Swordsage Help

[Kesnit]

A friend wants to build a Swordsage for an upcoming game. We've tried reading the Handbooks and Guides, but all the ones we're finding (1) are incomplete, (2) focus on ToB as a whole, not SS, and/or (3) don't cover what he wants to do. The party already has a primary melee person. What he wants to do is melee, but in a more "rogue-ish" way, preferably with some debuffing.

So, some questions for people who have a lot more knowledge on ToB than we do...

1) We've figured out that Shadow Hand is the martial discipline to focus on. However, he's interested in TWF and the Bloodclaw Master PrC. (I saw in one of the guides that only levels 1-3 are good. That's fine.) This may sound stupid, but... You don't have to be in a Tiger Claw stance to use Tiger Claw strikes (or Shadow Hand stance to use Shadow Hand strikes), right? I don't think so, but want to make sure before we start building.

2) On a simlar subject, weapons other than a Discipline's favored weapons can be used, right?

3) The idea is to use almost entirely ToB classes, but I'm thinking a 2-level dip into Rogue would be good. Is 2 levels enough Rogue before switching to SS? (The game starts at LVL 8. I know 2 levels of Rogue = 1 Initiator Level.)

[Hyena]

The answer is "yes" to all of those questions.

[DarkSonic1337]

1. Nope. There are some feats and class features throughout the book that require you to be in a certain stance to use them (such as shadowblade requiring you to be in a shadow hand stance), but maneuvers have no requirements like that.

2. Again, discipline weapons only matter for a couple of feats and class features throughout the book. Notable examples are shadowblade again (dex to damage), swordsage's discipline focus (which gives you weapon focus for all the weapons in the discipline you chose), bloodclaw master (full strength do damage on off hand).

3. Yep 2 levels of Rogue works fine, but be sure to trade your evasion for something else (like spell reflection from complete mage). Also consider 1 level of Rogue and 1 level of sneak attack variant fighter for 2d6 sneak attack. 3 levels of Rogue is also a possibility, as you can trade trapsense for penetrating strike, which well let you get half of your sneak attack dice damage on normally immune foes. Check with DM for interpretation on the exact wording (or get the Lightbringer Penetrating Strike feature from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which is less ambiguous wording but only works when you flank them).

After that, really just pick some nice shadowhand and tiger claw maneuvers, grab the craven feat and maybe staggering strike and your typical 2 weapon fighting tree. Get some items and feats to boost sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?66915-Sneak-Attack-Feats-amp-Boosts) (and more importantly items to overcome sneak attack immunity). Get some items to help you be sneaky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267900-A-Guide-to-Proper-Scouting-%28Rescued-from-Brilliant-Gameologists%29). Gloves of the Balanced hand (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/feats.html) can help you with the two weapon fighting feat tax. Have fun.

[Aegis013]

1. I agree, Shadow Hand is going to be one of the two schools to focus on for inflicting debuffs and effectively being a magic-rouge. Setting Sun can also inflict some (prone, largely), but it has a more monk-ish feel.

1. a. You can use any of the maneuvers you have readied regardless of stance. You don't need to be in a stance at all, really, though usually they're pure benefit at the cost of a swift action, so I recommend activating a utility stance like Hunter's Sense or Hearing the Air or similar at the beginning of every day and switching to a more combat-oriented stance when you know combat is about to happen or at the beginning of combat. Assassin's Stance + Craven feat is a great way to dish out some rogue-y damage.

1. b. Yes, Bloodclaw master is probably best only taken for 3 levels.

2. You can use any weapon, favored weapons are a matter of fluff. Though, in the case of Swordsage, they pick a school and get Weapon Focus with the favored school they pick for their first Discipline Focus, so there's some encouragement to use a Discipline's favored weapons, but it's definitely not a requirement.

3. You could do that, but what are you wanting to get out it? You'd be down two SS levels, which means you'd be out Sense Magic (which is pretty good) and Discipline Focus(Defensive stance) at the beginning of the game. Even as a straight SS, you could have Assassin's Stance at 5, which is the earliest possible anyway, and one of the best ways to be able to dish out damage in a rogue-like manner. (ie Sneak Attack and various improvements thereupon)

Edit: Swordsaged.

[Kesnit]

2. Again, discipline weapons only matter for a couple of feats and class features throughout the book. Notable examples are shadowblade again (dex to damage), swordsage's discipline focus (which gives you weapon focus for all the weapons in the discipline you chose), bloodclaw master (full strength do damage on off hand).

Daggers are Shadow Blade weapons, but are also listed under the Bloodclaw Master ability that gives full STR bonus on the off hand. So daggers it is. :smallsmile:


3. Yep 2 levels of Rogue works fine, but be sure to trade your evasion for something else (like spell reflection from complete mage). Also consider 1 level of Rogue and 1 level of sneak attack variant fighter for 2d6 sneak attack.

Ooo.... Now that's an idea.


Get some items and feats to boost sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?66915-Sneak-Attack-Feats-amp-Boosts) (and more importantly items to overcome sneak attack immunity). Get some items to help you be sneaky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267900-A-Guide-to-Proper-Scouting-%28Rescued-from-Brilliant-Gameologists%29). Gloves of the Balanced hand (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/feats.html) can help you with the two weapon fighting feat tax. Have fun.

Those links were really helpful. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:


3. You could do that, but what are you wanting to get out it?

Guaranteed Sneak Attack ability. A lot of the gear I put together adds bonuses to SA, but all of it says "if you don't already have SA, this won't help." Being in Assassin's Stance gives SA, but there may be a time another stance would be more appropriate. Since he's using daggers and is small (Strongheart Halfling for the feat), pretty much all his damage is coming from SA. I want to make sure that no matter the situation, he's getting SA.