SO.. how do i expalin to a player that concept is more important than class?

[ngilop]

So, I returned to DMing at tabletop, at the table ( with 2 self explained experts, and a mostly new guy) and I try to tailor adventures and give suggestions based on what their character concept is. One guy (the newbie) went pretty whole heartedly into that and said he wanted to be a duel waraze wielding battle rager who charges in first then asks questions.( not the PrC he does not even know it exists) and Im like that's cool I can work with that.

The other just said "im a fighter' and I was like ok what kind of fighter? to which he just looked at me like 'fighter; was all the answer I ever need.

I said Ok.. well I did some minor changes to the fighter, I expanded their skill list gave them more skill points, well everybody but Int based classes get min 4 skill points and increased their HD to d12. at this point the other player who already claimed he wanted a cleric, but was unsure of what his concept is right now.. he will work on his character as the game goes on in that regards, something I can respect. was lie D12!! that too much, and did you give clerics anything at all

I looked at him and said 'yeah more skill points, clerics get spells, they really don't need any power boosting at all' the guy who just said 'fighter' asked why I beefed the fighter up and I rpelied 'well the fighter is the worse designed and weakest class in the game, it sucks that past 4th level the fighter is rendenered moot by , well just name a class and chances are its better or just as good'

the 2 'experienced' players then tried to convine me that in all their years of D&D the fighter has never been weaker than somebody playing a wizard or druid' I said, well all I know is when I played as a fighter in a party with a druid, I was just marginally better than the wolf animal companion and when the druid got wild shape, I was left in the dust.

have you looked at spells? from lvl 1 on there are spells that completely invalidate not only the fighter but also classes like the rogue and monk' "well, we just never use those spells, that solves that problem"

I shook my head and just said 'lets just get back to making characters.

now I know that im playing with 2 guys who really don't know the game if they are unable to see just by looking at the classes that the way the poor designed fighter is lagging WAY behind other classes ( side note. I tried to push the 'fighter' guy into warblade and even talked it up as the 'WoTC wise-up fighter fix'


I think that if I can just get him to come up with an actual concept for his character maybe I can have a guy who is not refusing to get his fighter patches and instead using the core fighter to spite me. that way I can push things in his general direction that are better than the core fighter.

the cleric has went down that road before not wanting to be anything but a fighter till I showed him the swashbuckler class and a the kensai PrC.

So with the cleric I know he can learn, adapt and change.. and I think if I can get this guy to open up with a more.. detailed concept I can get him on board as well.

I just do not know how to bring it up and I do not want to just be like '; &%^G dumb *^&^ just listen and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DihMQ3P7fRk

[OldTrees1]

So you have 2 players that will not abuse casters and would enjoy Fighter despite its flaws?
I do not see the problem there.


The concept problem is harder to conquer. I assume you have described (in crunch-lite terms) various Fighter characters. You are trying to show that the Fighter has room for customization and that you are curious in what kind of choices the player is thinking of making.

[jiriku]

I agree, I'm not really seeing a problem here. So he doesn't build characters like you would. You're not gonna have to play his character. If you've got two low-op players and a newbie, everyone is playing at about the same level, and with fairly weak characters all around, your task in building encounters for them will be super easy. Just tell a good story and get them involved in the world. When they get into it and start creating the story with you through their choices, fun times will happen.

[yoshi67]

I've played with several people who have been playing for years. When I talked about tiers or how powerful casters are, they gave me weird looks. I asked about possibly taking a PrC and was met with a unanimous line about PrCs just make the classes worse and don't offer much at all. Finally, I had the opportunity to see them play casters, and I can tell they have been playing unoptimized games. I guess they had never played in a group with a powerful caster or are aware of all the gamebreaking stuff they can do. It's not a bad thing, just some people haven't read these kinds of forums where optimization is easily found or played games where wizards or druids dominate fighters. To them, all they know is wizards can cast fireball, and "fighter" is a class as well as a philosophy. Trying to force PrCs or classes they are uncomfortable with isn't ideal, but showing them why casters are so powerful and how PrCs can add depth and flavor to a bland class is a good thing.

[bjoern]

Our party has a guy who is all concept and that's it. Were level 6 and all he can do is make knowledge checks, attack for a max of7 damage, and adds cha to attack and AC.

In a recent encounter against a monster with DR/5 and a CR of 2, all he could do was disarm and trip with his whip and flank for the scout.

Looking at his guy on paper makes him look like jank but making guys prone,weaponless , and flanked makes a significant difference in a melee.

[Extra Anchovies]

One thing that I do when making a new character concept is find a prestige class that looks interesting and has some nice flavor to it (which most of them do), and work backwards from there. Often, especially with multiclass characters, a character concept can spring fairly naturally out of the level progression. An idea I had for a Warlock/Monk/Enlightened Fist, for example, evolved into a character who at first embraces their eldritch powers, then spurns them entirely after a change of heart, and finally resolves to work towards perfecting their inherent abilities, both physical and magical.

Maybe something similar could work with your generic fighter player. Ask him what sort of abilities he thinks of when he thinks about the idea of a "fighter", show him a few prestige classes that seem in line with what he sees in a fighter, and offer to let him retrain feats and skills over the next few levels so he can fit into that class better, and also maybe allow him to retcon his character background to match his eventual character goal. A Fighter 10/Order of the Bow Initiate 10 (to grab a random combat PrC), for example has countless more potential for a character concept than a Fighter 20. The prestige classes that grant one ability throughout their entire progression would probably be best for this; the Kensai you mentioned, Order of the Bow Initiate, Highland Stalker, something where it's based around acquiring one ability and getting progressively better at it.

[Segev]

I take it your "I'm a fighter" guy is a new player.

I'd do your best to help him with his build. If you like, you can introduce various Crown of the White Ravens-like items to introduce maneuvers to him as the game goes on. If he expresses interest in more of that, you can bring up being a Warblade again, either for multiclassing purposes or to do a rebuild (maybe he finds a hidden master to train with who breaks him down and builds him back up).

As far as concept...some people are more motivated by mechanics than fluff. I can get that way, myself (though I always come up with a character built around the skeleton of mechanics, by the end). Ask him simple questions when they might be relevant. Where's he from? Does he have any hobbies? How'd he become a fighter?

Don't pound him with them. But when you're looking for reasons for PCs to interact with things, ask the Fighter if he'd like to have a history element that gives him reason to glom onto the hook.

Concentrate YOUR style of DMing on having NPCs who interact with the PCs as people and who want to motivate the adventurers to adventure on their behalf, and you might start to see them warm up to it.

If they're new, though, hammering them with "concept is important!" just won't work until they've got some play-time under their belt. Let them see how it runs, and talk to them liberally about how to help you create good plot hooks. Reward them when they do by using their hooks to create interesting stories which encourage more IC thinking.

[ngilop]

The 'fighter' guy along with the cleric are the experienced players, the one who wants to be a battle rager is the new one on the block.

and I got the wrong point across I think due to what everybody else's replies have been so far.

I do not care if they are not optimizers, for I myself am not one either. I was just more surprised that guys that 'know the system are have about 10 years experience' honestly feel that the fighter is just a powerful and versatile as the wizard or a druid, then when I (In defense of why I handed the fighter some minor buffs) pointed out the numerous spells that counter and invalidate the fighter ( and rogue) their reply was not, oh we see that now, it was 'we just never use those spells' like to me I was thinking so you KNOW that the X class is what I said but at the same time you are saying that the fighter can do everything and just as good as a full caster?

My main point in my first post was not abou 'how these guys cannot optimize' because I cannot optimize either, but even I can look at the PhB and realize that the fighter never gets anything as awesome as natural spell, and that righteous might is allright.

I was trying to get to the whole, I make a campaign and tailor certain adventures and such for each of my player's characters. and with 'fighter' guy adamantly refusing to give me anything other than 'fighter' how am I supposed to create something that encapsulates his character if literally all his character is, is him saying ' a fighter'

not anything even close as ' a fighter who trips, or a fighter who hates gnomes.. just 'fighter'


I do not give a horse rear end about him not thinking about the class versatility and power disparity, but how can I incorporate his character into the story if he has no personality, no motiviaion, nor anything close to a concept

Like my title says, how can I explain to him that I want to make his character seem special and unique and that I cannot do it If I have no idea what his concept is.

[gc25774]

Easy. Ask him his character's names, motivations, his likes/dislikes, etc. Asking him for a "concept" is a little too complex. Take it with him step by step. Slowly, but surely.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Your title and the content are different. If you want to show them the imbalances, let them reject your buffs and make their characters. Then do the following:

Let them fight an NPC fighter of their level. They should trash it. Show them the XP, and explain how you got there (CR = class level).

Then let them fight an NPC druid of their level, core if possible. Optimize him a bit. It should be a very tough, but winnable encounter. Show them the XP, same way. Ask them which was the harder fight.

[StoneCipher]

As a DM, reward people for coming up with concepts with homebrew items/skills and specialized quests tailored to their concepts. Lead them by the nose down a path that fleshes out their character and makes them much more than a piece of paper. As for the people who want to make a boring character with nothing but stats to their name, then don't give them any special and fun items. If they want to be boring, give them boring rewards. Soon, everyone will be enjoying their new and exciting items and abilities while Mr./Ms. stick in the mud is stuck with a gray wasteland of a PC. Soon, they too will want neat things, and all you have to do is make them earn it.

[OldTrees1]

I do not care if they are not optimizers, for I myself am not one either. I was just more surprised that guys that 'know the system are have about 10 years experience' honestly feel that the fighter is just a powerful and versatile as the wizard or a druid, then when I (In defense of why I handed the fighter some minor buffs) pointed out the numerous spells that counter and invalidate the fighter ( and rogue) their reply was not, oh we see that now, it was 'we just never use those spells' like to me I was thinking so you KNOW that the X class is what I said but at the same time you are saying that the fighter can do everything and just as good as a full caster?

My main point in my first post was not abou 'how these guys cannot optimize' because I cannot optimize either, but even I can look at the PhB and realize that the fighter never gets anything as awesome as natural spell, and that righteous might is allright.

This is mostly a symptom of years of play experience vs years of optimization experience. It is strange but valid(As long as they have fun and don't restrict your fun). I once had a group of players that did not care whether one character of their characters was over-shone by another.

However that was not your main topic. Main topic discussion below.


I was trying to get to the whole, I make a campaign and tailor certain adventures and such for each of my player's characters. and with 'fighter' guy adamantly refusing to give me anything other than 'fighter' how am I supposed to create something that encapsulates his character if literally all his character is, is him saying ' a fighter'

not anything even close as ' a fighter who trips, or a fighter who hates gnomes.. just 'fighter'

I do not give a horse rear end about him not thinking about the class versatility and power disparity, but how can I incorporate his character into the story if he has no personality, no motiviaion, nor anything close to a concept

Like my title says, how can I explain to him that I want to make his character seem special and unique and that I cannot do it If I have no idea what his concept is.
Yeah, this is an issue (especially with your DMing style).

Start by explaining that, as a DM, you want to create an interesting world. Then explain that your understanding of his character helps you make the world more interesting for the three of you (you, him and his character).

Now that he understands your motive and that it is benevolent, start playing 20 questions to learn more about how he sees "Fighter". It might just be that he doesn't know how to describe his preconceptions about the class, so it might be a rich 1 word answer to him.

Finally watch the character in action.

[Sith_Happens]

You're talking two very different ideas at once here. Is the main problem that your group is lower-op than you, or that one of your players sees character classes as the end all be all of character concepts and is making a bland character as a result?

[ngilop]

the only problem I am talking about is that the player just said 'fighter' as his concept for the character, and that is the end all be all of everything he wanted to give me in regards to his character.



it seems that just about everybody focused more on my rant of the 'experienced' players thinking that giving the fighter d12 HP, more skill points and more skills makes it OP compared to the cleric and then saying that the fighter is just as everything as the wizards and clerics of the world then when confronted with some points, they just say ' we ignore those' like that somehow makes everything perfectly fine.

The refusal to accept something I woul just take as a given, is more frustrating and annoying that an issue I thinksneed fixing. I am perfectly fine with players just spaming heals on their clerics and wizard magic missle and fireball 24/7. I can play that fine as a player AND a DM. what kills me is these so called 'experts' semi argued with me that fighter can do everything a wizard can from lvl 1 to lvl 20.

[jiriku]

Many people have beliefs that they cling to without regard to facts. Just try to count the world's religions, or watch a political debate on TV, and that'll become evident to you. There's really not much to do except shrug and live with it.

To get your player in, just be blunt. "Hey it's great that you're playing a fighter, but I'm trying to build a campaign that's tailored to your characters. At a minimum, I need to know what's important to your character and what his goals are, or you're going to get left at the bus stop when the Plot Bus comes along and picks up the other two guys."

It is possible that he'll have nothing to say, even when you press him. If that happens, then what you're looking at is a guy who roleplays as himself. He's probably one of those people who doesn't "roleplay" at all and just plays his character as a set of numbers, not as a pretend person. If that's the case, pretend that he is the character and try to use plots and stories that you think would be interesting to the actual real-life player. I wouldn't stress about it to much. In my experience, people who play like that are usually easy to please and will happily trash and loot whatever dungeon you put in front of them.

[ngilop]

Many people have beliefs that they cling to without regard to facts. Just try to count the world's religions, or watch a political debate on TV, and that'll become evident to you. There's really not much to do except shrug and live with it.

To get your player in, just be blunt. "Hey it's great that you're playing a fighter, but I'm trying to build a campaign that's tailored to your characters. At a minimum, I need to know what's important to your character and what his goals are, or you're going to get left at the bus stop when the Plot Bus comes along and picks up the other two guys."

It is possible that he'll have nothing to say, even when you press him. If that happens, then what you're looking at is a guy who roleplays as himself. He's probably one of those people who doesn't "roleplay" at all and just plays his character as a set of numbers, not as a pretend person. If that's the case, pretend that he is the character and try to use plots and stories that you think would be interesting to the actual real-life player. I wouldn't stress about it to much. In my experience, people who play like that are usually easy to please and will happily trash and loot whatever dungeon you put in front of them.

I would also point to 'main stream' science as ignoring some facts because they mean more work ( but that is mostly aimed at History and archeology, not so much things like chemistry)

Sorry, it just gets under my skin when people make references to those of a more spiritual bent as being ignorant because they are more centered around faith. when if you look closely enough at what mainstream science says built Puma Punku for instance, or claiming the moai are X old when geological evidence points to millennia older, or the spheres in costa rio, the iron tower in delhi or any number of ancient achievements.

[Elkad]

I've been playing a long time, and the majority of my characters are just a cardboard cutout of a class when I start playing them. Over the first few session I'll develop goals, and from that I'll work out a backstory and such.

The character develops itself as I play, I don't shoehorn it into a plan.

So having a player of mine say "I want to be a fighter", with no more than that isn't a problem at all. I figure the same thing will happen, the character will develop a personality as it goes along.

[Knaight]

I'd recommend pulling up a few archetypes. Get some literary character examples that are fighter-like, maybe a few more specific titles (e.g. mercenary, street tough, soldier), and go from there. Starting with a pretty bare-bones character can also work, provided that you have room to expand them.

I'd pull from Fudge on the Fly here - get a one sentence description, highlight their best skill, highlight one character flaw or adverse situation - maybe two, if you really want to. Done. So you might have something like this:

Keso
Description: An army deserter turned wandering adventurer running from his past.
Best Skill: Sniping with darts.
Flaw: Inclined to settle; has to keep running.

It's not a lot, but it's enough to start with. You can also expand into a quick background, again looking for one sentence, with only the most pivotal stuff involved. With Keso, it's that he killed his commanding officer to prevent him from leading the army into a hopeless battle. It could easily be a number of other things.

[backwaterj]

I've been playing a long time, and the majority of my characters are just a cardboard cutout of a class when I start playing them. Over the first few session I'll develop goals, and from that I'll work out a backstory and such.

The character develops itself as I play, I don't shoehorn it into a plan.

So having a player of mine say "I want to be a fighter", with no more than that isn't a problem at all. I figure the same thing will happen, the character will develop a personality as it goes along.

I agree wholeheartedly. For some players the character will develop organically during gameplay, especially if they're at all uncertain of the specifics of the campaign world that shapes it. If this is an experienced player this may be entirely valid.

Or he could be just someone who plays the numbers/plays as himself. Equally valid.

In any case, if that's all the information he'll give you, roll with it. That first level "fighter" may turn into a truly unique and engaging hero over the course of the campaign. Or not. :smallamused:

[Segev]

I encourage you to read my earlier post, OP, as I did address what you are looking for.

In a little more detail, what I would do in your situation is to simply ask the fighter's player what he envisions his character doing in the game. Hopefully, he has at least some idea of what he wants to do to have a good time playing the character. Don't push him for it to be plot-related, or motivation-related, or anything. Just ask him what he wants his fighter to do. What does he picture him doing while the player sits at the table and plays him?

That at least will give you some idea of what role he thinks of his character having in the game, whether that's as a party member or a story element or just as a tool for having a good time with buddies at a gaming table. It should at least give you some clue as to what constitutes that "good time."

The other thing you can do is start by asking for a name. If there's any sort of suggestion of history to that name ("Ironfounderson" might indicate he's got a blacksmith in his family history, for instance), you can make note of that and, if you have an idea for a plot hook that might relate to it, you can ask him about it. Sometimes, players like this are fine with allowing the DM to offer them on-the-fly suggestions for backstory if it helps get them into the game. But do offer them as suggestions. You can even cloak them as leading questions: "You gather up the equipment from the fallen skeletons in the ancient keep's foundry, and-- oh, hey, Ironfounderson. You wouldn't have a family history related to this stuff, would you? Yes? Well, you think you remember something about [something plot relevant], and these shields are forged in a style reminiscent of that." If he says "no," then leave off the extra bit. That's fine. Listen for him to offer, "maybe my character has some background in X?" Look at his skills, and keep your mind on ways in which he might have learned them. Ask about those if that could be a history that hooks him in.

Above all, keep track - internally, at least - of what he does and what motivates him. Let him develop his history from the start of the game, if you like.

Remember: he's built a character and wants to play in your game. If he has no backstory, no concept other than his class, go with generic "meet in the tavern" plot hooks for him. He'll bite because his OOC motivation is to play the game and his character is (currently) just a vehicle to do that. He should be amongst the easiest to motivate; wave the plot hook in front of him and he'll bite. He'll only avoid it if a) you run against some unspoken preference (in which case you should talk to him about it) or b) he (the player) doesn't realize it's there. In the latter case, just paint it neon green and wave it more vigorously; he'll get the hint eventually.