Cleric buffing without DMM: Persist

[Kazyan]

I have a level 5 Cloistered Cleric doing the Zen Archery thing (which I have never done before, so there are various mistakes in the build) and I want to buff. The problem is that my low-level feats are locked in to Zen Archery stuff, which means DMM: Persist will be unavailable until level 12, and I'm not sure it's appropriate for the group's optimization level.

Supposedly, Clerics are good at buffing, but DMM: Persist is commonly presented at the method with which to do so. What about without the 4-feat tax? Can clerics rock out without that one trick?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's only three feats, Extend, Persist, and DMM: Persist, and you should have two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats plus the Planning domain to get Extend Spell for free. The Elf domain gets you Point-Blank Shot, you can spend your 1st level feat on Precise Shot, and take Zen Archery at 3rd. Get Extra Turning at 6th and Craft Rod at 9th to make your own Night Sticks.

[Kazyan]

Let me rephrase the line about feats being locked in: I cannot change my feat selection. This is because the character has been in play since level 3. My feats are Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (Flaw), Knowledge Devotion (trading out the Mind domain), and Zen Archery (3rd). My domains for this character are Transformation and Knowledge, the former of which I have Spontaneous Domain Casting for.

...I don't know what I was thinking either. Anyway, because of the above mistakes, I will not be able to have DMM: Persist for a while and it's sketchy for the group's optimization level--which is why I'm asking about what to do without it. Clerics are Tier 1, but can they actually do the buffing/archery thing without taking DMM: Persist?

[Darrin]

1st: bless, blade of blood (PHBII), ray of hope (BoED), ice slick + snowshoes (Frostburn/Spell Compendium), magic weapon

2nd: bull's strength, spiritual weapon (I tend to prefer this to buffs), frost weapon (Spell Compendium), obscuring snow (Frostburn, if you can get a treehugger to cast snowsight on the party)

3rd: dispel magic, bladebane (Unapproachable East), girallon's blessing (Spell Compendium), prayer, magic vestment, protection from energy

See if you can get ahold of some fairy dust (100 GP, Complete Mage) to Extend your transmutation spells. Angel down (same price) can be used for Extending abjurations. Golden Desert Honey (300 GP, Complete Mage) is also handy for standard-action summons.

See if you can get some Glyph Seals (1000 GP, MIC), hopefully one per party member. Attach them to pockets, ammunition, or spell components so they can be activated as a free action. You can then load up individual buffs for each party member before combat, and use your first round to cast a party-wide buff such as bless or prayer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let me rephrase the line about feats being locked in: I cannot change my feat selection. This is because the character has been in play since level 3. My feats are Point Blank Shot (1st), Precise Shot (Flaw), Knowledge Devotion (trading out the Mind domain), and Zen Archery (3rd). My domains for this character are Transformation and Knowledge, the former of which I have Spontaneous Domain Casting for.

...I don't know what I was thinking either. Anyway, because of the above mistakes, I will not be able to have DMM: Persist for a while and it's sketchy for the group's optimization level--which is why I'm asking about what to do without it. Clerics are Tier 1, but can they actually do the buffing/archery thing without taking DMM: Persist?

PH2 Chapter 8 has rules on retraining, and/or you could hire an NPC Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) for a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm), so you can indeed change all of that.

[Kazyan]

1st: bless, blade of blood (PHBII), ray of hope (BoED), ice slick + snowshoes (Frostburn/Spell Compendium), magic weapon

2nd: bull's strength, spiritual weapon (I tend to prefer this to buffs), frost weapon (Spell Compendium), obscuring snow (Frostburn, if you can get a treehugger to cast snowsight on the party)

3rd: dispel magic, bladebane (Unapproachable East), girallon's blessing (Spell Compendium), prayer, magic vestment, protection from energy

See if you can get ahold of some fairy dust (100 GP, Complete Mage) to Extend your transmutation spells. Angel down (same price) can be used for Extending abjurations. Golden Desert Honey (300 GP, Complete Mage) is also handy for standard-action summons.

See if you can get some Glyph Seals (1000 GP, MIC), hopefully one per party member. Attach them to pockets, ammunition, or spell components so they can be activated as a free action. You can then load up individual buffs for each party member before combat, and use your first round to cast a party-wide buff such as bless or prayer.

Fairy Dust is new to me; it will definitely be useful at high levels.

Regarding glyph seals, I haven't used them because of the "DC 30 search check" bit, but I only now figured out the line that says you can redeploy any glyph seal you placed myself. So that checks out. A glyph seal of a Transformation domain spell would be great for buffing...


PH2 Chapter 8 has rules on retraining, and/or you could hire an NPC Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) for a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm), so you can indeed change all of that.

I'll see what I can do with that. Maybe the DM will let me use PsyReform to get that second flaw...

[Rebel7284]

- DMM Quicken can allow you to buff in combat, but likely only 1/2 times a day.
- Substitute Domain spell will allow you to switch a domain out for Planning Domain for weeks on end. Thus you can take Persistent Spell at level 6 and DMM at level 9.
Arguably, you don't even need Persistent Spell to be functional for DMM to work, so you can stop changing your domain after. This may be too cheesy for some groups. :)
- Get metamagic rods of extend and just pre-cast your hour/level spells in the beginning of the day or 10min/level spells as soon as things look grim.
- Battle Blessing + a level of Prestige Paladin can arguably allow you to auto-quicken all your spells.

[LudicSavant]

Can clerics rock out without that one trick?

Yes.

If anything, DMM: Persist is just overkill. You absolutely do not need it in order to be a top tier combatant and make fantastic use of buffs, and indeed I'm used to playing clerics in high op games composed of teams of players who write CharOp handbooks without relying on Persistent Spell and taking on challenges several CR above my level. For example, I'm currently playing a level 12 melee cleric who can dash 500 feet in a round and deal hundreds of damage to enemies with 60 AC with no chance of missing without taking a round to buff.

[daremetoidareyo]

1st: bless, blade of blood (PHBII), ray of hope (BoED), ice slick + snowshoes (Frostburn/Spell Compendium), magic weapon

2nd: bull's strength, spiritual weapon (I tend to prefer this to buffs), frost weapon (Spell Compendium), obscuring snow (Frostburn, if you can get a treehugger to cast snowsight on the party)

3rd: dispel magic, bladebane (Unapproachable East), girallon's blessing (Spell Compendium), prayer, magic vestment, protection from energy

Craft wands for your buffs and have the rogue or paladin take some of the early turns buffing up.

[Mountain]

Chain spell is great for party-buffing. Add reach spell via a rod for a few of those good touch spells. You can DMM chain spell if the +3 spell level increase is too much. (It probably is at lower levels.)

Look for spells that already have a swift action casting time.

Also look for ranged buffs. Ray of Hope is great at low levels.

[jiriku]

Between mass conviction, mass resist energy, recitation, and righteous wrath of the faithful. Enlarge person and polymorph can also be excellent party buffs for you, depending on the composition of your group.

[Kaeso]

I think a good (and semi-popular) way to cast Divine Power (and a few other buffs) quickly and efficiently without using the DMM: Persist trick is by taking Ordained Champion. You lose a spell level, but what you get in return is spontaneous war domain as well as the ability to cast war domain spells as swift actions. And would you look at that, divine power is a war domain spell! So each combat, you can use a swift action in the first round to cast this spell on yourself and still have enough actions to charge in and attack your enemy.

Feel free to use other war domain spells as swift actions as well. You can combine spiritual weapon with one of the skill tricks from complete adventurer (something to do with concentrating on a spell) to keep attacking while a spiritual weapon attacks another enemy. You can even cast flame strike as a swift action. In other words, Ordained Champion allows you to be a superior fighter who has a Heavenly Sword that attacks another enemy and can rain fiery death on his enemy every round. You become a true God of War (or at the very least his avatar).

Of course non-war domain buffs still take a full round, but Divine Power is the most important one if you want to be Clericzilla so casting that as a swift action is a major boon.

EDIT: Swift concentration! That's the skill trick! It allows you to maintain concentration on a spell as a swift action. Sadly, you can only perform one swift action per round, so you can maintain a spiritual weapon AND cast flame strike AND attack. You'll have to choose two of those three gamechanging action. How tragic. :smallwink:

[KingAtomsk]

Yes.

If anything, DMM: Persist is just overkill. You absolutely do not need it in order to be a top tier combatant and make fantastic use of buffs, and indeed I'm used to playing clerics in high op games composed of teams of players who write CharOp handbooks without relying on Persistent Spell and taking on challenges several CR above my level. For example, I'm currently playing a level 12 melee cleric who can dash 500 feet in a round and deal hundreds of damage to enemies with 60 AC with no chance of missing without taking a round to buff.

I would like to see your build. For science.

[Darthor]

I would like to see your build. For science.

Me too, it sounds really interesting.