How can I gain a dragon energy type without Draconic Heritage or >1 class level?

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm working with a friend on a Scout Swift Hunter build to end up with 10d6 skirmish damage at the end of it that I pulled off of here.

Ranger 2/Scout 4/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2/Ranger 3/X 1, specifically.

We've got a couple extra feats to work with here, so I thought about using Dragonfire Strike to turn her precision damage into energy damage if need be versus creatures with crit immunity, like elementals, constructs, undead, oozes, that sort of thing. The problem is that by default, Dragonfire Strike does fire damage, which is somewhat poor as Fire Elementals are relatively common, and Fire Resistance is rather common as well.

We wanted to get Electricity in (Force would be too much and we already have a Sonic DFI Bard), but there's a problem. I have no idea how to gain a dragon energy type here. Draconic Heritage doesn't work, as you need to be an actual Sorc 1 to take it (as opposed to the simulated Sorc level in Dragon Devotee that qualifies us for Unseen Seer). Draconic template flat-out doesn't work because it bars you from getting into Dragon Devotee in the first place. I don't believe taking a fifth level in DD would do it either.

So within this build, how do we acquire an electrical dragon subtype (Blue, Bronze, Oceanus, or Sapphire)?

I mean, we could start as a Sorc 1, but that puts EVERYTHING off behind it and the DM is enforcing multiclass XP penalties.

[Nevershutup]

It seems that you want the Dragontouched feat(Dragon Magic, Pgs. 14-15) , which lets you select Draconic feats as a sorcerer of your character level.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe a Dragonblooded race? Silverbrow human should be able to do it.

And hilariously, IIRC, you don't have to match your bloodline (so you could be a silverbrow human with blue dragon ancestry).

[AnonymousPepper]

It seems that you want the Dragontouched feat(Dragon Magic, Pgs. 14-15) , which lets you select Draconic feats as a sorcerer of your character level.

Will this then allow me to just take Dragonfire Strike of the energy type of my choosing, or do I then ALSO have to take Draconic Heritage to set the type?

[Darrin]

Will this then allow me to just take Dragonfire Strike of the energy type of my choosing, or do I then ALSO have to take Draconic Heritage to set the type?

Unfortunately, no. You need all three feats: Dragontouched, Dragon Heritage, and Dragonfire Strike. This will switch the energy type to electricity (or whatever you prefer). If you have room for a dip, you can pick up Dragontouched from Dragonfire Adept and Draconic Heritage from a Sorcerer ACF.

Note: there's no clear consensus that Dragonfire Strike changes precision damage to non-precision damage, so check that with the DM. Swift Hunter does bypass crit-immunity in favored enemies.

You can advance skirmish damage quicker with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4. Also, note that Dragonfire Strike adds +1d6 damage to sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish independently. If you have all three types of precision damage, you can get +3d6 damage from one feat.

[AnonymousPepper]

Unfortunately, no. You need all three feats: Dragontouched, Dragon Heritage, and Dragonfire Strike. This will switch the energy type to electricity (or whatever you prefer). If you have room for a dip, you can pick up Dragontouched from Dragonfire Adept and Draconic Heritage from a Sorcerer ACF.

Note: there's no clear consensus that Dragonfire Strike changes precision damage to non-precision damage, so check that with the DM. Swift Hunter does bypass crit-immunity in favored enemies.

You can advance skirmish damage quicker with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4. Also, note that Dragonfire Strike adds +1d6 damage to sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish independently. If you have all three types of precision damage, you can get +3d6 damage from one feat.

Really can't afford to dip because multiclass XP penalties, sadly, or else I'd just slap Sorc1 at the front of it and then Unseen Seer'd progress that to boot.

Darn, though. I figured you'd know, since this is YOUR build and all. Three feats is rough, even given flaws and an extra feat we've been working with due to a rules error that we've just been rolling with, and even given Chaos Shuffling various weapons proficiencies.

That said, certainly my reading of Dragonfire Strike is that it allows you to switch it.

[Darrin]

Darn, though. I figured you'd know, since this is YOUR build and all. Three feats is rough, even given flaws and an extra feat we've been working with due to a rules error that we've just been rolling with, and even given Chaos Shuffling various weapons proficiencies.


Whoops! I completely missed that you were already using my 10d6 build. Sorry about repeating myself.

Well... if Chaos Shuffle is on the table, you can swap out Endurance for something else. Hmmm... you can also use the Champion of the Wild ACF for another feat. You lose Ranger spells/wands, but you still have Sorcerer casting. Is this a melee or ranged build?

If all you need are a couple feats for shuffling, then toss in an Otyugh Hole and/or Frog God's Fane?

Oho! I may have a solution. Check out the Urban Companion ACF in the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). More specifically, this sentence:

"The character gains the companionship of a smaller but far more intelligent creature than she otherwise would have. This is identical to the sorcerer's ability to summon a familiar (PH 52), including all benefits granted and gained by the familiar, except as noted below." (emphasis added)

Now let's pair that up with Races of the Dragon p. 107:

"Draconic Heritage: A 1st-level dragonblood sorcerer gains Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat. This substitution feature replaces the standard sorcerer's familiar class feature." (emphasis added)

So swap Animal Companion -> Urban Companion -> Draconic Heritage. Voila! And if you do this after you take Dragon Devotee 3, when you have 1st level Sorcerer casting, you can even skip Dragontouched.

[AnonymousPepper]

We're going with ranged because A. it's a role the party lacks, B. Hank's Energy Bow is a thing, and C. Splitting and Exit Wound combined with Greater Manyshot on a Large HEB (using Strongarm Bracers) means a whopping 112d6 going out per turn at 19th, at only a -10 to attack rolls - which, well, we have a bard in the party; we should still be connecting with a lot of things. It seemed like the logical choice to go to Dragonfire Strike to get around pesky crit immunity on most things - it ultimately means that the only things immune to your precision dice are elementals of your chosen energy type (for that you have Favored Enemy: Elemental) and enemies with both Heavy Fortification and Energy Immunity (your type)... for which there's always Greater Dispel Magic somewhere.

[Sith_Happens]

Oho! I may have a solution. Check out the Urban Companion ACF in the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). More specifically, this sentence:

"The character gains the companionship of a smaller but far more intelligent creature than she otherwise would have. This is identical to the sorcerer's ability to summon a familiar (PH 52), including all benefits granted and gained by the familiar, except as noted below." (emphasis added)

Now let's pair that up with Races of the Dragon p. 107:

"Draconic Heritage: A 1st-level dragonblood sorcerer gains Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat. This substitution feature replaces the standard sorcerer's familiar class feature." (emphasis added)

So swap Animal Companion -> Urban Companion -> Draconic Heritage. Voila! And if you do this after you take Dragon Devotee 3, when you have 1st level Sorcerer casting, you can even skip Dragontouched.

Yeah... I'm pretty sure you can't trade a class feature for a substitution level.

[Troacctid]

Maybe if you had Sorcerer as a favored class, and split your Scout and Ranger levels more evenly?

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah... I'm pretty sure you can't trade a class feature for a substitution level.

Why not?

Class feature equivalencies (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7cG03WmpKTEttSTVla0tDdGhaRmtCT 2c&usp=sharing) are a thing that people use.

[Jowgen]

If they were both alternate class features, I think you could make a case for it based on the wording of ACF's having no prerequesites, and being selected in place of another available class feature. The probelm lies in the fact that the second is a sub-substituation level, meaning an entire level of your class-progression is switched out; and you can't do that unless you're actually advancing in said class.

I think the main problem is the precision damage itself. Dragonfire Strike states that "When you gain extra damage" then "you can choose for the extra damage to be fire damage". If you read this as to mean that changing the damage into an energy type overcomes precision damage immunity (a reading I don't agree with as the conditions to apply precision damage must be met for you to gain any extra damage), then Hank's Energy bow would make Dragonfire Strike obsolete, since the projecticles deal force damage, and subsequently, any precision based damage they cause is force damage. But I digress.

If you're intent on getting an energy type for Dragonfire Strike, I think your best option is to take a one level dip into Dragon shaman. No BAB, but Fortitude and Will +2, Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat, you get to pick a totem dragon with an energy type that suits you; and you get a Draconic Aura as a little extra on top (I'm partial to Vigor). The multiclass-penatlies can be off-set by spending one of your spare feats on Additional Favored Class, and I think it still works out cheaper in terms of feats overall.

[Darrin]

I think the main problem is the precision damage itself. Dragonfire Strike states that "When you gain extra damage" then "you can choose for the extra damage to be fire damage". If you read this as to mean that changing the damage into an energy type overcomes precision damage immunity (a reading I don't agree with as the conditions to apply precision damage must be met for you to gain any extra damage), then Hank's Energy bow would make Dragonfire Strike obsolete, since the projecticles deal force damage, and subsequently, any precision based damage they cause is force damage. But I digress.


Force damage isn't an energy type in 3.5. Force damage doesn't automatically bypass DR because it's energy, it usually bypasses DR because it's a spell effect. But Hank's Energy Bow isn't a spell effect, and the item description doesn't mention DR. I'm not entirely sure what would happen when you add skirmish + Dragonfire Strike to Hank's Energy Bow... I think it would be fire damage that still counts as a force effect, but unless you're attacking something that's incorporeal/ethereal, I don't think it would matter all that much. As you said, a digression.



If you're intent on getting an energy type for Dragonfire Strike, I think your best option is to take a one level dip into Dragon shaman. No BAB, but Fortitude and Will +2, Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat, you get to pick a totem dragon with an energy type that suits you; and you get a Draconic Aura as a little extra on top (I'm partial to Vigor).

Dragon Shamans don't actually get Draconic Heritage, but we do have this text from Dragon Magic:

"Whenever a dragon shaman selects a feat or other option whose effect depends on a character's draconic heritage (from the Draconic Heritage feat), treat his totem dragon as his heritage selection."

So this should work. You can skip taking both Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage. If you have a Dragon Shaman level when you take Dragonfire Strike, the energy type switches to your totem dragon, just as if you had Draconic Heritage.

[Jowgen]

Force damage doesn't automatically bypass DR

I disagree, but I don't think an argument regarding the rulings of Force damage/effects/attacks would be in the interest of this thread. Still, in regards to Hank's energy bow specifically, I think the Force weapon property spoilered below ought to be considered.

A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack. These force projectiles automatically overcome damage reduction and suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets, but they don’t damage creatures immune to force effects


Dragon Shamans don't actually get Draconic Heritage

Sorry, my mistake; thank you for posting the relevant text that has led me to think they do.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, one level of Dragon Shaman would be my choice. It only lets you get the standard energy types, but since electricity is what you want, it'll do.