The Tarrasque

[Envyus]

We got a preview of the Tarrasque on Enworld. It's missing it's regen for some reason however.

http://www.enworld.org/

[CyberThread]

We got a preview of the Terrasque on Enworld. It's missing it's regen for some reason however.

http://www.enworld.org/


God I hate how cluttered that site is.


http://imgur.com/a/jq3au

[Muenster Man]

Hit Points: 676 (33d20 + 330)

Haven't been keeping up with every monster that's been released, but is this the first to use a d20 for hit dice?

[RustyArmor]

The Tarrasque is one of them creatures I wish they would just get rid of. Never used it or cared to use it in any game I ran.

[akaddk]

Tarrasque.

https://i.imgur.com/FRttMom.gif

[CyberThread]

The Tarrasque is one of them creatures I wish they would just get rid of. Never used it or cared to use it in any game I ran.

Don't have to, still an archtype monster, like an ooze and beholders.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Looks like you can still fly above him and kite him dead. They should have given him a legendary ability like the 4e version to increase the pull of gravity and drag flying creatures to the ground.

He's more of a plot device than a straight-up encounter, which I'm okay with if you decide to use him in a "kaiju is wrecking the party's hometown and needs to be stopped as fast as possible" scenario. In that scenario, getting into melee is necessary to distract him rather than defeat him (and if he eats you then he can just keep on rampaging while you're stuck in his gullet).

[Envyus]

Looks like you can still fly above him and kite him dead. They should have given him a legendary ability like the 4e version to increase the pull of gravity and drag flying creatures to the ground.

He's more of a plot device than a straight-up encounter, which I'm okay with if you decide to use him in a "kaiju is wrecking the party's hometown and needs to be stopped as fast as possible" scenario.

yeah I feel like they should have given him the pathfinder he can shoot spines. Sill Fly is concentraion and lots of spell are pretty damn worthless against the thing.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

yeah I feel like they should have given him the pathfinder he can shoot spines. Sill Fly is concentraion and lots of spell are pretty damn worthless against the thing.

Ranged attacks and methods of actively engaging 20th-level PCs would defeat the purpose. The Tarrasque is a fantasy version of Godzilla. You use him in the following scenarios:


The Tarrasque attacks a city. This serves as a dramatic backdrop for the actual problems the party deals with. Plot is usually based around themes of humans vs nature and humans vs human tendencies.
The Tarrasque attacks a city. The party has to find a tool or piece of lore which can be used to make it leave. Humanity uses knowledge and reason to triumph over nature.
The Tarrasque attacks a city. The party has to fight it and minimize the property damage caused until they do enough damage to drive it away. The PCs are awesome heroes.
A monster attacks a city. The Godzilla Threshold has been reached (summoning Godzilla can't make the situation worse,) and so the party must summon the Tarrasque so that the two monsters can fight and the Tarrasque can kill it. Sit back and eat popcorn while you watch them duke it out.

[TrexPushups]

But Godzilla is rather famous for his ranged attack.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

But Godzilla is rather famous for his ranged attack.

Yeah, but he only uses it on urban areas if the director wants to invoke the nuclear bombing of Japan. It's mostly used to kill other giant monsters.

[Totema]

AC 25!? I'm used to 3.X stats so that seems abysmally low for some reason. I guess I'm just not used to 5e's power level yet. :smalltongue:

[Lokiare]

God I hate how cluttered that site is.


http://imgur.com/a/jq3au

Frightful presence is redundant. I would replace it with this one:

Frightful Presence:
The Tarrasque shows the players its stat block.

Yep, much more effective.

[archaeo]

Looks like you can still fly above him and kite him dead. They should have given him a legendary ability like the 4e version to increase the pull of gravity and drag flying creatures to the ground.

Kite it with what? Any spell that requires a ranged attack roll, a line spell, or a magic missile spell either does nothing, or, 1/6 of the time, is reflected right back at the caster. It gets advantage on every save, and then if it fails, 3/day it can just say no. And Meteor Swarm won't work, since it's immune to fire. And flying? It has Str 30; can't it just jump at you from the ground, or, uh, just ignore you as all of your spells fizzle against it?

[Lokiare]

Kite it with what? Any spell that requires a ranged attack roll, a line spell, or a magic missile spell either does nothing, or, 1/6 of the time, is reflected right back at the caster. It gets advantage on every save, and then if it fails, 3/day it can just say no. And Meteor Swarm won't work, since it's immune to fire. And flying? It has Str 30; can't it just jump at you from the ground, or, uh, just ignore you as all of your spells fizzle against it?

Its the proverbial "you can't win" monster that's meant to TPK a party intentionally.

[Shinken]

Can't you kite it with a magic bow?

[archaeo]

Its the proverbial "you can't win" monster that's meant to TPK a party intentionally.

I'm not trying to figure out how to beat it, I'm trying to establish that, indeed, it is that proverbial "you can't win" monster.

Elsewhere on the web, people suggest using Acid Splash, a conjuration cantrip with a range of 60' that targets a weak save (dex) and doesn't call for a ranged attack roll. At level 17, it will do 4d6 damage, and a DM following the jump rules exactly might not let the Tarraesque get a 60' jump to take down the splasher.

[akaddk]

I'm not trying to figure out how to beat it, I'm trying to establish that, indeed, it is that proverbial "you can't win" monster.

It's beautiful, isn't it?

[HorridElemental]

I usually play the Tarrasque like one of those over world boss monsters. Like Weapon(s) from final fantasy 7.

Love having him/her destroying a city while the PCs have to escape (level 1 - 8).

Gave one Sin like abilities (pseudopod things) and flight just to mess with a 3.5 level 13 party... They won but mama Terrasque wasn't happyhappy her baby got spanked and sent home (no way to actually kill it).

I think this Tarrasque is a great base for homebrewing a bunch of fun stuff. Coming soon to a homebrew near you... MechaTarrasque!!!

[akaddk]

I think this Tarrasque is a great base for homebrewing a bunch of fun stuff. Coming soon to a homebrew near you... MechaTarrasque!!!

I can just see it now.

DM: Suddenly from out of nowhere you see a creature so horrifying and massive that as it bursts up out of the ground it destroys the town hall and church right next to it. It then starts going on a wanton rampage of destruction through the city streets, ripping apart buildings and people without any rhyme or reason.

Player: OMG! It's a tarrasque! Ok guys... we can take it... right? I mean, we're 20th-level, surely we can save this city?

DM: Oh, and it's got mechanical pulleys and winches and gears and sockets all over it. It seems to have been converted somehow into a mechanical tarrasque.

Players: RUN!

[HorridElemental]

I can just see it now.

DM: Suddenly from out of nowhere you see a creature so horrifying and massive that as it bursts up out of the ground it destroys the town hall and church right next to it. It then starts going on a wanton rampage of destruction through the city streets, ripping apart buildings and people without any rhyme or reason.

Player: OMG! It's a tarrasque! Ok guys... we can take it... right? I mean, we're 20th-level, surely we can save this city?

DM: Oh, and it's got mechanical pulleys and winches and gears and sockets all over it. It seems to have been converted somehow into a mechanical tarrasque.

Players: RUN!

First rule of DMing: Players never run.

Second rule of DMing: MechaTarrasque makes players run.

My motto has always been, go big or go home.

[Xefas]

I think a burrowing ability could be cool here. Lets him respond to flying ranged kiting threats without needing to return fire. He just dives underground and hits the surrounding city with an earthquake/sinkhole power as he earth-swims by, with relative impunity.

Before, he was just taking the Tarrasquian equivalent of a leisurely stroll to the corner store. Now you've gone and threatened him. He's all full of Tarrasquedrenaline and Fight-or-Rampage responses.

[Dienekes]

Its the proverbial "you can't win" monster that's meant to TPK a party intentionally.

I'll be honest, I've always felt certain monsters (Tarrasque, Great Wyrm dragons, and of course gods) should be designed that if you directly engage them, you should die, horrible. Doesn't matter if you're a wizard or a fighter.

However, making a battle plan to distract, sneaking around, and attacking weak points unexpectedly should make anything killable. It's kind of a bitch to balance though.

[Envyus]

I just remembered about legendary creatures lairs when someone mentioned it on ENworld about the Terrasque and that possible giving it's regen ability. I also remember in 4e and pathfinder that the Tarrasque had a connection to the earth in them and was thinking. What if they counted the entire planet as the Tarrasque's lair.

[Madfellow]

I think this Tarrasque is a great base for homebrewing a bunch of fun stuff. Coming soon to a homebrew near you... MechaTarrasque!!!

A while back I had an idea for a Half-Dragon Tarrasque. :smallamused:

[HorridElemental]

I just remembered about legendary creatures lairs when someone mentioned it on ENworld about the Terrasque and that possible giving it's regen ability. I also remember in 4e and pathfinder that the Tarrasque had a connection to the earth in them and was thinking. What if they counted the entire planet as the Tarrasque's lair.

I was thinking this before bed, I just thought it would be crazy... But now that I read it from someone else... It does sound crazy, crazy fricken awesome.

[Morty]

I have to say, Legendary Actions seem like a both simple and good idea to solve a problem that's hounded big bad solo monsters in D&D for a long time. As far as vulnerability to flying ranged attackers, I'd say it's not the fault of the Tarrasque as much as it's a problem with flight being too cheap and too easy. Magic item that grant flight will be less easy to get, presumably, but Fly is still a 3rd level wizard spell.

[HorridElemental]

I have to say, Legendary Actions seem like a both simple and good idea to solve a problem that's hounded big bad solo monsters in D&D for a long time. As far as vulnerability to flying ranged attackers, I'd say it's not the fault of the Tarrasque as much as it's a problem with flight being too cheap and too easy. Magic item that grant flight will be less easy to get, presumably, but Fly is still a 3rd level wizard spell.

Increase frightful presence to 600 feet and give the big T a jump of a number of feet equal to Str Score * CR...

[HorridElemental]

Random note/question...

Since big T is the "most dreaded" creature on the material plane then I would expect that the DC to identify the creature would be 0. Kinda like how AIDS is one of the most dreaded diseases, only someone with a massive penalty could fail to know something about it.

So DMs, will the big T be common knowledge, folk lore (shrugged off as over exaggeration), or will it be a secret monster that no one knows of?

[Gemini476]

Kite it with what? Any spell that requires a ranged attack roll, a line spell, or a magic missile spell either does nothing, or, 1/6 of the time, is reflected right back at the caster. It gets advantage on every save, and then if it fails, 3/day it can just say no. And Meteor Swarm won't work, since it's immune to fire. And flying? It has Str 30; can't it just jump at you from the ground, or, uh, just ignore you as all of your spells fizzle against it?
(Before I go theoryrafting on how to kill the Tarrasque solo as a 6th-level Wizard, I'd just like to note that if I were to actually use the Tarrasque in a game as a GM I'd give it the 4E version's anti-flying field. No kiting for you.)

Alright then, here's the plan: be a sixth level Evoker, with Acid Splash and Fly known/prepared.

First of all, cast Fly. This will last for ten minutes, and let you fly at 60ft. (The Tarrasque moves at 40ft speed.) Next, fly 140ft or so above the ground - low enough that zipping down 30ft will bring you 60ft above the Tarrasque (putting it in range of Acid Splash).

Basic battleplan: fly down 30ft, cast Acid Splash, fly up 30ft. You do 2d6 damage (Dex save for half, DC 15), which the Tarrasque is going to save against 51% of the time. That means an average of 5,15 damage/round, and ~130 rounds to kill. That's 13 minutes, but luckily you have 3 3rd level spells/day and thus can (if you chain casts) fly for 30 minutes/day.

The Tarrasque has a strength score of 30, so if it does a running high jump it can jump up 13 feet and reach a maximum height of 50ft+13ft+25ft=88ft. Do note that this is being a bit generous, since it only has Reach 15ft for its claws.

You'll need to find some way to beat the fear, of course. That's a bit tricky, but since all it really does is have a 55% chance or so to have you be unable to move closer to it for one minute, and you're already flying out of reach and plan on spending 13 (now 14) minutes killing it... Yeah.

You really shouldn't be able to just kite these huge boss monsters. You'd have figured that game designers had learned it by now, but nooooo...

(As an aside, if you're planning on trying to solo it in melee [not something I recommend] then make sure to get eaten. An average of 56 damage/round is a lot better than getting the full 4d12+4d10+8d8+4d6+50 routine [average 148 damage/round], although if you have sufficient Resistance and AC (vs. a +19 to-hit, so) that might be more acceptable. Resistance plus AC 25 should make taking the routine 0,5 DPR better. Level 20 Barbarians would need +3 armor from non-class sources to equal that, FYI.)

[eastmabl]

(Before I go theoryrafting on how to kill the Tarrasque solo as a 6th-level Wizard, I'd just like to note that if I were to actually use the Tarrasque in a game as a GM I'd give it the 4E version's anti-flying field. No kiting for you.)

Alright then, here's the plan: be a sixth level Evoker, with Acid Splash and Fly known/prepared.

First of all, cast Fly. This will last for ten minutes, and let you fly at 60ft. (The Tarrasque moves at 40ft speed.) Next, fly 140ft or so above the ground - low enough that zipping down 30ft will bring you 60ft above the Tarrasque (putting it in range of Acid Splash).

Basic battleplan: fly down 30ft, cast Acid Splash, fly up 30ft. You do 2d6 damage (Dex save for half, DC 15), which the Tarrasque is going to save against 51% of the time. That means an average of 5,15 damage/round, and ~130 rounds to kill. That's 13 minutes, but luckily you have 3 3rd level spells/day and thus can (if you chain casts) fly for 30 minutes/day.

The Tarrasque has a strength score of 30, so if it does a running high jump it can jump up 13 feet and reach a maximum height of 50ft+13ft+25ft=88ft. Do note that this is being a bit generous, since it only has Reach 15ft for its claws.

You'll need to find some way to beat the fear, of course. That's a bit tricky, but since all it really does is have a 55% chance or so to have you be unable to move closer to it for one minute, and you're already flying out of reach and plan on spending 13 (now 14) minutes killing it... Yeah

Until the Tarrasque figures out your plan and just runs away to eat a small city.

With its move speed of 40 feet, it can dash 80 feet and use its legendary action to move half its speed up (since this is solo combat, we're looking at once per round). That's 100 feet of movement a round? You cannot keep up with the tarrasque and continue your Acid Splash rain of death with your Fly speed of 60 feet.

30 minutes into the chase, the Tarrasque has outrun you, and you're out of useful spells.

[Gemini476]

Until the Tarrasque figures out your plan and just runs away to eat a small city.

With its move speed of 40 feet, it can dash 80 feet and use its legendary action to move half its speed up (since this is solo combat, we're looking at once per round). That's 100 feet of movement a round? You cannot keep up with the tarrasque and continue your Acid Splash rain of death with your Fly speed of 60 feet.

30 minutes into the chase, the Tarrasque has outrun you, and you're out of useful spells.
Ah, that's true.

So would being a Wizard 6/Rogue 2 do the job, then? If you use your bonus action to Dash then you're moving at 120ft/turn and can continue with the plan. I'll need to figure out the geometry for the optimal movement and height above the Tarrasque, but since he only reaches 38 feet above him I guess you could just hover around 100ft and be done with it? (Incidentally, this means that if you want to team up with more Wizards to do the job then you can only bring one more - three Wizards total means that the Tarrasque is moving at 140ft/round and can outrun them.

...Or maybe they should be a Sorcerer instead. Draconic Bloodline (Black)'s Elemental Affinity ends up with more DPR than the School of Evocation's Potent Cantrip. Consistently so, although that's just against the Tarrasque in particular. Huh.

You also have enough Sorcery Points to cast Fly once more than the Wizard can. I repeat: Huh. And since we don't care about 1st and 2nd level slots, we get another two instances of Fly. So 50 minutes of flight at level 5, or 60 at level 6.

So yeah, Sorcerer (Black Draconic Bloodline) 5/Rogue 2 could do it. Level 7 is equaling the D&D 3.5 record, right? When was it that you could start swarming it with Allips?

[zilonox]

The Tarrasque has a strength score of 30, so if it does a running high jump it can jump up 13 feet and reach a maximum height of 50ft+13ft+25ft=88ft. Do note that this is being a bit generous, since it only has Reach 15ft for its claws.

This made me think, "Ah, but it's tail has a 20 ft reach", which in turn made me think of Pelé (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1fRmbNpHIs). :smallsmile:

(Yeah, yeah, I know--flying can still take you out of reach, but the thought of bicycle tail-slapping an airborn wizard/sorcerer still made me giggle.)

[Gemini476]

This made me think, "Ah, but it's tail has a 20 ft reach", which in turn made me think of Pelé (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1fRmbNpHIs). :smallsmile:

(Yeah, yeah, I know--flying can still take you out of reach, but the thought of bicycle tail-slapping an airborn wizard/sorcerer still made me giggle.)

Yeah, that could maybe work I guess. The main reason I'm kind of ignoring reach is because of the disconnect between the attack rules (claws have 15ft reach) and high jump rules (can reach up 1/2 your height, so 25ft for the Tarrasque). I really hate it when you have separate rules that give contradictory answers.



Looking at the image, does the Tarrasque look remarkably humanoid to anyone else? Especially in the sketch where it's standing more or less upright. That's quite a bit different from the 3E-4E look, and maybe a bit of a callback to the old AD&D Tarrasque?

[micahwc]

So the mega city needs to get a small group of wizards to band together for less than half an hour to kill or drive away the monstrous Tarrasque? So like 2 wizards working for 15 minutes or 5 wizards killing it in less than 5 minutes? Seems like its not really that much of a threat.

[hawklost]

Ah, that's true.

So would being a Wizard 6/Rogue 2 do the job, then? If you use your bonus action to Dash then you're moving at 120ft/turn and can continue with the plan. I'll need to figure out the geometry for the optimal movement and height above the Tarrasque, but since he only reaches 38 feet above him I guess you could just hover around 100ft and be done with it? (Incidentally, this means that if you want to team up with more Wizards to do the job then you can only bring one more - three Wizards total means that the Tarrasque is moving at 140ft/round and can outrun them.

...Or maybe they should be a Sorcerer instead. Draconic Bloodline (Black)'s Elemental Affinity ends up with more DPR than the School of Evocation's Potent Cantrip. Consistently so, although that's just against the Tarrasque in particular. Huh.

You also have enough Sorcery Points to cast Fly once more than the Wizard can. I repeat: Huh. And since we don't care about 1st and 2nd level slots, we get another two instances of Fly. So 50 minutes of flight at level 5, or 60 at level 6.

So yeah, Sorcerer (Black Draconic Bloodline) 5/Rogue 2 could do it. Level 7 is equaling the D&D 3.5 record, right? When was it that you could start swarming it with Allips?

I will point out the jumping rules are for a medium sized creature and do not make any sense in relation to a creature this size to begin with. Your logic indicates that a Tarrasque doing a running jump is really no better than a normal Fighter doing a running jump. That logic is quite silly (and yes, I understand, based on the PHB, which does not have anything larger than Medium or smaller than Small creatures in it, jump is limited like that) and fails to take into account size. Also, you fail to take into the Account that the DM is given full rights to make something do a DC athletics check to increase their distance, since there is no rule on the limit of the increase, it is DMs decision, which means for something this large that could possibly reach you (especially if you think about the fact that normal people can jump their height pretty easily, so assuming the same logic, the Tarrasque can jump 50 feet up quite easily.)

[HorridElemental]

I will point out the jumping rules are for a medium sized creature and do not make any sense in relation to a creature this size to begin with. Your logic indicates that a Tarrasque doing a running jump is really no better than a normal Fighter doing a running jump. That logic is quite silly (and yes, I understand, based on the PHB, which does not have anything larger than Medium or smaller than Small creatures in it, jump is limited like that) and fails to take into account size. Also, you fail to take into the Account that the DM is given full rights to make something do a DC athletics check to increase their distance, since there is no rule on the limit of the increase, it is DMs decision, which means for something this large that could possibly reach you (especially if you think about the fact that normal people can jump their height pretty easily, so assuming the same logic, the Tarrasque can jump 50 feet up quite easily.)

PC rules are for rare individuals, plus this is an elf game where the norm is jumping up is that easy.

Don't base D&D on the real world all the time, especially when rules within the game already change what is normal.

D&D is not a simulation game.

I like the rest of your post though and agree, it is a bit weird that a Terrasque jumps using the same rules as aedium creature.

[Human Paragon 3]

Maybe there's something in the MM or DMG about super jumping for giant monsters.

[137beth]

Are charm and compulsion separate things in 5e the way they are in 3e? If they are then the Tarrasque is not immune to Domination...

[Yuki Akuma]

Are charm and compulsion separate things in 5e the way they are in 3e? If they are then the Tarrasque is not immune to Domination...

Nope. Dominate spells are also charm in 5e.

[Kurald Galain]

Until the Tarrasque figures out your plan

He's got only 3 intelligence, so good luck with that :smallcool:

[Person_Man]

AC 25!? I'm used to 3.X stats so that seems abysmally low for some reason. I guess I'm just not used to 5e's power level yet. :smalltongue:

At 20th level, a player's to-hit roll is 1d20 + 6 (Proficiency) + 5 (Ability Score Bonus) + 2-5ish (from miscellaneous modifiers from your class, magic weapon, and/or spells). So your attack roll results are going to be somewhere in the 12-36ish range. And most results will probably be in the 17-36ish range, since at that point it should be fairly easy to get Advantage on most rolls, and pretty much everyone will have some kind of miscellaneous modifier(s). So a typical 20th level player will probably hit the Tarrasque 55%ish of the time. Though I'm sure you could probably stack Foresight + Bless + magic item + etc to get it into the 70-80%ish range.

Also, it looks like the "but simple Kobolds will be able to kill high level players/monsters" concerns were overblown (at least in this, the most extreme case), since the Tarrasque has Immunity to pretty much everything that's not a magical weapon and a potent-ish Frightful Presence. It'll be interesting to see what the cost of a Scroll of Magic Weapon is, so that we can calculate the exact cost and manpower needed for an army Commoners to kill it in one round.

[Psyren]

Use Maze to buy time for evacuating the village and then have a ring of flying archers. Whittle him down (easy with no regen) and then finish him off with PWK.

[Envyus]

Use Maze to buy time for evacuating the village and then have a ring of flying archers. Whittle him down (easy with no regen) and then finish him off with PWK.

Unless the Archers have magic weapons that won't do anything.

Anyway if the Terrasque wanted to it could just throw house at the annoying flying creatures.

Anyway unless their is a 3rd page we did not see I will be house ruling it's regen and it's pathfinder ability to shoot spines.

[MadBear]

I'm curious what the average populations level in the setting is? Is this addressed yet? I know I've always played it:
Amount of people of a particular level per million:
20- 1-2
18-19 - 3-4
16-17 - 8
14-15 - 16
12-13- 32
10-11 - 64
8-9- 128
6-7- 240
4-5- 580
3- 1160
1-2 everyone else.

In some settings I've played, even villagers reach levels 5-10 quite often, and in others, 3rd+ is for rare and extraordinary individuals.

In this particular case, a ring of flying archers might be quite rare and hard to come by in one world, while trivial in another.

[Psyren]

Unless the Archers have magic weapons that won't do anything.

I didn't think I needed to spell that out, but yeah, I'm assuming magic bows.


Anyway if the Terrasque wanted to it could just throw house at the annoying flying creatures.

With what hands?



Anyway unless their is a 3rd page we did not see I will be house ruling it's regen and it's pathfinder ability to shoot spines.

And we're right back to houseruling Big T to make him a credible threat to any party with 2 brain cells :smalltongue:

[Envyus]

I'm curious what the average populations level in the setting is? Is this addressed yet? I know I've always played it:
Amount of people of a particular level per million:
20- 1-2
18-19 - 3-4
16-17 - 8
14-15 - 16
12-13- 32
10-11 - 64
8-9- 128
6-7- 240
4-5- 580
3- 1160
1-2 everyone else.

In some settings I've played, even villagers reach levels 5-10 quite often, and in others, 3rd+ is for rare and extraordinary individuals.

In this particular case, a ring of flying archers might be quite rare and hard to come by in one world, while trivial in another.

According to the tiers of play in the basic rules a level 11 character is extraordinary even among adventurers.

[hawklost]

I'm curious what the average populations level in the setting is? Is this addressed yet? I know I've always played it:
Amount of people of a particular level per million:
20- 1-2
18-19 - 3-4
16-17 - 8
14-15 - 16
12-13- 32
10-11 - 64
8-9- 128
6-7- 240
4-5- 580
3- 1160
0+1-2 everyone else.

In some settings I've played, even villagers reach levels 5-10 quite often, and in others, 3rd+ is for rare and extraordinary individuals.

In this particular case, a ring of flying archers might be quite rare and hard to come by in one world, while trivial in another.

I added in something else. 0 level. It indicates someone who hasn't even made it up to the power of the 1st level characters. These people might be good at something but do not stack up to 1st level even (something that is CR 1/8th might fit this)

[Envyus]

I didn't think I needed to spell that out, but yeah, I'm assuming magic bows.



With what hands?



And we're right back to houseruling Big T to make him a credible threat to any party with 2 brain cells :smalltongue:


The Hands it clearly has. It's bipedal.

http://i.imgur.com/efIYkAh.jpg

Also you do know that getting those magic bows is going to be hard they are not easy to find. Also Fly can only be cast on one person at a time. Plus once again even here it can throw stuff at the annoying flying targets.

[Sartharina]

I'm not seeing the "Death Throws" part, where, upon being reduced to 0 HP, it regenerates 1d4 minutes later with the Legendary Template, with Regeneration, Lazer Eyes(Essentially a line breath weapon), Plasma Breath (A cone breath weapon), a Roar that grounds and stuns enemies, and other things.

Also - why aren't its melee attacks AoE?

[Yuki Akuma]

The Hands it clearly has. It's bipedal.

It also clearly doesn't have binocular vision, though, so throwing stuff might be tricky.

[Kurald Galain]

I prefer using the stats from this guy...

http://scp-wiki.wdfiles.com/local--files/scp-682/monster8editub9.jpg (http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-682)

[hawklost]

It also clearly doesn't have binocular vision, though, so throwing stuff might be tricky.

Are you saying throwing stuff at something 120 ft or even 600 ft away requires binocular vision? People are able to shoot pistols up to 200 yards (600ft) with decent accuracy. Something with eyes as large as a car could probably see 600 feet quite well. So are you that it need binoculars for it why?

[Psyren]

The Hands it clearly has. It's bipedal.

I see t-rex-style claws, not hands. What makes you think it can throw anything? Nothing in its stat block says it can throw.


Also you do know that getting those magic bows is going to be hard they are not easy to find.

+1 bows are hard to find? At level 20? One more reason to avoid 5e.
Oh wait, I just remembered - Magic Weapon is a thing that exists. All we need now are potions and oils to come back.


Also Fly can only be cast on one person at a time. Plus once again even here it can throw stuff at the annoying flying targets.

Okay, so get a single archer with fly and magic weapon to plink at it. Give the Fighter something to do, there's a good lad. If things go south, maze him and run, he's pretty much going to be stuck there for the whole 10 minutes every time.

[Envyus]

It also clearly doesn't have binocular vision, though, so throwing stuff might be tricky.

Blind sense. If you are within 120 ft of it, it knows were you are.

[Sartharina]

Are you saying throwing stuff at something 120 ft or even 600 ft away requires binocular vision? People are able to shoot pistols up to 200 yards (600ft) with decent accuracy. Something with eyes as large as a car could probably see 600 feet quite well. So are you that it need binoculars for it why?... that's not what Binocular vision means. Binocular vision means that it can see with two eyes, and gauge distance based on the parallax differential between the two images.

That said, people overstate the importance of binocular vision for determining distance. Scale and motion parallax also work - as anyone who plays any FPS with a trajectory-based weapon can tell you (Binocular vision does nothing for a flat screen). Also - I have a brother with only one functional eye, and he's got excellent depth perception.

[Yuki Akuma]

Are you saying throwing stuff at something 120 ft or even 600 ft away requires binocular vision? People are able to shoot pistols up to 200 yards (600ft) with decent accuracy. Something with eyes as large as a car could probably see 600 feet quite well. So are you that it need binoculars for it why?

Psst: humans have binocular vision. We are also the only animal on the planet capable of throwing things with any accuracy, due to opposable thumbs and incredible binocular vision.

Humans are not the baseline. Humans are awesome at some things. Throwing is one of them.

[Envyus]

I see t-rex-style claws, not hands. What makes you think it can throw anything? Nothing in its stat block says it can throw.


The fact that it's claws are capable of grasping stuff says it can throw. Also while the party will have magic weapons I highly doubt a flying archer can take it down.

[Sartharina]

I see t-rex-style claws, not hands. What makes you think it can throw anything? Nothing in its stat block says it can throw.It doesn't need it in the statblock to be able to do it. Its claws and arms are large enough to grab and throw things with.

[MadBear]

Psst: humans have binocular vision. We are also the only animal on the planet capable of throwing things with any accuracy, due to opposable thumbs and incredible binocular vision.

Humans are not the baseline. Humans are awesome at some things. Throwing is one of them.

I'll promptly let the elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, orcs, kobolds, trolls, giants, etc. know that they will no longer be allowed to throw things. :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, what you're saying is absolutely true here on earth, but I'd allow there to be an exception for mythical creatures in a fantasy setting.

[hawklost]

Psst: humans have binocular vision. We are also the only animal on the planet capable of throwing things with any accuracy, due to opposable thumbs and incredible binocular vision.

Humans are not the baseline. Humans are awesome at some things. Throwing is one of them.

Funny, could have sworn those apes and monkeys were pretty dam good at throwing stuff too, will have to tell them next time at the that they can't since they aren't human.

As for needing Opossable thumbs, I would point you to the game Lacrosse and how accurate people can throw things without it being held by a thumb.

Sartharina kindly pointed out my mistake with Binocular Vision without resorting to your foolish claims. That said, Sartharina also pointed out that people with only a single eye can have great depth perception. Note that anything on TV/book/or any other flat surface still gives us a great deal of depth perception feeling without us using any Binocular Vision ability (it is useless against 2D), claiming it is a must (especially in a world of Magic) is again foolish.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'll promptly let the elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, orcs, kobolds, trolls, giants, etc. know that they will no longer be allowed to throw things. :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, what you're saying is absolutely true here on earth, but I'd allow there to be an exception for mythical creatures in a fantasy setting.

Well, all of said humanoid races have equivalent (or better) senses of vision to humans, as well as brains similar enough that they have humanlike personalities, and hands almost identical to humans.

Meanwhile, the Tarrasque is Godzilla with only slightly higher intelligence than a dog.

On the other hand, Godzilla throwing houses is really freaking cool, so I'll concede that it should be possible.

[hawklost]

Well, all of said humanoid races have equivalent (or better) senses of vision to humans, as well as brains similar enough that they have humanlike personalities, and hands almost identical to humans.

Meanwhile, the Tarrasque is Godzilla with only slightly higher intelligence than a dog.

On the other hand, Godzilla throwing houses is really freaking cool, so I'll concede that it should be possible.

Funny, nothing in the races stat block indicate that they have better vision or even equal in all scenarios than humans (except for Elves with Perception Bonus). In fact, with the base +1 stat to everything, it indicates humans have on average better vision (since its Wis based) then every other race that doesn't get + to Wis.

[Psyren]

It doesn't need it in the statblock to be able to do it. Its claws and arms are large enough to grab and throw things with.

Only it's mouth can grab per the statblock, and then only creatures. So unless you're suggesting it throws things with its head...

[Yuki Akuma]

Funny, nothing in the races stat block indicate that they have better vision or even equal in all scenarios than humans (except for Elves with Perception Bonus). In fact, with the base +1 stat to everything, it indicates humans have on average better vision (since its Wis based) then every other race that doesn't get + to Wis.

Most humanoid races in 5e have darkvision, and no penalties to seeing in the light. I'd say that qualifies as strictly better than human vision.

I apologise if my tone earlier caused offense. But seriously. Humans are awesome at throwing stuff, and other animals (not even other apes) are nearly as good. A chimpanzee can't fling a stone to hit a moving target at three hundred yards.

Some reading material (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130626142710.htm) if you're interested in the awesomeness of humans throwing stuff.

Edit: Of course, it's not just our hands and eyes that make us good at throwing. The human body plan in general is geared towards walking stamina and hurling stuff at high speeds. Most humanoid races in D&D are shaped more or less the same as humans are, so it only stands to reason they don't get penalised for throwing baseballs.

[Demonic Spoon]

Only it's mouth can grab per the statblock, and then only creatures. So unless you're suggesting it throws things with its head...


A statblock is not an exhaustive list of everything a particular creature could ever potentially do.

[Gemini476]

I will point out the jumping rules are for a medium sized creature and do not make any sense in relation to a creature this size to begin with.
Quite right! A creature of that size should be completely unable to jump.

Your logic indicates that a Tarrasque doing a running jump is really no better than a normal Fighter doing a running jump. That logic is quite silly (and yes, I understand, based on the PHB, which does not have anything larger than Medium or smaller than Small creatures in it, jump is limited like that) and fails to take into account size.
Do note that the running jumps of Fighters are plenty supernatural (if boringly so) already, what with being able to make a 20ft jump just like that. Or a 25ft jump, for Champions. Tarrasques, meanwhile, take 30ft long jumps. Which is fitting, considering that they need to move 10ft before that and jumping would use up all their movement for the turn. The Tarrasque is already a better jumper due to its increased Strength score, but it does not scale as fast as you clearly think it should.

Do note that it is vastly more difficult for a creature with the Tarrasque's weight to jump the same distance as a human. "Hundreds of tons" is not easy to move in any case, and here we have a creature capable of jumping over an African elephant. You know what weighs hundreds of tons? The blue whale. Just for reference, you know. The Tarrasque is probably in the top ten or so when compared to IRL animals in regards to weight.

By the way, rereading the rules has brought a thing to my attention. If the Tarrasque is on rough terrain (likely) then jumping means that he needs to make a DC 10 Dexterity(Acrobatics) check or land prone. He has +0 Dex. Yeah.

As much as people seem to like to make out the Tarrasque as being a super-sized version of a Jurassic Park Velociraptor, that isn't really supported by the rules. As written the Tarrasque is a huge lumbering giant.

Another thing to consider is that it's entirely possible that all animals jump the same height (http://supersonicman.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/the-square-cube-law-all-animals-jump-the-same-height/)!

Also, you fail to take into the Account that the DM is given full rights to make something do a DC athletics check to increase their distance, since there is no rule on the limit of the increase, it is DMs decision, which means for something this large that could possibly reach you
Sure, although that goes into the various houserules that can be made to make the fight more difficult. Like I said before, I would personally convert the 4E version's ability to say "No, you aren't flying in my presence, fall down to the ground this instant." Others have mentioned regeneration, which would save it from dying a death from a thousand papercuts, or being able to shoot spines, which will probably ruin the Concentration of the Fly spell and get casters eaten.
That isn't RAW, though, or BtB or whatever you want to refer to it as. As written the Tarrasque can be easily kited around by anyone with flight or sufficient speed (>80ft, or >160ft if accounting for Legendary Actions). This is an issue that it had in at least 3E, and was fixed in both 4E and Pathfinder. That's why I'm disappointed to see that it's still around.

Another fun idea: Give a bunch of skellingtons magic bows, stick them in a Force Cage, have them shoot at the Tarrasque while it cannot hit them. Might not work if they do too little damage, in which case replacing them with a Fighter or Ranger might be a good idea.


(especially if you think about the fact that normal people can jump their height pretty easily, so assuming the same logic, the Tarrasque can jump 50 feet up quite easily.)
That's... not really how it works. If things could be scaled up that easily, clearly I could jump 600ft up into the air since that's proportional to what fleas can do, right? Also, the median vertical jump height for male humans is something like 22 inches or so. That's not exactly "jumping your height", unless you're fairly short. Like, 2ft short.
Once you get into proffesional athletes and such thing get higher, of course, with Kenny Gregory managing to jump 45,5" on a running vertical jump. That's slightly more than half his 6' 5" height! (It would also indicate a strength score of 12ish, by the way. Yes, characters with 12+ Strength are already close to breaking world records.)

[HorridElemental]

Only it's mouth can grab per the statblock, and then only creatures. So unless you're suggesting it throws things with its head...

Well, now I'm saying exactly that.

Hulking Hurler Big T throws PC McWizard into the moon (destroying said moon) by grabbing and throwing the wizard with its mouth..

Nice

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So the mega city needs to get a small group of wizards to band together for less than half an hour to kill or drive away the monstrous Tarrasque? So like 2 wizards working for 15 minutes or 5 wizards killing it in less than 5 minutes? Seems like its not really that much of a threat.

It can do a massive amount of property damage in a few minutes. We're looking at an enormous monster leaving death and destruction in its wake.

Anyways, I'm agreeing with a lot of the other posters here. This is a good base set of statistics for the critter, but we're going to have to houserule in breath weapons and other supernatural abilities to make it more interesting and tailor it to our PCs.

[eastmabl]

He's got only 3 intelligence, so good luck with that :smallcool:

Holding the whole "elfgame" thing aside:

Imagine that I can fly and decided to chase a dog, shooting at him with a super soaker full of acid water. I'm going to fly 10 feet above him and just soak him until he's a wet, dead dog.

Once the dog realizes the thing that's he can't fight the thing that's hurting him (me), he's just going to run away. If he can outrun me, that's how the hurting stops.

Likewise, it's not a big stretch that the (presumably) smarter tarrasque would just run away from wizard with acid splash that he can't reach to attack.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Holding the whole "elfgame" thing aside:

Imagine that I can fly and decided to chase a dog, shooting at him with a super soaker full of acid water. I'm going to fly 10 feet above him and just soak him until he's a wet, dead dog.

Once the dog realizes the thing that's he can't fight the thing that's hurting him (me), he's just going to run away. If he can outrun me, that's how the hurting stops.

Likewise, it's not a big stretch that the (presumably) smarter tarrasque would just run away from wizard with acid splash that he can't reach to attack.

I'm telling you guys, treat him like Godzilla. If you poke him enough he'll swim back into the ocean and fall asleep.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Is it bad to do Pacific Rim with Tarrasques?

[Psyren]

A statblock is not an exhaustive list of everything a particular creature could ever potentially do.

If it could grab things with its claws, why does only its mouth have the ability? And it's probably too dumb to do that anyway.


Well, now I'm saying exactly that.

Hulking Hurler Big T throws PC McWizard into the moon (destroying said moon) by grabbing and throwing the wizard with its mouth..

Nice

He can fly? Where do you see that?

[Kurald Galain]

Once the dog realizes the thing that's he can't fight the thing that's hurting him (me), he's just going to run away. If he can outrun me, that's how the hurting stops.

Sure, you can conceivably cause Big T to flee by pelting him with acid splashes. But he wouldn't "catch on" to your strategy and make a tactical retreat to some location he had planned for, because he's too dumb for that.

[TrexPushups]

Is it bad to do Pacific Rim with Tarrasques?

No it is awesome to do that.

If I ever run a Tarrasque I am giving him a breath weapon

Fiery Death Breath recharge 4, 5, 6 roll each round:

10ft wide line 600ft long
DC 16 Dex save for half damage
4d12 force damage 4d6 fire damage
creatures that fail reflex save take 4d6 necrotic damage each round until they pass a DC 13 Con save

Visual approximation seen in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiwFIKHG7w4

[Gemini476]

Holding the whole "elfgame" thing aside:

Imagine that I can fly and decided to chase a dog, shooting at him with a super soaker full of acid water. I'm going to fly 10 feet above him and just soak him until he's a wet, dead dog.

Once the dog realizes the thing that's he can't fight the thing that's hurting him (me), he's just going to run away. If he can outrun me, that's how the hurting stops.

Likewise, it's not a big stretch that the (presumably) smarter tarrasque would just run away from wizard with acid splash that he can't reach to attack.

So what happens when the dogTarrasque can't outrun you? What does it do when both flight and fight are impossible, lie down in fetal position and try to cover itself as much as it can?

[MadBear]

So what happens when the dogTarrasque can't outrun you? What does it do when both flight and fight are impossible, lie down in fetal position and try to cover itself as much as it can?

I think this is where throwing buildings becomes appropriate.

[Sartharina]

Only it's mouth can grab per the statblock, and then only creatures. So unless you're suggesting it throws things with its head...It can do that too, if it has anywhere near the oral and cranial dexterity of a dog. I own a pair of Border Collies that play frisbee with each other.
If it could grab things with its claws, why does only its mouth have the ability? And it's probably too dumb to do that anyway.The mouth grabs automatically, instead of requiring a separate action. It doesn't deal claw damage if it grabs with its claws, because it's using its digits to hold, not slash.

[HorridElemental]

I think this is where throwing buildings becomes appropriate.

Some people think that you need to have the grab special ability in order to grab items and throw it...

To bad all those PC races and monsters don't have the grab ability... I guess McFighter can't hold their swords.

[Gemini476]

I think this is where throwing buildings becomes appropriate.
...Ignoring the intelligence (if any) required to use tools in such a way, does it even have opposable thumbs? How would it even pick up the stuff it's going to throw? (Or, better yet, what can it pick up that won't break apart as it tries? He doesn't exactly have contact telekinesis.)

Also, Dex +0 kind of screws with that plan. Unless it gets another... +9? from proficiency, that is. (Does it have a +9 proficiency bonus? It hits for +19, and has +10 Strength...) Minus a bit from range, depending on how you kite him (I think a Monk18/Rogue2 might do a good job with a 120' move speed? No, wait, you need more than 160' move speed to always avoid his reach whilst still meleeing him. Maybe a +1 crossbow could work, then you can make do with >80' move speed.)

[Sartharina]

...Ignoring the intelligence (if any) required to use tools in such a way, does it even have opposable thumbs? How would it even pick up the stuff it's going to throw? (Or, better yet, what can it pick up that won't break apart as it tries? He doesn't exactly have contact telekinesis.)It has an Opposable Lower Jaw, if it needs to. It also has Two Claws, and can throw it sort of like a basketball. As for what it can grab - Buildings, trees, and other such stuff that, even if it does break, it still has large enough pieces to deal significant damage.


Also, Dex +0 kind of screws with that plan. Unless it gets another... +9? from proficiency, that is. (Does it have a +9 proficiency bonus? It hits for +19, and has +10 Strength...) Minus a bit from range, depending on how you kite him (I think a Monk18/Rogue2 might do a good job with a 120' move speed? No, wait, you need more than 160' move speed to always avoid his reach whilst still meleeing him. Maybe a +1 crossbow could work, then you can make do with >80' move speed.)True, he is attacking at disadvantage, and +0 (Not proficient in improvised weapons).

[MeeposFire]

Funny, could have sworn those apes and monkeys were pretty dam good at throwing stuff too, will have to tell them next time at the that they can't since they aren't human.

As for needing Opossable thumbs, I would point you to the game Lacrosse and how accurate people can throw things without it being held by a thumb.

Sartharina kindly pointed out my mistake with Binocular Vision without resorting to your foolish claims. That said, Sartharina also pointed out that people with only a single eye can have great depth perception. Note that anything on TV/book/or any other flat surface still gives us a great deal of depth perception feeling without us using any Binocular Vision ability (it is useless against 2D), claiming it is a must (especially in a world of Magic) is again foolish.

Actually it isn't just our thumbs it is also our shoulder design and other evolutions that make us uniquely suited to throwing. To be honest other primates actually are not good at throwing. They throw with much less accuracy and much less force (despite often being stronger) and this is due primarily to anatomy. While they can throw (often underhand and when not they are restricted in what they can do) they cannot do it well and thus it is why they do not use throwing as a way to get food like we did.

http://phys.org/news/2013-06-chimps-humans-baseball-pitcher.html

[Giddonihah]

The Red Dragons lair looks pretty cool, hopefully the Tarrasque's Lair makes up for its shortfallings, and like said earlier encompasses the entire Plane.

Something like giving Regeneration while in the lair, and an ability that takes down fliers would be nice.

[Psyren]

It can do that too, if it has anywhere near the oral and cranial dexterity of a dog. I own a pair of Border Collies that play frisbee with each other.

"My border collies can do this, honest!" is a rather poor argument for a DM to bring to the table when the players rightfully call shenanigans.



The mouth grabs automatically, instead of requiring a separate action. It doesn't deal claw damage if it grabs with its claws, because it's using its digits to hold, not slash.

You need hands, not claws, to grab or throw anything. Is there a single description of the Tarrasque that says it has hands?


Some people think that you need to have the grab special ability in order to grab items and throw it...

To bad all those PC races and monsters don't have the grab ability... I guess McFighter can't hold their swords.

Fighters have hands last time I checked.

[HorridElemental]

"My border collies can do this, honest!" is a rather poor argument for a DM to bring to the table when the players rightfully call shenanigans.



You need hands, not claws, to grab or throw anything. Is there a single description of the Tarrasque that says it has hands?



Fighters have hands last time I checked.

I don't know... their stat block doesn't say they have hands. Their fluff and pictures shows that they have hands but since their stat block doesn't say they can grab then I guess they can't grab.

Your logic doesn't really work.

Saying Big T can't grab and throw something because they don't have a special property in their stat block is a bit far fetched.

[pwykersotz]

I didn't think I needed to spell that out, but yeah, I'm assuming magic bows.

With what hands?

And we're right back to houseruling Big T to make him a credible threat to any party with 2 brain cells :smalltongue:


"My border collies can do this, honest!" is a rather poor argument for a DM to bring to the table when the players rightfully call shenanigans.

You need hands, not claws, to grab or throw anything. Is there a single description of the Tarrasque that says it has hands?

Fighters have hands last time I checked.

You've picked an odd battle to fight with the "he can't throw a building" thing. I'm not sure I understand what would be lost by allowing it.

You are right though. It's pitifully easy to see that without range, without speed, and without flight, it won't be too difficult to take down. Not because of the reasons listed so far though. Fighters with magic bows is super expensive, and outside of 150ft they are at disadvantage. That means at all times there's a 30ft safe zone with the fear effect, that's tough. No, my problem is that its CR is 30. That assumes it's insanely difficult for a core level 20 party to take down.

True Polymorph - Turn it into a frog. Concentrate for an hour. Done. Seriously WotC, make it immune to transmutation effects. This seems like a no brainer. 30' range so you'd have to make the saving throw, but it's not like the Tarrasque will sneak attack anyone. Getting advantage on that throw through inspiration or preparation shouldn't be hard. Or even fear immunity. And even though you're targeting its strong save, it still has a 60% chance to fail.

I love the Tarrasque, but this one is only half done for a CR30. Burrow speed, breath weapon, and immunity to transmutation, and it's starting to look a lot better. A continuous earthquake effect so long as it moved the last turn would be great too.

[Fable Wright]

True Polymorph - Turn it into a frog. Concentrate for an hour. Done. Seriously WotC, make it immune to transmutation effects. This seems like a no brainer. 30' range so you'd have to make the saving throw, but it's not like the Tarrasque will sneak attack anyone. Getting advantage on that throw through inspiration or preparation shouldn't be hard. Or even fear immunity. And even though you're targeting its strong save, it still has a 60% chance to fail.

You do realize that it has Magic Resistance to turn that into a 36% chance of failure, and Legendary Resistance to obviate the first three that it does fail a save against, right? It's really not as simple as you make it seem.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So going through this thread, it seems like the main problem with the Tarrasque is that it can be kited by a flying fighter with a magic bow, and a rogue on the ground with a magic bow. Here are a few options to solve that:


Give it a burrow speed and a swim speed so it can leave and go destroy another town if you bother it too much. Maybe also let it burrow like this as a legendary action.
Give it the 4e roar ability it had for grounding flying enemies, possibly combined with a leash or slow effect. Would make a great lair ability.
Give it a ridiculously long-range line breath weapon that does tons of force damage, dispels magic, and temporarily suppresses magic items.
Give it the sprint ability from 3e, and also allow it to jump to ridiculous heights when doing so. Would probably have recharge and only allow a bite/swallow attack while moving.


Any other ideas?

[Psyren]

Their fluff and pictures shows that they have hands

I see no hands in either of those things.



Your logic doesn't really work.

Your wishful thinking doesn't really work.


Saying Big T can't grab and throw something because they don't have a special property in their stat block is a bit far fetched.

No, I'm saying they can't because they don't have hands. Claws are not hands. Claws can go on hands, for some creatures, but that's irrelevant in Big T's case. I'm only bringing up the stat block to show that the designers had the chance to give him hands and chose not to.


You do realize that it has Magic Resistance to turn that into a 36% chance of failure, and Legendary Resistance to obviate the first three that it does fail a save against, right? It's really not as simple as you make it seem.

Isn't a 36% chance of failure the same thing as saying a 64% chance of success?

As for the LR, just bait his saves 3 times.

[OracleofWuffing]

So going through this thread, it seems like the main problem with the Tarrasque is that it can be kited by a flying fighter with a magic bow, and a rogue on the ground with a magic bow. Here are a few options to solve that:


Give it a burrow speed and a swim speed so it can leave and go destroy another town if you bother it too much. Maybe also let it burrow like this as a legendary action.
Give it the 4e roar ability it had for grounding flying enemies, possibly combined with a leash or slow effect. Would make a great lair ability.
Give it a ridiculously long-range line breath weapon that does tons of force damage, dispels magic, and temporarily suppresses magic items.
Give it the sprint ability from 3e, and also allow it to jump to ridiculous heights when doing so. Would probably have recharge and only allow a bite/swallow attack while moving.


Any other ideas?
Given the current thread of discussion, add and stat out human arms and eyes on its mouth so it can unquestionably throw buildings.

[Fable Wright]

Isn't a 36% chance of failure the same thing as saying a 64% chance of success?
The Tarrasque had a 36% chance of failing both saves, which is in fact equivalent to a 64% chance of succeeding against true Polymorph.


As for the LR, just bait his saves 3 times.
I am entirely fine with that, as it would be the climactic end to a long and protracted fight, where the spellcasters spam all of their Save or Dies, most of them resisted in their entirety, some just tanked by the Tarrasque, while the spellcasters unable to know which failed to his regular saves, and which were just ended with his Legendary Resistance. At the end, a Wizard moves within killing range of the Tarrasque, knowing that if his spell fails, he will die from the Legendary Action of the Tarrasque, and casts his one final spell with barely more than a one in three chance of affecting the beast... and manages to confine the creature into the body of a squirrel.

[Psyren]

At the end, a Wizard moves within killing range of the Tarrasque, knowing that if his spell fails, he will die from the Legendary Action of the Tarrasque, and casts his one final spell with barely more than a one in three chance of affecting the beast... and manages to confine the creature into the body of a squirrel.

More likely, if it succeeds on its saving throws a bunch of times, they Maze the beast (100% success) and leg it.

[archaeo]

More likely, if it succeeds on its saving throws a bunch of times, they Maze the beast (100% success) and leg it.

And then let it ravage the countryside they've probably spent 20 levels basically making their own? Also, I hope you saved one of the two slots you get for Maze for this panic tactic. You have, at most, 10 minutes, but if it's trying to make its save every round, it will probably roll a natural 20 (the only way it can escape the Maze) within 2 minutes. Better move fast!

[pwykersotz]

You do realize that it has Magic Resistance to turn that into a 36% chance of failure, and Legendary Resistance to obviate the first three that it does fail a save against, right? It's really not as simple as you make it seem.

I cannot believe I missed that. It's certainly helpful. Thanks for pointing that out.

I still think it's too weak to be a true CR 30 though. Breath Weapon, Burrow Speed, and some sweet sweet regeneration would make it truly terrifying. Level 20's can bring some nasty stuff to the table. I just want the Tarrasque to bring the same.

[MadBear]

I see no hands in either of those things.

No, I'm saying they can't because they don't have hands. Claws are not hands. Claws can go on hands, for some creatures, but that's irrelevant in Big T's case. I'm only bringing up the stat block to show that the designers had the chance to give him hands and chose not to.



Let's take a look at the tarrasque.


http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=63459&d=1407794624

Now his upper limbs do appear to have a joint followed by metacarpals prior to the claw. Furthermore it has three digits, each of which is segmented, with the last segment forming a long claw.

To say that it doesn't have hands is to play a semantics game. For all intents and purposes it appear to be a semi bi-pedal creature with the upper limbs capable of more then just walking (clawing things into oblivion probably being the most common of them).

Furthermore it's upper limbs have what appears to be an elbow joint similar to that of a human. Finally it's shoulders do appear to have a ball socket joint allowing flexible movement. This is apparent in the 3 different pictures showing different movement positions of the limbs.

The only thing that the tarrasque is missing to be have a normal hand would be an opposable thumb. That doesn't mean it's not capable of grasping items though. One thing that caught my eye was how similiar the Tarrasque claws looks to this cute cuddly creature:

Meet the Sloth

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJ-EYirKMZJZtK17VfRWG-C8BCoelVtt2jGq16KxuqXB0i7Peevg

and more importantly meet the sloths claws:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/150/368525935_0c0059d6c8.jpg

Now watch the cute cuddly sloth claws grab things:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6150/6002652459_a552183f53.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRBGKJbGHDxkmgnA__sowae7-gVDgP-3gOtXf7J7mZSApQlqb6_1Q

http://static.ilyke.net/uploads/2013/01/24/sub/20454-large-20454-NHFNF7l.jpg

So we see that the Tarrasque has almost complete hands, that are similar to a sloths claws in function, which can in fact grab things.

So having it grab and throw a barn/tree/boulder/kitchen sink at someone isn't a problem, unless you believe improvised weapons can only be used by PC's and no one else.

[Gemini476]

So having it grab and throw a barn/tree/boulder/kitchen sink at someone isn't a problem, unless you believe improvised weapons can only be used by PC's and no one else.

Alright, let's see how he stacks up to Sprinty McKiterson, a Monk 18/Rogue 2 with 20 Dex, 19 Wis, a +1 shortbow and a whoooole lot of arrows. McKiterson has AC 20, so the Tarrasque will hit him on... a 19, right? +0 Dex and disadvantage? So 1/100 times. McKiterson can reduce ranged damage by 1d10+23 as a reaction, and if it's a dexterity save AoE then he has +11 to those and avoids them completely on a save through application of Roguespace(TM). Also, he can reroll them by spending ki.

McKiterson can Dash as a bonus action to move 120ft/turn, which beats the Tarrasque's max solo dash speed of 100ft/round. (He could also be a straight Monk and do the same by teleporting with Shadow Step, but Rogue 2 is more reliable and Perfect Self isn't that great (even if the additional feat/Wis would be nice).

McKiterson does 1d6+5 damage and shoots at +12 and disadvantage. Or just +12 with Sharpshooter. He has a 35% chance to hit it, so average 5,95 damage/round. "Power Attack"ing with Sharpshooter makes 25% and 9,25 damage. Attacking without Sharpshooter makes for an average 2,0825 damage.
That's 325 rounds to kill without Sharpshooter, 114 with Sharpshooter, and 74 with Sharpshooter's "Power Attack". And you can keep this up pretty much indefinitely, since the neccessary abilities (Extra Attack, Ability Increase, Unarmored Movement, Deflect Missiles, Evasion, Cunning Action) are all at-will and don't compete with each other for actions. Oh, and you need twice as many arrows as your RTK, so invest in quivers. ("Power Attack" needs 147 arrows, so let's round that to 160 arrows/8 quivers, for 16gp and 16lbs.)

The only non-RAW assumptions I think I'm making are that a)magic bows can use mundane ammunition to hit the Tarrasque (they'd be pretty useless otherwise and magic ammunition would need to be commonplace), b)the Tarrasque is outside its lair, and thus does not have any of its unseen abilities (which I'm hoping include 4E's "cannot die while on the material plane" clause), and c)the Tarrasque can, in fact, throw improvised throwing weapons further than the RAW 30/60 range and do more than 1d4+0 damage with them.

Three classes down on the soloing front (Sorcerer/Wizard/Monk), all with Rogue 2 to make escape impossible (although a Monk 6 can do so by itself with Shadow Step!), and all of them can do so before level 10. I'll look on the feasability of the rest of the classes later, but they've got some mobility issues and thus might need to get in melee which is an iffier prospect. I think a Barbarian 5/Rogue 2 might be able to do it if he grabs the Mobility feat? 50ft speed and bonus action dash to do basically the same thing that the Monk does. The Eagle totem can give you Dash as a bonus action as well, but only for 3-4 minutes below level 10, which isn't very useful when cherrytapping over seven minutes and more.
I think the Warlock might be able to do so at level 5 if he grabs Acid Splash via the Pact of the Tome, so level 7 if you add the standard Rogue 2. Consider Mage Armor or something as well, or maybe being a Dwarf? You want to avoid thrown houses, anyway.
I'll crunch the numbers for the rest of the classes later.

[HorridElemental]

Let's take a look at the tarrasque.


http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=63459&d=1407794624

Now his upper limbs do appear to have a joint followed by metacarpals prior to the claw. Furthermore it has three digits, each of which is segmented, with the last segment forming a long claw.

To say that it doesn't have hands is to play a semantics game. For all intents and purposes it appear to be a semi bi-pedal creature with the upper limbs capable of more then just walking (clawing things into oblivion probably being the most common of them).

Furthermore it's upper limbs have what appears to be an elbow joint similar to that of a human. Finally it's shoulders do appear to have a ball socket joint allowing flexible movement. This is apparent in the 3 different pictures showing different movement positions of the limbs.

The only thing that the tarrasque is missing to be have a normal hand would be an opposable thumb. That doesn't mean it's not capable of grasping items though. One thing that caught my eye was how similiar the Tarrasque claws looks to this cute cuddly creature:

Meet the Sloth

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJ-EYirKMZJZtK17VfRWG-C8BCoelVtt2jGq16KxuqXB0i7Peevg

and more importantly meet the sloths claws:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/150/368525935_0c0059d6c8.jpg

Now watch the cute cuddly sloth claws grab things:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6150/6002652459_a552183f53.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRBGKJbGHDxkmgnA__sowae7-gVDgP-3gOtXf7J7mZSApQlqb6_1Q

http://static.ilyke.net/uploads/2013/01/24/sub/20454-large-20454-NHFNF7l.jpg

So we see that the Tarrasque has almost complete hands, that are similar to a sloths claws in function, which can in fact grab things.

So having it grab and throw a barn/tree/boulder/kitchen sink at someone isn't a problem, unless you believe improvised weapons can only be used by PC's and no one else.

Hahaha big T is actually the byproduct of a sloth and arcane magic? I like it!

Lair Actions: The Material Plane is the Tarrasque's lair.

Gravity Well: All creatures and objects in a 2 mile radius become under the effects of greater gravity. Creatures must make a strength saving throw (DC 20) or come crashing to the ground. Most stable buildings are resistant to this (castles and such) but small houses and the like crash down. Any creature that fails it's save takes 3d10 + 1d10/5' feet above the ground (or other surface they may be over). The Strength save negates the falling and halves the damage. This is repeated for 5 rounds.

Natural Disaster: The Tarrasque may invoke any natural disaster such as a tidal wave, earth quake, major lightning storm, or a volcanoes eruption to name a few.

Font of Life: The Tarrasque heals a number of HP equal to their max HP. This works automatically (no action) as true resurrection if the Terrasque is dead and it has been 24 hours since the Big T has last used its lair action.

[eastmabl]

Sure, you can conceivably cause Big T to flee by pelting him with acid splashes. But he wouldn't "catch on" to your strategy and make a tactical retreat to some location he had planned for, because he's too dumb for that.

I never said that he would plan a retreat to a strategic location. I said that, once he determined that your tactic involved flying above him at a height he cannot reach and bathing him with acid, he's going to run. Maybe he'll try to find cover, like a remarkably tall forest. Maybe he will try to find cover by punching his way into a mountain. Regardless, it's no stretch that he'll just turn tail and run.


So what happens when the dogTarrasque can't outrun you? What does it do when both flight and fight are impossible, lie down in fetal position and try to cover itself as much as it can?

If I'm the DM using a tarrasque: I'm not using him as a wandering encounter - he's there for a reason. There's plot built around him, and this is a boss monster. I'm not using him in a vacuum.

Not-Tokyo is nearby and the tarrasque is about to wreck it. If you send out Elf-Mothra to slowly whittle down the tarrasque (who has advantage against the attack), the tarrasque is going to make a B-line for cover (this being not-Tokyo). Elf-Mothra can choose slowly whittle him down while the city is destroyed, or the rest of the party has to step in to contain him, thereby becoming more of a traditional fight.

If he careens into the city (likely my choice), he slams into all sorts of plot that the player shouldn't want him to. Eventually you'll kill him, but not before he extracts a dear price.

Alternatively, he comes toward Not-Tokyo's wall and encounters the defenders on the wall with bows, who then join initiative order. This functions as a magic mushroom of sorts, providing him with additional uses of his legendary action to move half speed. 40 base + 40 dash + 20 LA + 20 LA + 20 LA = 140 feet of movement per round, outpacing your Sorcerer 5/Rogue 2 Elf Mothra with the 60 fly move + 60 dash as a bonus action + casting. (Admittedly, in the fourth round of the magic mushroom chase and every third round thereafter, Elf Mothra could move + dash + dash as a bonus action to catch back up to the tarrasque, taking roughly 33% longer to kill him).

Regardless, plot takes us outside of our intitial exercise.

In a vacuum: It's tough. Fighting isn't an option, and fleeing is just as ineffective. I would assume one of two things:

1. The tarrasque keeps running until it's dead, since it presumes with its great constitution that it will eventually outrun the gnat that keeps dumping acid on it. It's not smart enough to stop running. (I would assume that you needn't make Constitution checks while magically flying, but I would check that presumption in this event).

2. The tarrasque stops, and tries to hold an action to attack Elf-Mothra as he dips down to lob the bubble of acid.

You want to avoid the vacuum situation, unless your players figure out how to catch it in a vacuum.

[HorridElemental]

I never said that he would plan a retreat to a strategic location. I said that, once he determined that your tactic involved flying above him at a height he cannot reach and bathing him with acid, he's going to run. Maybe he'll try to find cover, like a remarkably tall forest. Maybe he will try to find cover by punching his way into a mountain. Regardless, it's no stretch that he'll just turn tail and run.



If I'm the DM using a tarrasque: I'm not using him as a wandering encounter - he's there for a reason. There's plot built around him, and this is a boss monster. I'm not using him in a vacuum.

Not-Tokyo is nearby and the tarrasque is about to wreck it. If you send out Elf-Mothra to slowly whittle down the tarrasque (who has advantage against the attack), the tarrasque is going to make a B-line for cover (this being not-Tokyo). Elf-Mothra can choose slowly whittle him down while the city is destroyed, or the rest of the party has to step in to contain him, thereby becoming more of a traditional fight.

If he careens into the city (likely my choice), he slams into all sorts of plot that the player shouldn't want him to. Eventually you'll kill him, but not before he extracts a dear price.

Alternatively, he comes toward Not-Tokyo's wall and encounters the defenders on the wall with bows, who then join initiative order. This functions as a magic mushroom of sorts, providing him with additional uses of his legendary action to move half speed. 40 base + 40 dash + 20 LA + 20 LA + 20 LA = 140 feet of movement per round, outpacing your Sorcerer 5/Rogue 2 Elf Mothra with the 60 fly move + 60 dash as a bonus action + casting. (Admittedly, in the fourth round of the magic mushroom chase and every third round thereafter, Elf Mothra could move + dash + dash as a bonus action to catch back up to the tarrasque, taking roughly 33% longer to kill him).

Regardless, plot takes us outside of our intitial exercise.

In a vacuum: It's tough. Fighting isn't an option, and fleeing is just as ineffective. I would assume one of two things:

1. The tarrasque keeps running until it's dead, since it presumes with its great constitution that it will eventually outrun the gnat that keeps dumping acid on it. It's not smart enough to stop running. (I would assume that you needn't make Constitution checks while magically flying, but I would check that presumption in this event).

2. The tarrasque stops, and tries to hold an action to attack Elf-Mothra as he dips down to lob the bubble of acid.

You want to avoid the vacuum situation, unless your players figure out how to catch it in a vacuum.

People always forget about the hold action.

Holding can be the DM's best friend.

[eastmabl]

People always forget about the hold action.

Holding can be the DM's best friend.

Agreed.

The original poster posited that you could fly and cast the spell at a height above where a tarrasque could not jump and reach (anything over 88 feet, IIRC). It's why I haven't just analyzed "hold action and whack the 40 hp caster out of the sky in a hit or two."

[HorridElemental]

Agreed.

The original poster posited that you could fly and cast the spell at a height above where a tarrasque could not jump and reach (anything over 88 feet, IIRC). It's why I haven't just analyzed "hold action and whack the 40 hp caster out of the sky in a hit or two."

Given that I've seen cats use the hold action... It should be within the intelligence range of Tue BigT.

[Icewraith]

Are you guys forgetting that thrown weapons have the option of using either STR or DEX?

Edit: It also looks like it's packing a T-Rex type skull, where the eye sockets are placed so the eyes can swivel and are indeed capable of binocular vision. If you take all the spikes away, that's totally a T-Rex head. Look at a T-rex skull from the front (the wikipedia article has a view from the front) and then say it's not looking at you.

[Psyren]

And then let it ravage the countryside they've probably spent 20 levels basically making their own? Also, I hope you saved one of the two slots you get for Maze for this panic tactic. You have, at most, 10 minutes, but if it's trying to make its save every round, it will probably roll a natural 20 (the only way it can escape the Maze) within 2 minutes. Better move fast!

A natural 20 is not auto-success on ability checks (remember, you cannot jump to the moon no matter how many times you roll.) With a -4, it literally cannot escape early.

Besides, you're missing the obvious - if you don't shunt him elsewhere, he's going to be "ravaging the countryside" during your fight anyway. Better to let him do that after you've evacuated anyone, unless you're CE and don't care.


Meet the Sloth

Cute, but not convincing. All right, we'll play your way - let's assume for the moment that a Tarrasque can hold things like a sloth can.

What makes you think it can throw them into the air? Your pictures show the sloth holding everything close to its body - mostly using its arms, not its "hands." Do you have an example of a sloth throwing anything? Or more importantly, throwing it up?

The Tarrasque's posture also has it hunched over in every single picture I've seen. Have you ever tried to throw something up in the air while leaning over?

And finally, as I covered earlier - with 11 Dex and an improvised penalty, it's going to have a hard time hitting a flier anyway even if you allow it So yeah, it's just as much of a joke in this edition if not more.

[Cibulan]

And finally, as I covered earlier - with 11 Dex and an improvised penalty, it's going to have a hard time hitting a flier anyway even if you allow itUh, his 30 (+10) strength and +9 proficiency bonus begs to differ. You can throw with strength. Even with disadvantage, he still has a pretty good chance at hitting.

[HorridElemental]

A natural 20 is not auto-success on ability checks (remember, you cannot jump to the moon no matter how many times you roll.) With a -4, it literally cannot escape early.

Besides, you're missing the obvious - if you don't shunt him elsewhere, he's going to be "ravaging the countryside" during your fight anyway. Better to let him do that after you've evacuated anyone, unless you're CE and don't care.



Cute, but not convincing. All right, we'll play your way - let's assume for the moment that a Tarrasque can hold things like a sloth can.

What makes you think it can throw them into the air? Your pictures show the sloth holding everything close to its body - mostly using its arms, not its "hands." Do you have an example of a sloth throwing anything? Or more importantly, throwing it up?

The Tarrasque's posture also has it hunched over in every single picture I've seen. Have you ever tried to throw something up in the air while leaning over?

And finally, as I covered earlier - with 11 Dex and an improvised penalty, it's going to have a hard time hitting a flier anyway even if you allow it So yeah, it's just as much of a joke in this edition if not more.

As already pointed out, Thrown weapons use strength. Plus who is to say the big t doesn't gain the prof bonus? Even if he doesn't, throwing a house would get advantage due to it falling within the ideals, bonds, and flaws set up.

Ideal: Massive Damage and Carnage
Bond: Massive Damage and Carnage
Flaw: Massive Damage and Carnage

I just love when people use the argument "that isn't how the real world works" when arguing about a fantasy game.

[hawklost]

The Tarrasque's posture also has it hunched over in every single picture I've seen. Have you ever tried to throw something up in the air while leaning over?

And finally, as I covered earlier - with 11 Dex and an improvised penalty, it's going to have a hard time hitting a flier anyway even if you allow it So yeah, it's just as much of a joke in this edition if not more.

Yes, you can see normal people throw stuff while leaning forward. Its true that it is less accurate than pulling it over your head and aiming, but guess what bonus it effectively has. You can 'throw up' a lot more weight that way (Ever seen someone who flipped a table up above their head? yea, not something they can do by pulling back the arm). He might only be able to throw twice or three times his height, but considering he is probably not trying to throw something that is even a quarter of his weight it should be easy to throw something up for him.

Also as it was pointed out, you can use STR for throwing objects instead of Dex, which gives him a +10. Finally, he is probably not throwing a small little pebble at the PCs but a whole huge building, he doesn't need to accurately break through their armor, hitting them with 2 tons of weight (even on the arm) would do significant damage.

[Sartharina]

Uh, his 30 (+10) strength and +9 proficiency bonus begs to differ. You can throw with strength. Even with disadvantage, he still has a pretty good chance at hitting.

He doesn't have proficiency, but he still does get his strength bonus. +10 at disadvantage. If it's not a DC 18 dex save caused by him throwing something so massive instead.(8+STR)

It's not so much "Throwing" as "Flinging", though, like my dogs do with tennis balls and Frisbees.

[Cibulan]

He doesn't have proficiency, but he still does get his strength bonus. +10 at disadvantage. If it's not a DC 18 dex save caused by him throwing something so massive instead.(8+STR)

It's not so much "Throwing" as "Flinging", though, like my dogs do with tennis balls and Frisbees.Are there any rules for what does and doesn't get proficiency with monsters yet? (I have not looked at the DMG basic stuff that came out today). It looks like he gets proficiency with all his natural attacks, couldn't throwing be considered natural?

Regardless, +10 str mod is still a far cry from the +0 dex that was being thrown about.

[Sartharina]

Are there any rules for what does and doesn't get proficiency with monsters yet? (I have not looked at the DMG basic stuff that came out today). It looks like he gets proficiency with all his natural attacks, couldn't throwing be considered natural?

Regardless, +10 str mod is still a far cry from the +0 dex that was being thrown about.
No, because otherwise it would be in his statblock. This is an improvised weapon, like my Barbarian throwing a table at a bunch of goblins.

[Cibulan]

No, because otherwise it would be in his statblock. This is an improvised weapon, like my Barbarian throwing a table at a bunch of goblins.Aren't we going back to the "he can't throw a house because "throw" isn't in his statblock" problem? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm generally curious about what the rules say about proficiency for monsters. If an orc has proficient on a battle axe in his statblock, are we not to infer that he also has proficiency with longswords?

[hawklost]

Aren't we going back to the "he can't throw a house because "throw" isn't in his statblock" problem? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm generally curious about what the rules say about proficiency for monsters. If an orc has proficient on a battle axe in his statblock, are we not to infer that he also has proficiency with longswords?

Actually in this place it is not that. There are rules specifically for throwing or using anything that is improvised. You don't get your proficiency modifier for it (Unless you take the Feat, but the T does not get that feat automatically).

For your orc example you can infer that possibly any weapon that is simple can be used and maybe even any martial weapons (although that is a longer shot), but the orc would still not be proficient in Barrels or Tables but could use them as improvised weapons.

[Sartharina]

Aren't we going back to the "he can't throw a house because "throw" isn't in his statblock" problem? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm generally curious about what the rules say about proficiency for monsters. If an orc has proficient on a battle axe in his statblock, are we not to infer that he also has proficiency with longswords?Proficiency is in the statblock. If it's not in the statblock, it's not proficient. We don't know or care if an orc is proficient with longswords if it's proficient with a battleaxe and has a battleaxe equipped. We can extrapolate that it's proficient with all martial weapons, though.

However, the Tarrasque is not proficient with any weapons other than his natural weapons. Likewise, his saves list the ones he's proficient with (Note - he's NOT proficient with Strength or Constitution or Dexterity saves - probably because those would break the bound math). Also - a house is an Improvised weapon. If the Tarrasque is taking an action to make such an attack, we follow the Improvised Weapon rules, which means it's an attack at disadvantage and no proficiency for a lot of dice.

Of course, the idea of a Tavern Brawler Tarrasque has me giggling - especially the idea of the Tarrasque just trashing Not-Tokyo because he's looking for a bar to get hammered in and get into a bar fight, then waking up the next morning with a hangover in a stranger's bed.

[Cibulan]

Actually in this place it is not that. There are rules specifically for throwing or using anything that is improvised. You don't get your proficiency modifier for it (Unless you take the Feat, but the T does not get that feat automatically).

For your orc example you can infer that possibly any weapon that is simple can be used and maybe even any martial weapons (although that is a longer shot), but the orc would still not be proficient in Barrels or Tables but could use them as improvised weapons.


Proficiency is in the statblock. If it's not in the statblock, it's not proficient. We don't know or care if an orc is proficient with longswords if it's proficient with a battleaxe and has a battleaxe equipped. We can extrapolate that it's proficient with all martial weapons, though.

However, the Tarrasque is not proficient with any weapons other than his natural weapons. Likewise, his saves list the ones he's proficient with (Note - he's NOT proficient with Strength or Constitution or Dexterity saves - probably because those would break the bound math). Also - a house is an Improvised weapon. If the Tarrasque is taking an action to make such an attack, we follow the Improvised Weapon rules, which means it's an attack at disadvantage and no proficiency for a lot of dice.

Of course, the idea of a Tavern Brawler Tarrasque has me giggling - especially the idea of the Tarrasque just trashing Not-Tokyo because he's looking for a bar to get hammered in and get into a bar fight, then waking up the next morning with a hangover in a stranger's bed.I'll buy the house is an improvised weapon that he's not proficient in which I had not considered but I do think it matters to have some guidelines on what a monster might be proficient in that's not included in his statblock. In the orc example, the treasure may include a +1 longsword that the DM may want him to wield until he dies and it's important to know if he's proficient or not. Me, I'd give it to him anyway but there's a lot of people that adhere to RAW around here.

[HorridElemental]

I'll buy the house is an improvised weapon that he's not proficient in which I had not considered but I do think it matters to have some guidelines on what a monster might be proficient in that's not included in his statblock. In the orc example, the treasure may include a +1 longsword that the DM may want him to wield until he dies and it's important to know if he's proficient or not. Me, I'd give it to him anyway but there's a lot of people that adhere to RAW around here.

Of course these are monsters and thus the play things of DMs, I'm pretty sure the first rule of being a DM is ignoring RAW.

So Big T, proficiency in the attack AND advantage. Because Pysren the wizard wouldn't think that the Big T could throw a house at him and thus be caught off guard.

[MadBear]

Of course these are monsters and thus the play things of DMs, I'm pretty sure the first rule of being a DM is ignoring RAW.

So Big T, proficiency in the attack AND advantage. Because Pysren the wizard wouldn't think that the Big T could throw a house at him and thus be caught off guard.

Not to mention that we have an inverse "hitting the broad side of a barn" situation here :smallbiggrin:

[IAmTehDave]

Not to mention that we have an inverse "hitting the broad side of a barn" situation here :smallbiggrin:

Tarrasque: The REAL "Barn door that hits back." ... with a Barn.

[Psyren]

I just love when people use the argument "that isn't how the real world works" when arguing about a fantasy game.

1) I'm not the one who brought in real-world sloths.

2) Since the rules don't define what a "hand" is, we kind of have to start extrapolating ourselves, no?


Of course these are monsters and thus the play things of DMs, I'm pretty sure the first rule of being a DM is ignoring RAW.

So Big T, proficiency in the attack AND advantage. Because Pysren the wizard wouldn't think that the Big T could throw a house at him and thus be caught off guard.

Disadvantage because he's flinging up while hunched over and thus it cancels out thanks to 5e moon logic :smalltongue:

And even if you contort yourself into defining those things as "hands" - bait his low-int ass with some illusions until there is nothing left to throw! (And have Psyren the wizard ready an action to maze him once he picks up a barn - again, if he is smart enough.)

[Icewraith]

I might give big T disadvantage on the ranged attack considering the damage from being hit with a house or house-sized boulder has gotta be pretty huge. Alternatively, it might just be a dex save or take 2d20+str damage, falling damage, and be knocked from the air. Attack targets a 10-20' square. Dodging a house-sized thrown object seems less a question of AC and more a question of GTFO.

[pwykersotz]

I might give big T disadvantage on the ranged attack considering the damage from being hit with a house or house-sized boulder has gotta be pretty huge. Alternatively, it might just be a dex save or take 2d20+str damage, falling damage, and be knocked from the air. Attack targets a 10-20' square. Dodging a house-sized thrown object seems less a question of AC and more a question of GTFO.

Get hit by the house = Take HP damage equal to the hardness + hp of every surface that you have to bust through. Probably 2 brick walls and 2 wooden walls, then an extra handful of d6 for shrapnel. :smalltongue:

Is object hardness a thing anymore?

[MadBear]

1) I'm not the one who brought in real-world sloths.

Only brought in because you claimed that claws couldn't grab things.



2) Since the rules don't define what a "hand" is, we kind of have to start extrapolating ourselves, no?

I think we're in agreement here. You're right that there is no rule for what a hand is. There's also no rule for what feet are, but we still allow creatures to walk around. Still whatever you want to call the end of the limbs of the Tarrasque, it's a creature that has three prominent digits that is easily imaginable to grab with.

We don't see it in the stat-block, because it's being used as an improvised weapon. Every PC so far doesn't have a class feature that specifically states they can use improvised weapons, but the specific permission in the PHB gives them this ability. I'll I've argued is that it's just as applicable to the Tarrasque.




Disadvantage because he's flinging up while hunched over and thus it cancels out thanks to 5e moon logic :smalltongue:

And even if you contort yourself into defining those things as "hands" - bait his low-int ass with some illusions until there is nothing left to throw! (And have Psyren the wizard ready an action to maze him once he picks up a barn - again, if he is smart enough.)



a (1) : the terminal part of the vertebrate forelimb when modified (as in humans) as a grasping organ (2) : the forelimb segment (as the terminal section of a bird's wing) of a vertebrate higher than the fishes that corresponds to the hand irrespective of its form or functional specialization

b : a part serving the function of or resembling a hand: as (1) : the hind foot of an ape (2) : the chela of a crustacean

Yep, I'd say that it counts as hands under definition b for sure, and probably under a as well.

As to coming up with strategies to beat him, that's nice and all, but the dispute was if the Tarrasque would be auto-beaten by a single flying creature with a magic bow. Short answer: no, not automatically.

[Gemini476]

Of course these are monsters and thus the play things of DMs, I'm pretty sure the first rule of being a DM is ignoring RAW.

So Big T, proficiency in the attack AND advantage. Because Pysren the wizard wouldn't think that the Big T could throw a house at him and thus be caught off guard.

So how are you getting around the really low range on thrown weapons? If the Wizard is 60' away when Big T throws the block, T-boyo is taking disadvantage for long range. If you give him advantage and proficiency on the attack, that means he's stuck at just +19.

By the way, you have now made an Int 3 brute without opposable fingers better at thrown ranged attacks than any PC could ever possibly be. Just FYI. The Tarrasque is now the most accurate sharpshooter in the world.

What kind of damage are we talking about here, anyway? 1d4, for the generic "improvised weapon" damage? 4d10, following the damage of the rocks that giants throw? 4d8, to make it basically just a ranged extension of his claw attack?

--

Incidentally, I think I've figured out the way for a Druid to solo the Tarrasque at level 10. You see, a Circle of the Moon Druid can turn into an Earth Elemental then. They then gain Earthglide and Tremorsense. If they grab the Mobility feat, they equal the Tarrasque's movement speed - although it can still outspeed the Druid using Legendary Actions. The basic idea is to be under the ground underneath the Tarrasque and bob up on your turn to hit it every so often, avoiding reprisal with Mobility. The Tarrasque cannot touch you or sense you since you're underground, but you know where it is and thus can spend your 5 hours of wildshape harrassing it. You could even spend an hour taking a short rest and resetting your wildshape if you want, but I'd recommend not to since the Tarrasque might take one as well at that point and it regaining HP is the last thing you need.

5 classes down, 7 to go. For reference I've done Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Monk, and now Druid. All take Rogue 2 because it's just that good a dip.
Also, I completely missed Extend Spell last time around. Sorcerers have twelve hours of fly available at 6th level if they focus on it to the expense of all else. This opens up Tarrasque-soloing for all Sorcerers, rather than just draconic ones. Warlocks still need Pact of the Tome and Wizards the School of Evocation, however. And Monks need either Way of Shadows and a nice night for hunting or Human Monk 2/Rogue 2 with Mobility and a +1 shortbow. And Sharpshooter, if you can squeeze in some more levels. The Way of Shadows monk may want to be Drow. (I think that last stub works - give it enough arrows and it can plink away indefinitely since it moves 100ft/round. Just start 106 feet away so the Tarrasque can't Dash+Move+Legendary Action(Attack).

I'm not really sure who's next on the list of classes that can solo the Tarrasque, but I think I'll math up some Fighter stuff. Tomorrow.

--

Right now I'm mostly just hoping that the Lair Actions, videogamey as they may be, give him some kind of passive healing. Most of this can be solved with just Fast Healing 15 or whatever the equivalent is. Not all, but most.
Besides, Regeneration is pretty much the one thing that has stayed constant throughout the entire history of the Tarrasque. Not having it seems counter to the "all things old are new again" thing Next has got going, so I'm going to be very surprised if it doesn't show up.
I don't really understand why they would leak everything except the lair actions, though - surely you want your iconic monster to look impressive, rather than be humiliated by 6th-level monks? They corrected Orcuslayer, though, so hopefully they'll catch this.

[Sartharina]

I figure it would be 4d10+STR, but at +10 and disadvantage.

[HorridElemental]

The range of thrown weapons are bounded by what PCs can do, not what monsters with 30 strength can do. Big T is legendary after all, throwing a house sounds legendary.

Besides with the hold action, the T can just rip the wizard to shreds when the wizard gets too close. Or you know, hit him with a building... That could be fun, we will have to call Bit T Pete Sampras due to his mad serve skills.

[Sartharina]

Why would the wizard ever get close?

[HorridElemental]

Why would the wizard ever get close?

The tactic (one of them) was to move in, attack, move out.

I think with poison spray (range 10), this tactic won't work, nor will the druid idea, because Big T can just hold its action "if the annoying thing pops out of the ground again I whack it" or "if the annoying thing fly's closer to me" are both viable options to attack a creature by holding an action.

The druid becomes a whack a mole, big t doesn't have to know where you are coming up just anticipate that you will like a cat or something waiting for a mouse.

Seriously, holding an action ruins a lot of these plans.

[Fable Wright]

What kind of damage are we talking about here, anyway? 1d4, for the generic "improvised weapon" damage? 4d10, following the damage of the rocks that giants throw? 4d8, to make it basically just a ranged extension of his claw attack?
Honestly, I'd make it 4d20 for houses (because it's Godzilla chucking a house at you), 4d10 for boulders, and 4d6 for anything smaller. The Tarrasque can survive Disadvantage on the attack, and it just gives the Tarrasque the gravitas and ranged attacks it deserves.

Incidentally, I think I've figured out the way for a Druid to solo the Tarrasque at level 10. You see, a Circle of the Moon Druid can turn into an Earth Elemental then. They then gain Earthglide and Tremorsense. If they grab the Mobility feat, they equal the Tarrasque's movement speed - although it can still outspeed the Druid using Legendary Actions. The basic idea is to be under the ground underneath the Tarrasque and bob up on your turn to hit it every so often, avoiding reprisal with Mobility. The Tarrasque cannot touch you or sense you since you're underground, but you know where it is and thus can spend your 5 hours of wildshape harrassing it. You could even spend an hour taking a short rest and resetting your wildshape if you want, but I'd recommend not to since the Tarrasque might take one as well at that point and it regaining HP is the last thing you need.

How do you survive the Tarrasque's Readied action?

[HorridElemental]

Honestly, I'd make it 4d20 for houses (because it's Godzilla chucking a house at you), 4d10 for boulders, and 4d6 for anything smaller. The Tarrasque can survive Disadvantage on the attack, and it just gives the Tarrasque the gravitas and ranged attacks it deserves.

How do you survive the Tarrasque's Readied action?

Yeah that multiattack is a huge pain, specially since Big T can use its frightening presence as part of it... Or swallow... Or whatever. 84 average damage and plus you are scared (high DC). That level 10 druid may not be enough.

[pwykersotz]

Incidentally, I think I've figured out the way for a Druid to solo the Tarrasque at level 10. You see, a Circle of the Moon Druid can turn into an Earth Elemental then. They then gain Earthglide and Tremorsense. If they grab the Mobility feat, they equal the Tarrasque's movement speed - although it can still outspeed the Druid using Legendary Actions. The basic idea is to be under the ground underneath the Tarrasque and bob up on your turn to hit it every so often, avoiding reprisal with Mobility. The Tarrasque cannot touch you or sense you since you're underground, but you know where it is and thus can spend your 5 hours of wildshape harrassing it. You could even spend an hour taking a short rest and resetting your wildshape if you want, but I'd recommend not to since the Tarrasque might take one as well at that point and it regaining HP is the last thing you need.


My DM once had my Tremorsense blinded for 1d4 rounds when a dragon landed directly above me while I was earthgliding. I thought that was entirely reasonable, considering it was the tremor equivalent of a flashbang. Someone trying something similar with the Tarrasque might end up in trouble.

Still, good idea. It's certainly fun to think about.

[Slipperychicken]

I believe a 5th level wizard could do the deed with a riding horse, a longbow, the Magic Weapon spell, and 3000 arrows. The arrows will only weigh 150lb since each pack of 20 is 1lb. His horse shouldn't be overly encumbered.


1. Wizard rides alone into an open plain to confront the tarrasque.

2. Wizard casts Magic Weapon on his bow and fires it each round. If it runs out before the tarrasque is dead, he re-casts it.

3. Assuming the tarrasque Dashes toward the wizard each round for 80ft, then using a legendary action for an extra 20ft (total of 100ft), the wizard's riding horse handily outpaces the beast, Dashing at 120ft. I assume the tarrasque can only do that once per round, because he only has one opponent in this fight. The tarrasque cannot possibly close the distance.

4. Going by RAW regarding improvised thrown weapons, our wizard is safe from hurled houses so long as he keeps 65 feet or more between himself and the tarrasque.

5. If the wizard has dex 12 or more, his (now magical) longbow will deal at least 2d8+2 on a critical. He can cast Magic Weapon up to five times, allowing up to 3000 attacks with it. With disadvantage from range, each shot has a 2.25% chance to critical and deal an average of 11 damage. 0.025*11*3000 = 825: more than enough to kill it.

[Sartharina]

The Tarrasque is using its legendary action twice to move 40', not 20'. First after the wizard goes, then after the horse goes.

[Jacob.Tyr]

The Tarrasque is using its legendary action twice to move 40', not 20'. First after the wizard goes, then after the horse goes.
I don't think that works? "The tarrasque regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn". Looks to me like he can only use each legendary action once for every round.

Fact is, if you build for kiting you can pretty much kill anything not built for kiting. Even Wizards get f'd up by a handful of level 1's with longbows if they spend most of their time running away and shooting him from max range.

Though if you're spending 3,000 arrows, 1 per round, that's 3,000 rounds? Moving 100 feet per round away? How big is this open empty field you are engaging the tarrasque in? How have you not run into an obstacle in all of those miles that let him catch up to you? Hell, what is this amazing horse you have that isn't dying of dehydration or passing out? Even in endurance riding competitions horses don't go that far without multiple food/water stops, and those are the best breeds for this.

[pwykersotz]

I believe a 5th level wizard could do the deed with a riding horse, a longbow, the Magic Weapon spell, and 3000 arrows. The arrows will only weigh 150lb since each pack of 20 is 1lb. His horse shouldn't be overly encumbered.


1. Wizard rides alone into an open plain to confront the tarrasque.

2. Wizard casts Magic Weapon on his bow and fires it each round. If it runs out before the tarrasque is dead, he re-casts it.

3. Assuming the tarrasque Dashes toward the wizard each round for 80ft, then using a legendary action for an extra 20ft (total of 100ft), the wizard's riding horse handily outpaces the beast, Dashing at 120ft. I assume the tarrasque can only do that once per round, because he only has one opponent in this fight. The tarrasque cannot possibly close the distance.

4. Going by RAW regarding improvised thrown weapons, our wizard is safe from hurled houses so long as he keeps 65 feet or more between himself and the tarrasque.

5. If the wizard has dex 12 or more, his (now magical) longbow will deal at least 2d8+2 on a critical. He can cast Magic Weapon up to five times, allowing up to 3000 attacks with it. With disadvantage from range, each shot has a 2.25% chance to critical and deal an average of 11 damage. 0.025*11*3000 = 825: more than enough to kill it.

Don't let the horse get within 120ft. He's a shoe-in for being feared.

[hawklost]

I don't think that works? "The tarrasque regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn". Looks to me like he can only use each legendary action once for every round.

Fact is, if you build for kiting you can pretty much kill anything not built for kiting. Even Wizards get f'd up by a handful of level 1's with longbows if they spend most of their time running away and shooting him from max range.

Though if you're spending 3,000 arrows, 1 per round, that's 3,000 rounds? Moving 100 feet per round away? How big is this open empty field you are engaging the tarrasque in? How have you not run into an obstacle in all of those miles that let him catch up to you? Hell, what is this amazing horse you have that isn't dying of dehydration or passing out? Even in endurance riding competitions horses don't go that far without multiple food/water stops, and those are the best breeds for this.

They get 3 legendary actions a Round, they can only use 1 after a turn but they can choose from any of the 3 actions (assuming they have the points left) after each turn.

Also for the infinite plane. This is how people like to consider things, if it was actually a real location, the Tarrasque would probably ignore the 'obstacles' because of how small and light they are while the player would have to weave through them. Anything that could even slow down a 100+ Ton creature is probably large enough to completely block the players attacks anyways.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Don't let the horse get within 120ft. He's a shoe-in for being feared.

Ride a dragon, then.

[pwykersotz]

Ride a dragon, then.

Ah, of course. I'll go down to the local stable and pick one right up...

Now if you're suggesting that the party Wizard/Cleric use his 9th level spell slot to gate in a Dragon, have the party beat it into submission, and then negotiate with it to be a mount to defeat the Tarrasque, then I'm on board. But we're talking about a 5th level Wizard in the example given. You've just raised the bar substantially.

[Sartharina]

Ah, of course. I'll go down to the local stable and pick one right up...

Now if you're suggesting that the party Wizard/Cleric use his 9th level spell slot to gate in a Dragon, have the party beat it into submission, and then negotiate with it to be a mount to defeat the Tarrasque, then I'm on board. But we're talking about a 5th level Wizard in the example given. You've just raised the bar substantially.Hey, if a 14-year-old Viking can ride a dragon, I think a Wizard can figure out how to do it as well.

[Slipperychicken]

@Fatigue and thirst: I'll worry more about that when I see rules about it. Until then, I'll contend that the 50x70ft monster weighing many tons, suffering from the square-cube law, getting shot at, and possessing a hunger to devour whole settlements would use more energy and need to stop to feed/water itself before the horse does.

@Obstacles: There aren't any chase rules that I've seen, and I did assume an open plain.

@Fear: Fear means you can't move toward the source of fear. We don't want to move closer to the Tarrasque. There isn't much of an issue here, and it lasts a minute at most.

@Lehendary move: If Big T gets 2 legendary actions per round, that means he's moving the same speed as the wizard: 120ft per round, so he's still not closing the gap on his own. Not as comfortable as a 20ft/round advantage, but still workable. Our wizard is only in trouble if the beast can use all three on movement, or if the GM intervenes on Big T's behalf.



Also for the infinite plane. This is how people like to consider things, if it was actually a real location, the Tarrasque would probably ignore the 'obstacles' because of how small and light they are while the player would have to weave through them. Anything that could even slow down a 100+ Ton creature is probably large enough to completely block the players attacks anyways.

Big T still only has a strength bonus of +10. We'd need burst DCs on things like trees (or whether bursting them costs an action at all, or is resolved by attacking). Until we have those, there isn't any real rules guidance, so I'd consider it the realm of GM fiat. Trees wouldn't impede shots, since this wizard is firing on a 50x70 target, is already hitting on a 20, and taking disadvantage.

[hawklost]

@Fatigue and thirst: I'll worry more about that when I see rules about it. Until then, I'll contend that the 50x70ft monster weighing many tons, suffering from the square-cube law, getting shot at, and possessing a hunger to devour whole settlements would use more energy and need to stop to feed/water itself before the horse does.

@Obstacles: There aren't any chase rules that I've seen, and I did assume an open plain.

@Fear: Fear means you can't move toward the source of fear. We don't want to move closer to the Tarrasque. There isn't much of an issue here, and it lasts a minute at most.

@Lehendary move: If Big T gets 2 legendary actions per round, that means he's moving the same speed as the wizard: 120ft per round, so he's still not closing the gap on his own. Not as comfortable as a 20ft/round advantage, but still workable. Our wizard is only in trouble if the beast can use all three on movement, or if the GM intervenes on Big T's behalf.



Big T still only has a strength bonus of +10. We'd need burst DCs on things like trees (or whether bursting them costs an action at all). Until we have those, there isn't any real rules guidance, so I'd consider it the realm of GM fiat. Trees wouldn't impede shots, since this wizard is already hitting on a 20 and taking disadvantage.

Yea, wizard might not have a challenge shooting through the Trees (On a Riding Horse, at full speed, at long distance, through trees, facing backwards, attempting to draw arrows that are bouncing around or closed .... yea, I think DM might just make a call saying he can't even do it if he wanted to) but his puny little horse can't just bowl them over, therefore you would have to have the horse move Around trees. As soon as it takes a turn to go around more than 2 trees, it will have moved too much to be able to get away. Each turn it does that, Big T gets closer. Each time Big T gets closer, the move likely it is that your wizards mount gets chomped or even just the Wizard.

[Slipperychicken]

Yea, wizard might not have a challenge shooting through the Trees (On a Riding Horse, at full speed, at long distance, through trees, facing backwards, attempting to draw arrows that are bouncing around or closed .... yea, I think DM might just make a call saying he can't even do it if he wanted to) but his puny little horse can't just bowl them over, therefore you would have to have the horse move Around trees. As soon as it takes a turn to go around more than 2 trees, it will have moved too much to be able to get away. Each turn it does that, Big T gets closer. Each time Big T gets closer, the move likely it is that your wizards mount gets chomped or even just the Wizard.

There aren't yet any rules for how efficiently or reliably a tarrasque or a horse can sprint through a dense forest, so a comparison (between movement spent to weave through a forest as opposed to bowling through it) is currently impossible. It could go either way.

[Psyren]

Yep, I'd say that it counts as hands under definition b for sure, and probably under a as well.

"a" specifies "grasping," which hasn't been proven, and the designers could have spelled it out if they had wanted to.
"b" requires resemblance or function, so see "a".


As to coming up with strategies to beat him, that's nice and all, but the dispute was if the Tarrasque would be auto-beaten by a single flying creature with a magic bow. Short answer: no, not automatically.

Since your only strategy so far is "find a building to throw and hope it's allowed to do so" - there are certainly auto-win strategies here. Such as, say, fighting it on a featureless plain.

[HorridElemental]

"a" specifies "grasping," which hasn't been proven, and the designers could have spelled it out if they had wanted to.


I'm sorry but no race or class or whatever had/has "grasping" in their stat block... Hmm going to make it hard for anyone to pick anything up.

Oh WotC how you failed to give us rules for urinating again! Damn youuuuu!

[Slipperychicken]

Since your only strategy so far is "find a building to throw and hope it's allowed to do so" - there are certainly auto-win strategies here. Such as, say, fighting it on a featureless plain.

To be fair, the DM is the one controlling the tarrasque. If he wants that thing to throw a building at the PCs (perhaps in response to trivializing the archetypical end-game boss monster of D&D), it's going to work.


Also, is anyone else worried by the "immune to nonmagical weapon damage" line, when the game is allegedly playable without magic items? Because something tells me that immunity is going to keep coming up.

[Nagash]

Random note/question...

Since big T is the "most dreaded" creature on the material plane then I would expect that the DC to identify the creature would be 0. Kinda like how AIDS is one of the most dreaded diseases, only someone with a massive penalty could fail to know something about it.

So DMs, will the big T be common knowledge, folk lore (shrugged off as over exaggeration), or will it be a secret monster that no one knows of?

I'm gonna go with folklore. Everyone has heard of it, but what you heard is probably not correct or complete.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm gonna go with folklore. Everyone has heard of it, but what you heard is probably not correct or complete.

Just looking at it, one could probably mistake it for a dinosaur or a fiend. Woe betide the poor fool who attempts handle animal, sprinkles holy water at it, thinks a Protection from Evil or Banishment spell will save him, thinks it cannot eat the pure of heart, or believes one can evade its notice by standing perfectly still ("Her vision is based on movement; stay still and she can't see you").

[HorridElemental]

I'm gonna go with folklore. Everyone has heard of it, but what you heard is probably not correct or complete.

Exactly, I love when the MM is treated like this. I like the idea of the MM actually existing in game, though maybe not all in one book, but it may not be up to date or complete.

It makes sense, I mean we have tons of books and websites dedicated to ALL information of real world animals. Why wouldn't rangers or wizards do this, and compile them, in the game world?

Can be fun!

[rlc]

Also, is anyone else worried by the "immune to nonmagical weapon damage" line, when the game is allegedly playable without magic items? Because something tells me that immunity is going to keep coming up.

In this case, I think it's justified. One of the strongest monsters in the game should require special things to beat him.
But I agree that it shouldn't show up too often.

[Demonic Spoon]

The "Immune to nonmagical weapons" line is what stops an army of mooks from killing it with the power of bounded accuracy.

[Kurald Galain]

Exactly, I love when the MM is treated like this. I like the idea of the MM actually existing in game, though maybe not all in one book, but it may not be up to date or complete.

It makes sense, I mean we have tons of books and websites dedicated to ALL information of real world animals. Why wouldn't rangers or wizards do this, and compile them, in the game world?


They would. But bear in mind that it took us in the real world about 500 years (from the start of the renaissance up to now) in order to compile our own evidence, and during that time there were plenty of beliefs held by the scientific community that we now know to be false. Such as the existence of unicorns, or which herbs actually work against disease and which are just placebo, or even knowledge of most of the planets.

So yeah. There's this old elf who always carries a spring of juniper, and he's never been eaten by the Tarrasque. So clearly juniper repels the Tarrasque, yes? Are you going to argue with an elf that's older than your grandfather, you whippersnapper? :smallwink:

Recommended reading material: A Short History Of Nearly Everything.

[HorridElemental]

They would. But bear in mind that it took us in the real world about 500 years (from the start of the renaissance up to now) in order to compile our own evidence, and during that time there were plenty of beliefs held by the scientific community that we now know to be false. Such as the existence of unicorns, or which herbs actually work against disease and which are just placebo, or even knowledge of most of the planets.

So yeah. There's this old elf who always carries a spring of juniper, and he's never been eaten by the Tarrasque. So clearly juniper repels the Tarrasque, yes? Are you going to argue with an elf that's older than your grandfather, you whippersnapper? :smallwink:

Recommended reading material: A Short History Of Nearly Everything.

Hell yeah, and when players get mad cause of what they think they know of the monster from MM this explains the difference within the game.

Well Big T was said to be immune to non-magical weapons but really the people attacking it just sucked (commoner 10) . A Figghter 10 without a magical weapon may be able to hurt the big T.

It comes down to trial and error, more or less :p

[Gemini476]

The "Immune to nonmagical weapons" line is what stops an army of mooks from killing it with the power of bounded accuracy.

Personally I would've just scrapped the whole Critical Hit/Miss system (or made it optional). That way something with AC 23 is unhittable by a Commoner 1 with +2 to-hit, and yet you don't need to get into the whole magical weapon arms race. Giving them a +3 weapon would still let them hit the Tarrasque, but that's a +3 weapon we're talking about.
Y'know, go back to AD&D.

As the system currently is, though, the Tarrasque probably needs the immunity (or regeneration, which would also fix the issue). If the Tarrasque didn't have his immunity he's worth 300 hectopeasants (aka 100 peasants shooting crossbows for 300 rounds). Or 15 hectopeasants, if they don't get disadvantage. Double those numbers if he's given resistance. And given that armies numbered in the thousands at times? Yeah, I can kind of see why they'd make their Godzilla immune to ordinary weaponry. (He can only kill eight people a turn, you know.)

Of course, I would rather have had it so that ordinary people just couldn't harm it in the first place. Hence my suggestion for scrapping crits.

[eastmabl]

I believe a 5th level wizard could do the deed with a riding horse, a longbow, the Magic Weapon spell, and 3000 arrows. The arrows will only weigh 150lb since each pack of 20 is 1lb. His horse shouldn't be overly encumbered.


1. Wizard rides alone into an open plain to confront the tarrasque.

2. Wizard casts Magic Weapon on his bow and fires it each round. If it runs out before the tarrasque is dead, he re-casts it.

3. Assuming the tarrasque Dashes toward the wizard each round for 80ft, then using a legendary action for an extra 20ft (total of 100ft), the wizard's riding horse handily outpaces the beast, Dashing at 120ft. I assume the tarrasque can only do that once per round, because he only has one opponent in this fight. The tarrasque cannot possibly close the distance.

4. Going by RAW regarding improvised thrown weapons, our wizard is safe from hurled houses so long as he keeps 65 feet or more between himself and the tarrasque.

5. If the wizard has dex 12 or more, his (now magical) longbow will deal at least 2d8+2 on a critical. He can cast Magic Weapon up to five times, allowing up to 3000 attacks with it. With disadvantage from range, each shot has a 2.25% chance to critical and deal an average of 11 damage. 0.025*11*3000 = 825: more than enough to kill it.

As noted before, your horse also acts in initiative, bringing up Tarry's max speed to 120 feets, catching your dashing horse.

But assuming arguendo[i] that your horse doesn't grant the legendary action, or you had the common sense to use your third level spell to [i]haste your horse, making speed a non-issue. It takes three thousand shots to do 825 damage, when all you need is 626 damage (or 75.87% of your attacks), meaning that you only need 2276.36 shots at Tarry to fell the foul best. (If you hasted yourself, that's 1138.18 shots).

Let me ask: at a full gallop, weighed down by a wizard and 150 pounds of arrows, just when do you think your horse starts taking Constitution saves to maintain its speed?

I bet your Constitution 13 horse with a +1 bonus to its roll starts failing them long before Tarry and his 30 Constitution does.

[eastmabl]

Personally I would've just scrapped the whole Critical Hit/Miss system (or made it optional). That way something with AC 23 is unhittable by a Commoner 1 with +2 to-hit, and yet you don't need to get into the whole magical weapon arms race. Giving them a +3 weapon would still let them hit the Tarrasque, but that's a +3 weapon we're talking about.
Y'know, go back to AD&D.

As the system currently is, though, the Tarrasque probably needs the immunity (or regeneration, which would also fix the issue). If the Tarrasque didn't have his immunity he's worth 300 hectopeasants (aka 100 peasants shooting crossbows for 300 rounds). Or 15 hectopeasants, if they don't get disadvantage. Double those numbers if he's given resistance. And given that armies numbered in the thousands at times? Yeah, I can kind of see why they'd make their Godzilla immune to ordinary weaponry. (He can only kill eight people a turn, you know.)

Of course, I would rather have had it so that ordinary people just couldn't harm it in the first place. Hence my suggestion for scrapping crits.

Well, the issue with scrapping critical hits is that you don't get the same joy when rolling a natural 20.

And as for the "only killing 8 people per turn," two things are worth noting.

- An army has trouble reigning in a monster that big in pitched battle ("I'll just walk over them," thinks Tarry). If they're in Helmsdeep or the like, you've got walls and buildings the soldiers are on. He might only be able to target one building at a time, but damage from falling 30-40 feet is going to do away with a lot of those soldiers.
- Your average peasant runs away 80% of the time (assuming +0 bonus on a DC 17 Wisdom save). Walking up to an army of 10,000 soldiers and making 8,000 of them cut and run because of the awesomeness wafting from your leathery hide is a good way to even the odds.

[HorridElemental]

Well, the issue with scrapping critical hits is that you don't get the same joy when rolling a natural 20.

And as for the "only killing 8 people per turn," two things are worth noting.

- An army has trouble reigning in a monster that big in pitched battle ("I'll just walk over them," thinks Tarry). If they're in Helmsdeep or the like, you've got walls and buildings the soldiers are on. He might only be able to target one building at a time, but damage from falling 30-40 feet is going to do away with a lot of those soldiers.
- Your average peasant runs away 80% of the time (assuming +0 bonus on a DC 17 Wisdom save). Walking up to an army of 10,000 soldiers and making 8,000 of them cut and run because of the awesomeness wafting from your leathery hide is a good way to even the odds.

Seeing 8,000 of your allies run would probably be justification for giving the other 2,000 disadvantage on their save.

[Angelalex242]

I wonder if the Tarrasque got any better at going mano a mano with elder dragons. Or Solars.

Because an Elder Metallic Dragon or a Solar is your best bet for getting rid of the thing.

He's immune to Fire, so you probably want to call in an Elder Silver Dragon. (Golds breathe fire.)

[SaintRidley]

Tarrasque: The REAL "Barn door that hits back." ... with a Barn.


Tarrasque is the one who is knocked upon.