Need a PrC for good Nar Demonbinder and dragon hunting

[Snowbluff]

So like I'll take like 11 levels of like Paladin of Freedom and fall into... Whiteguard (refluffed Blackguard as a goody two shoes, has skirmish), because the DM doesn't want me to roleplay a flip flopper.

Illumian Paladin1/WhiteGuard10/NarDemonbinder2 and then what?!
Sigils:
Aesh
Krau
Str: 16 Dex: 13 Con: 15 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 17
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
Flaw: Power Attack
Flaw: Cleave
1: Improved Sunder
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Travel Devotion
9: Spell Focus Conjuration
12: Arcane Prep (for corrupt and sanctified spells 4-8 on nar, it's a pretty big maybe)
15: Arcane Strike (duh!)
18:

[dextercorvia]

Huh, your group allows more than two Power Sigils?

Malconvoker seems like it would work for you.

[Mountain]

I second the Malconvoker, mostly because I played one and loved it. (It was a cleric entry though.)

It would help to know what you want to do, exactly.

[vhfforever]

One of my favorite old builds to read over was an NPC very similar to what you have so far (and blasted if I can't find the link at the moment while at work), but it finished off simply using Spellsword and Eldritch Knight.

If you have the spell requirements for it, Abjurant Champion could fill 5 of your levels. Warblade or Crusader 1 and Jade Phoenix Mage could be potential finishers, as well.

[Yogibear41]

How are you as a "good" person taking levels in Nar Demonbinder?

[Sian]

Power Sigils doesn't work the way you think it does (although admittedly the text is horribly written). It depends on Character Level, not Class Level and hence its only possible to get 2 Sigils (check any of the stated Illumians in the book)

[KingAtomsk]

How are you as a "good" person taking levels in Nar Demonbinder?

Nar Demonbinder has no alignment restriction on entry. The mechanics of the class also lend very much towards role-playing a good character tricking or forcing demons into helping fight other demonic forces.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"On attaining 2nd level in any class, an illumian gains a second different power sigil, and the bonus granted by each power sigil increases to +2."
A second power sigil is not the same as an additional power sigil. You cannot gain a second power sigil more than once, because it's only a second one if you've only got one. There is no way to gain more than two power sigils, because nothing grants you one beyond your first or second one.

You have Whiteguard 11 there, but even when trading in Paladin levels for (variant) Blackguard levels, you would need to have a character level of at least 21st (epic) to be able to gain more than ten levels of the class.

Definitely Malconvoker, so you can still summon/call and make deals with evil outsiders without risking your alignment. Barring that, I would recommend Arcane Disciple for the Summoning domain, to take Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm).

[Snowbluff]

Sorry about the sigils. I misread the rules because it was really late. Mea culpa. Aeshkrau it is. Same deal with the 11th (wth?) level of WG.

I've considered Abjurant Champion. I don't know how useful it will be. Most of my Whiteguards are level and lower.

Another option is binder into anima mage. The prereqs will be still, since I'll need the +2 binding feat, a metamagic, and something to get second level arcane spells. Preferably I'll have Arcane Strike at level 12.

I have Planar Binding, so Malconvoker is a little less appealing to me for feats. Thaumaturgist sounds pretty sweet, though. EDIT: I might default to this after taking some extra Nar levels. I'll have to count up some skill points and see if I can keep bluff maxed out.

[dextercorvia]

I would think being able to call/summon demons without falling (as a Paladin/Whiteguard) would be at least worth the dip. And once you've dipped, going to 5 for the extra summons makes sense to me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just to note, a Blackguard has no code of conduct, he can do whatever he wants, including feeding the poor and helping old ladies cross the street, etc. A Blackguard who does good will never fall, so a Whiteguard will similarly have no code of conduct and should never be at risk of falling, even if he does evil acts such as summoning/calling evil creatures. You would need to be a fallen Paladin to trade in your levels in the first place, so the character won't be under any code of conduct at all from the time he starts taking Nar Demonbinder.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, it's just my DM didn't want to roleplay falling as a paladin, being evil, and then ignoring the evil requirement on Blackguard (despite it not mattering).

So I'm just going to ditch my Code of Conduct for better powers when I hit 11.

I think I want the charisma check penalty from malconvoker. Between that, my cha, and a circlet of persuasion, I should be able to handle most summons. Nar Demonbinder's +4 on the opposed check is pretty good, too...

Btw, we'll be going some dragon hunting.

[Sian]

wouldn't it actually be simpler to jump Holy Liberator (Complete Divine) instead? From what i read, short of the lack of level trading available, that's what you're looking for allready

[Snowbluff]

The level trading is pretty much key. :p

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to qualify with full BAB, you could totally go (Wildshape) Mystic Ranger 8 into it with Magical Training and Sword of the Arcane Order, or Duskblade 13 into it with Arcane Disciple: Summoner or Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. With the Mystic Ranger entry I'm sure you could go Nar Demonbinder into Prestige Bard and then Fochlucan Lyrist, but it would take a lot of effort. I doubt any of this is pertinent to what you're looking for, but I sort of like the idea of a Duskblade 13/ Nar Demonbinder + PrCs 7, he can arcane channel with a full attack and still gets max Nar Demonbinder spellcasting.

[Piggy Knowles]

One of my favorite old builds to read over was an NPC very similar to what you have so far (and blasted if I can't find the link at the moment while at work), but it finished off simply using Spellsword and Eldritch Knight.

If you have the spell requirements for it, Abjurant Champion could fill 5 of your levels. Warblade or Crusader 1 and Jade Phoenix Mage could be potential finishers, as well.

You're probably thinking of PhaedrusXY's blackguard demonbinder. I'm on my phone now, but I'm pretty sure the build was Fighter 1/Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/NDB 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 5. He built it before Complete Mage came out, though.

Regarding the OP...

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil could fit. It gives you several potent abilities, it maximizes your casting, and the protection theme would fit alongside a whiteguard. Plus, summoning and veils is not a bad combination. Your BAB will take a hit, but if you take Nar Demonbinder 1/Iot7V 2/Legacy Champion 6 you should still reach +16.

EDIT: Regarding B_F's suggestion, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling) is a build that uses that exact method.

[Yogibear41]

The level trading is pretty much key. :p

Using Retraining rules you can be a 10th level holy liberator at level 10. If you are going to mix and match classes to optimize you might as well do this too.


Nar Demonbinder requires: Nongood alignment

(doesn't say so in the book, but it does in the free web version of it so who knos)

[Piggy Knowles]

The free web version is full of mistakes. It also lists the feat pre-req as Greater Spell Focus (book version only requires regular SF), and omits a whole line from the table.

[Snowbluff]

If you want to qualify with full BAB, you could totally go (Wildshape) Mystic Ranger 8 into it with Magical Training and Sword of the Arcane Order, or Duskblade 13 into it with Arcane Disciple: Summoner or Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. With the Mystic Ranger entry I'm sure you could go Nar Demonbinder into Prestige Bard and then Fochlucan Lyrist, but it would take a lot of effort. I doubt any of this is pertinent to what you're looking for, but I sort of like the idea of a Duskblade 13/ Nar Demonbinder + PrCs 7, he can arcane channel with a full attack and still gets max Nar Demonbinder spellcasting.
DB/ND? That's pretty interesting. I might consider that in the future.

Normally I;d be like "Shadow Maur DB 13 recursive shadow pounce!"

You're probably thinking of PhaedrusXY's blackguard demonbinder. I'm on my phone now, but I'm pretty sure the build was Fighter 1/Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/NDB 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 5. He built it before Complete Mage came out, though.

Regarding the OP...

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil could fit. It gives you several potent abilities, it maximizes your casting, and the protection theme would fit alongside a whiteguard. Plus, summoning and veils is not a bad combination. Your BAB will take a hit, but if you take Nar Demonbinder 1/Iot7V 2/Legacy Champion 6 you should still reach +16.

EDIT: Regarding B_F's suggestion, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling) is a build that uses that exact method.
Initiate? Wow, that's a good play. I'll take a look at this stuff.

The free web version is full of mistakes. It also lists the feat pre-req as Greater Spell Focus (book version only requires regular SF), and omits a whole line from the table.

Yerp.

[Quiet Wizard]

After Illumian Paladin1/WhiteGuard10/NarDemonbinder2 ............

I would go Sacred Exorcist 4, then Spellsword 1.

You end up with BAB +18 (Sacred Exorcist gives +3 BAB in 4 levels and Spellsword is full BAB) assuming your remaining 2 pre-epic levels are at +1 BAB each. Those 5 extra levels take you all the way to the end of Nar Demonbinder's 7 spellcaster levels.

Sacred Exorcist and Spellsword also both give you d8 HD to make frontlining a bit more comfortable.

[vhfforever]

You're probably thinking of PhaedrusXY's blackguard demonbinder. I'm on my phone now, but I'm pretty sure the build was Fighter 1/Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/NDB 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 5. He built it before Complete Mage came out, though.

You nailed it, that's the one.

[Larkas]

Hmmm... Consider taking Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline feat (like Fey Bloodline). You might also be able to salvage some stuff from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling), though note that Piggy did use the online version of the class.

[Jeff the Green]

I would think being able to call/summon demons without falling (as a Paladin/Whiteguard) would be at least worth the dip. And once you've dipped, going to 5 for the extra summons makes sense to me.

While it doesn't seem to be relevant for this build, Malconvoker doesn't work that way. It does not make casting an [Evil] summoning spell a non-evil act. It merely removes the mechanical prohibition on casting them when your alignment/deity would normally prohibit it and ensures that committing these small acts of evil neither puts you on a slippery slope nor metaphysically stains you. A Paladin/Malconvoker still falls if he summons a dretch.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmmm... Consider taking Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline feat (like Fey Bloodline). You might also be able to salvage some stuff from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling), though note that Piggy did use the online version of the class.

I'm pretty sure the only reference to the web version of NDB that build has is where I said the build needed to be no good - but that has as much to do with the focus on channeling necrotic cysts (an explicitly evil act) as it does the web version of NDB.


While it doesn't seem to be relevant for this build, Malconvoker doesn't work that way. It does not make casting an [Evil] summoning spell a non-evil act. It merely removes the mechanical prohibition on casting them when your alignment/deity would normally prohibit it and ensures that committing these small acts of evil neither puts you on a slippery slope nor metaphysically stains you. A Paladin/Malconvoker still falls if he summons a dretch.

True - you'd have to mix in some Gray Guard with your Whiteguard to make something like that work. But as has been pointed out upthread, the Blackguard doesn't have a code of conduct, so if the Whiteguard is exactly the same but for an alignment and palette shift, then it might not be an issue.

[Snowbluff]

And skirmish. D;

Hmmm... Consider taking Versatile Spellcaster and a Bloodline feat (like Fey Bloodline). You might also be able to salvage some stuff from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling), though note that Piggy did use the online version of the class.

Hm... indeed. However, we have trouble fitting in arcane strike early.

So how do I get my low level bonus slots for Nar Demonbinder?

[captain fubar]

might I suggest googleing "merry gishmas"

edit: upon closer inspection I see that it has already been linked several times