Bloodline Breath Weapons

[bekeleven]

These things are a doozy. I have two questions: One, how are they used; and two; how are they lost.

First question: Consider, for instance, the Red Dragon Breath Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#dragonRed). It's listed as "30-ft. cone of fire; 6d8 damage; Reflex half (DC 10 + one-half HD + Con modifier)." No use limits listed. Now, literally 6 lines up on the chart is "Locate Object 1/Day." In fact, 57 abilities granted by bloodlines are useable 1/Day, and 3 are useable 1/Week. So it's not that they forgot to put that on all 3 breath weapons.

I'd default to true dragon limits (1D4 rounds), except that it's (Ex). My thinking is that you can use it as a standard action whenever you want. I mean, how can a non-scaling 6D8 break the game at level 16?

Second question: Breath weapons aren't explicitly lost in alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). Rather, supernatural abilities are retained unless they are breath weapons: "The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks)." You have to use the rules for extraordinary abilities to adjudicate this power.

For extraordinary abilities, you retain all (Ex) SA (which this is) that are derived from class levels. Bloodline levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels) refers to them repeatedly as "Class levels of bloodline." It then goes on to spell out the ways that bloodline levels differ from class levels. In other words: Class levels are the base, and they differ in ways X, Y, and Z.

Neither X, nor Y, nor Z relates to interaction with alternate form. Ergo, I posit that:

1) Bloodline breath weapons are useable at will, and

2) Bloodline breath weapons are retained in wild shape.

Thoughts?

[sleepyphoenixx]

After reading through the RAW i have to agree with your conclusions. There isn't really room for interpretation here.

There's not really much room for abuse here. On its own the BW is pretty pathetic, both in damage and in range. It also comes way to late to really get breath feats on there to really take advantage of it unless you resort to Dark Chaos shuffle. Even then at the level you get it it's not all that impressive.

[Ruethgar]

Wow, I never realized that those breath weapons were Ex. That is super broken. Unless otherwise listed, Ex abilities are Free actions, that is what makes the Muckdweller so broken because nothing can get near it without being blinded.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Wow, I never realized that those breath weapons were Ex. That is super broken. Unless otherwise listed, Ex abilities are Free actions, that is what makes the Muckdweller so broken because nothing can get near it without being blinded.

Where do you get that idea?

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.
A breath weapon is hardly a reactive ability.

[Ruethgar]

The WotC Glossary gave me that idea. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?term=Glossary_dnd_extraordinaryability&x=dnd/glossary

[sleepyphoenixx]

The WotC Glossary gave me that idea. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?term=Glossary_dnd_extraordinaryability&x=dnd/glossary

I looked it up and that's the rule as late as MM5, which is the primary source afaik. I wonder where the version in the SRD comes from?

Anyway, as a free action it actually becomes somewhat useful. I wouldn't exactly describe 6d8/reflex half damage per round as super broken at level 16, even as a free action.
As a standard action it's a complete waste of time.

[Curmudgeon]

My thinking is that you can use it as a standard action whenever you want.
The basic rules for breath weapons mostly back you up.

Breath Weapon

A creature attacking with a breath weapon is actually expelling something from its mouth (rather than conjuring it by means of a spell or some other magical effect). Most creatures with breath weapons are limited to a number of uses per day or by a minimum length of time that must pass between uses. Such creatures are usually smart enough to save their breath weapon until they really need it.

Using a breath weapon is typically a standard action.

Do note this, though, from the beginning of the discussion of bloodlines (Unearthed Arcana, page 19):
The DM should decide the truth behind the bloodline, though the character need never know why he is different. That gives your DM freedom to apply a limit (matching the bloodline ancestor, for example).