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Silus
2014-08-10, 09:15 PM
Ok this is both a semi-homebrew question thread (Mostly me fishing for ideas) and a thought exercise.

Ok, so Generic Fantasy Kitchen Sink World A (Henceforth termed "The World") is finally getting their heads out of their butts and advancing out of the medieval slump they've found themselves in. Industry and technology is on the rise and creatures must adapt to these changes. Some of the more "human" species have begun attempting to integrate themselves with the expanding civilization.

So, in an Industrial Revolution type setting (Or, if you prefer, steampunk of whatever degree) how do you think the "monster" (Non-base) races would adapt to their trying to integrate into civilization? Or would they try at all?

VoxRationis
2014-08-10, 09:25 PM
I would expect a lot of them to be stubbornly opposed to change until conquered by the industrialized types. At least, the ones outside of the borders of the various major kingdoms would be like that. Those which form enclaves within those borders (those providing the population for all those goblin-filled dungeons) would be assimilated more quickly into an underclass population. Expect linguistic and cultural loss among these groups. Social change for the better among these underclass populations is going to be harder to occur than in real life, since orcs, for example, are empirically more brutish and less mentally capable than humans.

Lord Raziere
2014-08-10, 10:00 PM
yeah, expect a lot of use as underclass labor at best in brutal conditions of industrial factories- including children cause the concept of childhood was not invented yet- that could easily lead to them becoming ill, or losing limbs or digits to the horrid conditions, working for people that basically determine whether they have a home and food or not. workers rights, what are those?

the people escaping the factory basically becoming beggars and scavengers that will scavenge for anything to recycle and reuse to their own needs, no matter how much of a piece of junk it is- in victorian britain, such scavengers fought each other over little things we take for granted, they'd be willing to say, steal from a man just because say.....they had gloves that could warm their hands, when the weather is starting to get colder. the constables were generally considered useless in preventing crime.

or at worst, they could outright be slaves, where every little difference is used to pit the slaves against each other, so that they don't unite against the master in rebellion. goblins separated from the orcs. or older orcs separated from the younger orcs. things like that. their culture would be outright suppressed and made sure its forgotten, if the master is smart, they prevent the slaves from reading so that they don't get ideas into their head. runaways will hunted down to try and taken back to be made an example of so that others don't get an idea of escaping as well

any way you slice it, they will probably be uneducated, poor, living in brutal hardscrabble conditions where survival matters far more than anything like politics, education or your personal dreams. survival depends on making sure the people in the higher classes are not displeased with your work, or being in the part of town where even the police are afraid to go. the heroes of such races are probably people who found some way to escape such conditions, no matter how improbable.

Edit: Why in some ways you could say, they would be worse off being "civilized" than they were living in their original culture- mostly because while the physical conditions probably wouldn't change (life outside industrial civilization was still a dangerous wilderness with the risk of disease, starvation and whatnot, no matter how much victorian romanticism talks about the virtues of the "pastoral life") they still at least had a wider community they could relate to, something bigger they belonged to, a culture they could be proud of and a family they could call their own, a system of shared belief that they could be secured in. but when taken to civilization and taken all that away....they just become another expendable worker, but one that didn't grow up in the culture or grew up being thought of as a monster, and therefore has it hard twice.

Mr Beer
2014-08-11, 01:58 AM
I suggest reading the New Crobuzon series by China Mieville and stealing big chunks because it's great. The setting is relevant and there are a ton of non-human intelligent races, though not direct D&D races you can find analogues easily enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Crobuzon

Kaeso
2014-08-11, 03:35 AM
Ok this is both a semi-homebrew question thread (Mostly me fishing for ideas) and a thought exercise.

Ok, so Generic Fantasy Kitchen Sink World A (Henceforth termed "The World") is finally getting their heads out of their butts and advancing out of the medieval slump they've found themselves in. Industry and technology is on the rise and creatures must adapt to these changes. Some of the more "human" species have begun attempting to integrate themselves with the expanding civilization.

So, in an Industrial Revolution type setting (Or, if you prefer, steampunk of whatever degree) how do you think the "monster" (Non-base) races would adapt to their trying to integrate into civilization? Or would they try at all?

Without getting too much into politics, what historically decided which people were and weren't considered civilized? To a certain degree, it involved how industrialized they were. This is why the Japanese were considered civilized but the Koreans, for example, were not. This is why Japanese actually became the only non-Western colonizing power and actually colonized the Koreans, under the same civilizing mission guise as the Westerners.

So how would monsters adapt to this? I personally think some of the more clever races (like the crafty kobolds or the militarized hobgoblins) would adapt quickly. They see the rifles and canons of humans and elves and make their own. Perhaps they'd even hire human engineers and generals to train their own officers and troops (akin to the military missions to Japan by certain Western powers). They would modernize their armies in any way possible and turn their weapons against those too stubborn or not intelligent enough to advance to a sufficient level. Those who stubbornly stick to the old ways of their ancestors will quickly discover that a spear won't do you much good when you're confronted with the business end of a rifle.

So I think making monsters civilized means, in this setting, that you make them industrialized. That these monsters may hate humans as much as they always did, but at the very least acknowledge their technological superiority and try to adapt to it. They may even turn their arms on other monsters and conquer them in order to gain more strength to face off against the "civilized" races. With hobgoblins, for example, you can imagine them conquering entire goblin settlements (their "less civilized" brethren) and enslaving them so they can mine and fabricate the weapons their armies need.

In other words, civilized monsters try to beat the traditionally civilized races by beating them at their own game. Human fortifications will find themselves under siege by disciplined hobgoblin musket divisions and mortar fire.

EDIT: I have something in my own campaign more or less resembling this. It's taking place in a time more or less inspired by the late middle ages/early renaissance. Gunpowder has only recently become a thing, and mainly dwarf engineers are studying its appliances. As they come up with more and more inventions, humans and other races will either mimic them or fall before this new technology which will almost trivialize conventional warfare.

EccentricCircle
2014-08-11, 03:57 AM
Remember that history is written by the victors.
What we consider "Monster" races might well have had their own civilizations at one point or another, but evidence of that has been swept aside by the "Civilized" races who have conquered them.
Colonial powers operate by suppressing the cultures of the races they conquer. The will use propaganda to make it seem as though they are bringing civilization to primitive people, completely ignoring the rich histories those people already had. Where they can't push the preexisting culture under the rug and ignore it completely you get propaganda claiming that the conquered civilization was once great but is now "In decline" and so it is the colonizers manifest destiny to take over and restore it. It's all about being able to justify their unethical practices by rewriting history to suit their own agenda.

WarKitty
2014-08-11, 05:49 AM
You might be interested in looking at how various native tribes responded to european contact. Obviously superior technology was adopted pretty quickly in most cases, though monsters in later contact with civilized races might lack the infrastructure to produce certain goods. So for example most native tribes took up horse breeding, especially in areas with lots of open spaces where horses were useful. Guns became a heavily desired commodity but most natives lacked the infrastructure to manufacture them.

Technological secrets would become hot commodities, especially if new technologies could be produced without massive sociological changes (this was the problem with guns - it's near impossible to go from a society that doesn't practice mining or smithing to gun manufacture quickly). The more advanced peoples might try to avoid giving the less advanced access to technologies that let them be more independent, perhaps favoring things like weaponry that requires ammo they couldn't produce, or at least trying to keep tech secrets away from them.

Conflict between the more industrialized nations would change the playing field. "Barbarian" allies equipped with modern technology could serve as useful troops. Nations might court the barbarians with promise of technology or even secrets, if only to get them on their own side. This wouldn't even require open war; economic circumstances where the barbarians had access to raw materials or luxury goods could produce conflicts as powers vie for trading rights. They might even be recruited into proxy wars, with nations secretly or not-so-secretly funding the monsters to harass their enemies.

More astute races might notice other trappings of civilization than the immediately obvious and attempt to emulate them - or simply emulate them out of a love of the exotic. Illiterate races might realize the advantage of literacy and begin to write down their own language. Government reforms might attempt to centralize power in ways that would promote greater industrialization.

Yora
2014-08-11, 06:01 AM
Monsters who opperate by infiltration will love it. In an urban society, people only know a small number of other people and it's completely normal to not have any idea who most people are. This means you can create new cover identities at any moment and in most cases you don't even have to pass as someone specific.
Monster worshiping cults can also thrive, as a closed of sub-culture won't be noticed by anyone if the members are properly taught to blend in with other people. In a rural village, you just can't go to a secret place without a lot of people wondering what's going on. In a big city, you can get away with a lot more.

Metahuman1
2014-08-11, 08:29 AM
So, skimming the thread, I notice everyone want's to take something of a grim/dark/realistic approch to this. Thus, for my two cents, alternative point of view.

This is D&D, it should be fun.

Illithad Businessmen, Ogers running effective labor unions, that plucky Orc inventor that had this great idea to add rails under Muskets to fix the knew fangled bayonet daggers under the barrel so you could be able to cut+stab And have shot loaded in it at the same time, dragons running escort services, Beholders running for office to champion the oppressed (You know, the Gnomes and Halflings.).

Have fun with it. After all, it's an inherently insane concept. =)

2nd_Fiddle
2014-08-11, 09:24 AM
Beholders running for office to champion the oppressed (You know, the Gnomes and Halflings.).

"I am always looking out for the little people"

Metahuman1
2014-08-11, 09:28 AM
I'm so glad someone got that one. XD!

VoxRationis
2014-08-11, 09:43 AM
They see the rifles and canons of humans and elves and make their own. Perhaps they'd even hire human engineers...

I think it's a big assumption to assume that the elves would be among those industrializing. I think it more likely they'd be getting the short stick of the affair. A lot of settings and people nowadays play up the "arrogant and elitist" aspect of elves more than the traits of being wise, close to nature, conservative, etc., which I would consider closer to their primary identity.
Dwarves might seem like a shoe-in for industrialization as well, but keep in mind that they represent the skilled craftsmen put out of work by the new machines. You might see serious unrest in the dwarven cities because of this.

sktarq
2014-08-11, 01:11 PM
While labor and downtrodden underclass would probably be the most likely result. Even small cultural cues could lead to other options. Slave labor leading to slave warriors and whole civil systems based on such slave warriors like the Egyptian Mamluk and Kapıkulu armies. Or if a region known for a given industry the use of non human labor may become tied to that industry. Perhaps minotaurs have developed into a force that has come to dominate the gardening and commercial orchard businesses. Traditional decoration of skins on a cave wall has mutated to floral and vegetation sprays, crop mazes pop up every harvest season, being invited into a minotaurs personal garden is treated with great respect as they can be just as defensive as they were about mazes, hoof presses for olive oil are treated as signs of quality and an "indoor" minotaur is assumed to be defensive, violent, and harkening back to their less "civilized" fore-bearers. When turning to military they use their knowledge of plants to live off the land and since they never get lost make for great scouts. Calves in a metropolis may well be good guides while older ones may run a courier service (never gets lost and who wants to mess with 'em).

Coidzor
2014-08-11, 01:32 PM
Goblins and Kobolds would be ideal factory workers. They breed and reach maturity quickly, and they have nice, small hands, so you don't even need child labor with them around, although kobold and goblin child labor would be able to get into cat-sized areas...

Also with (dog-lizard style) Kobolds they don't even need clothing, per se, so as long as the factory work is sufficiently unsafe that they don't populate to the point they expand out of their quarters (unless one *wants* them to produce more workers for another factory or to expand production), all they need is food, water, living space, and a communal creche or whatever it's called for their egg-laying place.

Orcs would be ideal for tasks requiring strength, and Arcanum presents Orc factory workers as practically slave labor of the industrialists of Tarant, the main city in the game.

Similarly Arcanum has some ideas about Half-Ogres and possibly Ogres as a race of bouncers and bodyguards, I suppose.

Minotaurs might have some potential usage as prison guards/wardens, I suppose, if one wanted to repurpose labyrinths as that instead of just slow death traps?

I suppose Medusae could integrate with society in a similar way to how hags are in the Potterverse? :smallconfused:

PersonMan
2014-08-11, 01:57 PM
I think it's a big assumption to assume that the elves would be among those industrializing. I think it more likely they'd be getting the short stick of the affair. A lot of settings and people nowadays play up the "arrogant and elitist" aspect of elves more than the traits of being wise, close to nature, conservative, etc., which I would consider closer to their primary identity.

This. In a setting of mine that's undergone a slightly magitech-y industrialization, the elves are the ones who haven't even started using gunpowder while other nations are controlling the seas with ironclads.

This problem extends to things like warfare as well - even for an industrialized society, issues with rapidly changing technology caused many nations problems due to their older leadership and lack of quick adaptation to the realities of war. If these issues crop up for a people whose old generals are 60 years old, what kind of ones would arise for a similarly arrogant, conservative leadership whose idea of the 'good old days' is over 200 years past?

BRC
2014-08-11, 02:27 PM
I did this a couple times in different campaign worlds, with how the more traditional "monster" races integrated.

Goblins and Hobgoblins could adapt just fine, either building their own industrialized societies, or trying to fit in in "Humanoid" society, depending on if this world has established "Monster" nations, or if it's just a bunch of roving warbands and dungeon-dwelling tribes. If the latter, they're likely to come out of the dungeon and seek their fortunes in the city. One campaign I ran featured Hobgoblin-run labor unions, which was fun.

One thing to remember is that with Industrialization comes higher populations and bigger cities. So your standard roving band of orcish raiders isn't going to be as effective. All the good loot is going to be in the cities, which are too big for a nomadic warband to take on.
In addition, Industrialization usually means Centralization of power, which means that the leaders of nations are more likely to send in the troops, rather than waiting for a merry band of adventurers to wander by and eliminate the threat.

Personally, my settings tend to see the "Monster" races integrating, usually living in isolated districts in cities, working largely as manual laborers in factories.

Of course, some monsters may find they can join the new upper class. As the Aristocracy of Blood falls, the Aristocracy of Wealth rises, and an Orc's gold spends as well as anybody else's. Anybody with enough money can show up and start building factories, buying ships, and hiring workers. The sons of Warlords become Robber Barons, even as their footsoldiers become laborers.

TeChameleon
2014-08-11, 02:38 PM
I think all this is ignoring two major factors of D&D; the gods and magic. What happens to the factory run on orcish slave labour when one of the older slaves is visited by Gruumsh in his dreams, is granted cleric levels, and starts calling down (un)holy fire after buffing the abrupt slave rebellion out the wazoo? Sure, the constables/military might be able to put it down, but if there's a passable chance of it happening any time you've got too many enslaved orcs in one spot, their popularity as workers might drop a little.

And with magic, the elves might not be as much of a non-issue as they seem at first glance. A strong affinity for both nature and the arcane means that they'll often turn out superiour druids, wizards, sorcerors and the like, which would tend to offset their technological and numerical inferiority. Probably not completely, but elves, while traditionalists, are hardly stupid. There will be some rangers and experimentally minded wizards and whatever who will be just itching to get their hands on the new technology and start enchanting it.

One other random thought- the gnomes. They're usually presented as being centuries ahead of the rest of the setting, technologically speaking, with the only real stumbling block being reliability. Kind of like a race of stubby mad scientists. If the rest of the world is hitting the industrial revolution, what will the gnomes be doing? Nuclear power (or just being mostly extinct from experimentation with the same >.>)? Maglev bullet trains that inadvertently become railguns every once in a while? Could be interesting to experiment with...

MickJay
2014-08-11, 02:40 PM
You might find exploring the setting of the cRPG Arcanum interesting - it's a victorianesque, steampunkish setting in which the industrial revolution is steaming ahead while the magic users find themselves progressively displaced (as magic and technology are inherently incompatible in the setting). Half-orcs tend to work in factories owned by humans and gnomes, half-ogres serve almost exclusively as bodyguards of the rich (or turn to banditry), while many of the elves become increasingly hostile to the "progress", due to their natural magic affinity. Dwarves are, for the most part, embracing the changes due to tech affinity, but some deem the extensive use of steam power wrong (valuing artisanship and craft more highly than automated production). Pretty much any race intelligent enough to communicate is a possible PC race (with a few exceptions of isolated communities); minor "monster" races are still present in the wilderness and are invariably hostile.

Silus
2014-08-11, 03:39 PM
I suppose Medusae could integrate with society in a similar way to how hags are in the Potterverse? :smallconfused:

Three words: "Medusa Prison Warden". :smallbiggrin:

Erik Vale
2014-08-12, 07:10 AM
It depends entirely on the race.
Races that can't get their act together on their own [Ogres, Orcs, Goblins] will resist right up until the point they're made slaves [or slave-equivalents]. Naturest races will try to seek out their own Enclaves where they try to keep everyone else out. Those that have their act together [I.e. Kobolds] would probably start to modernize almost immidiately.

And races that don't need to sleep will be seen like blessings for their ability to work 24/7.

Kaeso
2014-08-13, 02:59 AM
I think it's a big assumption to assume that the elves would be among those industrializing. I think it more likely they'd be getting the short stick of the affair. A lot of settings and people nowadays play up the "arrogant and elitist" aspect of elves more than the traits of being wise, close to nature, conservative, etc., which I would consider closer to their primary identity.
Dwarves might seem like a shoe-in for industrialization as well, but keep in mind that they represent the skilled craftsmen put out of work by the new machines. You might see serious unrest in the dwarven cities because of this.

True, though I think it would depend on the subspecies of elf as well I think. Of course would elves would vehemently oppose industrialization the moment it threatens their woodlands, and only halfway adapt to the modern world. I imagine they would, for example, import rifles from more industrialized societies and become a sort of modern rangers, but otherwise remain the same. Their modernization would serve the sole purpose of guarding their homes and woods better than before.

High or gray elves, on the other hand, I imagine would quickly industrialize, if not be one of the main driving forces behind it and attribute a lot of their prestige and arrogance to it. They would probably look down on the "uncivilized" savages who refuse to adapt to the changing world, including their woodland brethren.

veti
2014-08-13, 05:29 PM
I've seen two radically different answers to this from radically different fantasy authors.

One, the grim/dark approach (The Witcher): non-human races are marginalised, ghettoised, exploited, massive conflict and needless hatred all around.

Two, the optimistic approach (Discworld): every race finds its niche. Just as dwarves are great craftsmen, so goblins may turn out to be wonderful singers and make beautiful pottery, gnolls really enjoy the work of street-cleaning, gargoyles are fantastic guards (because they can sit still and stare at one spot for years on end, if necessary)...

I like the second approach far better. Industrialisation is, inherently, a disruptive process - the 'old' social structures are going to be breaking down anyway, which creates opportunities for those ready to take them. For any sufficiently intelligent race, there would be some members who'd see those opportunities and react to them, and lots more who'd follow their lead.

Of course, any race not sufficiently intelligent to do that would probably be relegated to a rapidly-diminishing reserve of undeveloped land. Or zoos.

Jay R
2014-08-13, 06:15 PM
A crucial decision for the DM is to determine whether magical production could be industrialized. I suspect not, and eventually magic would become a much smaller factor in the world. The same money that could create one wand of magic missiles could instead be used to build a factory to make muskets, for instance.

I suspect that the kobolds would be the first to invent steam power, thus effectively starting the Industrial revolution.

Dwarves would invent the assembly line, and run the best, most efficient factories.

Cheap labor in the form of the goblin races would parallel third world development.

Giants would power large machinery, like the trolls shown closing the Black Gate and hauling siege equipment in the Lord of the Rings movies.

And finally, the elves would stop being considered elite, as they stayed in their forests and slowly dropped behind everyone else in development.

Sartharina
2014-08-13, 08:55 PM
So, in an Industrial Revolution type setting (Or, if you prefer, steampunk of whatever degree) how do you think the "monster" (Non-base) races would adapt to their trying to integrate into civilization? Or would they try at all?I say Hobgoblins would spearhead the industrial revolution, necessitated by their warlike nature, cunning, and militant mindset. (And sturdiness)

First - the Hobgoblins fall to a mago-theocratic government to gain the arcane and divine power needed to retake the homeland of their ancestral empire. Then, after the forces of the oppressive mago-theocracy are spread thin, dissenters within the suppressed ranks, driven by a desire for Social Justice, rebel against the wizards and clerics making up the ruling caste. However, their lawful alignment, loyalty, and militant mindset keep them focused - and their first order of business is shutting down mages, and replicating magical effects through mundane means. So, through disciplined application of R&D, they quickly start developing machines that become rapid-firing firearms (Because they need to hit hard and fast to keep spellcasters disrupted) and highly-mobile artillery...

Okay, so what I'm actually saying is Hobgoblins should be Charr.

Fable Wright
2014-08-13, 09:27 PM
I'd recommend looking at Eberron, especially Droaam and Darguul, for some idea of how monstrous races would integrate into society. For example, in Greywall, Harpies often serve as 'songbirds', singers with voices more beautiful than even the best of Bards. Medusae, having all above-average mental stats, took jobs as architects and stoneworkers, in addition to serving jobs as judicial magistrates capable of imposing some prison sentences. Ogre mages/Oni are skilled craftsmen, entrepreneurs, and generally intelligent people running businesses. In a more industrialized setting than Droaam, I could see Minotaurs being ideal middle management or legal consultants, with their innate ability to solve mazes being applied to both legal and business structures, even if they aren't intelligent or charismatic enough to be the face or head of a company. I could see Trolls being high-risk job workers like street policemen, firefighters (given, of course, heat-proof gear), and industrial machinery repairmen. The one Illithid in Greywall uses its superhuman intelligence and mental stats in city planning and mayoring, designing the place to evoke feelings of safety in public forums and fear in alleyways, in addition to ensuring an extremely loyal and uncorruptable peacekeeping force and ensuring optimal resource management.

Ravens_cry
2014-08-13, 11:51 PM
I think you need to ask why the monster race is becoming civilized. Are they looking for power? Then I see it being one of the weaker, physically, monster races. Goblins are pretty classic for this, but let's go with Kobolds. I am imagining a charismatic leader seeking new allies, because, frankly, dragons don't give a flaming turd about Kobolds, despite or because of their slavish, worshipful attentions. Of course, this leads to clashes with the old guard and religious leaders with the Kobold community, even as Kobold society changes under the new order of things. There you go, drama and tension, the stuff stories are made of.
I can think of another reason why a more powerful monster race might be become civilized. Sure, the above can work too, broadly speaking, but let's say a race, say, orcs, invades a region and conquers it, but, the leader decides it would be more fun to stay and rule than to pillage and leave. The orcs become the new ruling class, but, over time, they start to become downright gentrified, being assimilated into a mingling to the two cultures, where Orcish is the language of court, half orcs are much more common and respected, new gods are worshipped, but, mostly, life goes on.

Alex12
2014-08-14, 01:29 AM
I'd fully expect some races to be able to civilize more quickly, depending on exactly what you mean by "civilize."
For example, Illithids. They're generally pretty horrible for anyone who isn't an illithid or related race (Elder Brain, etc) but in terms of mental stats, they're just straight-up all-around better than humans, and that's on top of having a functioning society hidden underground. They're probably already industrialized, as least as much as is possible while remaining hidden from all the races that hate them (which is pretty much everyone)

Broadly speaking, industrialization requires at least something resembling a functional society with cities. So the more lawful races, the ones that tend to build cities (as opposed to camps and such) are more likely to industrialize. I could easily see a kobold warren carved into the side of a volcano that taps the geothermal energy to power huge underground factories, with the smoke from industry being vented from the top of the volcano.

rs2excelsior
2014-08-14, 02:23 AM
Well, if you want the basis to seem realistic, then base it on reality. Find loose historical "templates," form them to fit, add magic to taste, and there you go. Sure, whatever templates you use will probably be oversimplifications (let's face it, we're playing a game, not writing a historical thesis), but they feel real--because they have happened, or at least the broad strokes. From my knowledge of the industrial revolution, there are four models you can go on for "monsters" catching up with the "civilized" races. Most of these work best if the monsters are in their own insular societies, outside of the main civilized regions (your fantasy equivalent of Europe).

1) Russia. Wants to catch up to the industrialized nations, but is generally backward. Finally gets a reformer in charge who modernizes (for better or for worse), and suddenly the huge peasant population makes it a powerhouse among the nations that it caught up to (at least occasionally).
2) Africa/the Americas. Far removed from the industrialized countries--culturally, technologically, and geographically--and is generally seen (falsely) as savages who are good for nothing but manual labor. Never given the chance to industrialize, but rather forced to be pawns of the other powers. Expect colonies with a tenuous connection to the motherland and all kinds of frontier adventure. Or, for added flair, go the route of North America, where the colonizers become predominant but develop their own identity, culminating in revolution and a new power, initially weak, but with growing influence on the world stage.
3) Japan. Through geographical isolation cuts itself off from the civilized nations. Reacts violently against outside influence. Can later reverse course, catch up quickly, and burst spectacularly onto the scene by taking on and beating an established power (the Russo-Japanese War is a fascinating period of history).
4) Internal Tension. This can take all kinds of forms, some of which have already been mentioned--Marxist hopes of uniting the Proletariat, Luddite rebellions against the machines that are taking their jobs, even a full-on armed conflict between industrial and agrarian parts of a nation, a la the American Civil War.

Pick what suits you for whatever groups you want (and what makes sense), and apply the general patterns to your world, molding them as needed. The catch with this approach is that your players probably don't want to play (or your readers read, I don't know the medium here) in Europe, circa 1800, BUT WITH ORCS. But, done well, you can mask the fact that you're basing things off history, but still give the world a sense of realism.

Mastikator
2014-08-14, 09:29 AM
The goblinoid races are just as smart as humans, and far more hard working, disciplined and have shorter live spans (yes, that works in their favor). They would probably out-civilize the humans. It's races like elves, dwarves, halflings and even gnomes that would be left behind.

I suspect orcs would find themselves as slaves to the goblinoid races fairly quickly, or totally erradicated.

Sartharina
2014-08-14, 09:52 AM
The only goblinoid race more hard-working and disciplined than humans are the Hobgoblins. Bugbears are schoolyard bullies, and Goblins are schoolyard brats.

Mastikator
2014-08-14, 09:58 AM
Yeah, the hobgoblins would enslave, erradicate or leave the other goblinoids behind. I think the humans would probably do the same to the non hobs.

The kobolds would also dominate civilization, probably in a very different way that there are no real world examples off, but I have no doubt that they'd outgrow all the other subterran races, dwarves, duegar, drow, etc.

Edit-

But my point is that the only non-monsters who even do "civilization" are the humans, all the other non-monster non-human races are far too long lived and traditionally minded to ever leave a medival setting and would have to immigrate into human societies. I don't believe hobgoblins or kobolds would take them as anything but second class citizens, or worse.

Sartharina
2014-08-14, 10:06 AM
But my point is that the only non-monsters who even do "civilization" are the humans, all the other non-monster non-human races are far too long lived and traditionally minded to ever leave a medival setting and would have to immigrate into human societies. I don't believe hobgoblins or kobolds would take them as anything but second class citizens, or worse.Dwarves also do civilization, industrialization, and mobilization. Have you seen the crazy stuff that comes out of Bay12?

Elves fade away. Halflings continue sucking on Human Culture, and Gnomes augment dwarven industry with even greater innovation and invention.

Dwarves are culturally traditionalistic, but technologically and industrially progressive.

VoxRationis
2014-08-14, 11:11 AM
Keep in mind that Sartharina is a Dwarf Fortress fan who thinks that having a Lawful alignment means you can say "screw you" to entropy (a thousand starving paladins, questing alone without Survival, lament that this is not the case). I myself think that the dwarves would be about as conservative with regards to modernization as the elves, possibly even more so depending on the exact circumstances.

Sartharina
2014-08-14, 11:25 AM
Keep in mind that Sartharina is a Dwarf Fortress fan who thinks that having a Lawful alignment means you can say "screw you" to entropy (a thousand starving paladins, questing alone without Survival, lament that this is not the case). I myself think that the dwarves would be about as conservative with regards to modernization as the elves, possibly even more so depending on the exact circumstances.First off - Paladin is a class, not a race, and therefore does not have the inherent Power of Law permeating every aspect of its being in the same way a Dwarf does.

Dwarves, unlike elves, are fighting a Forever War against the world. They don't have the liberty or privilege to fail to adapt the the ever-changing scope and scale of those wars, and their specialized clans devote heavy resources into R&D to ensure they have a technological, strategic, and informational edge over their opponents.

Mastikator
2014-08-14, 12:48 PM
Dwarves also do civilization, industrialization, and mobilization. Have you seen the crazy stuff that comes out of Bay12?

Elves fade away. Halflings continue sucking on Human Culture, and Gnomes augment dwarven industry with even greater innovation and invention.

Dwarves are culturally traditionalistic, but technologically and industrially progressive.

How is Dwarf Fortress relevant to D&D based settings?

Cyrion
2014-08-14, 01:06 PM
In a fantasy setting where magic is a significant factor, I think "getting out of the medieval slump" is going to be largely limited to social rather than technological change. With magic easily accessible, there's little point to developing many technologies.

For example, a musket is going to be a worse weapon in a D&D world than is a crossbow because of its rate of fire. Yes, you may do a few more hit points of damage with your gunpowder, and you may have a body of cheap infantry with your muskets, but by the time they've reloaded, your enemy will have lobbed multiple fireballs or cloudkills. Why would I develop a mortar when I could be using earthquake, stone to flesh, or polymorph? Truly modern technology probably wins out over magic, but many of the intermediate jumps required to get there would probably die in development as mere curiosities.

Thus I think when it comes down to monster races becoming "civilized," look to your lawful, intelligent races to keep up and your chaotic and less-intelligent races to fall behind.

Sartharina
2014-08-14, 01:51 PM
How is Dwarf Fortress relevant to D&D based settings?Because D&D's Dwarves are Dwarves, as are Dwarf Fortress Dwarves. Dwarves are the universal Fantasy Constant - that's what makes them Dwarves, instead of Elves.

It's been acknowledged that All Dwarves Are The Same, within acceptable parameters of deviation.

Mastikator
2014-08-14, 01:56 PM
In a fantasy setting where magic is a significant factor, I think "getting out of the medieval slump" is going to be largely limited to social rather than technological change. With magic easily accessible, there's little point to developing many technologies.

For example, a musket is going to be a worse weapon in a D&D world than is a crossbow because of its rate of fire. Yes, you may do a few more hit points of damage with your gunpowder, and you may have a body of cheap infantry with your muskets, but by the time they've reloaded, your enemy will have lobbed multiple fireballs or cloudkills. Why would I develop a mortar when I could be using earthquake, stone to flesh, or polymorph? Truly modern technology probably wins out over magic, but many of the intermediate jumps required to get there would probably die in development as mere curiosities.

Thus I think when it comes down to monster races becoming "civilized," look to your lawful, intelligent races to keep up and your chaotic and less-intelligent races to fall behind.

Most can't learn to use mid level magic spells, and even then it takes a considerable amount of training and resources to get such a person. And you're taking a huge investment in the form of a fragile person, and putting them on a battle field. One or two musket hits and this person dies. And when they die they take their fireballs with them.

The other side instead used this high intellect individual to invent technology and do scientific research. They invent something, and if they get killed for some unlikely reason the technology and science still remains. Over the long run one side will get better and better weapons, tactics, armors and higher quality of life for civilians even. The other side will have a few powerful individuals and never progress. The other side never progress because the people who would've been inventing and contributing are instead using magic and when they die, their power goes with them.

2nd edit-

Just imagine if Sir. Isaac Newton focused on learning fireballs and teleportation instead of inventing science and calculus, he would've spent his time mastering the arcane arts, learning how to go anywhere he wanted and throw around energies at will. Then he would've died of old age and all his magic would've died with him, aside form a handfull of magic items.
We would've gained a handful of magic items, and we would've lost science. Those few magic items don't stand to compare with the progress society has made because of his discoveries, not even close, not even remotely. If the people who invented everything we use instead had focused on learning magic then they would've gained immense power, and society would stagnate. We'd be lucky to be in the dark ages today. We'd have a bunch of magic items floating around, but we wouldn't have cars, airplanes, we wouldn't explore space, we wouldn't know about other galaxies, dark energies, we wouldn't know about germs, we wouldn't have medicine. We would trade everything we take for granted today for a bunch of super powered nerds living amongst ants that they can't share their power with in any meaningful way.

edit-
@Sartharina, the dwarves in the Middle Earth are technologically stagnant, perhaps not as much as the elves.

Sartharina
2014-08-14, 02:03 PM
In a fantasy setting where magic is a significant factor, I think "getting out of the medieval slump" is going to be largely limited to social rather than technological change. With magic easily accessible, there's little point to developing many technologies.

For example, a musket is going to be a worse weapon in a D&D world than is a crossbow because of its rate of fire. Yes, you may do a few more hit points of damage with your gunpowder, and you may have a body of cheap infantry with your muskets, but by the time they've reloaded, your enemy will have lobbed multiple fireballs or cloudkills. Why would I develop a mortar when I could be using earthquake, stone to flesh, or polymorph? Truly modern technology probably wins out over magic, but many of the intermediate jumps required to get there would probably die in development as mere curiosities.

Thus I think when it comes down to monster races becoming "civilized," look to your lawful, intelligent races to keep up and your chaotic and less-intelligent races to fall behind.Because the magic is used by the oppressive magocracy/theocracy, and you need mundane tools to be able to counter them, such as a small, concealable high-power weapon for disabling casters quickly and by surprise (Using ammo small and dense enough to avoid being caught by arcane defenses), and long-range, rapid-fire, and mobile solutions to casters, in addition to explosive or versatile artillery.

You don't end up with blackpowder muskets hitting the combat field - instead, the Charr Hobgoblin engineers, after finding that they can use explosive gases to propel small, heavy objects fast enough to avert Protection From Arrows and Wind Walls, will then find a way to quickly clear and reload the chamber for repeated shots, or miniaturize the device so it can be carried by assassins. They also need mobile artillery and vehicles to make up for a lack of arcane means of transportation.

After a few months of hellish R&D to counter the impossible-to-overcome advantages of wizards and clerics (There's no symmetric development to cause the stagnation and slow development process the evolution to modern warfare saw), you end up with Hobgoblin refineries and factories pumping out Gatling-equipped Ornithopters, horseless, armored self-propelled cannons (We call them "Tanks"), assault rifle-toting infantry (With agile, elemental-and-force-resistant body armor), ironclad submersible warships, and versatile ammunition and fuel reserves to stand against their arcane adversaries through strategic superiority control of land, sea, and air operations.

VoxRationis
2014-08-14, 04:49 PM
Because D&D's Dwarves are Dwarves, as are Dwarf Fortress Dwarves. Dwarves are the universal Fantasy Constant - that's what makes them Dwarves, instead of Elves.

It's been acknowledged that All Dwarves Are The Same, within acceptable parameters of deviation.

Are Dragon Age's dwarves all lawful? I think not. They certainly aren't progressive, so if all dwarves were the same, that franchise would put the kibosh on your super-progressive dwarves. In any case, why are you so... worshipful of them? I have nothing against dwarves, but you have this bizarre reverence, beyond all reason, for them. Perhaps you are being sarcastic?

Also, that's not how R&D works. You claim that symmetrical development prevents technological innovation and that without it, you could get up to Gatling guns and ironclads immediately. I dispute that conclusion.

TeChameleon
2014-08-14, 04:57 PM
Hmm. Another thought: the assumption being floated (at least by a few people) is that magic would remain the same in terms of investment of time and effort as it was prior to modernization. How would (near-) universal literacy and mandatory public education change that, do you think? You could potentially wind up with a scenario where 'Magic' was a course at school just like Math or Language Arts, with pretty much the entirety of the population being able to cast cantrips at the very least, and kids in high school could be tossing Magic Missiles or Color Spray if they were choosing to focus on magic in their studies.

Might alter the balance of power a bit if every soldier in your army could cast as little as Magic Missile once per day. Closing battle lines might get rather interesting if you could get focus-fired into oblivion with perfect-accuracy magic...

... for that matter, how would mandatory public education affect class levels? That could get potentially get impressively weird.

Erik Vale
2014-08-14, 06:48 PM
On the Goblins and Dwarf debates:

Yes. Goblins are just as smart as people. They don't work well together. They couldn't have their own revolution. They couldn't even steal one properly. At least, in my opinion.

Dwarves, on of the bigger problems they face is underpopulation, in many DnD worlds and, well, many worlds in general.
And even if they survive that, take a look at their Cha penalty and Fluff, they're slow to trust/work together, which is increased further by their lifespan. Heard of the generation gap? Apply that several fold. They'll make really good riffles, but they'll be using last generations really good riffles into perpetuity until they're severely stomped on... Oh, and refer to the population problem from before, that stomping on may well prevent them from surviving as a species [not that DnD has species... Or more, everything from dragons to dwarves are the same species].


I'll agree now that many long lived races will be left in the dust... But I've a feeling slavery may turn them into survivors, that are known for being really skilled.
However, many races/cultures that may advance already say no to slavery, causing extinctions in certain areas for said races.

I also disagree with the idea of months for Hobgoblins inventing tanks and automatic weapons. DnD would support science for warfare going faster, yes, and yes, DnD already has clockwork, so there are some steps in the right direction already, but far from months. Properly not decades like us [maybe a handful of years instead, possibly less with intelligence boosters], but not months.

Edit: Education:
Stat requirement remain the same, education would only effect skill points/class skill. However more people would try for it, which mean many people may try to take up one or two 'wizard' levels, grab the magical training or such feat. So, weak magics would be more common, but the big stuff.... not so much.
However, it turns a unit of wizard 1 infintry into anti-tank troops [force damage ignores hardness].

As for classes. Commoner nolonger exists. Everyone has more skill points. [Think PF lorewarden, +1 skill point/level, only in int based skills, all int based skills are class skills]

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 06:59 PM
Industrial races besides humans:

Hobgoblins, most likely under Hextor, would get their act together in a hurry and enslave other goblinoids. Kobolds are to Hobgoblins what Gnomes are to Dwarves, so they'll be the inventor subset of the humanoid machine.

Meanwhile, the Dwarf/Gnome alliance will generally be doing 'masterwork, but slow' advances, where any given example of technology is better then the human equivalent, but those halfassed humans will have instead invented something better.

Elves generally say 'screw you, technology, we've got MAGIC!' So long as magic is even or better then technology, elves remain relevant.

Halflings just chill with the humans, mostly.

Erik Vale
2014-08-14, 07:13 PM
Industrial races besides humans:

* Hobgoblins, most likely under Hextor, would get their act together in a hurry and enslave other goblinoids. Kobolds are to Hobgoblins what Gnomes are to Dwarves, so they'll be the inventor subset of the humanoid machine.

** Meanwhile, the Dwarf/Gnome alliance will generally be doing 'masterwork, but slow' advances, where any given example of technology is better then the human equivalent, but those halfassed humans will have instead invented something better.

* No, Kobolds are like more dwarfy dwarves that aren't hide bound. They do everthing as efficiently as possible [From RoTD, even dwarven mines seem poor compared to kobold mines], they even train their sorcerers instead of just making sure they don't explode or something.
If Dwarves and Gnomes had a baby, that baby would almost be as hard working as the kobolds and would have their same ignoring of tradition.

Oh, and Kobolds breed fast with longer-than-human lifespans [120+X is their old age death instead of 100+x]. A technological Kobold race would be downright terrifying... If not for disease hitting them harder and their strength penalty meaning that guns almost become shoulder mounted weapons for them... But I imagine they'll get artillery down really quickly.

** Yep, as said. Their stuff trumps all... Last generation stuff. However what power gains were made in the generation gap are countered by never jamming.
To best show, stereo-typically American modern weapons will jam if you look at them funny, where as the Russian AK- series is known for being burried for a few years, unburied, and then working as if it was as good as new. Now imagine one with slightly less accuracy [I know], but possibly more ammo to account for that. There you have Dwarf automatic weapons vs Human automatic weapons.

Except, sentient races being sentient races, this will all vary, stereotypes are just generalizations, not the be all and end all.

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 07:24 PM
Elves present the biggest quandary.

How long can their army of T1 (or even T2) casters stay ahead of technology?

"So you guys have machineguns. That's nice. I have Cloudkill (etc.)"

Silus
2014-08-14, 07:35 PM
Elves present the biggest quandary.

How long can their army of T1 (or even T2) casters stay ahead of technology?

"So you guys have machineguns. That's nice. I have Cloudkill (etc.)"

"Oh this gun is just a distraction." *Sound of incoming artillery fire*

VoxRationis
2014-08-14, 09:05 PM
Artillery takes time to adjust and calibrate. On a tactical sense, a mid-level wizard can react much more quickly than an artillery battery, and I think most generals would consider them more useful.

Vereshti
2014-08-14, 09:34 PM
Just imagine if Sir. Isaac Newton focused on learning fireballs and teleportation instead of inventing science and calculus, he would've spent his time mastering the arcane arts, learning how to go anywhere he wanted and throw around energies at will. Then he would've died of old age and all his magic would've died with him, aside form a handfull of magic items.
We would've gained a handful of magic items, and we would've lost science.

Then again, it has been said "Newton was not the first of the age of reason, he was the last of the magicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies)."

veti
2014-08-14, 09:35 PM
Artillery takes time to adjust and calibrate. On a tactical sense, a mid-level wizard can react much more quickly than an artillery battery, and I think most generals would consider them more useful.

But when your 6" cannon gets fried by a lightning strike or whatever, you just roll up another one, made by the same workmen in the same foundry. Repeat ad infinitum - they can probably churn out several of the things a day.

When your 10th level wizard finally cops a cannonball in the chest, it takes decades to raise and train a replacement. Longer, if she's an elf.

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 09:49 PM
You forget the possibility of the wizard using scry and die on the factory, and away ya go.

veti
2014-08-14, 10:15 PM
You forget the possibility of the wizard using scry and die on the factory, and away ya go.

The name says it all: scry and die. So now you've got one dead wizard, and one trashed foundry.

One of these things can be rebuilt, from scratch if need be, in a few weeks. The other... can't.

VoxRationis
2014-08-14, 10:19 PM
It might take decades to make that shot with the cannon. Infantrymen got slaughtered by cannon because they marched in large groups towards entrenched enemy forces. That was sometimes a good plan and sometimes not, but that's not going to be a good plan for wizards. A wizard capable of casting Cloudkill can easily outmaneuver and destroy artillery at effectively no personal risk.

Erik Vale
2014-08-14, 10:39 PM
Yes, high level wizards trump everything, we know. It's just every caster below level 8 or so become less and less useful over time. However with education I've a feeling that many would become level 1 [or 2] casters or at least grab [Feat for Cantrips] + Precocious apprentice.

However, you're thinking about this wrong. When technology comes to the field, it isn't Wizard vs Wizard with mundanes fighting in the background, it becomes Wizard vs Wizard with a wizard having to also try and protect his non-artilary-toting mundanes vs artilary bombardments and guns etc. Technology isn't going to off the wizard much better than swords and sorcery was for quite a while [ICBMs, Drones, Stealth Bombers, 1.5 Mile snipe shots will eventually raise the 'I am a Physical God' level for casters above 8, but those aren't going to just suddenly occur], but it's going to make wizards jobs harder.



Think of it this way, Europe goes to colonize Africa, except this time both sides have magic. Who's going to win, the side with A high level wizard, a few low level wizards, and guns, or the side with a high level wizard, a apprentice, and a bunch of spear-men/archers? It'll depend on the exact details of the wizard, but odds tend towards the more advanced side.

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 10:40 PM
Assuming the wizard is going to get himself killed in scry and die is vastly underestimating the wizard, who's got an int score in the mid 20s, most likely. Quit assuming the wizard's an idiot. Any reasonably optimized wizard will take out the factory without suffering a single hp of damage.

Erik Vale
2014-08-14, 10:43 PM
Yes, but at what level?

Again, it's not about technology offing wizards truly, it's about technology making a wizards job harder and harder, and creating lots of slightly weaker wizards who're going to help keep the big wizards in check.

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 10:48 PM
And we haven't even thrown Clerics and Druids into it yet. Druids, who are probably opposed to all technology on general principle (each technological step takes people further from nature...) and Clerics, well, depends on what god. Heironeus and Hextor approve of technology cause it makes war easier, but I doubt Kord's clerics like it so much, as it deemphasizes personal strength.

veti
2014-08-14, 11:08 PM
It might take decades to make that shot with the cannon. Infantrymen got slaughtered by cannon because they marched in large groups towards entrenched enemy forces. That was sometimes a good plan and sometimes not, but that's not going to be a good plan for wizards. A wizard capable of casting Cloudkill can easily outmaneuver and destroy artillery at effectively no personal risk.

'Cloudkill' doesn't destroy artillery - it just kills the crew (unless I have the forethought to issue them with gas masks, which I probably will after the first couple of times). And the whole point of artillery is that you don't need years of training to make a big bang - anyone can pick it up in a day or two.

So sure the wizard can outmanoeuvre a cannon. She can probably outmanoeuvre and destroy, what, 20 a day, without more than a very slight risk to herself. But I can keep on wheeling up new cannon basically forever, and sooner or later that "very slight" risk is going to materialise and then it's all over. And even if her lucky streak outlasts the city... the city is still rubble.

No matter how great one individual may be, a rapidly renewable resource is going to win out eventually. That's why humans eclipse elves and slay dragons. And why we don't have to compete with dinosaurs.


Assuming the wizard is going to get himself killed in scry and die is vastly underestimating the wizard, who's got an int score in the mid 20s, most likely. Quit assuming the wizard's an idiot. Any reasonably optimized wizard will take out the factory without suffering a single hp of damage.

You're the one who introduced the clause "and die". And, I might add, there's a reason those words are canonically, no pun intended, included in the tactic description: it's, inherently, a damn' dangerous thing to do.

It's like, I dunno, Spiderman dodging bullets. He may be way, way awesome at it, but he still has to be lucky every single time, I only need to be lucky once. It's crazy to assume it won't happen sooner or later (https://twitter.com/hashtag/diceshaming).

VoxRationis
2014-08-14, 11:09 PM
Wrong. Hextor would encourage the industrialization of war, but Heironeous is the god of valor. He would oppose the weapons that render chivalry obsolete and encourage generals to lead from a mile back.
Also, the lack of required training is not the point of artillery. It is the point of firearms. Artillery-use is in fact a complicated endeavor which requires a fair amount of dedicated artillery.

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 11:13 PM
...would he? He's pretty practical.

Besides, tell me an RL army trooper who hit the beach on D Day wasn't valorous. Go on. Tell me.

Sartharina
2014-08-15, 12:40 AM
You don't use artillery against Wizards. Those are used against wizard underlings. You use small arms against wizards - whether a rush from assault-rifle wielding infantry, a snipe from a distant marksman (Even "Long" range attacks aren't as long as a high-accuracy rifle can shoot), or shot in the back by a concealed pistol.

The initial disparity between the capability of mages and the capabilities of technology means the technology needs to repeatedly be sent back to the drawing board after initial prototypes of a concept are made, before they're put into production. It probably does take years instead of the months I initially estimated, though. However - effectively, they start with Swords+Bows+crossbows+cavalry+animal-drawn vehicles one day, and after a few years of pumping out experimental prototypes at a feverish rate (Because there's a high bar they have to reach, instead of them having to just push a bar their already close to - the capabilities of magic give them clear design goals and problems to be solved), and suddenly they've got rapid-fire weapons (either repeaters, or even full auto), mobile artillery, and versatile munitions. It'll actually probably be a hodge-podge of technologies, as some prototypes don't pan out, and other breakthroughs are 'misapplied'. You might end up with things like Robin Hood's Patriot Arrow, using bows to launch small rockets for extra range and impact power.

Erik Vale
2014-08-15, 01:38 AM
You had me up until that very last sentence. *Checks Distance* Longest shots recorded are of either 1.5 miles [5280ft] or 1.5 kilometers [3280.something]. It'd take a level 31 wizard with a long spell and the double distance metamagic to get 1.5km, and if you're dealing with a level 31 wizard you have different problems. Like what name they prefer you to use when you pray to them [assuming they desired to be worshipped]. If 1.5 Miles, that's a level 56, in which case they have about as many levels as most stated gods, and are likely worshipped no matter what.

Oh, and the records been standing from either WW1 or 2, so it's not 'cutting edge' guns that are reaching that far, that's any high powered sniper. So now the questions are what level is a sniper, how many can you get to fire at a wizard, and what calibre. Have a wizard load them up with defences, snipe, and then charge with a wizard.
Mindblank is one of them to hide them from divinations, that way the snipers can't be found straight afterwards should the wizard survive and to prevent foresight, this means only active spells and anti-death/combat/being shot at contingencies come into play. This should get you all all non-planar binding-abusing casters up until they get 6th level spells [so level 13+ should be resistant to this].

Edit: And because this is DnD, you can have distance enchanted rifles to double the distance. You may triple it depending on whether or not you wish to treat the records as being made by people with the equivalent of far shot IRL [In which case, good luck retaliating from 4.5M/kM out]. Now the only problem is how exactly are you spotting him, do you have a high powered telescope for a sight? Is there a wall in the way? Or a mountain?

Angelalex242
2014-08-15, 01:53 AM
Presumably, at that point, you've got 'crystal scopes of scrying' to the maximum range of the gun. You're probably enchanting this scope to allow people to see 4.5 miles, and it might even have x ray capabilities to see that wizard behind some walls, or in his tower, or whatever.

Of course, once you start enchanting the tech, it's not just technology anymore. It's magitek, of the Final Fantasy 6 variety. Or MAKO tech, like Final Fantasy 7.

Erik Vale
2014-08-15, 02:25 AM
Telescopes still get that far [well, further, resolution and distance can vary a lot]. Yes, Magitech will be strictly better than Truetech, but Truetech will still work.

Angelalex242
2014-08-15, 02:28 AM
Then again, how ABOUT those magitek inventions?

What if you've got Final Fantasy 6 style Magiteksuits, complete with fire/ice/lightning beams and a heal ability? And even better stuff for people with arcane magic (like Terra).

Converted to D&D, we're probably talking about something that duplicates Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Cone of Cold (except the damage caps on Fireball and Lightning Bolt are now equal to that of cone of cold.) And the healing ability can be thought of as cure critical wounds.

The 4 'special' abilities, only available to arcane casters...

would include an AOE Poison spell (Mass Poison) combined with an AOE Cause Disease (Bio Blaster), Finger of Death (Banisher), Mass Insanity (Confuser), and finally...Mage's Sword (Tek Missile)

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Magitek_(Command)