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Strigon
2014-08-11, 11:40 AM
Hey, everyone!
I just got into D&D (3.5), and I've been elected as the group's DM - I'm normally the one to take any administrative duties, while the others enjoy the game.
So, on to the topic at hand. We have a group of 5 players, at least three of which must be there for a session to begin. I'm new to D&D, so I'd like to ask some more experienced players for advice.

First, I don't have a great deal of money. Which resources would you recommend for a group that isn't by any means hardcore, or experienced? (We just need enough to get a basic/starter game running between friends.) I have the plot planned out, and the player's handbook, and we ran a session last night. Everyone had fun, but I know if I had resources I could do so much more!

Secondly, two of our group members are kind of reserved and confused (Or at least it seems that way). They had fun, but they just weren't sure exactly what to do. There was a lot of "Can I...", or "I'm just going to follow him, because I'm not sure what else to do". How can I help them break out of their shells, and roleplay/contribute more? Or is it just something that will come with time?

Finally, our group began small (3 people), so in the beginning the plan was for me to DM and run a character. No problem, I'm fairly good at compartmentalizing information.
But now that there's five of us, I seem to be deliberately trying to avoid doing anything useful, just out of fear of metagaming. Should I just stick to DMing, run a couple NPCs to help the party, or just continue as I am?

Thanks for all your advice in advance!

Red Fel
2014-08-11, 12:14 PM
Hey, everyone!
I just got into D&D (3.5), and I've been elected as the group's DM - I'm normally the one to take any administrative duties, while the others enjoy the game.
So, on to the topic at hand. We have a group of 5 players, at least three of which must be there for a session to begin. I'm new to D&D, so I'd like to ask some more experienced players for advice.

Hello! Welcome to what is widely considered to be alternately the most rewarding and most frustrating aspect of the hobby!


First, I don't have a great deal of money. Which resources would you recommend for a group that isn't by any means hardcore, or experienced? (We just need enough to get a basic/starter game running between friends.) I have the plot planned out, and the player's handbook, and we ran a session last night. Everyone had fun, but I know if I had resources I could do so much more!

Well, for one thing, you can use these forums as a sounding board and advice. (In fact, there is a dedicated subforum for 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?59-D-amp-D-3e-3-5e-d20) with a very active, and usually helpful, population.) For another, you can use the SRD as a highly effective resource. (Official version here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), unofficial but still authoritative version here (http://www.d20srd.org/).) Finally, you can find a guide to free D&D, based on various web articles, here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=513.0). (Note that the links in that guide are outdated - you need to replace the "www" in the address with "archive" for them to work.)


Secondly, two of our group members are kind of reserved and confused (Or at least it seems that way). They had fun, but they just weren't sure exactly what to do. There was a lot of "Can I...", or "I'm just going to follow him, because I'm not sure what else to do". How can I help them break out of their shells, and roleplay/contribute more? Or is it just something that will come with time?

A major part of it is experience, yes. Players need to learn their characters' abilities, and a lot of that comes from practice. As to what you can do, I would advise you to sit down with each of them, one-on-one, and go over each item on the character sheet. This will help the player understand what his character can do, in and out of combat; it will also keep you appraised of what each PC can do, and how to arrange encounters accordingly.


Finally, our group began small (3 people), so in the beginning the plan was for me to DM and run a character. No problem, I'm fairly good at compartmentalizing information.
But now that there's five of us, I seem to be deliberately trying to avoid doing anything useful, just out of fear of metagaming. Should I just stick to DMing, run a couple NPCs to help the party, or just continue as I am?

DMPCs are not inherently evil, but they tend to be unpopular on these boards for the point you just made - the fear of metagaming. I personally find DMPCs to be a bit of a crutch; if you can break yourself of the habit of using one early in your DMing career, the temptation will be much less down the road. If the party doesn't need the DMPC (and they generally won't), I'd advise you to dispense with it altogether.


Thanks for all your advice in advance!

Best of luck, and don't forget to keep your good humor about you! Sometimes, the ability to laugh at what happens at the table is what keeps the DM from an extended stay in a padded room.

Strigon
2014-08-11, 12:26 PM
Thank you very much for your advice!
It helps a lot!

Airk
2014-08-11, 12:39 PM
Hey, everyone!
Secondly, two of our group members are kind of reserved and confused (Or at least it seems that way). They had fun, but they just weren't sure exactly what to do. There was a lot of "Can I...", or "I'm just going to follow him, because I'm not sure what else to do". How can I help them break out of their shells, and roleplay/contribute more? Or is it just something that will come with time?

It's partly time, but you need to make sure they get their chances to grow as well; Don't LET them just fade into the background all the time. Of course, you don't want to put them on the spot all the time either, but once in a while, you really need to call them out to take action - have an NPC address a question specifically to one of their characters ("What do you think, Heironomus?"), or put them in a unique situation ("On your way back from services at the temple, you see..."). Just sitting in the background letting others do all the work won't help them improve. Also, try to be forgiving of their "Can I..." questions - try to provide as clear a picture of their options as you can without really SUGGESTING anything. ("Sure, as long as you..." or "Probably not, because...") If you suggest something specific, you run the risk of them saying "Oh, okay, I do that then." so try to prod them along and not shut down their ideas.



Finally, our group began small (3 people), so in the beginning the plan was for me to DM and run a character. No problem, I'm fairly good at compartmentalizing information.
But now that there's five of us, I seem to be deliberately trying to avoid doing anything useful, just out of fear of metagaming. Should I just stick to DMing, run a couple NPCs to help the party, or just continue as I am?

Honestly, it's just kindof a pain to play a GMPC - you get stuck in a lot of "Okay, Rolf! Persuade the guards to let us through!" situations where you need to talk to yourself, or you end up fading into the background a lot because you don't want to steal the limelight from the PCs, etc. I'm running a GMPC in a game right now and I really, REALLY wish I weren't (the game is ending shortly, so I don't care that much), especially since the end result is him barely being present. The benefits of a GMPC are slim and usually just mechanical, so I suggest you avoid it just because being a GM is plenty of work as is. And no, don't give them "a couple of NPCs to help" either - design your content so the PCs can handle it themselves. It's not like you have to worry about some other group of PCs doing it too easily.

Milodiah
2014-08-11, 12:58 PM
Never offhandedly mention anything without being ready for the PCs to make it their next do-or-die objective.

I just now offhandedly mentioned recent dragon migration patterns as inn gossip, and now my players are in the middle of a forest fire while going to meet said dragon and have the 18-charisma half-dragon warmage fluent in draconic try to convince its young to become his cohort and/or mount. All while walking past the dungeon I had prepared for them.

Is it going to work? Probably not. It's not impossible, but it falls in that gray area between impossible and improbable that I like to call "hilarious".

Moral of the story, though, is that you should always have plans for alternate activities the PCs take upon themselves. You don't have to have the tower mapped out, or the dragon itself statted. But what you need to do is make sure you're flexible enough to be able to lay down the world in front of them as they go, even if where they're going is stupid and in the opposite direction of what you hoped. The biggest immersion killer possible is for the players to realize the DM is railroading them not because he has an ulterior motive or a strict metaplot, but because he forgot to draw the stuff on either side of the tracks.

(Also, I'd like to point out the dragon they're meeting is acid breathing. That forest fire? All them.)

Airk
2014-08-11, 02:14 PM
(Also, I'd like to point out the dragon they're meeting is acid breathing. That forest fire? All them.)

That's hilarious, and puts me in mind of a quote from someone I saw earlier today:

"When you play D&D, you're trying for Record of Lodoss War, but you always seem to end up with something more like Slayers."

Strigon
2014-08-11, 02:19 PM
Also, try to be forgiving of their "Can I..." questions - try to provide as clear a picture of their options as you can without really SUGGESTING anything.
That's what I've been doing, good to know I'm not screwing it up!


Never offhandedly mention anything without being ready for the PCs to make it their next do-or-die objective... ...Moral of the story, though, is that you should always have plans for alternate activities the PCs take upon themselves.
I was warned about this by many an article, and planned for it. I'm not sure if my group is just particularly tenacious, or if everyone has it like this, but MAN, they get an idea in their head (even if I never said anything about it/put it there), and they just won't stop! I'll have to take that into consideration for my next session.

Also,

(Also, I'd like to point out the dragon they're meeting is acid breathing. That forest fire? All them.)
This.
"Oh, the vampire retreated to his crypt/coffin to regenerate?
I'll take 20 to MASH IT TO DEATH WITH MY FEET"

P.S. One last thing I noticed was that sometimes, the dice REALLY hate one person. We now have "Thrak the friendly orc", who rolled one on 6 consecutive intimidate checks, and when the shopkeeper asked him to leave, he said "gladly", and for some reason decided to make a diplomacy check on it.
He rolled a natural 20.

Jay R
2014-08-13, 07:00 PM
First, I don't have a great deal of money. Which resources would you recommend for a group that isn't by any means hardcore, or experienced? (We just need enough to get a basic/starter game running between friends.) I have the plot planned out, and the player's handbook, and we ran a session last night. Everyone had fun, but I know if I had resources I could do so much more!

The three main books are the Players Handbook, the Dungeon Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual. But you should also know that a generic form of the 3.5 rules is available as a System Resource Document, here:
d20 srd (http://www.d20srd.org/)

SRD from Wizards of the Coast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)

This is not a copyright violation; Wizards of the Coast has specifically released this content as Open Game Content.


Secondly, two of our group members are kind of reserved and confused (Or at least it seems that way). They had fun, but they just weren't sure exactly what to do. There was a lot of "Can I...", or "I'm just going to follow him, because I'm not sure what else to do". How can I help them break out of their shells, and roleplay/contribute more? Or is it just something that will come with time?

If you ever find a way that consistently works, please let us know.

In the meantime, if they had fun, don't mess with it. Never try to fix a problem until you have a genuine problem to fix.


Should I just stick to DMing, run a couple NPCs to help the party, or just continue as I am?

There are several dangers involved with a DMPC. Some people believe that experienced DMs can avoid them. But somebody new to the system probably can't.

Even in the best scenario, your enjoyment goals are split between succeeding as a character and running a fun and challenging game. I recommend that you drop the DMPC and focus on just running a fun and challenging game, at least until you are comfortable doing that. You have enough goals already; you don't need character goals.

Milodiah
2014-08-13, 07:22 PM
DMPCs, if they even do show up, need to be there with a purpose and as a temporary addition. For example, as the local guide leading them to the enemy fortress in the woods, or as the merchant they're escorting to the next town as a minor quest early in their careers. They should never be a fixture in the party dynamic like a regular PC.

Also, there are two extremes that (almost) inevitably happen: 1) The DM, feeling less restrained by himself than the players are by him, makes himself a little Mary Sue/Marty Stu character that rolls over the challenges for the PCs and/or tries too hard to "keep them in line", or 2) The DM, afraid of becoming type 1, makes a character that isn't notably useful but that the PCs still feel an obligation to protect because hey, it's the DMPC. AKA "the load".

SgtCarnage92
2014-08-13, 08:28 PM
Hey, everyone!
I just got into D&D (3.5), and I've been elected as the group's DM - I'm normally the one to take any administrative duties, while the others enjoy the game.
So, on to the topic at hand. We have a group of 5 players, at least three of which must be there for a session to begin. I'm new to D&D, so I'd like to ask some more experienced players for advice.

Just want to take a moment to welcome you to GMing, it's my favorite part of the hobby by a long shot.


First, I don't have a great deal of money. Which resources would you recommend for a group that isn't by any means hardcore, or experienced? (We just need enough to get a basic/starter game running between friends.) I have the plot planned out, and the player's handbook, and we ran a session last night. Everyone had fun, but I know if I had resources I could do so much more!

This one has already been thoroughly answered and ultimately the SRDs are a great resource. They're easy to search and are also a great knowledge base to go to when you're looking up something quickly. I run mostly Pathfinder, and the PFSRD is a lifesaver when i can't remember what book something is in or what page it's on. Especially in the middle of a meet when I forgot to look up a spell-like ability or something.


Secondly, two of our group members are kind of reserved and confused (Or at least it seems that way). They had fun, but they just weren't sure exactly what to do. There was a lot of "Can I...", or "I'm just going to follow him, because I'm not sure what else to do". How can I help them break out of their shells, and roleplay/contribute more? Or is it just something that will come with time?

It will come with time. Right now all they really have is a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper that don't mean anything. Anything you can do to clarify what those numbers mean can go a long way. Also the "Can I..." is a good thing, encourage it with "Make X check and see," or if it's nothing check related "Yes and then X happens how do you react?" Both of these are rewarding experiences and encourage exploration of the game and world it's set in. One of your jobs as a GM is to take what the players want to do and figure out how to do it with the rules. After awhile it'll evolve into "I do..." and the same rules apply. And sometimes there isn't anything worth doing besides "follow them because I don't know what else to do." Let them follow the other character's leads and encourage them whenever they try to do something and they'll be just fine.


Finally, our group began small (3 people), so in the beginning the plan was for me to DM and run a character. No problem, I'm fairly good at compartmentalizing information.
But now that there's five of us, I seem to be deliberately trying to avoid doing anything useful, just out of fear of metagaming. Should I just stick to DMing, run a couple NPCs to help the party, or just continue as I am?

Phase out your DMPCs as soon as possible, unless they have an explicit purpose with helping new players get into the game. Then phase them out as they start to become more competent with the game and rely on the other players. If the party is doing just fine with you being in the background, that's a good sign that you don't need the DMPC and just come up with a feasible reason for them to leave and then do it. If they're having trouble in combat or whatnot without your DMPC, you need to tweak your encounter design to fit what the party is capable of. I've managed to avoid running a DMPC and while I'll have the occasional guest NPC they rarely stick around for longer than an adventure.


Thanks for all your advice in advance!

You're quite welcome. You'll do fine as long as you remember to have fun and don't let everything overwhelm you. GMing can be a tough job and you have a dozen things to keep track of at any one time but once you find your rhythm and unique style you'll love every minute of it. Oh and use "rule 0" as sparingly as possible and only when it's needed to keep the game going, settle an argument, or otherwise improve the game in the long run.

Garimeth
2014-08-14, 02:41 PM
Familiarize yourself with the rules, and commonly used PC abilities.

If a decision or rules adjudication comes up mid-scene, make a ruling and then fact check afterwards.

Also, I never had to DMPC experience alot of people here seem to have had. I run several (2-3) in most of my games, and have asked my players several times if they want me to get rid of them, and the answer has always been an emphatic no. When I have them head off to take care of things in their personal lives the players will even go track them down later on for their help in stuff or just cause they like having them around. That said there are a few rules I follow for myself:

1. The PCs agreed to have them there, and if the PCs ever want to get rid of them they need only ask - and they know this.

2. The DMPC is not a shot caller, he represents his own interests which may or may not align with the party, and is often in contradiction with other DMPCs. The cleric of the god of life, the bard of questionable loyalty and moral standing, and the grizzled mercenary don't tend to see eye to eye for example. All major decisions are made by the PCs, and if the DMPC disagrees, he voices his say so in character, and that is that - he may leave the group, but the party will not be punished in any way whatsoever - and they know this.

3. They are only optimized as the PCs, the don't get special gear, and can only coimprise races and classes I allowed the players when they were created, they can never be higher level than the PCs and are frequently a level below them. The players know this, and they get to see the DMPC's character sheet (Roll20).

4. The DMPC's backstory is never the spotlight. Their back story is something they deal with off screen, something that ties them (in a non attention grabbing way) to the back story of a PC, or is something so generic it has no impact on the campaign at all. In the event that the players WANT to get involved in a DMPC's personal story they choose that, and I make sure they aren't feeling compelled to. The dwarf in particular they very much see as one of the team, and they choose to treat him like a PC. I have had him leave the party twice and each time they ask me to bring him back. During down time RP they frequently seek him out to RP with him.

So, not that I want to have a big DMPC debate, but I felt that the good side of them should be mentioned. I think my self imposed ruleset is why I have had success with them.

EDIT: Probably should also mention that my groups tend to only be 3-5 people. In a group of over 5 I would probably not run a DMPC, or would only run 1.

Garimeth
2014-08-14, 02:44 PM
Accidental double post.

Airk
2014-08-14, 03:58 PM
EDIT: Probably should also mention that my groups tend to only be 3-5 people. In a group of over 5 I would probably not run a DMPC, or would only run 1.

What purpose does the GMPC serve other than to distract you from other GM tasks?

Garimeth
2014-08-15, 08:02 AM
What purpose does the GMPC serve other than to distract you from other GM tasks?

Well, I think the problem with the initial assumption is that it "distracts me from other GM tasks" because it doesn't. Its literally an NPC in my world that the players liked enough, and demonstrates the ability to be useful to the party, and they want to have them come along with them.

Underlying premise aside, what the DMPC brings is different for each one, just like the King and the shopkeep serve different purposes. I am hesitant to even call it a DMPC, but that is the language everybody here uses, so I will use it too. I'll highlight the 3 current ones in my current game. PC composition is:

Dragonborn Paladin of the god of War
Gnome Rogue
Half-elf Sorcerer
Human Barbarian

NPCs:
Dwarven Cleric: Dissenting moral voice in the party, has shared history with the group, the group enjoys his boisterous dwarven personality, and in particular the way I role play him. He is useful in combat for his heals and buffs, and he's useful out of combat as a colorful addition to the party. Has left the party three times, each time they have found him in character and they ask him to join them again.

Human Bard: Member of a secret organization that the group's paladin is also a part of, again, they like his roleplay and he is useful as a source of plot exposition through his contacts and bardic lore. Advocates non-violence, except in discreet cases. Recently joined the party at their request.

Half-drow Fighter: Mercenary who functioned as an Lt. in the merc company several of the party started in. Provides the party another frontline fighter, a decent archer. Serves no significant out of party advantage, the group just likes having him around. Has left the party twice to take care of personal business.


If the DM is good there is really hardly any difference between a well run NPC and a DMPC, other than the DMPC travel with the party and is considered part of their group. Everytime I have left the party bereft of DMPCs they either go and recruit more allies, find allies, or hire mercs. The DMPCs basically fill the function of henchman that are interesting and have a backstory, they are just run by me.

Anonymouswizard
2014-08-15, 10:59 AM
The key parts of being a GM are as follows:


Be able to improvise. Many GMs write 50 pages of story for a campaign, only to have the players go off script at page 3.
The primary job of the GM is to make the players believe that anything that happens to their characters is due to their actions. This can be anything from a shielded roll, to consulting a piece of paper.
As a GM you have 3 main tools. These are 1)lying 2)cheating and 3)stealing.