each arrow is perfectly fire into it you know the enemy knows a lot about you and is trained in killing casters. As I said before, it may not be FE exactly, but abilities like Knowledge Devotion are going to be the same.

I imagine a +5 arrow simply shears through the armor from its impossible molecule thick magic edge, and the mage could make a check to see what it is based on its performance.

[Drelua]

The knowledge (local) check is a good approach to this, though that would of course depend on the character. I've seen Rangers played as hating a certain group, having experience fighting them, or just having academic knowledge of that race, their anatomy, and how they fight. For hatred, I might allow a sense motive check to notice the way that Ranger's looking at you like you owe him money. For the other two, it would be harder to know, as there's any number of things that can give a bonus to attack or damage, as has been pointed out. I'm not sure what I'd do in those situations, this is an interesting question. I'd never thought about it before.

[Psyren]

But presumably you know the weak points in your own style to a greater or lesser degree. If your mage armor has a hole just below the arm pit and each arrow is perfectly fire into it you know the enemy knows a lot about you and is trained in killing casters.

Or he's just a good shot. Again, how would you know the difference? Especially since he gets the bonus whether you're using Mage Armor, Shield, Alter Self into a Troglodyte, Transformation or any number of other buffs and even combined buffs.


As I said before, it may not be FE exactly, but abilities like Knowledge Devotion are going to be the same.

Which undermines the point further - how do you know it's FE and not KD, or Prayer, or Offensive Precognition, or just plain having a higher Dex etc.

[Chronos]

That means that it's knowable, but it doesn't mean that the wizard will know it. He's probably not paying attention to exactly where the blows are aimed, just whether they hit him or not. He's got better things to concentrate on. Things might be different, though, if the target is a fighter who's made extensive study of different sorts of combat styles.

[Vaz]

Because said ranger is dropping orcs faster than they would normally? 2 damage is a lot at low levels, and with 3 attacks at level 1, 6 damage is pretty much ensuring a kill against even tough foes. A 2nd level orc warrior with average stats (nonelite array) is average 14 hp. TWF ranger with short swords is dealing 3.5 damahe + strength per attack. A couple of rounds should be what it would take to drop one. A ranger would be able to drop that.

That is metagame knowledge, but essentially, anyone paying attention to the ranger would recognise that the orcs are dropping surprisingly quickly around him. The concept of xth level may break the 4th wall, but at the least the orcs would see the ease with they are being killed by him. They won't know that it's 'favoured enemy' but a knowledge of the targets weak points would reault in a refluffing of the attack, being able to angle the blow between the ribs of the orc, while one who uses weapon focus might be abke to roll his way past an opponents guard, while one with a massove strength just batters past an enemies defences.

When it comes to tracking the FE, they might realise that when the orc is with them, they are being located far more easily than before. This is either because the party has become much better at tracking, or the new orc is making it easier to be located. Either way, they can either like it or lump it, getting rid of the orc, or possibly hiring more 'heavies' to get rid of them.

At later levels, the bonus isn't that much (although is the equivalent of having an ability score 20 higher than before, or 10 additonal ranks, the problem being it doesn't scale well enough), but if you think that the Ranger 20 can get a Track check of +35 (14 wis), which is enough to locate a level 7ish ninja making an effort to hide her tracks without even trying (and then make a hat out of her intestines when he catches up).

[Psyren]

Because said ranger is dropping orcs faster than they would normally?

What is the "normal speed" for dropping orcs? :smalltongue: That's the question I keep coming back to. Especially since a statistic like kill speed is going to be highly dependent on the individual's level, feats, gear, buffs, and even environment.

Statting up a bunch of orcs with the elite array for some kind of baseline isn't going to help, because (a) in-universe, everyone's stats are random/rolled anyway and (b) that knowledge is metagame besides.

[PaucaTerrorem]

If someone is able to observe the Ranger in different battles then sure, you could guess what his FE is. But in the heat of battle with the Ranger, I'd give them a reeeeeealy high DC INT check to figure it out.

[Morty]

As usual, there's no single answer to this question. The enemy might notice your character be more effective against people like them than against others, if they have time to observe you. But if the wizard has never met your ranger before, it's unlikely they'll pick up on their training against magic-users. And of course they might find out in another way. So, unsurprisingly, the answer is "sometimes yes, sometimes no". But in the specific case of a wizard who just met your ranger realizing that you're attacking him with particular efficiency, I'd say "no".

[Kaeso]

I'm not asking this on the RAW Q&A thread mostly because I don't want a strict RAW answer to this, but does a Favored Enemy knows that he is a FE?

Say I'm a Ranger with Arcanist FE. Will a Wizard realize that I'm hitting him harder than I'm supposed to?

Wizards don't have high INT scores for nothing. It's fair to assume they could deduce that this guy has some specialized knowledge that allows him to fight casters more efficiently.

[Psyren]

Wizards don't have high INT scores for nothing. It's fair to assume they could deduce that this guy has some specialized knowledge that allows him to fight casters more efficiently.

Honestly, I've always seen this as a real cop-out argument. High Int does not make you omniscient, particularly about fields you have never studied. Neil de Grasse Tyson is an extremely intelligent man, but that doesn't mean he can recognize which kung fu or fencing form you're using just by watching it.

Intelligence represents your capacity for knowledge moreso than your actual studies or training. Even a dragon or fiend with Int 40 can't attempt a knowledge check in a field he is not trained in, if the DC is higher than 10 (i.e. not common knowledge.)

[Kaeso]

Honestly, I've always seen this as a real cop-out argument. High Int does not make you omniscient, particularly about fields you have never studied. Neil de Grasse Tyson is an extremely intelligent man, but that doesn't mean he can recognize which kung fu or fencing form you're using just by watching it.

Intelligence represents your capacity for knowledge moreso than your actual studies or training. Even a dragon or fiend with Int 40 can't attempt a knowledge check in a field he is not trained in, if the DC is higher than 10 (i.e. not common knowledge.)

I referred to neither omniscience nor knowing something you're not trained in. I'm merely saying that a highly intelligent person (and when compared to the real world, 18 INT makes you a literal supergenius IIRC) should recognize it when someone uses specialized techniques that specifically target his weaknesses. A wizard whould know the difference between a regular beatstick and one that somehow knows magic enough to maximize his effectiveness against casters.

[VoxRationis]

But the thing is that there are so many ways to improve your effectiveness, and so few distinguishing characteristics between them. Most attack or damage bonuses boil down to "you swing the weapon harder" or "you aim for vulnerable parts." Unless the wizard had previously observed the character in question fighting a non-caster, I'd say they definitely shouldn't know.

[Psyren]

I referred to neither omniscience nor knowing something you're not trained in. I'm merely saying that a highly intelligent person (and when compared to the real world, 18 INT makes you a literal supergenius IIRC) should recognize it when someone uses specialized techniques that specifically target his weaknesses. A wizard whould know the difference between a regular beatstick and one that somehow knows magic enough to maximize his effectiveness against casters.

My point is that merely being a "supergenius" does not necessarily give you the capability to recognize martial subtleties like this. Furthermore, someone raised the issue above that the Ranger would get this bonus even if the wizard wasn't casting anything and had no buffs active, so you can't always fluff it as "knowing magic enough" either.


But the thing is that there are so many ways to improve your effectiveness, and so few distinguishing characteristics between them. Most attack or damage bonuses boil down to "you swing the weapon harder" or "you aim for vulnerable parts." Unless the wizard had previously observed the character in question fighting a non-caster, I'd say they definitely shouldn't know.

+1

[Fax Celestis]

Here's a solution. Make it a Martial Lore check to identify the source of a damage or attack bonus. Because that skill needs some love.

[Snails]

There is no In Rules answer to how to figure out an enemy's bonuses.

But the game is more fun if this information is hinted/revealed.

Do we need a better answer than that?

[Dalebert]

Whether someone simply recognizes and knows about something falls pretty squarely under knowledge skills. Like Psyren said, INT alone doesn't give you rolls in knowledge skills you don't have and this clearly falls outside of "common knowledge". A wizard could certainly choose to develop an academic knowledge of certain techniques without actually being physically skilled in them but it's still a knowledge skill, and frankly, most won't. It's a pretty esoteric choice. Fax Celestis mentioned Martial Lore which seems like a good one to represent that.

When people talk about how he's finding weaknesses, isn't that also like a rogue's sneak attack? What about weapon focus? What about a magic weapon that has a special bonus against casters? It's just not the kind of thing an academic would typically be able to recognize in the middle of combat. Wizards in general are relatively stupid when it comes to combat techniques. It's one area where a fighter or ranger or just about any other class is smarter than they.

[Barstro]

Whether someone simply recognizes and knows about something falls pretty squarely under knowledge skills....

When people talk about how he's finding weaknesses, isn't that also like a rogue's sneak attack? What about weapon focus? What about a magic weapon that has a special bonus against casters? It's just not the kind of thing an academic would typically be able to recognize in the middle of combat. Wizards in general are relatively stupid when it comes to combat techniques. It's one area where a fighter or ranger or just about any other class is smarter than they.

Statistically, it will take quite a while for the pincushion to know if he's getting hit more because the Ranger is getting lucky with him and/or in a slump against others, or if it is because of Favored Enemy. Even with metagaming, how do you know if the roll was a 19 or a 13+6?

But a DM with good storytelling might bother to give some clues;
The sword slices right through the half-orc's "Kronk's Fountain Artery" (Does that sound like an artery that only a half-orc would have, and not likely to be hit accidentally?)
Just before you twist your arm in the final somatic element of that spell, an arrow pierces your wrist.
The arrow burns as if covered in acid (more for Bane, but whatever).
His eyes darken when he sees you, and he casually slices deeply into your leg.
Or, if your character has no Knowledge or Perception "Yeah, he's going to town on you, wuss".

[holywhippet]

From a roleplaying point of view, shouldn't the ranger's actions give the target fair hint? Think of it like this from a wizard's POV:

"The person before you eyes you over taking in your staff, your spell component pouch and the wands you have tucked into your belt. His gaze becomes angrier as he sees each item. With a snarl of 'damn spell casters, I'll kill the lot of you', he launches his attack."

The target should have some idea that the person attacking them has a particular hatred of their kind.

[Fax Celestis]

Where does it say "unable to maintain poker face" in the Favored Enemy description?

[holywhippet]

Where does it say "unable to maintain poker face" in the Favored Enemy description?

In that case wouldn't it come down to a sense motive check from the target vs. a bluff check (if you are trying to hide it) from the attacker?

[Drelua]

In that case wouldn't it come down to a sense motive check from the target vs. a bluff check (if you are trying to hide it) from the attacker?

Well, that goes back to what I suggested upthread; something along those lines could work in the case of a Ranger who derives his FE bonuses from hatred, but that's just one of many possible explanations, and one that doesn't make a lot of sense at that. As an example, I have a Pathfinder Society Ranger who started with FE: Goblinoid, then, when I realized that didn't come up very often in the higher levels and got to Ranger 5, I chose Undead and immediately pushed that bonus up to +4. Does this mean that, right as I leveled, I suddenly developed a deep, overwhelming hatred twice as strong as that which I've always had for goblins? That wouldn't make much sense. Of course, this is all assuming that racism makes you better at fighting a certain group, which just isn't true.

[yoshi67]

I think it comes down to how you use FE and how renowned you are. My ranger has goblinoids as FE, but in a group fight against orcs where everyone is dropping enemies it would be almost impossible to tell. However, if you have Arcanists as FE and every encounter with a sorcerer you look to the group and say "I'll take the magical one", then proceed to focus only on him until he's dead, it would stand to reason that you might earn a reputation for being particularly skilled and focused at killing casters.

[PersonMan]

There is no In Rules answer to how to figure out an enemy's bonuses.

But the game is more fun if this information is hinted/revealed.

Do we need a better answer than that?

Hinted? I can see that.

But I would argue the opposite, that saying "oh yeah this guy has Favored Enemy (Whatever You Are In This Example)" does nothing for the game or even reduces my enjoyment of it, depending on how it's done. Especially if I'm the Ranger and people keep somehow knowing my class features (especially if this leads to more such things that push classes into a more in-game role than the metagame one I prefer them in).

[Dalebert]

However, if you have Arcanists as FE and every encounter with a sorcerer you look to the group and say "I'll take the magical one", then proceed to focus only on him until he's dead, it would stand to reason that you might earn a reputation for being particularly skilled and focused at killing casters.

Well, if you're also leaving a lot of witness around, assuming there even are any survivors amongst your opponents.