...And you don't even have the ritual but a friend of a friend does.

[Socksy]

In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html) comic, Tarquin mentions a Gate, an abomination, and a ritual which Nale does not have, but instead it's owned by a friend of a friend.

Who is the friend and who is their friend? (Spoilers in white text)

Is the friend Sabine and her friend someone on the IFCC?

Is it Qarr, and does V somehow know bits of the ritual?

Do they and Redcloak have a mutual friend?

I mean, I know Team Xykon have at least one half of the ritual...

[Domino Quartz]

You don't need to spoiler anything, you know.
Team Evil has both halves of the ritual - the part Redcloak wrote down for Xykon (the arcane half), and the part the Crimson Mantle imparts to his mind (the divine half). Nale was probably talking about Redcloak, and Tarquin most likely did not literally mean that he thought the person Nale was referring to was actually his friend. He most likely meant it in a way similar to the way you might use it when talking about the verifiability of an Urban Legend (for instance), where "friend of a friend" means "you heard it from someone you know, but you don't know where they got it from."

[Werbaer]

In this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html) comic, Tarquin mentions a Gate, an abomination, and a ritual which Nale does not have, but instead it's owned by a friend of a friend.
821 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html):
"Tarquin: And you know this ritual?"
"Nale: No. But I know who does. I've worked with them before. You won't get it from them without my help."

That's all Tarquin knows about the conection.

[ChristianSt]

"friend of a friend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_a_friend)" is a phrase used to say that the information is unreliable. By using that phrase Tarquin implies that Nale actually doesn't have access to that ritual.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's not meant to be taken literally. Team Evil is the group with the ritual.

[halfeye]

It's not meant to be taken literally.

I think it is.


Team Evil is the group with the ritual.

You can refine that. Nale has worked for Xykon ("friend") and Redcloak has the ritual and works with Xykon ("friend" of a "friend").

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You can even refine that. Nale has worked for Xykon ("friend") and Redcloak has the ritual and works with Xykon ("friend" of a "friend").

For some reason I thought that Xykon had gotten his half back (which is why I said Team Evil and not Redcloak), but looking at the strip where Redcloak talks about killing Tsukiko, it looks like he never he actually gave it back.

[ChristianSt]

For some reason I thought that Xykon had gotten his half back (which is why I said Team Evil and not Redcloak), but looking at the strip where Redcloak talks about killing Tsukiko, it looks like he never he actually gave it back.

I think that Tsukiko only had a copy of it.

Either way Redcloak is the only one who has the complete ritual, though he only can cast one half. And for practical purposes Xykon imo should be considered to have the arcane half.


You can refine that. Nale has worked for Xykon ("friend") and Redcloak has the ritual and works with Xykon ("friend" of a "friend").

Even calling Redcloak and Xykon "friends" is a stretch. Calling Nale and Xykon "friends" would nothing but a lie.

[Gift Jeraff]

Obviously one of Thog's friends in the Barbarians' Guild.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that Tsukiko only had a copy of it.

Oh, yeah, Redcloak calls it a copy. Okay, then Team Evil works.

[snowblizz]

Oh, yeah, Redcloak calls it a copy. Okay, then Team Evil works.

Since the "original" only exists in RC head, thanks to the Cloak, everything else is technically a copy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Since the "original" only exists in RC head, thanks to the Cloak, everything else is technically a copy.

That is true. However, since Redcloak says it's a copy of Xykon's half, it seems likely that he is referring to the ritual Xykon keeps with him.

[halfeye]

Even calling Redcloak and Xykon "friends" is a stretch. Calling Nale and Xykon "friends" would nothing but a lie.
That's why I put "friend" in quotes.

[littlebum2002]

Even calling Redcloak and Xykon "friends" is a stretch. Calling Nale and Xykon "friends" would nothing but a lie.

True, but to Tarquin, being that he isn't NEARLY as intimately familiar with those relationships as we are, "a friend of a friend" is close enough to "the co-worker of your former employer" to be true. I think the "friend of a friend" was directly referring to Redcloak, not as a figure of speech.

[snowblizz]

That is true. However, since Redcloak says it's a copy of Xykon's half, it seems likely that he is referring to the ritual Xykon keeps with him.

What Xykon has or hasn't is largely immaterial though? He can't do jack with it anyway, nor can anyone else it would seem. When it would be relevant if he hasn't got "his copy" then RC will provide one.

X doesn't seem to be entirely trusting of RC, which show he's smarter than we give him credit for sometimes. Which kind leads to the question, is there a Team Evil as such. The only one actually with the ritual is RC.

[NerdyKris]

Why are we arguing about the semantics of "copy"?

If it was a copy of the copy, then Xykon still has it.

If it was the only copy, then Xykon would simply ask for it back from Redcloak, or go into Tsukiko's room to get it, or whatever.

Why does it matter? There's no logical reason for Xkyon not to make sure he still has his half of the ritual after Tsukiko's death. It doesn't benefit Red Cloak at all to keep it from him, since he still wants him to cast his half.

[Socksy]

Oh, thanks! I totally forgot about Nale working for Xykon at the start.:smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smallsmile::smal lsmile::smallsmile::smallredface:

EDIT: I spoilered stuff in case anyone still reading through Miko being a prat or Samantha's bandit camp or something stumbled onto the thread. i didn't want to say too much about where the ritual could be. :smallsmile:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What Xykon has or hasn't is largely immaterial though? He can't do jack with it anyway, nor can anyone else it would seem. When it would be relevant if he hasn't got "his copy" then RC will provide one.

X doesn't seem to be entirely trusting of RC, which show he's smarter than we give him credit for sometimes. Which kind leads to the question, is there a Team Evil as such. The only one actually with the ritual is RC.
I think you explained your point a little better here. I would still say that Team Evil has the ritual, as Xykon is the only one of them who can actually cast the arcane half at this point, and he appears to posses a copy.


EDIT: I spoilered stuff in case anyone still reading through Miko being a prat or Samantha's bandit camp or something stumbled onto the thread. i didn't want to say too much about where the ritual could be. :smallsmile:
Anyone on a forum dedicated to discussing a work should come in expecting spoilers of said work. If they don't want to be spoilered then they should finish the comic first. The only instance where I would put in spoilers is for book-only content.

[halfeye]

I think you explained your point a little better here. I would still say that Team Evil has the ritual, as Xykon is the only one of them who can actually cast the arcane half at this point, and he appears to posses a copy.
Is team evil an entity though?

Redcloak has all of the ritual, even though he can only cast half of it himself.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Is team evil an entity though?

Redcloak has all of the ritual, even though he can only cast half of it himself.

Team Evil is a group of people with the shared goal of getting access to a Gate. Although the members of the team have different ideas of what they want to do with the Gate. I say that they have the ritual because only together can they cast the ritual.

[mouser9169]

Tarquin was just showing Nale the flaws in his plan. "Friend of a friend" is a very common American idiom and should not be taken literally any more than someone asking, "What's up?"

[Kish]

Team Evil is a group of people with the shared goal of getting access to a Gate. Although the members of the team have different ideas of what they want to do with the Gate. I say that they have the ritual because only together can they cast the ritual.
That's not strictly accurate. Xykon cannot cast the ritual without Redcloak. But Redcloak could cast the ritual with any mid-level arcane spellcaster, if he got past his emotional investment in Xykon and the equally daunting problem of how to tell Xykon "You're fired" and survive the experience.

[Lord Raziere]

the weird thing is though, is that since we were never shown Xykon and Redcloak hiring the Linear Guild, we will probably never know how the two interacted with each other, when they clearly did. The questions, the burning questions I have about a hypothetical conversation between Nale and Redcloak, or Nale and Xykon....will never happen because the narrative is woven exactly so that Team Evil and Linear Guild never meet again, now that I think about it, much of the comic is based around certain teams of people who have no idea about things that some other team has a good idea about, that they can't find out due to the vast distances and lack of long range communication involved.

which is real frustrating sometimes.

Edit: yeah, Redcloak could've used Nale as the guy to help him cast the ritual. still has sorcerer class, and since he is a young incompetent villain rather than an old competent one like Xykon, it would be much easier for Redcloak to kill off Nale once the ritual is done.

[Forum Explorer]

That's not strictly accurate. Xykon cannot cast the ritual without Redcloak. But Redcloak could cast the ritual with any mid-level arcane spellcaster, if he got past his emotional investment in Xykon and the equally daunting problem of how to tell Xykon "You're fired" and survive the experience.

I thought you needed to be close to epic, basically level 17 or higher?

[Kish]

I thought you needed to be close to epic, basically level 17 or higher?
Many people somehow got that idea, even though it's never stated anywhere and Redcloak was planning to cast his half of the ritual at Lirian's Gate before he was high enough level to have sixth-level spells.

[orrion]

I thought you needed to be close to epic, basically level 17 or higher?

How's that work with Redcloak assaulting 3 gates before he was level 17?

[Jasdoif]

I thought you needed to be close to epic, basically level 17 or higher?Redcloak theorized that creating a Gate (to replace the Lirian's Recently-Demolished-Gate) would require two epic casters, along with years/decades of research.

He said earlier that the ritual required a high-level arcane caster...but "high-level" isn't necessarily "close to epic", I think 15+ would be considered "high-level". Redcloak wasn't even level 11 at the time he and Xykon made the attempt on Lirian's gate, so I have to believe the requirements for the divine caster are different.

[Phylactery]

hmm... i wonder what happened to Tsukiko?

I mean, I know she's dead, but might one of the Directors have gotten hold of her soul?

She could have memorized half the spell, and seems to have deduced at least some stuff about the other half. and they'd be friends of a friend, as they're his girlfriend's bosses.

I recon it was just a turn of phrase tho... 'you don't have the ritual, but, like, totally know someone who does'.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's not strictly accurate. Xykon cannot cast the ritual without Redcloak. But Redcloak could cast the ritual with any mid-level arcane spellcaster, if he got past his emotional investment in Xykon and the equally daunting problem of how to tell Xykon "You're fired" and survive the experience.
Yes, that is true. Technically Redcloak doesn't need Xykon, but I find him actually getting rid of Xykon before the plan is completed to be an unlikely prospect, due to the reasons you mentioned, to the point where I didn't really think it necessary to include.

[Jasdoif]

Yes, that is true. Technically Redcloak doesn't need Xykon, but I find him actually getting rid of Xykon before the plan is completed to be an unlikely prospect, due to the reasons you mentioned, to the point where I didn't really think it necessary to include.I wouldn't call it unlikely. Now that Operation Fauxlactery is in place, Redcloak is in prime position to dispose of Xykon if his current physical form gets destroyed for any reason. Heck, I think Redcloak will need to dispose of Xykon if that happens, unless he really wants to count on Xykon being forgiving about the deception involving the phylactery and its high-quality-impersonator. I'm not putting any bets on Redcloak completing the ritual if Xykon kills (and probably reanimates) him.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I wouldn't call it unlikely. Now that Operation Fauxlactery is in place, Redcloak is in prime position to dispose of Xykon if his current physical form gets destroyed for any reason. Heck, I think Redcloak will need to dispose of Xykon if that happens, unless he really wants to count on Xykon being forgiving about the deception involving the phylactery and its high-quality-impersonator. I'm not putting any bets on Redcloak completing the ritual if Xykon kills (and probably reanimates) him.

Hmmm, I had forgotten about that part. I'll change my stance to I don't think Redcloak would rid himself of Xykon before the plan is completed, unless it becomes a matter of life or death for Redcloak (i.e. Xykon is killed and will discover his duplicity). I should have been more specific in my original statement.

[Socksy]

Operation Fauxlactery

Wow.
I'm not sure how I feel about this pun.
I think jealousy that I didn't think of it first.

[Lord Raziere]

I wouldn't call it unlikely. Now that Operation Fauxlactery is in place, Redcloak is in prime position to dispose of Xykon if his current physical form gets destroyed for any reason. Heck, I think Redcloak will need to dispose of Xykon if that happens, unless he really wants to count on Xykon being forgiving about the deception involving the phylactery and its high-quality-impersonator. I'm not putting any bets on Redcloak completing the ritual if Xykon kills (and probably reanimates) him.

Oh, Xykon won't be forgiving, and he will have a completely different secret to be mad about: the fact that Redcloak has lied about the mission for 30+ years and that Xykon will get jack squat once its completed. it will be the moment when Xykon realizes that thirty years of work and the sacrifice of the perhaps the last human pleasure in his life, was all for nothing. that he did the ritual, became a lich, raised an army, did all that work of trying to take so many gates.....all so that the person he thought was just his lieutenant with a wimpy "evil for a good cause" motivation was actually the real mastermind at work, and played him like a sucker, longer than it takes for someone to grow up into an adult, could enact the real plan all along.

and SoD spoilers:

Redcloak does not care if he dies in the process of all this. He cares if he succeeds. If the Dark One
gets the Gate and can "negotiate" with the other gods to give the goblins an equal footing, he has already succeeded in his eyes. If he can win against Xykon and live to lead his people into a new age as their messiah who brought them out of being XP fodder? that will just be a bonus- particularly since he already established Gobbotopia and made people recognize it as a nation.

oh but you say, the widening rifts and the Snarl will come through and kill everyone. Redcloak cares not. If that happens, the Dark One will be there along with the rest of the gods to make sure the goblins get a fair shake the next time the world is remade.

so in a way, if Redcloak completes the ritual? he will have already won. what happens next after that is how he wins. even if Xykon kills Redcloak and vows to kill the entire goblin race in retribution, that will just mean that Xykon is the new BBEG of a group of goblin PC's who go forth to try and stop him and eventually defeat him to put a stop to his genocidal ways, probably while finding out dark secrets about Redcloak while they do so, from going through that astral fortress for nothing, to eventually finding out about Redcloak's goals and his life and having to accept their great messiah was an evil analytical mastermind who manipulated everyone around him for a goal that might've destroyed the world.

hm.....actually that would make a good fan-fic.....

[Jasdoif]

Oh, Xykon won't be forgiving, and he will have a completely different secret to be mad about: the fact that Redcloak has lied about the mission for 30+ years and that Xykon will get jack squat once its completed. it will be the moment when Xykon realizes that thirty years of work and the sacrifice of the perhaps the last human pleasure in his life, was all for nothing. that he did the ritual, became a lich, raised an army, did all that work of trying to take so many gates.....all so that the person he thought was just his lieutenant with a wimpy "evil for a good cause" motivation was actually the real mastermind at work, and played him like a sucker, longer than it takes for someone to grow up into an adult, could enact the real plan all along.

and SoD spoilers:

Redcloak does not care if he dies in the process of all this. He cares if he succeeds. If the Dark One
gets the Gate and can "negotiate" with the other gods to give the goblins an equal footing, he has already succeeded in his eyes. If he can win against Xykon and live to lead his people into a new age as their messiah who brought them out of being XP fodder? that will just be a bonus- particularly since he already established Gobbotopia and made people recognize it as a nation.

oh but you say, the widening rifts and the Snarl will come through and kill everyone. Redcloak cares not. If that happens, the Dark One will be there along with the rest of the gods to make sure the goblins get a fair shake the next time the world is remade.

so in a way, if Redcloak completes the ritual? he will have already won. what happens next after that is how he wins. even if Xykon kills Redcloak and vows to kill the entire goblin race in retribution, that will just mean that Xykon is the new BBEG of a group of goblin PC's who go forth to try and stop him and eventually defeat him to put a stop to his genocidal ways, probably while finding out dark secrets about Redcloak while they do so, from going through that astral fortress for nothing, to eventually finding out about Redcloak's goals and his life and having to accept their great messiah was an evil analytical mastermind who manipulated everyone around him for a goal that might've destroyed the world.

hm.....actually that would make a good fan-fic.....
I agree that if the ritual is completed, Redcloak's already won.

But what I was trying to get at was that if Xykon's destroyed (again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html)), his soul won't end up in the fauxlactery in his astral fortress like he's expecting. It'll end up in the real phylactery that Redcloak still has possession of. It takes a lich at most 10 days (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm#theLichsPhylactery) to generate a new body, and the ritual's supposed to take a few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html). Even if Redcloak finds an appropriate arcane caster immediately he won't have time to complete the ritual before Xykon comes back. Unless Redcloak destroys the phylactery and Xykon with it.