Warlock Invocations Question

[Wolfsraine]

Some invocations have a level requirement which just reads "Prerequisites: Level 5"

Is that character level 5 or warlock level 5, because it doesnt specify.

[CyberThread]

RAW Character level 5 , RAI , Warlock 5

[1of3]

How do you know what is intended?

[HorridElemental]

How do you know what is intended?

*rolls eyes*

What other class feature is based on character level and not class level?

The only other thing is spell slots but not what level of spells you can cast. Invocations are not spell slots but more like spell known. Spell known is always based on class level.

Or what? Do you think other classes can just puck up invocations because the invocations don't say "warlock level 5"?

[Wolfsraine]

*rolls eyes*

What other class feature is based on character level and not class level?

The only other thing is spell slots but not what level of spells you can cast. Invocations are not spell slots but more like spell known. Spell known is always based on class level.

Or what? Do you think other classes can just puck up invocations because the invocations don't say "warlock level 5"?

What I'm saying is that I should be able to pick up an invocation that has a requirement of level 5 as a warlock 2/fighter 3

I'm not advocating picking up invocations with no warlock levels at all...

[Yagyujubei]

they are a class feature, so you have to be that level in the class. you don't get 20 Ki points to spend just because your character level is 20 and you have 1 lvl in monk.

[Wolfsraine]

they are a class feature, so you have to be that level in the class. you don't get 20 Ki points to spend just because your character level is 20 and you have 1 lvl in monk.

Ki points specifically say that your MONK LEVEL determines them. So that argument makes absolutely no sense.

The warlock invocation only states a prerequisite to be level 5. I'm gonna go ahead and say that yes, a level 3 warlock/level 2 fighter can have the Thirsting Blade invocation.

[hawklost]

Ki points specifically say that your MONK LEVEL determines them. So that argument makes absolutely no sense.

The warlock invocation only states a prerequisite to be level 5. I'm gonna go ahead and say that yes, a level 3 warlock/level 2 fighter can have the Thirsting Blade invocation.

So you submit that a Fighter lvl 5 can pick up the Warlock Invocation since there is nothing in the pre-requisites that say differently.

[Yagyujubei]

Ki points specifically say that your MONK LEVEL determines them. So that argument makes absolutely no sense.

The warlock invocation only states a prerequisite to be level 5. I'm gonna go ahead and say that yes, a level 3 warlock/level 2 fighter can have the Thirsting Blade invocation.

well good luck getting a DM to agree with you bud

[Wolfsraine]

So you submit that a Fighter lvl 5 can pick up the Warlock Invocation since there is nothing in the pre-requisites that say differently.

Not at all. I'm saying that 2 levels of warlock can net you any of the invocations you can meet the prereqs for. The invocations are a class feature, and yes, to get access to them you have to be a warlock. So yes, you need to be a warlock to get ACCESS to invocations. But after that it's fair game as long as you meet the prereqs.

The hell is the point of multiclassing if it works any other way than what I'm saying. Either way, it's a moot point, RAW prereq level 5. Interpret that anyway you want to, but I'm gonna go ahead with the way it's written. More options = more fun anyway.

[Person_Man]

Proficiency bonuses are based on class level. The multi-class rules reportedly have some things stack for determining spells but not others. I have yet to get my hands on the 5E PHB, so I have no idea what the Warlock Invocation rules are. But I do hope that they make the requirements crystal clear. In particular, its easy for a new player to confuse Class level with Character level.

[Yuki Akuma]

The multiclassing rules don't mention invocations at all (despite mentioning the Warlock's Pact Magic class feature), and neither the Eldritch Invocations class feature, nor the preamble to the invocations themselves, clarifies whether the 'xth level' prerequisites mean 'class level' or 'character level'.

[Yagyujubei]

ok so if that's the case and it's intended to work like that, then every melee build ever should take two levels in warlock

[Dark Tira]

ok so if that's the case and it's intended to work like that, then every melee build ever should take two levels in warlock

Not quite that easy. Because Lifedrinker and Thirsting Blade both require Pact of The Blade you need at least 5 levels in warlock to meet that prerequisite and to get an invocation.

[Yagyujubei]

not according to this guy you don't. you just need to have a lvl 5 character, because apparently it doesn't explicitly say that the level requirements for warlocks invocations require actual warlock levels. so as long as you have blade pact and 2nd level, you can have ANY 2 invocations your raw character level cover.

[Dark Tira]

not according to this guy you don't. you just need to have a lvl 5 character, because apparently it doesn't explicitly say that the level requirements for warlocks invocations require actual warlock levels. so as long as you have blade pact and 2nd level, you can have ANY 2 invocations your raw character level cover.

and by raw he's right. That's not my point, you still need to meet all other prereqs as well. You also need Pact the Blade which warlocks don't get until warlock level 3 and the next level after that a warlock gets a new invocation is warlock level 5. So you can get Lifedrinker with a fighter 7/warlock 5, but that's not a small dip and it effectively means there's no way to shortcut to Thirsting Blade. Other invocations that just have level requirements may be more problematic.

[Yagyujubei]

ok so yeah you need lvl 3 for pact boon (thought that was lvl1), but you don't need level 5 lock at all if you only have to worry about raw level for invocations.

you go warlock to lvl 2, then fighter to lvl 2, then 1 more in warlock. you gain the pact boon for blade pact, are level 5, and because you leveled you may choose any invocation you know and switch it with a new one which can now be thirsting blade (blade pact/lvl 5 req.)

[Malifice]

Ki points specifically say that your MONK LEVEL determines them. So that argument makes absolutely no sense.

The warlock invocation only states a prerequisite to be level 5. I'm gonna go ahead and say that yes, a level 3 warlock/level 2 fighter can have the Thirsting Blade invocation.

If your DM lets that fly, then go right ahead.

Thats not what it means though.

[Yagyujubei]

If your DM lets that fly, then go right ahead.

Thats not what it means though.

yeah thats what I said lol, I've been spinning my wheels in the magical world where a DM lets this slide just for the sake of fun, but I highly doubt it will happen lol

[Wolfsraine]

ok so yeah you need lvl 3 for pact boon (thought that was lvl1), but you don't need level 5 lock at all if you only have to worry about raw level for invocations.

you go warlock to lvl 2, then fighter to lvl 2, then 1 more in warlock. you gain the pact boon for blade pact, are level 5, and because you leveled you may choose any invocation you know and switch it with a new one which can now be thirsting blade (blade pact/lvl 5 req.)

Glad you finally understand.

[Malifice]

People arent honestly suggesting that a Paladin 12 can simply take two levels in Walock to add Charisma to damage for ever are they?

I mean come on.

[Dark Tira]

People arent honestly suggesting that a Paladin 12 can simply take two levels in Walock to add Charisma to damage for ever are they?

I mean come on.

Of course not. It takes 3 levels in warlock.:smalltongue:

It's a RAW discussion. It's not likely to actually apply to a game with a live DM.

[Wolfsraine]

People arent honestly suggesting that a Paladin 12 can simply take two levels in Walock to add Charisma to damage for ever are they?

I mean come on.

Not at all, im just saying that if you are a level 14 whatever and then take 2 levels of warlock at 15 and 16 you can pick up the Witch Sight and Master of Myriad Forms invocations.

[Malifice]

Not at all, im just saying that if you are a level 14 whatever and then take 2 levels of warlock at 15 and 16 you can pick up the Witch Sight and Master of Myriad Forms invocations.

And I am saying that that is simply not the case. 'Level 15 requirement is clearly referring to Warlock Level 15'.

Look at the wording for every single other class. They all state 'at 3rd level you gain xxx' and 'at 7th level you gain xxx'. They dont need to refer to 'your 7th Fighter level' because thats self assumed from the very source of the ability itself.

Its not referring to your Character level, its referring to Class level.

But hey, If you wanna read it in such a perverted way, and your GM is fine with it, then more power to you.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Honestly, as a DM, I'd be ok with it.

If you look at something like, say, Thirsting Blade. The prereq is "5th level, Pact of the Blade feature". However, Warlocks only gain Invocations at levels 2 and 5 early on. So you couldn't take Paladin 2/Warlock 3 just to get the feature you'd have to take the full Warlock 5 anyway.

After for something like Lifedrinker I'd actually be ok with a player taking it at character level 12. They'd still need at least 5 levels of Warlock and that's a hefty investment. It's not quite the dip that would make it breakable. If you'd like both Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker than that's a 7 level investment. At that high of level I'm not worried about them having a feature that strong. Everyone else will as well and they've sacrificed quite a bit of investment in their base class.

I think the way the multiclass rules are set up it's much harder to easily abuse multiple classes but at the same time you should be allowed to enter into two classes and keep up with the rest of the group power wise. So I'd allow the level requirements to be character level instead of class. I can't see it breaking anything at this point.

[Malifice]

Honestly, as a DM, I'd be ok with it.

If you look at something like, say, Thirsting Blade. The prereq is "5th level, Pact of the Blade feature". However, Warlocks only gain Invocations at levels 2 and 5 early on. So you couldn't take Paladin 2/Warlock 3 just to get the feature you'd have to take the full Warlock 5 anyway.

After for something like Lifedrinker I'd actually be ok with a player taking it at character level 12. They'd still need at least 5 levels of Warlock and that's a hefty investment. It's not quite the dip that would make it breakable. If you'd like both Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker than that's a 7 level investment. At that high of level I'm not worried about them having a feature that strong. Everyone else will as well and they've sacrificed quite a bit of investment in their base class.

I think the way the multiclass rules are set up it's much harder to easily abuse multiple classes but at the same time you should be allowed to enter into two classes and keep up with the rest of the group power wise. So I'd allow the level requirements to be character level instead of class. I can't see it breaking anything at this point.

By this interpreation you need 4 levels of Warlock.

Warlocks get 2 invocations known at 2nd level. At 3rd level they get 'Pact of the blade' class feature that is the only prerequisite for these abilities (outside of minimum levels).

At 3rd and 4th level they are allowed to swap an invocation known for a new one.

Assuming you let them treat other levels as warlock levels, its a 4 level dip to get both abilities.

Which every Bard and Paladin will be taking if this 'interpretation' is correct.

[Prophet_of_Io]

By this interpreation you need 4 levels of Warlock.

Warlocks get 2 invocations known at 2nd level. At 3rd level they get 'Pact of the blade' class feature that is the only prerequisite for these abilities (outside of minimum levels).

At 3rd and 4th level they are allowed to swap an invocation known for a new one.

Assuming you let them treat other levels as warlock levels, its a 4 level dip to get both abilities.

Which every Bard and Paladin will be taking if this 'interpretation' is correct.

So a 4 level "dip" at 5th level and/or the 5th level dip at 12th? That still doesn't sound too bad. You make it sound like every Bard and Paladin build eve will auto take the 4 warlock levels. I agree that if you interpret it my way people would be much more keen to take 4 levels of warlock than they would 5 but not by that much. Especially since Warlock levels don't otherwise influence multiclass spell levels I don't see the problem with letting players take level appropriate invocations.

[Malifice]

Also, by the same interpretation a Wizard 2 could take 3 levels of Warlock and get Extra attack at the sime time as a stright Fighter/ Barbarian/ Ranger/ Paladin.

If he took actual Fighter levels, he would need to wait untill he was 7th level.

I know which 'interpretation' I will be using!

[Malifice]

So a 4 level "dip" at 5th level and/or the 5th level dip at 12th? That still doesn't sound too bad. You make it sound like every Bard and Paladin build eve will auto take the 4 warlock levels. I agree that if you interpret it my way people would be much more keen to take 4 levels of warlock than they would 5 but not by that much. .

A Paladin only needs a 3 level dip. He will already have second attack by the time he hits 9th level so thirsting blade does nothing for him. He takes his third warlock level at character level 12th and swaps invocation xxx for lifedrinker.

Paladin 9 Warlock 3. Charisma to Hit and Damage (in addition to Strength and Divine Smite... with bounded accuracy in effect) He's already outshining the 12th level Bladelock at the Bladelocks core schtick.

If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.


Especially since Warlock levels don't otherwise influence multiclass spell levels I don't see the problem with letting players take level appropriate invocations

Would you see a problem with allowing a 1 level dip by a Fighter 10 into Wizard at 11th level grant a 6th level spell and slot?

I do.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Also, by the same interpretation a Wizard 2 could take 3 levels of Warlock and get Extra attack at the same time as a straight Fighter/ Barbarian/ Ranger/ Paladin.

If he took actual Fighter levels, he would need to wait until he was 7th level.

I know which 'interpretation' I will be using!

Except the Wizard wouldn't use the extra attack as well as the fighter would. The Attack action doesn't count for casting spells so you're just swinging with the pact weapon twice. At that point why wouldn't you just play a Warlock? I guess for the utility spells? That's a nice Gish.


A Paladin only needs a 3 level dip. He will already have second attack by the time he hits 9th level so thirsting blade does nothing for him. He takes his third warlock level at character level 12th and swaps invocation xxx for lifedrinker.

Paladin 9 Warlock 3. Charisma to Hit and Damage (in addition to Strength and Divine Smite... with bounded accuracy in effect) He's already outshining the 12th level Bladelock at the Bladelocks core schtick.

If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

4 level dip, no? You still need the Pact of the Blade as a prereq, then to swap out an old invocation. Now it's Paladin 8/Warlock 4 and it's still Str to hit and damage with bounded accuracy, the Cha is only to damage (though it's still in addition to Str and possibly divine smite). I see your point but that doesn't look "too good to be true", just synergistic.


Would you see a problem with allowing a 1 level dip by a Fighter 10 into Wizard at 11th level grant a 6th level spell and slot?

I do.

This doesn't at all seem like a fair example. We're not arguing some 1 level dip to grant huge class abilities. The prerequisite for a sixth level spell isn't 11th level (as you can see in the Multiclass spell progression). Waiting 12 levels of anything to add charisma to damage is entirely different than waiting 11 levels to suddenly go from a melee class to a gestalt caster.

[Malifice]

4 level dip, no? You still need the Pact of the Blade as a prereq, then to swap out an old invocation. Now it's Paladin 8/Warlock 4 and it's still Str to hit and damage with bounded accuracy, the Cha is only to damage (though it's still in addition to Str and possibly divine smite). I see your point but that doesn't look "too good to be true", just synergistic.

Warlock 3. You only need Lifedrinker. Thirsting blade is already superceded by Extra attack, which you will already have as a 9th level Paladin.


This doesn't at all seem like a fair example. We're not arguing some 1 level dip to grant huge class abilities. The prerequisite for a sixth level spell isn't 11th level (as you can see in the Multiclass spell progression).

It is a perfectly fair example. What about my Fighter 19 simply taking my 20th level in Barbarian to get +4 to strength and Con?

Why are we making a spcial rule via this interpretation for Warlocks (and only Warlocks) that lets anyone from another class obtain the Warlocks high level abilities, simply by dipping into the class?

I'm reminded of the silliness of ToB dipping. I loved ToB too.


Waiting 12 levels of anything to add charisma to damage is entirely different than waiting 11 levels to suddenly go from a melee class to a gestalt caster.

I disagree. Bounded accuracy. A +5 to damage that is 'always on' is a huge benefit in the context of 5th edition. Look at Barbarians damage bonus when raging. Its a smaller number, and only exists when they Rage.

And youre not 'wating 12 levels'. Youre obtaining the class features of one class for 9 levels then spending 3 levels in another class to obtain the features that class couldnt get till 12th level.

In no other version of Multiclassing (including the rest of 5th edition itself) has this been the case. References within a class description to 'advancing by level' or 'level prereqs' has always referred to levels in the class itself (unless explicitly called out as not).

Im bamboozled as to how people can suddenly see the Warlock as meaning to work the way some people are suggesting.

[Wolfsraine]

And I am saying that that is simply not the case. 'Level 15 requirement is clearly referring to Warlock Level 15'.

Look at the wording for every single other class. They all state 'at 3rd level you gain xxx' and 'at 7th level you gain xxx'. They dont need to refer to 'your 7th Fighter level' because thats self assumed from the very source of the ability itself.

Its not referring to your Character level, its referring to Class level.

But hey, If you wanna read it in such a perverted way, and your GM is fine with it, then more power to you.

Take a look at Monk. Ki specifically calls out monk levels. Look at Monk again, Way of the Four Elements, they specifically call out for levels in the Monk class for any level req of the abilities.

All I'm saying is that if they meant it to be; prerequisite: Warlock level 5, it would say it in the book.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Warlock 3. You only need Lifedrinker. Thirsting blade is already superceded by Extra attack, which you will already have as a 9th level Paladin.

I understand you only want Lifedrinker, that still has Pact of the Blade as a prereq. If you need it for Thirsting Blade you need it for Lifedrinker. 4 levels.


It is a perfectly fair example. What about my Fighter 19 simply taking my 20th level in Barbarian to get +4 to strength and Con?

Why are we making a spcial rule via this interpretation for Warlocks (and only Warlocks) that lets anyone from another class obtain the Warlocks high level abilities, simply by dipping into the class?

I'm reminded of the silliness of ToB dipping. I loved ToB too.

Because the invocations of Warlock still require heavy investment in the class but are much more basic abilities. Each only requires you to be at a certain "class level" as we are interpreting it, but you're twisting it to sound like we believe I can take the 20th level of barbarian at level 20 because I'm at 20th level. That's a high power ability because it rewards you for sticking with Barbarian the whole way. You really think that's similar to taking Lifedrinker at level 12 even though you're only a 4th level warlock but an 8th level Paladin?


I disagree. Bounded accuracy. A +5 to damage that is 'always on' is a huge benefit in the context of 5th edition. Look at Barbarians damage bonus when raging. Its a smaller number, and only exists when they Rage.

And youre not 'wating 12 levels'. You're obtaining the class features of one class for 9 levels then spending 3 levels in another class to obtain the features that class couldnt get till 12th level.

In no other version of Multiclassing (including the rest of 5th edition itself) has this been the case. References within a class description to 'advancing by level' or 'level prereqs' has always referred to levels in the class itself (unless explicitly called out as not).

Im bamboozled as to how people can suddenly see the Warlock as meaning to work the way some people are suggesting.

Because all of the other classes give certain abilities at that specific level in the class. These simply require "Level X". It's not an insane leap of interpretation. Also, it's not like the ability is "Always On" nor is it a straight +5. People assume that everyone's going to be max'd out in their top abilities right away but you won't have that power until late in the game anyway where the threats that you'll face will be appropriate for that. Not to mention more than a few creature are likely to have immunity to necrotic damage, I wouldn't be surprised to see some heal from it.

[Malifice]

Take a look at Monk. Ki specifically calls out monk levels. Look at Monk again, Way of the Four Elements, they specifically call out for levels in the Monk class for any level req of the abilities.

All I'm saying is that if they meant it to be; prerequisite: Warlock level 5, it would say it in the book.

So I only ever need 3 levels in Battlemaster Fighter, and then can take levels in whatever I want (including Wizard) and I still get 2 bonus manouvers at 7th, 10th and 15th 'Character level' ? And my superiority dice go up at 7th and 15th level? WOW! Amazing 3 level dip. I get the powers of an entire archetype for nothing.
You dont see any problem with that?

Read Combat Superiority in the Fighter description under Battlemaster and explain to me why this would not work? It doesnt specifically mention those levels have to be 'fighter levels'.

While youre at it look at the Sorcerers 'Metamagic' special ability. Looks like one only needs a three level dip into Sorcerer to gain all the Metamagic options a full 20th level Sorcerer would get (one at 3rd 10th and 17th regardless of class)

It doesnt need to call out 'Warlock level' becauue this is the express default position of every class description, as it has been since 1st edition. Just like the Battlemaster doesnt need to call out 'fighter levels' and Sorcerer doesnt need to call out 'Sorcerer levels'.

[Malifice]

I understand you only want Lifedrinker, that still has Pact of the Blade as a prereq. If you need it for Thirsting Blade you need it for Lifedrinker. 4 levels.

Three levels. I hit third. Take my pact of the blade class feature. I now qualify for Lifedrinker. I then exchange an invocation I learnt at 2nd level for Lifedrinker (assuming I meet the level requirements, seeing as I now meet the pact requirements).

This is the way it has worked for like ever. Players decide the order they learn class features at the level they learn them.


Because the invocations of Warlock still require heavy investment in the class but are much more basic abilities.

Read the BattlemasterFighter. Explain to me why a three level dip (followed by 17 levels in Sorcerer) doesnt net me bonus manouvers known and increase in superiority dice as if I were a 20th level fighter (at 7th, 10th, 15th etc).

Then look at Sorcerer and tell me why this character was not also using metamagic as good as a straight 20th level sorcerer.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Read the BattlemasterFighter. Explain to me why a three level dip (followed by 17 levels in Sorcerer) doesnt net me bonus manouvers known and increase in superiority dice as if I were a 20th level fighter (at 7th, 10th, 15th etc).
Because you only learn maneuvers on Fighter levels. Just as you would only learn Invocations on Warlock levels. The difference between our arguments being I'm arguing Prerequisites (I'm a 12th level character who just took a level in Warlock (assuming it's at least my 3rd) and decided to take Lifedrinker) and you're claiming that by my logic you auto get class features just for having a few levels. (I'm a 12th level sorcerer who has taken 3 other levels in Fighter but I still get 9 maneuvers known!)


Then look at Sorcerer and tell me why this character was not also using metamagic as good as a straight 20th level sorcerer.

See above.

You really think these are similar examples?
------------------------------------------------------
Edit-Let's take a moment and look at a serious comparison.
Monk and Warlock, as both have features with a similar prerequisite layout.


Page 81
Elemental Disciplines
The elemental disciplines are presented in alphabetical order. If a discipline requires a level, you must be that level in this class to learn the discipline.

Ok, so the Breath of Winter discipline for instance (17th level requirement) actually needs 17 levels of Monk (not the least of which because a Monk can't use 6 ki points on a spell until the 17th level as noted on the chart at the bottom of page 80.

Now let's compare to the Warlock's invocations


Page 110
Eldritch Invocations
If an eldritch invocation has prerequisites, you must meet them to learn it. You can learn the invocation at the same time that you meet its prerequisites.

So you are, in fact, right that one would only need a 3 level dip into the class to learn things requiring the Pact of the Blade feature. However, unlike the monk, nowhere here does it say that the level prerequisites must be in this class. As the RAW goes, that looks legit to me.

[Malifice]

Because you only learn maneuvers on Fighter levels.

The ability clearly states that one I have that ability (gained at Fighter 3) I learn extra manouvers at 7th, 10th and 15th level. It doesnt specifically say 'Fighter level'. Just... level.

Clearly by RAW (and your reasoning), seeing as it doesnt specify what 'levels' they are, I get them at Character level (not Fighter level).

Thats the exact logic youre using here re the Invocations.

Youre basing a class feature of a class which requires a certain minimum level, on character level and NOT on class level in that class. That would be an exception to the rule (and a twisting of the plain language) applied every time the word 'level' is used within a class description in every version of the game since 1st.


Just as you would only learn Invocations on Warlock levels. The difference between our arguments being I'm arguing Prerequisites (I'm a 12th level character who just took a level in Warlock (assuming it's at least my 3rd) and decided to take Lifedrinker) and you're claiming that by my logic you auto get class features just for having a few levels. (I'm a 12th level sorcerer who has taken 3 other levels in Fighter but I still get 9 maneuvers known!)

Why is 'prerequisites' a special case that ignores the rules for every other time 'level' is used in a class feature descriription?


You really think these are similar examples?

I think they highlight the absudity of the argument that Invocations are some kind of 'special' class feature that works totally different by somehow inferring 'level' means 'character level' instead of 'class level' (which it does with every single other class feature where the term 'level' appears without any additional additional qualifier).

Look, its your game, and if it works for you then fine, but Im totally unconvined in the argument.

[Malifice]

Because you only learn maneuvers on Fighter levels.

No it doesnt say that at all. Once you have the ability (gained at Fighter level 3) you gain additional manouvers at 7th 10th and 15th level. Your dice also increase as well.

Nowhere does it specifiy that those have to be 'fighter levels'.

Read the ability man. Its clear it works in your interpretation.

[Wolfsraine]

No it doesnt say that at all. Once you have the ability (gained at Fighter level 3) you gain additional manouvers at 7th 10th and 15th level. Your dice also increase as well.

Nowhere does it specifiy that those have to be 'fighter levels'.

Read the ability man. Its clear it works in your interpretation.

It's written out completely differently. If it was a list just like the warlock's and prerequisites were listed next to each maneuver, then yes, it would work that way. That is not the case however.

This is telling you in the class description (specific to Battle Master) what you get at certain levels. I.E gained at 7th, 10th etc. If for example, the fighters level up table showed x maneuvers at x levels and then some of the maneuvers had level reqs, then sure. But it doesn't, it's listed under the archetype.


Warlock invocations are available to all warlocks and have clear prereqs. Characters level X and/or Pack of X. As long as you have at least 2 warlock levels, you can get almost any of the invocations.

[Malifice]

This is telling you in the class description (specific to Battle Master) what you get at certain levels. I.E gained at 7th, 10th etc. If for example, the fighters level up table showed x maneuvers at x levels and then some of the maneuvers had level reqs, then sure. But it doesn't, it's listed under the archetype.

Exactly. It doesnt mention 'fighter levels' anywhere. A 3 level dip works according to your interpretation of what 'level' means when called out under a class feature.


Warlock invocations are available to all warlocks and have clear prereqs. Characters level X and/or Pack of X. As long as you have at least 2 warlock levels, you can get almost any of the invocations.

I doesnt mention 'character level' anywhere. It mentions 'level'.

So according to your logic (absence of the word 'warlock' in front of level = character level) my fighter 3 dip works as well.

[Prophet_of_Io]

It's hardly the same logic at all. We're not arguing that a Warlock 1/Fighter 4 would get 3 invocations known. It wouldn't, there's no reason for getting class abilities simply for having a single level in the class.

We're arguing that an invocation with the prerequisite of "level 5" is available to one that chooses it at his 5th character level. See the difference?

[Malifice]

It's hardly the same logic at all. We're not arguing that a Warlock 1/Fighter 4 would get 3 invocations known.

Yes its identical logic. Youre arguing a Warlock 3/ Fighter 2 gets higher level powers known.

Unless you want to split hairs between multiclassing allowing 'more abilities known' vs allowing 'more powerful abilities known'.

Because multiclassing tends to favor the first and not the second.


We're arguing that an invocation with the prerequisite of "level 5" is available to one that chooses it at his 5th character level. See the difference?

Nope.

Anyways, run your game how you want mate. I'll be going the other way.

[Cibulan]

I agree with Malifice. His interpretation is consistent with 3.X's multiclass rules which is the chassis for 5th edition's rules. The difference in language between Monk and Warlock is most likely the result of them being written by different people on the team. The monk writer was just more thorough than the Warlock writer. Out of curiosity, what are the page counts in the PHB for Warlock and Monk? If the Warlock page count pushes the upper bounds of pages compared to other classes, removing language from "Warlock level" to "level" would save space.