Tarquin and the bard class

[Nalix]

What would the Bard class look like if Tarquin had designed it?
Mostly, I think of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) when I have that question in mind.

I apologize if someone has thought of this before (if so, direct me to that thread, I didn't find one with when I searched for it), but when the thought crossed my mind I decided to ask and see what others thought.

I think Tarquin would make bards a bit like wizards who specialize in manipulating the fabric of plot (instead of time and space, or something V would say). I imagine them being Obi-Wan-like prophets (strike me down and... you know the rest). Their prophecies always come true but may be their undoing through being poorly worded. They may even tell stories in taverns, but the story telling would be a mask for spells with a long casting time.

Thoughts?

[Leviting]

First of all, something tells me that Tarquin is lawful. Second, I don't think Tarquin would sing. Ever. Lastly, he says Bards are underpowered.

[mikeejimbo]

I think his point is that in a universe that operates by the Laws of Narrative Causality, Bards should be better than Batman wizards. A Batman wizard prepares for anything that is likely to happen. But the bards know that the million-to-one chances crop up 9 times out of 10.

[Nalix]

Naturally. I'm not saying that Tarquin ever wanted to be a bard, much less sing. So if he were to have designed a bard-like class, a class that has what he perceives as the bard's strengths worthy of ruling the cosmos, what would that class look like?

It's not a wizard, who manipulates physics and natural laws, it's something that controls the forces of plot, almost like a mini-DM. What would that class look like?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That would be an interesting concept. If Tarquin has designed the Bard class, it would probably have a greater focus on storytelling and storytelling concepts than on singing and performing. Bards would probably gain spells that allow them to manipulate fate and have a bunch of class abilities that allow them to guess what will happen based on Narrative Causality.

[Nilehus]

Isn't there a class that controls/manipulates Fate? I imagine that Tarquin would make the Bard class a juiced-up version of that.

[Reathin]

First of all, something tells me that Tarquin is lawful. Second, I don't think Tarquin would sing. Ever. Lastly, he says Bards are underpowered.

1. So, yes, he'd undo that restriction, for starts.
2. Doesn't have to, actually. Perform(Oratory) for inspiring speeches works just as well.
3. He says this because of their current circumstances, not their actual abilities. He believes (with no small amount of accuracy) that Genre Savey can provide power. He overestimates it, but he's not totally wrong. He's claimed bewilderment that they're not out there using their gifts to rule the cosmos.


Anyway, if Tarquin was in charge of the bards, I suspect the end result would like like some hybrid of Divination specialist and Fatespinner, with a touch of enchantment to fill in the gaps: understands the flow of the moment, odds, personalities, and can give things a push in the right direction with a "behind the scenes" style. Recognizing individuals' place in the narrative perhaps, see where things are going if left alone (not the "far sight" of a true seer, more like someone who intuitively understands the big picture). Some spells (charisma based, likely) to augment, degrade and persuade, much like bards do in their current existence. Higher level abilites become a bit more about forcing events into the right place, empowering those who play their part as he sees it and punishing those who start to *shuder* improvise.

It would be a fairly meta-class, and it would only really work in places like the Order's universe where narrative causality can be somewhat relied on, but I kinda like the idea.

[breathandpaper]

So... Am I the only one who can picture Tarquin singing?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So... Am I the only one who can picture Tarquin singing?

I can't, that's for certain. I doubt you are the only one, though. :smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

I can't, that's for certain. I doubt you are the only one, though. :smalltongue:

I just posted a pet theory about how he may have used to be a bard. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17917423&postcount=12)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I just posted a pet theory about how he may have used to be a bard. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17917423&postcount=12)

I saw that. I think that it actually makes quite a bit of sense (especially compared with the average hypothesis on these forums). Of course, being a bard doesn't require him to sing.

[Lord Raziere]

The Bard, As Designed By Tarquin:

Alignment: Always Lawful. It takes a great deal of mathematical and mental ingenuity to compose and perform music, which needs a highly ordered mind
Attributes: Intelligence, Charisma, Wisdom, for reasons stated above.
Skills: All of Them! Bards are the ultimate jack of all trades after all
Armor: All of Them! Bards are the ultimate jack of all trades after all
Weapons: All of Them! Bards are the ultimate jack of all trades after all

Genre Savvy:
The Bard can always predict the next dramatic twist or improbable occurrence that will come next without fail.

Trope Shaping:
Various abilities in which the Bard acts out a certain trope or cliche to make it apply to the situation for some effect or other
Example: The Bard points and shouts "behind you!" at the wizard and thus invoking the tired cliche of the oldest trick in the book, with them either falling for it, or not believing it and thus snarking "yea right" but this causes some to actually be behind them and cause great damage to the wizard at no save.

Genre Shift:
The Bard can once per day shift the genre of the story to a more favorable one.
Example: changing a horror story where a Bard is facing a seemingly unstoppable dark wizard to a shonen story where the bard overcomes and defeats the wizard in a single episode while shouting out "Who The Abyss Do You Think I Am!?"

Reset Button:
The Bard, as a last resort can press the Reset Button to return everything to the status quo just when all hope seems lost once per day.

Deus Ex Machina:
The Bard can outright introduce a new element into the story that wasn't there before to influence the outcome of events in a completely unexpected and unforetold way.

20th level:
Writer Ascendancy:
The Bard ascends to Writer-hood becoming greater than all the gods, gaining the ability to rewrite the universe however they please.

so everyone, great class or best class? :smalltongue:

[Falka]

Actually I think that Tarquin refers to their potential as protagonists of the story getting wasted as most Bards act as a sidekick / comic relief character, "spending their time singing in taverns". Tarquin loves dramatic cheese and that's why he thinks that Bards are underpowered - they are supposed to be incredibly cheesy and should put those abilities into use.

But he's also evil and he must abhor the thought of knowing that so many Bards want to play as a goofey hero when they have the tools to be "oh so much more".

It's not that they need any particular change (well, 5e Bard I'm sure that fits well with Tarquin's idea and he 'could' be a College of Valor Bard himself, actually), more than a change of focus.

I mean, he is a fighter, but at the same time, he's very intelligent and has everything figured out from the start. He hardly fits your stereotypical fighter in the first place, so... You don't really need to tailor a class to make it work your way, just give it a particular flair.

[Rodin]

I think Tarquin came to the conclusion that Bards are underpowered by reverse logic. He doesn't believe that Bards won't take over the world, but rather believes they can't. Since Genre Savvy is so incredibly powerful in his eyes, that must be the class itself is the absolute pits to balance them out. And since Bards can't even manage to get leading roles, they must be utterly abysmal at life in general. He can't imagine anyone actually wanting to play a supporting role.

Hence why Tarquin isn't a Bard - he figures by being Genre Savvy AND not a Bard, he's able to manipulate the world as he sees fit without the crippling disability of a horrible class.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Bard, As Designed By Tarquin:

Alignment: Always Lawful. It takes a great deal of mathematical and mental ingenuity to compose and perform music, which needs a highly ordered mind
Attributes: Intelligence, Charisma, Wisdom, for reasons stated above.
Skills: All of Them! Bards are the ultimate jack of all trades after all
Armor: All of Them! Bards are the ultimate jack of all trades after all
Weapons: All of Them! Bards are the ultimate jack of all trades after all

Genre Savvy:
The Bard can always predict the next dramatic twist or improbable occurrence that will come next without fail.

Trope Shaping:
Various abilities in which the Bard acts out a certain trope or cliche to make it apply to the situation for some effect or other
Example: The Bard points and shouts "behind you!" at the wizard and thus invoking the tired cliche of the oldest trick in the book, with them either falling for it, or not believing it and thus snarking "yea right" but this causes some to actually be behind them and cause great damage to the wizard at no save.

Genre Shift:
The Bard can once per day shift the genre of the story to a more favorable one.
Example: changing a horror story where a Bard is facing a seemingly unstoppable dark wizard to a shonen story where the bard overcomes and defeats the wizard in a single episode while shouting out "Who The Abyss Do You Think I Am!?"

Reset Button:
The Bard, as a last resort can press the Reset Button to return everything to the status quo just when all hope seems lost once per day.

Deus Ex Machina:
The Bard can outright introduce a new element into the story that wasn't there before to influence the outcome of events in a completely unexpected and unforetold way.

20th level:
Writer Ascendancy:
The Bard ascends to Writer-hood becoming greater than all the gods, gaining the ability to rewrite the universe however they please.

so everyone, great class or best class? :smalltongue:

I like it. Do they still get spells?

[Socksy]

Now I'm imagining Tarquin trying to DM, having homebrewed a "more accurate"(to his ideals) Bard class.

I have a feeling player agency would be slowly crushed. Probably not to SUE files levels... hopefully.

[Nalix]

I would hesitate to play in a game DMed by Tarquin, though refusing to play could well be worse. I would imagine that this class would also have some railroading related abilities. Most of the abilities that Lord Raziere mentioned sound pretty high level. It would be interesting to see what other classes looked like in a game that meta.

[Zarzar]

I've always assumed that Tarquin's hatred of the Bard class had some kind of direct correlation to someone Tarquin knew who was a bard. This bard, despite being genre-savvy, didn't exploit the dramatopoly rules of the Stickverse, and Tarquin hated him/her for it. While I'd like to think it was his father, I'd put a hefty wager it was his mother, who was a chaotic good bard. Maybe some early escapades with a Young Tarquin trying to bait his mother into defeating something due to being genre-savvy, and it never goes to plan.

It kinda fits, thematically. Tarquin, like most men, find a woman like his mother and marries her (Elan's Mom). However, due to his deep-seated (and irrational) hatred of chaotic good women due to his mother, treats her like garbage and tries to rule over everything around him in a genre-savvy Lawful Evil style. Obviously she doesn't understand why he's such a jerk (she might know Tarquin's mother and not understand why he's like this), and fights tooth and nail to not let Tarquin take both kids in the divorce. Tarquin legitimately gives up because it's another battle against Chaotic Good in his family that he can't win.

Furthermore, Tarquin is so drawn to defeating something Chaotic Good in his life that when his son, a Chaotic Good Bard, comes to town, everything falls into place. The dramatic life of Tarquin, whose evil has been built around being the exact opposite of those close to him, will be brought full circle as the thing that he blames for his life can be defeated for once. Or at very worst, the cycle will be complete and he will be blameless; in his eyes, it wasn't his fault, it was all those Chaotic Good people that made him the way he is.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So... Am I the only one who can picture Tarquin singing?

I always heard his voice as Rick Moranis (as Dark Helmet while helmeted up), so given that Little Shop of Horrors is one of my favorite musicals, no.

Anyway, here's Tarquin's deal: he recognizes on one level or another that the universe he exists in is a story, and he believes that by playing to and manipulating narrative convention, he can exert control over that universe. Being Tarquin, he's such a megalomaniac that he doesn't understand that other people don't want to control the universe, and so does not understand why bards "waste" their talents like they do. It's less to do with the class and more to do with his inability to empathize with the people who take that class or understand that they have different life priorities.