Mass Combat Spell selection

[Rifter-J]

I am looking for advice/tactics on how to handle an army of orcs. Details below:

My GM sprung a mass combat game on us last session in which the player characters must help the last of the elves (including 400 3rd level archer-style rangers, but no casters and the rest are non-combatants) fight off an army of 3,000 orcs(99% are very low level, I know they only have 14 hit points) that are essentially Romans with orc stats.

During the session we were able to relocate the elves to a more defensible position (a wooden palisade fort located on a small island in a river) which I improved upon by reinforcing the wooden fence with two Walls of Stone and creating a second wall 10 feet apart from the first (which I reinforced with a second spell). We were also successful in picking off over 400 of their 1000 archers, all of their siege equipment and almost all of their casters (I suspect there is at least one divine and one arcane caster of 16th-17th level still among their ranks) while the army marched up to the fort.

Once the army arrived and engage us, we killed another 2-300 of their pikemen through the use of a couple evard's tentacles spells and a wand of fireball, before we had to break for the week. The elven rangers have proven ineffective so far.

The player group are all 13th level and consist of a two-weapon fighting ranger, a rogue/shadowdancer, a monk, a gish who casts as a 7th level wizard, another gish who is a 7th level battle sorcerer/5th level abjurrant champion/1st level eldritch knight (who did not take ANY area affect spells but we were able to get him a 5th level wand of fireballs) and myself, a Focused Conjurer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge. None of the other players are any good at optimizing (which is why I went with Mystic Theurge) besides myself.

I have a little leeway on the spells I have memorized but more on the cleric side than wizard. There is supposed to be a party of orcs among the army (the leadership) that is high enough level that they can challenge us so I need to keep a few spells in reserve to deal with them.

So does anyone have any suggestions/advice for me?
:smallsmile:

[VoxRationis]

Firstly, I recommend making a tactical strike against the remaining spellcasters a priority. It's a lot harder to fight 2000 orcs when you've got a person with 8th-level spell slots countering all your own magics.

If that's not feasible, I recommend:
Suggestion. Do NOT use it on high-level characters. Use it on squad commanders, sergeants and the like. Suggest that they attempt to be the first to get the glory of victory by rushing forward. They should get some sort of penalty on their save, given how reasonable the suggestion is to an orc assaulting a group of elves. The confusion will hamper the tactical ability of the orc leadership.

Illusions. True Seeing has limited range (120') compared with the scale of battle. By the time a leader with it available can get in range of illusions you might set up to hide troops or terrain, it's too late. Try combining them with Magic Mouths, cued to start up when somebody says "it's an illusion" or something similar, all shouting the opposite of the likely order someone would give upon sussing out the ruse.

Sleet Storm or Grease, made as large as you can handle. If the orcs are emulating Romans, they've got medium armor and tower shields and therefore a massive penalty to Balance checks.

Wall of Fire. Seriously, this thing is terrifying against troops in formation. I was surprised to learn that victims don't get Reflex saves for the round it pops up in their squares, and it should more or less auto-kill your basic orcs, as well as give concealment and ward off further reinforcements.

Summon Swarm/Insect Plague. Weapon damage is pretty much useless against these summons, and the enemy spellcasters, assuming they have AoEs prepared, will be forced to use them all up to prevent their forces from getting torn apart by locusts.

Invisibility Sphere and a familiar, hawk animal companion, polymorphed wizard, etc. Sneak up to enemy commanders and just follow them around. (Make sure to include the appropriate safety measures in case they spot you.) The beauty of it is that they become invisible, with no save! They can't help but be hidden to all the troops dependent on them for direction!

[Ravens_cry]

One word: Cloudkill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm)
It's time to go World War 1 on those miserable bastards, and may the gods have mercy on our souls.:smalleek:

[Rifter-J]

I would've teleported the group in to destroy all the higher level bad guys (ESPECIALLY the casters) but the GM says that they're all running around disguised as common orcs so we have no way of knowing where they are.


I banned Illusion, Necromancy & Enchantment so don't have access to some of those spells. Sleet Storm, Wall of Fire and Summon Swarm/Insect Plague are just what I was looking for :)


I have 3 Cloudkills locked and loaded! I just wish they moved faster (10 feet per round is easy get out of the way of).

[AnonymousPepper]

I would've teleported the group in to destroy all the higher level bad guys (ESPECIALLY the casters) but the GM says that they're all running around disguised as common orcs so we have no way of knowing where they are.


I banned Illusion, Necromancy & Enchantment so don't have access to some of those spells. Sleet Storm, Wall of Fire and Summon Swarm/Insect Plague are just what I was looking for :)


I have 3 Cloudkills locked and loaded! I just wish they moved faster (10 feet per round is easy get out of the way of).

Arcane Sight will show you who has magical buffs on them and nuke them at leisure, and you can tell the strengths of auras at a glance. Get it permanancied as soon as it is viable. Ideally, gain access to Greater Arcane Sight for instant identifying of all ongoing spell effects.

If you have any good-aligned people who can use them, get a hold of some scrolls of Holy Word. Holy Word is the one of the most effective AoE nukes against your average large concentration of low-level non-good NPCs.

If all else fails, grab a metamagic rod of Fell Drain and cast Fimbulwinter. That's basically guaranteed to kill everything in sight. Unfortunately, the area will be largely uninhabitable due to the resulting Wightocalypse - it will require the efforts of a decent number of mid-level clerics equipped with Soulfire armor to clear the place of wights - but it is pretty much guaranteed to kill an army.

[Erik Vale]

That's why you drop them on the middle of the unit. They can run, but they're still gutted.

Kelgor's Grave mist is also good level 2 [I think] are denial fog that does d4s of damage based on your level [though it's non-lethal]. I'd mostly pick spells to take out squad leaders with lower slots though... Shatterfloor however is nasty level 2 or 3, 15ft radius sonic damage and the ground becomes difficult terrain [Not actually stated, but that's my RACSD].

[VoxRationis]

Arcane Sight will show you who has magical buffs on them and nuke them at leisure, and you can tell the strengths of auras at a glance. Get it permanancied as soon as it is viable. Ideally, gain access to Greater Arcane Sight for instant identifying of all ongoing spell effects.

If you have any good-aligned people who can use them, get a hold of some scrolls of Holy Word. Holy Word is the one of the most effective AoE nukes against your average large concentration of low-level non-good NPCs.

If all else fails, grab a metamagic rod of Fell Drain and cast Fimbulwinter. That's basically guaranteed to kill everything in sight. Unfortunately, the area will be largely uninhabitable due to the resulting Wightocalypse - it will require the efforts of a decent number of mid-level clerics equipped with Soulfire armor to clear the place of wights - but it is pretty much guaranteed to kill an army.

Arcane Sight has the same problem True Sight does: by the time you get within 120 feet of enemy commanders, you're way too committed to your engagement. A better way to find out who the commanders are is to destroy the center with Wall of Fire or Cloudkill and assume the couple of orcs standing amongst the corpses are the commanders.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cast Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAlly.htm) to get a Ghaele Eladrin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm):

Gaze (Su)
In humanoid form—slay evil creatures of 5 or less HD, range 60 feet, Will DC 18 negates. Even if the save succeeds, the creature is affected as though by a fear spell for 2d10 rounds. Nonevil creatures, and evil creatures with more than 5 HD, must succeed on a DC 18 Will save or suffer the fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

[Ravens_cry]

I have 3 Cloudkills locked and loaded! I just wish they moved faster (10 feet per round is easy get out of the way of).
True, but you can use it to herd them into other areas in the process, like into traps and such, like Controlling an enemy's movements can be just as vital as killing them outright, like spiky pits covered with Illusionary Walls. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/illusoryWall.htm) :smallamused:

[Rifter-J]

Already have permanent Arcane Sight, as well as see invisibility, read magic and permanency. I am the only party member with flight (extended (with a rod) overland flight) so if I fly over and discover the whole bad guy party the GM will sick them on me. Come to think of it, I could probably survive long enough teleport out and then come back with the whole party. I may try that!

Our opportunity to go buy things is over so I can't go buy specific items and the GM has decided that magic rods and pearls are broken and isn't allowing any of them other than what I had bought previously (I have 5 first level pearls and some Extend rods). I think he hates magic in general.

As I am a Mystic Theurge, Planar Ally is out of reach at the moment (I get 6th level spells next level). So no Planar Allies and once again, Illusion school is banned so no Illusory Walls (or any other illusions for that matter).

As far as Cloudkill goes, I already have a plan to drop two 60 feet long 20 feet high stone walls 40 feet apart, then place an evard's black tentacles at the far end followed by a Cloudkill heading towards the tentacles. Without any way to get out everything between should be destroyed. I would make it a 130 foot long wall but I'm sure they could could get over a 10 foot wall in that much time. It will take 4 of my highest level spells and will only kill 224 of the 2500+ orcs that are left so not sure it's worth it.

Kelgores Grave mist should be great!

Wall of Fire may be my miracle spell. It's conjuration and I could use contingency and my belt of battle to set up a kill zone 260 feet long in two rounds using the same tactics above. I think I'll drop another cloudkill at the other end, meeting the first one in the middle. Should kill around 440 of them (according to the GM, they are so tightly packed that a fireball kills 64 of them). Only 2000 + 75 trolls to go! Did I mention the trolls?

[Zirconia]

Another nice, though short duration, really large AoE is Flashburst (3rd level Wizard, Spellcaster's Compendium). 120' radius blind.

A tactical suggestion I have is to try to space out your spells a bit more, using two wall of stones and 2 cloudkills, one at each end of the channel, to take out 10% of the orcs isn't necessarily a good tradeoff because you can't do it 10 times in a day to get them all. How about one wall of stone to seal off a group, blind them with Flashburst, and have the elves archer them to death? With the orcs blind, the elves can shoot at them with little risk, and probably take out a few hundred in the 2d8 rounds the Flashburst lasts, for example. Or one wall of stone parallel to the fort wall, and sweep the Cloudkill down that, with a pit at the other end, or homemade caltrops?

Your goal is to use as few spells as possible, and leverage 400d8/round of archer damage and lots of "free" labor every way possible by applying all of them against a subset of the foes. If you can thin the orcs out some, it will be easier to find the high level baddies, who are the real threat since they can do things like Passwall or Stone to Mud your fort walls to let the army in. Assuming they don't use even nastier tricks, but if the DM "hates magic" he is probably not going to employ those shenanigans. It also makes sure that what is left of the army can't get into the fort if you guys lose the fight against the high level bad guys or get captured or something.

To find the high level baddies, try sneaking in at night (or daytime, if the orcs rest then?) with some magic (Alter Self, etc.) to look like an orc. Detect Invisibility won't see through that, use invisibility to hear passwords, Tongues to speak, etc. Then with Arcane Sight, you may be able to spot them before they spot you. Then bring your friends in to ambush them (don't forget Dimensional Anchor to keep them from getting away).

[Rifter-J]

Another nice, though short duration, really large AoE is Flashburst (3rd level Wizard, Spellcaster's Compendium). 120' radius blind.

A tactical suggestion I have is to try to space out your spells a bit more, using two wall of stones and 2 cloudkills, one at each end of the channel, to take out 10% of the orcs isn't necessarily a good tradeoff because you can't do it 10 times in a day to get them all. How about one wall of stone to seal off a group, blind them with Flashburst, and have the elves archer them to death? With the orcs blind, the elves can shoot at them with little risk, and probably take out a few hundred in the 2d8 rounds the Flashburst lasts, for example. Or one wall of stone parallel to the fort wall, and sweep the Cloudkill down that, with a pit at the other end, or homemade caltrops?

Your goal is to use as few spells as possible, and leverage 400d8/round of archer damage and lots of "free" labor every way possible by applying all of them against a subset of the foes. If you can thin the orcs out some, it will be easier to find the high level baddies, who are the real threat since they can do things like Passwall or Stone to Mud your fort walls to let the army in. Assuming they don't use even nastier tricks, but if the DM "hates magic" he is probably not going to employ those shenanigans. It also makes sure that what is left of the army can't get into the fort if you guys lose the fight against the high level bad guys or get captured or something.

To find the high level baddies, try sneaking in at night (or daytime, if the orcs rest then?) with some magic (Alter Self, etc.) to look like an orc. Detect Invisibility won't see through that, use invisibility to hear passwords, Tongues to speak, etc. Then with Arcane Sight, you may be able to spot them before they spot you. Then bring your friends in to ambush them (don't forget Dimensional Anchor to keep them from getting away).

I thought about doing one wall parallel to the fort wall but didn't want to provide cover for the orcs afterward.....although as effective (or lack there of)as the archers have proven so far it might still be worth it. In three rounds, 100+ archers (one wall full) have killed a total of about 15 orcs. The GM's justification is that the archers will have to hit the orcs multiple times in order to kill one orc. I seriously think he's under estimating the what 200 arrows (assuming rapid shot) every 6 seconds would do but he's the GM and he already got snippy with one player for arguing with him about it.

I'm thinking we don't have until nightfall. The GM let it slip that the Orc commanders is trying to get us to use up our spells before assaulting us himself. More and more, I'm thinking that the key to this is taking him and his lackeys out first.

[Rifter-J]

I just found the Blistering Radiance spell. It does 2d6 damage per round/level and is a 50 ft. radius spread. Is there anything stopping me from casting it on the same area twice, causing anyone in the area to take 4d6 per round?

[Rubik]

How about a Chained Polymorph on your highest Cha elves into cloakers, followed by a Chained Cha booster, followed by Chained Greater Ironguard? March into their ranks and start moaning.

Make sure to cast Chained Enlarge Person and Chained Curse of Lycanthropy first to make them were-elephants for extra hit dice.

[Zirconia]

I thought about doing one wall parallel to the fort wall but didn't want to provide cover for the orcs afterward.....although as effective (or lack there of)as the archers have proven so far it might still be worth it. In three rounds, 100+ archers (one wall full) have killed a total of about 15 orcs. The GM's justification is that the archers will have to hit the orcs multiple times in order to kill one orc. I seriously think he's under estimating the what 200 arrows (assuming rapid shot) every 6 seconds would do but he's the GM and he already got snippy with one player for arguing with him about it.

I'm thinking we don't have until nightfall. The GM let it slip that the Orc commanders is trying to get us to use up our spells before assaulting us himself. More and more, I'm thinking that the key to this is taking him and his lackeys out first.

Volley fire might help with the first. 4 groups of Elves, in each group; Elf 1 fires at an orc (twice with Rapid shot). Elf 2 readies an action to shoot at the same orc as Elf 1, as soon as he sees which orc it is. Elf 3 does the same, Elf 4 does the same. That is 6 shots (the readied actions won't get the double rapid shot, since a readied action is a standard action) at an orc, even with just a 50% chance of hitting, 3d8 has a fairly good chance of dropping a 14 hit point orc. 100 elves = 25 orcs/round getting shot with that. I can't imagine the DM wants to roll all 200 tohits and damages, I suggest using averages.

Maybe Wall of Smoke, 1st level spell, or Fog Cloud instead of Wall of Stone to separate the orcs so you can focus fire on them?

I agree the high level guys are probably trying to get you to use up spells, its what I'd do, which is why I suggest being as conservative as possible with them.

[Zirconia]

New idea, rather than real Walls of Stone, Fog Clouds, and such, use Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image. As long as you concentrate, you can keep generating new effects, and the added bonus is maybe you can convince the high level bad guys you are using up your spells when you aren't really, so they will attack when you still have reserves. Try to stick to visual effects, so the orcs can't "interact" with them like they could a real stone wall and find out they are illusions. A "sculpted" Fog Cloud should be good to cut off a small batch of orcs for your archers to shoot at, rinse and repeat.

Depending on how tough your DM is, you may have to come up with a rationale why you can use the same illusion spell to generate multiple effects. One possibility is that they are coming from various wands someone is switching between, another is that someone gestures arcanely for each one. I suggest having the "caster" in these cases be part of the illusion, just so that they can draw fire, as your bowmen shoot the orcs. If the illusionary caster casts through a mantlet hole (like an arrow slit), they will be hard to hit, and can be plausibly "healed up" between rounds. You might even mix in a couple of shots from that wand of fireballs you mentioned.

The other bright side is that the illusionary caster may draw fire from your high level commanders, so you can pinpoint them.

If they catch on, and start ignoring the illusionary fog clouds, feel free to simulate Cloudkill a couple of times, complete with shrieks of orcs dying for the auditory component, until they ignore that and throw a real one in the illusionary fog cloud so they can't see their buddies dropping. :)

Oh, and replace Wall of Stone for paralleling the fort wall with Wall of Fire, 20' out, everyone within 20' of the fort wall dies. Just bring the ends over to the fort wall to close it. One level lower than Cloudkill, does the whole job itself, so much more efficient.

[Rubik]

Depending on just how high of an optimization stealing your group has you may want to consider taking tips from this. (https://m.fanfiction.net/s/9669819/1/The-Two-Year-Emperor)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Spiritwall seems like it would be good.

[Rubik]

The Invisible Spell feat would be a great way to keep your spells from being found until it's too late

[Vaz]

Lesser Planar Binding/Ally a Succubus. Have it either take the form of an Orc Soldier, or become Ethereal. Go into the tent of the Orc Commanders and then Charm and Suggestion. Use those abilities to have the generals order some of their units away - perhaps some maps of an attack planned on the orcs rear. This will reduce the size of the enemy forces - the suggestion allows for 12 hours, and with a forced march, can cause many of the army to become fatigued (unless your DM believes non-lethal damage is harmful).

In either case, half of the enemy is 24 miles away.

Although with the higher level characters around, you're going to want to use it to trigger particular "withdrawal" triggers within the brain during the conflict - promise of reinforcements, or scheduled bombardments etc.

[NecessaryWeevil]

So it sounds like their strategy is to sacrifice as many of their own troops as necessary, then crush you when you've run out of resources.

Must you play their game? Is there a compelling reason to defend this location to the last man? If the noncombatants are in the fort, is it possible to evacuate them?

If so, then maybe you can invite the orcs to accept massive casualties with the prospect of eventually overwhelming your defences and inflicting a decisive defeat. But as your resistance slackens and they come pouring over the walls, they discover that the noncombatants are gone, you withdrew half your force hours ago, you've used your last magics to flee, and they've taken hideous casualties to capture a mostly empty fort and massacre those elves who volunteered for a sacrificial rearguard action. Clutched in the dead hands of the fort's commander is a scroll labelled "Evacuation Plans."

It contains the words, "I prepared Explosive Runes this morning."

If they're still game, they can chase you and fight you again tomorrow. You and your fresh complement of spells.

[Rifter-J]

Spiritwall(a necromancy spell) and illusion spells are off limits for me as necromancy and illusion (as well as enchantment) were all banned by me when I specialized. The 8th level caster in the group has only players handbook spells (and I think the only illusion spell she has is multiple image) and the sorcerer, obviously, has chosen his spells (also mostly players handbook). Most of my feats went to persisting 3 spells and the only metamagic feats I have are persist (not usable at this level without DMM) and Extend. The other two casters don't have any metamagic feats that I know of and they would be PHB if they do. The DM has banned the sale of any more metamagic rods and pearls too (although I have some Rods of Extend and 7 1st level pearls that I got before he banned them.)

I will try the volley thing but I'm not sure the DM will think they have that much discipline.

I have come up with a plan that could potentially kill 1500+ of the orcs. It is spell intensive but for 1500 might be worth it. The wall is supposed to be 150 feet long on one side and there is a river another 150 out from the wall. The orc army's camp is on the other side of the river. 260 feet away from the wall, 110 feet on the side of the river I will cast Wall of Fire which has a total length of 260 feet at this level, hot side pointing back towards the fort. Next round I will use my belt of battle for an extra action, then drop two more walls of fire 150 feet apart, parallel to the outer walls, hot side pointing towards each other. The result should be a 260 long box of fiery death with a 50 foot wide lane of safety in the middle. Over the course of the next three rounds I will be casting Blistering radiance on that center area, starting at the end and working my way back up the wall of the fort. It will cost 4 4th level wizard spells and one 5th level cleric spells but if the orcs are all tightly packed in that area then by my calculation it will kill 1560 orcs and I will still have all of my 3rd level and lower spells to deal with the rest and BBEG.

Can anyone think of any problems I might have to deal with to make this work or have any better ideas?

[bjoern]

Spiritwall(a necromancy spell) and illusion spells are off limits for me as necromancy and illusion (as well as enchantment) were all banned by me when I specialized. The 8th level caster in the group has only players handbook spells (and I think the only illusion spell she has is multiple image) and the sorcerer, obviously, has chosen his spells (also mostly players handbook). Most of my feats went to persisting 3 spells and the only metamagic feats I have are persist (not usable at this level without DMM) and Extend. The other two casters don't have any metamagic feats that I know of and they would be PHB if they do. The DM has banned the sale of any more metamagic rods and pearls too (although I have some Rods of Extend and 7 1st level pearls that I got before he banned them.)

I will try the volley thing but I'm not sure the DM will think they have that much discipline.

I have come up with a plan that could potentially kill 1500+ of the orcs. It is spell intensive but for 1500 might be worth it. The wall is supposed to be 150 feet long on one side and there is a river another 150 out from the wall. The orc army's camp is on the other side of the river. 260 feet away from the wall, 110 feet on the side of the river I will cast Wall of Fire which has a total length of 260 feet at this level, hot side pointing back towards the fort. Next round I will use my belt of battle for an extra action, then drop two more walls of fire 150 feet apart, parallel to the outer walls, hot side pointing towards each other. The result should be a 260 long box of fiery death with a 50 foot wide lane of safety in the middle. Over the course of the next three rounds I will be casting Blistering radiance on that center area, starting at the end and working my way back up the wall of the fort. It will cost 4 4th level wizard spells and one 5th level cleric spells but if the orcs are all tightly packed in that area then by my calculation it will kill 1560 orcs and I will still have all of my 3rd level and lower spells to deal with the rest and BBEG.

Can anyone think of any problems I might have to deal with to make this work or have any better ideas?

If your DM doesn't like you roasting all his orcs he might give them some kind of fire resistance (as it is the most likely danger to be encountered it would be the most likely to be resistant to.) I'd reccomend poking the orcs with something small first like a scorching ray or fireball. That way a small number of them can be cooked. If they had a fire resistance youd be able to figure it out then rather that once you've played your whole hand.

[Rifter-J]

So it sounds like their strategy is to sacrifice as many of their own troops as necessary, then crush you when you've run out of resources.

Must you play their game? Is there a compelling reason to defend this location to the last man? If the noncombatants are in the fort, is it possible to evacuate them?

If so, then maybe you can invite the orcs to accept massive casualties with the prospect of eventually overwhelming your defences and inflicting a decisive defeat. But as your resistance slackens and they come pouring over the walls, they discover that the noncombatants are gone, you withdrew half your force hours ago, you've used your last magics to flee, and they've taken hideous casualties to capture a mostly empty fort and massacre those elves who volunteered for a sacrificial rearguard action. Clutched in the dead hands of the fort's commander is a scroll labelled "Evacuation Plans."

It contains the words, "I prepared Explosive Runes this morning."

If they're still game, they can chase you and fight you again tomorrow. You and your fresh complement of spells.

We chose this location because there was a wooden palisade fort already there(which I reinforced with walls of stone) and it was the closest defensible place we could get them to.

Unfortunately, when I created the walls around the fort I neglected creating a gateway of any kind (a ramp was used to come and go over the walls) as I saw them as weak points or of creating a secret way out of any kind. I now regret that but it is what it is.

I had 5 wall of stone spells per day to work with and two days to make preparations. I reinforced the wooden wall with two of the walls(6 inches of stone, total) and created a second six inch thick wall 10 feet out from the original wall. I used the remaining two walls to shore up a small gap where my spells couldn't quite reach. About the first thing I plan to do on Sunday is to have the elves retreat from the first wall (using planks crossing the distance, which shall be discarded after they cross) giving the elves a 10 foot wide lane of death to fire upon. PCs can drop down into the area as well to shore up any real potential breaches.

[Rifter-J]

If your DM doesn't like you roasting all his orcs he might give them some kind of fire resistance (as it is the most likely danger to be encountered it would be the most likely to be resistant to.) I'd reccomend poking the orcs with something small first like a scorching ray or fireball. That way a small number of them can be cooked. If they had a fire resistance youd be able to figure it out then rather that once you've played your whole hand.

The other two casters have already fire balled them some. :)

[AvatarVecna]

1) Cloudkill. I can't emphasize this enough: not only will this auto-kill all the low-level troops, but any of the higher level ones will have to deal with save or Con damage every round unless they're poison-immune. If any orcs survive past the first few rounds of exposure, congratulations! You've found the leadership! Bonus points for making it an Invisible Cloudkill. Interesting note: despite the spell's effect (a giant cloud of poisonous gas) being invisible, the spell still limits vision beyond 5 ft and gives varying levels of concealment, all by RAW. RAI disagrees, and your DM as well, no doubt, but still...Anyway, Widen is another good metamagic to throw on there, but that would be an 8th lvl spell, likely unavailable. Instead, use Extend to make it last even longer. Use your other spells to force enemies to stay within its area.

2) Polymorph. Oh, you have a whole bunch of non-combatant commoners available? You also have some powerful melee-ers? Would things be better if they were, oh, a Hydra?

3) Combine Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Shrink Item, and a catapult. Set up your own rolling boulder trap.

4) Control Weather, if available. Let's you literally rain on their parade.

Well, that's my two coppers.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm going to suggest an alternate strategy: Turtling.

You're currently embroiled in a siege. Sieges are almost always won and lost on logistics, and your party has enough magic to render normal logistical concerns (i.e.- keeping everyone fed and not dying of disease) moot. Keep reinforcing your defenses until no number of rank-and-file soldiers could possibly breach them. At that point, the commanders will have to come to you. Be ready for their assault, kill them, and then deal with the grunts at your leisure (though bringing them their commanders' heads ought to send most of them fleeing).

There's one major flaw in this plan: The pair of alleged 16th-17th level casters. The longer you spend on the defensive the more time they have to do high-level-caster-y things, and the more time they have to do high-level-caster-y things the more screwed you are. If there's any way you can identify and gank them sooner rather than later, do so.

[daremetoidareyo]

Don't forget 2nd level spells like web and briar web. Augury may be helpful as well.

[Vogonjeltz]

I am looking for advice/tactics on how to handle an army of orcs. Details below:

My GM sprung a mass combat game on us last session in which the player characters must help the last of the elves (including 400 3rd level archer-style rangers, but no casters and the rest are non-combatants) fight off an army of 3,000 orcs(99% are very low level, I know they only have 14 hit points) that are essentially Romans with orc stats.

During the session we were able to relocate the elves to a more defensible position (a wooden palisade fort located on a small island in a river) which I improved upon by reinforcing the wooden fence with two Walls of Stone and creating a second wall 10 feet apart from the first (which I reinforced with a second spell). We were also successful in picking off over 400 of their 1000 archers, all of their siege equipment and almost all of their casters (I suspect there is at least one divine and one arcane caster of 16th-17th level still among their ranks) while the army marched up to the fort.

Once the army arrived and engage us, we killed another 2-300 of their pikemen through the use of a couple evard's tentacles spells and a wand of fireball, before we had to break for the week. The elven rangers have proven ineffective so far.

The player group are all 13th level and consist of a two-weapon fighting ranger, a rogue/shadowdancer, a monk, a gish who casts as a 7th level wizard, another gish who is a 7th level battle sorcerer/5th level abjurrant champion/1st level eldritch knight (who did not take ANY area affect spells but we were able to get him a 5th level wand of fireballs) and myself, a Focused Conjurer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge. None of the other players are any good at optimizing (which is why I went with Mystic Theurge) besides myself.

I have a little leeway on the spells I have memorized but more on the cleric side than wizard. There is supposed to be a party of orcs among the army (the leadership) that is high enough level that they can challenge us so I need to keep a few spells in reserve to deal with them.

So does anyone have any suggestions/advice for me?
:smallsmile:

Kick back and relax. If their leadership is too stupid to build new siege engines and employ indirect fire while surrounding the fort to cut off escape, starving your force to death (300 elves and you are the only casters!), they aren't anything to worry about. Given the tactics shown thus far I'd imagine another suicidal frontal assault is in the works.

If you know it, Wall of fire is fairly reasonable, seeing as you can just throw one up blocking any give approach indefinitely. (Most of the orcs would die trying to pass through). Of course that doesn't solve the supplies problem should the Orc horde suddenly get taken over by someone who isn't trying to get his entire force destroyed.

[backwaterj]

Since it's implied that they want you to blow your load on the horde, and you've severely crippled their ranged capabilities, I'd suggest sticking to a few low-level spells to control the onslaught while the archers take them out. Specifically:

Obscuring Mist. Those remaining archers think they can hit you? Think again. Not to be used around the elvish archers for obvious reasons.

Web. While these orcs likely have good Strength scores, they're unlikely to have good Reflex saves and so at worst it will slow them down a few rounds (which with tightly packed troops is significant). Not to be used if they're carrying fire for obvious reasons.

And my personal favorite: grease. As VoxRationis mentioned, those orcs are likely to have horrible Balance checks. Cast strategically given the small area; I'd save at least a couple for a breach or, for full comedic effect, if they scale the walls (nowhere in the description does it say that 10' square has to be horizontal :smallwink:).

These are all conjuration spells, for an added bonus.

If retreat becomes necessary, and assuming you have access to 3rd level cleric spells, keep a couple Stone Shapes in reserve. Problem solved (beware as a canny enemy cleric may try the same tactic in reverse). That illusion spell your other caster knows could come in handy as a diversion. And of course Create Water/Purify Food and Drink if you expect an extended siege.

[Rifter-J]

I think I've worked out what I am going to do, assuming I can get the cooperation of my group. However, the 75 trolls are still worrying me a little. I think they're just regular trolls and not War Trolls (god I hope they're not, elves are screwed otherwise). The only weaknesses they have that I can see that I can exploit are weak will and reflex saves. Anyone have any other insight that we can use against them?

[Erik Vale]

Can you create any deep pits with your spells? If so when they attack, put them in deep pits and hope they don't have climb, that way you don't have to worry about killing them.

[Rubik]

Muggle molotov cocktails. Stuff rags into bottles of oil and have everyone light and throw.

But first, throw bags of flour to create large clouds. Introducing flames to airborne flour results in a massive explosion.

Also, a single casting of (Psionic) Minor Creation for a few dozen thousand doses of poison.

[Rifter-J]

Can you create any deep pits with your spells? If so when they attack, put them in deep pits and hope they don't have climb, that way you don't have to worry about killing them.

Move Earth (oh god do I wish I had Move Earth prior to this) and Disintegrate are one level away for me and those are the only spells I know of that could do that.

[Rifter-J]

Muggle molotov cocktails. Stuff rags into bottles of oil and have everyone light and throw.

But first, throw bags of flour to create large clouds. Introducing flames to airborne flour results in a massive explosion.

Also, a single casting of (Psionic) Minor Creation for a few dozen thousand doses of poison.

It might be too late for the molotovs but if there is a significant delay in the attack, I will certainly push for it. The flour thing is an awesome idea that I will incorporate into another part of my plan. None of the party has any psionics (DM won't allow it).

[Rubik]

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZLRbVw3RnM) is an explosion caused by a single bottle rocket, in case you want to see some flamey goodness.

You may also want to adopt some of the strategies as posed by Lycanthromancer in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?155518-Tucker-s-Kobolds-PEACH-3-5)

Also also, Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm) is also a spell. Also.

[Rifter-J]

For those who wanted to know how it turned out, I created a 260 foot long 150 foot wide box of firey death with four walls of fire and the help of the Shadowdancer (who used his illusion ability to create an illusion of a wall of fire). Between 900 and 1500 Orcs died there which took the fight out of those left (which ran away). Then the leadership teleported inside the fort and we disposed of them with relative ease. I won initiative and cast stinking cloud, nauseating the wizard which never got to act beyond the teleport. The next round I cast slow which got the assassin and one of the rogues in the party took out the cleric in the same round. That left the fighter which only got one round of full attack before he was killed.

Now we're going through a dungeon full of golems....I'm pretty sure the DM hates me. ;)

[Rifter-J]

Oh, and thanks for all of the suggestions!