Am I a Stubborn Min/Maxer

[CovaDax]

So I'm in a group with a group of friends and playing a "Paladin", I told the group at the beginning I planned on playing a Paladin but rather than using the actual class, I went with a Cleric instead, gearing him as a combat Cleric with a personality more similar to a Paladin.
We're all new to the game, but me and one other player are invested enough to be really familiar with the options available to us. I chose from the beginning to go follow an Ordained Champion Battle-Cleric build. The DM and the other savvy player (playing a Marshal) are of a more fluid, make the character as they go style, and disagreed with my more planned-out character build.
A few sessions in, the party has some trouble. Probable two or three times I'm the last survivor of a battle and proceed to heal the party up. The Marshal tells me to "Only prepare Healing spells" so we don't die. I object and say that while I can spontaneously cure if I had to, Healing is not my main focus and will only do it when necessary (as a Cleric of Hieroneous). In the early sessions I was not confident enough to use my spells for purposes other than healing and generally saved my slots for emergencies.
In between sessions I point out a feature of the Ordained Champion and say that I will eventually lose the ability to spontaneously cure and sometime before level 5 we should find alternative means of healing, like a wand.
Everyone objected, saying that they a LG Cleric should be healing his comrades and blamed me for the previous near-wipes because I wasn't healing injured party members, and only restored everyone after combat. I again said that as a Cleric of Hieroneous my character would use his spells for vanquishing evil and defending himself, not solely for healing, and with the personality as a Paladin he would fell his foe before assisting injured party members. The Marshal argued that it's a wiser decision to heal his allies before they fall unconscious to avoid those problems.
At level 2 the DM allows one last chance to retcon our characters because of our inexperience. I stay the same. The Marshal decides to become a Healer (the class) saying that I said I refused to heal. He and the DM claim that I was more adamant about not being a healer and sounded like I was never going to heal (which was possible, but not what I meant to say). We talked him into a Dwarf Cleric of Moradin to become the party Healer/Tank allowing me to stay as the "min/maxing Paladin" and given freedom to prepare my sells how I wish.
I keep getting the sense of resentment from the group and I fear that I may have been too defensive thinking I was being pidgeon-holed as a Healer. The Marshal said that rather than making a War-Cleric I should have just homebrewed the Paladin to make it more viable, then he would't have expected me to heal, should I have? Am I being defensive and stubborn by sticking to my Paladin-Holy-Knight ideal and not healing as much as I should? Should I drop the idea of planning my character out and go with their, go-with-the-flow style? Let me know what you all think, I could really use the input.
I really love this game and probably take it a bit more seriously than I should. But my idea of the character I want to make is often ruined by my inexperience and party-drama and it's making the game a bit less fun.

[eggynack]

I don't think the problem here has anything to do with planning or min/maxing. All in all, it has far more to do with the age old story of folks thinking that clerics should be shoe horned into healing, despite the fact that they don't need to be. As for solutions, by my estimation, both you and the other players are being "stubborn". You are stubborn in wanting to be this war cleric, and they're stubborn in wanting you to be a healer. The difference is, you're the one that gets to be stubborn with your character, and if your party members or DM want to be stubborn, then they can do that with their own characters/world. I would also advise picking up a wand of lesser vigor, because it's cheap, powerful, and should handle most healing issues. You could take the stance that you told them to pick one up, and they didn't listen, but it's probably not the best idea to pick a 750 GP item as your battle of choice.

[CovaDax]

Thanks, I didn't mind doing emergency healing, but the group kept saying things like "stop complaining, we only made it this far cause you were there to heal" I just didn't like the reaction to me saying I was not going to be a dedicated healer forever, and a character switches to a dedicated healer. I got the impression I was doing something wrong.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's nothing wrong with expecting a divine caster to throw a heal when it's needed. When your party demands that you cast nothing but healing spells though it usually means they have neglected their defenses. It's not your responsibility to save the others from spending gold and build resources on survivability.

If they constantly need in-combat healing tell them to buy a Healing Belt (MIC), get a Vampiric (MIC) weapon or invest in AC, miss chance, DR or similar things.
Throwing up a few long-term defensive buffs like Magic Vestment is a better investment of your spell slots because preventing damage beats healing it and saves your actions in combat for killing things.

You can also throw out some BFC but the cleric spell list isn't really all that good for that. There's domains to remedy that but it sounds like you'd rather hit things. If your party has a wizard or druid they should take care of BFC anyway because they're better at it.

[Mountain]

I would also advise picking up a wand of lesser vigor, because it's cheap, powerful, and should handle most healing issues.

That's Lesser Vigor. Not trying to be picky; just pointing it out in case he didn't know what you meant.

I had this exact same problem several times with a group I used to play with. (I like clerics.) They were all of the opinion that clerics were healers. A cleric who didn't spend the whole fight standing behind the fighter casting cure spells every round was actively trying to sabotage the party.

I pointed out that the cleric has a weapon proficiency for a a reason, and that their spell list is varied enough to fill any role, including buffing, summoning, battlefield control, or even blasting if you're into that.

I think the real problem is that clerics are very powerful and self-reliant. You don't need the party, but they need you. They want a cheerleader to make them look good, but what they have is a powerhouse of a full caster making them look weak. (which they very well may be, if they're unfamiliar with the system.)

Edit: Nevermind, you already fixed it.

[CovaDax]

Yup I definitely recommended they look into items like that when they get the chance. Problem is, we started with the Sunless Citadel campaign and have had no chances of finding magic items or wands. We're currently only 2nd Level.

I said I would help how I could at low levels, and have probably been too timid to cast other spells for fear of party wipe. Typically it comes down to me as the last survivor and in hindsight was scolded for not keeping the party afloat by allowing them to go down. I didn't think a Cleric of Hieroneous would be that concerned with mid-combat healing would he?

[yoshi67]

I think it's important before a game starts to let everyone know healing isn't a focus if you're playing a battle cleric, and to consider you more like a fighter with a few healing potions that regenerate. I've played in game with and without clerics, and tactics do change. I've see players charge things that in other games they would be more cautious of because they have the HP cushion of a healer. However, it's not solely your responsibility to provide healing. As a cleric, I would expect you to provide emergency heals, but if your using the bulk of your spells for buffing, the group needs to find something else, the DM needs to provide something, or encounters need to be less challenging.

[CovaDax]

Yeah that's what I thought. I tried to make it clear early on, but I was called a min/maxer for planning so far ahead. When I expressed my frustration for saving all my slots for healing (which was probs my fault) and kept warning that once I take Ordained Champion I'll become a less potent healer the reaction of a player just switching to a Cleric made me think I was being a baby or something.

[Crazysaneman]

You haven't done anything wrong, you have a goal for your character to achieve. That's a good thing. When your group meets up ask the DM to let you have a few minutes of game time to show the other, more inexperienced players the spectrum a cleric can fill. Also, remind them that as a Paladin type cleric you are more focused on "smiting evil" then healing, you just chose more spells and utility of a Cleric over the smite evil and martial proficiency of the paladin title.

Show them the list of cleric domains, then ask them how many are healing domains. That cured my group fairly well and we have had NG necro clerics and battle clerics as a result.

Even more bonus points, +1 internet if you can show them how a cleric can fill each of their roles... and get them all playing clerics. Nice.

GGWP
CSM

[Crake]

Yeah that's what I thought. I tried to make it clear early on, but I was called a min/maxer for planning so far ahead. When I expressed my frustration for saving all my slots for healing (which was probs my fault) and kept warning that once I take Ordained Champion I'll become a less potent healer the reaction of a player just switching to a Cleric made me think I was being a baby or something.

People tend to use min/maxer pretty loosely, sometimes when they clearly don't know what they're talking about. Planning out your character beforehand is a smart way to play unless your DM is very leniant about retraining stuff, because in 3.5, qualifying for stuff requires a significant amount of forethought. That and the fact that some people like planning out their characters. Hell, it's even possible to play it both ways by planning your character out how you want it, and then, if things change, just re-planning the character out. There's nothing min/max-y about it, just dumb people calling others out for not playing the game the way that they think it should be played. I've run into the same problem quite a bit, where people got the impression I was trying to min/max, which didn't even make sense, because we rolled stats, so there was nothing else really left to min-max, just make the right decisions.

tl;dr: ignore it when people say you're min-maxing

[CovaDax]

tl;dr: ignore it when people say you're min-maxing

Yeah I've been trying to, but it feels like I'm being made the bad guy or the "that guy" of the group. I'm the only one who thinks differently, and they're IRL friends, so I don't want to leave the group if I can help it.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, by the sound of it you did everything right. Remember though, on low levels healing is needed from one source or another - you will take damage and there are no easy ways to sustain through it (ever tried to play through a game using only Healing Potions? Don't, you'll spend more money on them than you'll earn.). Once you can get a Wand, a healer is not even necessary. Before then tho, it is somewhat necessary for someone to top the party out; when you're talking about levels where everyone can get 1-shot by a single lucky crit, you really don't want to take your chances.

Overall tho, you're just being treated as the age-old Cleric Bandaid. It's the other players' expectations that don't match the game; they'd be more in home in e.g. AD&D to be honest. Once they begin to see how the game works a bit more they should be less bullheaded about this.

[eggynack]

tl;dr: ignore it when people say you're min-maxing
It's especially odd because 3.5 optimization often has little to do with maximizing certain attributes at the cost of minimizing others. More often than not, 3.5 optimization is about gaining the ability to do a wide variety of things, because the marginal returns from investing in a particular thing keep going down the more you invest in them, at least at a certain point that's significantly before full investment (much better to stop at shock trooper rather than power attack, in other words).

Sure, you could be a mailman, but far better to just play a God wizard, doing anything and everything with your spells, and yeah, you could play an ubercharger, but at least somewhat better to stop investing when you're already killing everything trivially, and find ways to fit other tricks into your repertoire like tripping or intimidation. The term just doesn't seem to apply much, in my view, and the real min-maxing only really tends to take place with TO builds.

[Beardbarian]

You are a Cleric, you are one of the closest things to a God in the game. Show them your real power.

At 2nd level you can cast some nasty spells even in the core:

Bane, Cause Fear, Command and Doom are your debuff spells. You can't control crowds with them, but in combat they are great.

Bless, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield and Shield of Faith are your Buffs. Shield of Faith on the tank and he gains a 10% chance of not being hit.

Hide from Undead, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist and Summon Monster are GREAT for the level.

Show them the Healer base class and let them make their comments about the differences with the Cleric

[Garwain]

You are entitled to play the character you want to play. I think that's a basic condition to enjoy the game. If the group is made aware that you're not a healer, they should come up with a solution of their own (wands, potions, etc). I almost always play clerics, just because they are so versatile. Staying alive is everyone's responsibility after all, so no need to give up all your options for healing.

[Quild]

Yeah I've been trying to, but it feels like I'm being made the bad guy or the "that guy" of the group. I'm the only one who thinks differently, and they're IRL friends, so I don't want to leave the group if I can help it.

I once argued like 25 minutes against another player about how I did not wanted my ranger to scout for mobs in a very dense mist or in a very small copse.
I was indeed quite convinced that if I happened to find something in these circumstances, the something would find me as well and I may be in trouble without the rest of the group. It took me that much time to convince them to follow me staying like 50 feet behind, which allowed them to have quite a bonus against opponents listen checks and allowed them to quickly be there if needed.

I remain quite convinced that my friend was trolling me.

Anyway, I'm with you on this one. It's your character, you chose how to play it.

[Xerlith]

Have you thought about playing a Crusader instead? That way you can dish out hurt in-combat, while being able to heal efficiently (1d6+3 at 1st level? While damaging enemies? That's quite good).

If you don't feel comfortable with your character right now (the "cleric that doesn't want to heal" staple and whatnot), that may be a good choice.

A Crusader4/Cleric1/Prestige Paladin1/Ruby Knight Vindicator works with your concept flawlessly. Talk to the DM to refluff RKV for a Heironeous class, probably with swapping Hide for Balance and Shadow Hand for Iron Heart. There you go, a paladin.

That said, I think your group is just being victim to the "cleric=healbot" mindset, which is still painfully common. You are not wrong - and them telling you your way of playing the game is "badwrongfun" is plain being jerks.
Then again - that's your group and what follows is the fact that such discord may very well lead to you being kicked out if the players keep complaining. Talk to them and explain. If that doesn't help, either comply or prepare to be treated, sadly, as "That Guy".

[Segev]

Just how many spell slots are you (supposedly) "wasting" on yourself rather than healing? You said you're "being timid" and holding back spells for healing purposes, which means you're doing some. They're even saying "we only got this far because you were healing us," you said, which means you WERE healing them.

I don't know how you can both have gotten them that far AND be responsible for them falling.

However, you also said your friend is bringing in a healer. Don't take that as a rebuke; take that as him wanting a dedicated healer and being willing to play it. It sounds like a perfect solution to the problem. You're going to play primary beatstick "paladin" cleric, and he'll be dedicated heal-bot. The party gets what they want, the roles are filled, all's well. And you can even be backup healer if it's absolutely necessary, but don't have to save nearly so many spells for it.

[nedz]

Overall tho, you're just being treated as the age-old Cleric Bandaid. It's the other players' expectations that don't match the game; they'd be more in home in e.g. AD&D to be honest. Once they begin to see how the game works a bit more they should be less bullheaded about this.

Way back in the days of AD&D 1E we moved away from healbot Clerics, though at level 1 the game is different.

[Kesnit]

Yup I definitely recommended they look into items like that when they get the chance. Problem is, we started with the Sunless Citadel campaign and have had no chances of finding magic items or wands. We're currently only 2nd Level.

I said I would help how I could at low levels, and have probably been too timid to cast other spells for fear of party wipe. Typically it comes down to me as the last survivor and in hindsight was scolded for not keeping the party afloat by allowing them to go down. I didn't think a Cleric of Hieroneous would be that concerned with mid-combat healing would he?

A Cleric of Hieroneous? Maybe not. A responsible player? Yes.

The party is at LVL 1 and has not (by your own admission) had a chance to buy supplies. On the other hand, there's a party member who can help, and who has been asked repeatedly to help, and refused. You refused to help because "that's what my character would do."

At LVL 5 when you can no longer spontaneously convert healing spells, the party will need to worry about having their own healing. Of course, by LVL 5, they will have been able to buy that stuff for themselves. But they aren't at LVL 5.

A Healing Belt costs 750 gold. WBL at LVL 2 is 900.

Should you be expected to heal everyone, all the time? No. But maybe you should think about healing someone if they are about to go down.

[Eldariel]

Should you be expected to heal everyone, all the time? No. But maybe you should think about healing someone if they are about to go down.

You generally want to wait until someone goes down to heal them. There's no guarantee they're actually going down (attacks can miss, saves can be made, enemy can take a different action) which means your action is better spent trying to bring the enemy down instead of healing someone about to go down (this way there's a chance you negate their attack in the first place). If you fail and the enemy fails, you're no worse for the wear while if you succeed, you effectively saved a healing spell. Similarly, healing someone after they've gone down provides you with an extra action so it's a reasonable trade (provided it brings them up) but trading your action for potentially preventing a potential knockdown is horribly inefficient and burns more healing spells in the long run. The first priority, doubly so on low levels where you only have a handful of spells, is always to bring enemies down as fast as possible to minimize damage to the party. Otherwise you run out of spell slots fast.

[Talar]

Chalk it up different play styles. Neither one is wrong, just some times (like now) they can clash a bit. The key is open dialogue between all the players, as well as both sides willing to compromise if it comes to a head. As an example, in my current group (which has been causing some frustration, some bad rulings on the DM's part) would not allow me to play a trip build fighter, they thought it was the most broken thing ever. The character was 7th level, and I was explaining how the tripping rules worked to the DM, how they are opposed rolls and such. Apparently having two attacks a round with combat reflexes was too much for him...so he's letting me play a DMM cleric. Ya I know. This is the group that views me a bit as a munchkin for using spells that have status effects...

It's just a different play style. They still think fireball is king, and I am sitting there thinking haste...please haste the party. (yes I have pointed out haste's effectiveness, I even started throwing math out there. They just enjoy rolling the fistful of dice, they are having fun. I have fun though sometimes I need to adjust my thinking. And thats the point of the game, fun.)

[Segev]

In the end, you play your character and they play theirs. While I never recommend deliberately playing a character that harms the rest of the party, and encourage people to be clear on their roles so that needed ones are covered, it is never any player's duty to give up what they want to play to cover that role if they, themselves, don't feel the role needs covering.

Fortunately, the player who thinks the role needs covering is willing to build a PC to handle it. So there's not really a problem as long as everybody agrees it's a solution and moves on without bitterness or rancor.

[AvatarVecna]

First off, I think both you and they are in the wrong in different ways. They're too set in the "cleric=healbot" mindset, thinking clerics can't be useful for anything else. You're looking down the line and you know that a dedicated healer is a terrible option in just a few levels. They're wrong because clerics, even 1st-3rd lvl clerics, are capable of much more and much greater things than being a healbot. And you're wrong, because you're playing you 1st-2nd lvl cleric as if they've already reached the point where healing is a complete waste of time.

1st lvl characters need a healbot cleric; they don't have the resources to survive without it. For now, suck it up and deal with it; I suggest preparing buffs and expecting that at least some, and probably most, of them will be converted to cure spells. But in a few levels, when they have the resources to not need a healer, when a single wand of cure light will hold them, you can let loose. But don't play your cleric like it's in a lvl 6+ party when it's in a lvl 1+ party.

Play to your level, but don't let the other players boss you around about your character.

[The Insanity]

Ues, you are a stuborn minmaxer. No, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Beowulf DW]

As others here have said, you need to get them out of the Cleric=White Mage mindset.

That said, this is a team sport, and you need to be a team player. I've seen too many near TPKs from players doing or refusing to do something "because that's what my character would do," (that was actually said word for word to me, by the way) for me to fully support telling your friends to "deal with it." Situations change depending on your level. Just because healing is one of the more useful things you can do now, doesn't mean it'll stay that way.

Shouldn't a noble paladin be loyal to his allies and friends? Sometimes that means doing something you don't want to do, like patching them up after fighting by your side.

Allow me to propose a compromise. Rather than saving all your slots for healing, try buffing yourself and your allies in order to end encounters more quickly. They'll begin to understand what the cleric class is actually good at, and they'll need less healing. Everybody wins.

[Tvtyrant]

A Cleric of Hieroneous? Maybe not. A responsible player? Yes.

The party is at LVL 1 and has not (by your own admission) had a chance to buy supplies. On the other hand, there's a party member who can help, and who has been asked repeatedly to help, and refused. You refused to help because "that's what my character would do."

At LVL 5 when you can no longer spontaneously convert healing spells, the party will need to worry about having their own healing. Of course, by LVL 5, they will have been able to buy that stuff for themselves. But they aren't at LVL 5.

A Healing Belt costs 750 gold. WBL at LVL 2 is 900.

Should you be expected to heal everyone, all the time? No. But maybe you should think about healing someone if they are about to go down.

Disagree. Damage put runs healing by so much that you are not guaranteed to keep them out of negatives, while killing the enemy does much more to prevent them from hurting your ally. Besides which healing when an ally is still up is like dazing yourself so they can go; pointless and counterproductive.

[HaikenEdge]

Are you being stubborn? Probably a little bit, but for good reason. Are you mix/maxing? Not really.

In-combat healing at very low levels is kind of pointless; practically anybody can get dropped with one or two good hits, players and enemies alike, so it's far more efficient to just aggressively pursue the death of the enemy than to waste your turn healing your party. Every turn you're not actively trying to kill an enemy is a turn the same enemy can spend actively trying to kill you or your party; at low levels, a critical hit can basically mean death, and not just being dropped, while a dropped target, mid-combat, is more likely to be ignored for an active target.

Maybe you should buff your party more, but that really depends on the party makeup; the idea the cleric is a healbot is based on a fallacious assumption, and that's something you'll need to communicate to your peers, possibly by demonstrating that a wand of lesser vigor can pretty much do the job of a healbot, and that's an item, not a class.

[CovaDax]

It's just a different play style. They still think fireball is king, and I am sitting there thinking haste...please haste the party. (yes I have pointed out haste's effectiveness, I even started throwing math out there. They just enjoy rolling the fistful of dice, they are having fun. I have fun though sometimes I need to adjust my thinking. And thats the point of the game, fun.) Yeah when I defended myself for being called a min/maxer the DM reflected on this and said he hadn't considered that other players have fun in different ways and would work on that more. :) Most of the problems now come from the Marshal, who's really logical and automatically assumed the role of party leader (he built his char that way, but still)

[CovaDax]

First off, I think both you and they are in the wrong in different ways. They're too set in the "cleric=healbot" mindset, thinking clerics can't be useful for anything else. You're looking down the line and you know that a dedicated healer is a terrible option in just a few levels. They're wrong because clerics, even 1st-3rd lvl clerics, are capable of much more and much greater things than being a healbot. And you're wrong, because you're playing you 1st-2nd lvl cleric as if they've already reached the point where healing is a complete waste of time.

Yes I may have been too defensive about it, and it made them think I was saying I would never heal. I was just offended by the "Only Prepare Healing Spells" and the conversations in hindsight they were saying that I should have been healing min-combat. Looking back on it, it was only ever in hindsight. My Cleric was never asked in or out of character to heal at the time.

I definitely was willing to do what I could at the time and heal my comrades when the battle was over...I probably just complained about it later o.O

[Fax Celestis]

Quick question: Corva, how old are you and the rest of the party?

[CovaDax]

Have you thought about playing a Crusader instead? That way you can dish out hurt in-combat, while being able to heal efficiently (1d6+3 at 1st level? While damaging enemies? That's quite good).

If you don't feel comfortable with your character right now (the "cleric that doesn't want to heal" staple and whatnot), that may be a good choice.

A Crusader4/Cleric1/Prestige Paladin1/Ruby Knight Vindicator works with your concept flawlessly. Talk to the DM to refluff RKV for a Heironeous class, probably with swapping Hide for Balance and Shadow Hand for Iron Heart. There you go, a paladin.

That said, I think your group is just being victim to the "cleric=healbot" mindset, which is still painfully common. You are not wrong - and them telling you your way of playing the game is "badwrongfun" is plain being jerks.
Then again - that's your group and what follows is the fact that such discord may very well lead to you being kicked out if the players keep complaining. Talk to them and explain. If that doesn't help, either comply or prepare to be treated, sadly, as "That Guy".
I did like the Crusader, but not for this character concept. I was planning Cleric 5/Ord. Champopn 5/Fist of Raziel 10. He's a good Holy Knight, isn't Ruby Knight Evil? I was scolded early on for requesting too many PrC Requirement tweaks xD

[CovaDax]

Just how many spell slots are you (supposedly) "wasting" on yourself rather than healing? You said you're "being timid" and holding back spells for healing purposes, which means you're doing some. They're even saying "we only got this far because you were healing us," you said, which means you WERE healing them.

I don't know how you can both have gotten them that far AND be responsible for them falling.

However, you also said your friend is bringing in a healer. Don't take that as a rebuke; take that as him wanting a dedicated healer and being willing to play it. It sounds like a perfect solution to the problem. You're going to play primary beatstick "paladin" cleric, and he'll be dedicated heal-bot. The party gets what they want, the roles are filled, all's well. And you can even be backup healer if it's absolutely necessary, but don't have to save nearly so many spells for it.

So generally how the campaign has gone is we get into a big fight and several party members go down. Gets down to me and maybe one party member left and we fell our enemies. I do emergency healing to prevent death and drag everyone's body back to a safe place then heal everyone and rest for the night.

For a while I realized this trend and started saving my spells to convert into heals later, if I'd need them. Now I'm being told that If I had healed allies when they were low instead of down I could have prevented all the trouble.

[CovaDax]

Quick question: Corva, how old are you and the rest of the party?Youngest is 19 and oldest (me) is 23

[Fax Celestis]

Youngest is 19 and oldest (me) is 23

Sometimes these issues crop up with younger gamers who have preconceived notions about who does what. It's especially prevalent among MMO players.

Your party doesn't need DPS/tank/healer/etc. Full stop.

Quite frankly, your party is suffering because they have expectations of your character that you're not fulfilling. Granted, you made them full aware that you would not be fulfilling those expectations, so they shouldn't be counting on them...but they probably heard "cleric" and didn't hear another word you said.

[CovaDax]

Sometimes these issues crop up with younger gamers who have preconceived notions about who does what. It's especially prevalent among MMO players.

Your party doesn't need DPS/tank/healer/etc. Full stop.

Quite frankly, your party is suffering because they have expectations of your character that you're not fulfilling. Granted, you made them full aware that you would not be fulfilling those expectations, so they shouldn't be counting on them...but they probably heard "cleric" and didn't hear another word you said. Yeah it seems that way, and the Marshal has switched to a Cleric. I kind of took it as a "You're not doing your job so I will." The Problem probably won't come up again, but I feel like I'm resented for not playing the way they wanted me to.

[StoneCipher]

Well, in my opinion, being a min/maxer is not a problem unless you are vastly outperforming everyone in the party - so much that the DM enhances the difficulty to compensate for you breezing through things. This makes it entirely harder on the party and, most likely, less fun.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah it seems that way, and the Marshal has switched to a Cleric. I kind of took it as a "You're not doing your job so I will." The Problem probably won't come up again, but I feel like I'm resented for not playing the way they wanted me to.

Yeah that probably was how they meant you to take it.
They were expecting someone to keep them able to fight. (Not the same thing as expecting a Healbot. That is merely this forum being hyperbolic.)
You were expecting to awaken them with healing after the combat was over.
So they discovered they still needed to fill the "keep the team able to fight" niche that they wanted in their strategy.

Sidenote: Unlike a Healbot, the anti-removal niche is fairly optimal(since trading 1 action to gain a turn of allied action is a nice trade) and is not a full time job.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So generally how the campaign has gone is we get into a big fight and several party members go down. Gets down to me and maybe one party member left and we fell our enemies. I do emergency healing to prevent death and drag everyone's body back to a safe place then heal everyone and rest for the night.

For a while I realized this trend and started saving my spells to convert into heals later, if I'd need them. Now I'm being told that If I had healed allies when they were low instead of down I could have prevented all the trouble.Just to repeat what the crowd is saying, your friends are dead wrong. Killing enemies prevents more damage than cures heal, even at 2nd level. Again, as others have said, the exception is to bring up unconscious characters if possible (which it seems you're not doing), but healing characters low on HP is in no way more helpful than attacking. Unfortunately you may never be able to disabuse them of their AD&D/CRPG notions, and they'll keep thinking you're doin' it wrong (tm) instead of playing the Cleric well.

At later levels, consider using Close Wounds (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/close-wounds--3542/) on characters that would otherwise drop unconscious. That's an example of (situational but) effective in-combat healing.

[Aegis013]

Yeah it seems that way, and the Marshal has switched to a Cleric. I kind of took it as a "You're not doing your job so I will." The Problem probably won't come up again, but I feel like I'm resented for not playing the way they wanted me to.

You're going to get a lot of support on these forums. This community tends to think tactically and strategically. We often try to quantify the value of in-combat actions relative to other options.

But the root of the problem isn't your playstyle. I don't even think it's your friend's preconceived notions. I think it's what is bolded above.

Talk to your friends again. Ask them if that's how they feel, directly and politely. You may just be wrong about it, maybe they don't really think badly about it at all. But maybe you're right. There may be a compromise that will let you feel like you're fitting better into the group available to you. (I think I saw you mention a homebrew Paladin option, you might be able to make a "homebrew Paladin" that was actually just a Cleric with Ordained Champion abilities scattered in it and get away with it from what I'm hearing.)

Just remember you're not trying to pick a fight. I suggest you try not to get defensive if they do say they don't like your playstyle, and be careful if they get defensive about it. Generally once people get defensive, a good solution is less likely until that barrier is lowered voluntarily.

[Fax Celestis]

(I think I saw you mention a homebrew Paladin option, you might be able to make a "homebrew Paladin" that was actually just a Cleric with Ordained Champion abilities scattered in it and get away with it from what I'm hearing.)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?181496-d20r-Class-The-Paladin-v3-0

Shameless plug

[Metahuman1]

Honestly, I think you might want at next level up to add a single level of Crusader (Or maybe wait an couple of levels then add it.). And get that devoted spirit Healing Stance. And get an in-expensive animated object. Order it to stand there and be hit with your gauntlet while your in that stance out of combat to heal everyone up to Full HP, and stay in it in combat to provide a bit of healing here and there during combat.

A Wand or Two of Lessor Vigor and Cure Light Wounds, and a healing belts for the whole party, can also help keep people alive.



No need to go full Ruby Knight Vindicator, and you get more healing for them with out having to devote spells too it or take nearly as much time away form hitting stuff in the face.

Another trick, Summon something form time to time to soak up a few hits and give the rouge a flanking buddy. Cuts down on the healing you need to do cause the summons are disposable and hits they take don't need to be healed, and because it does damage and helps the rouge do more damage, which kills enemy's faster and means the whole party takes fewer hits.

And no, your Not a Min Maxer, I'd argue the rest of the part are acting like it thought since there insisting you play a certain way to accommodate there grand optimization of whole party strategy.

[Milodiah]

Personally, I've never played with a cleric who throws down his weapon and walks around the battlefield kissing boo-boos while things are still actively trying to kill him and everyone else. To me it just sounds like they're too used to the whole MMO "healers heal all the time, while all the enemies are aggroed on the damage dealer he's healing" bull****.

If I were the DM and this was happening, I'd have all the enemies do the smart thing and attack you first to stop the healing. So good job not making yourself a huge target, I say.

[Story]

Yup I definitely recommended they look into items like that when they get the chance. Problem is, we started with the Sunless Citadel campaign and have had no chances of finding magic items or wands. We're currently only 2nd Level.

What a coincidence! I just got down playing through Sunless Citadel as a cleric, my first time playing a cleric.

I did do a lot of healing, but it was still frustrating on the occasion where I didn't heal someone and the other players complained. Heck, there was one time they complained when I pointed out that it was literally impossible for me to heal since I couldn't get in touch range.

Of course I wasn't just healing, since I had a DMM Persisted Elation passively buffing everyone (we played the whole adventure as level 3), and backup damage via Knowledge Devotion + Light Crossbow. Plus I saved the day a couple times with magic, though sadly the Cleric list is far less useful for this than Wizard's list and I had trouble choosing good spells to prepare (luckily Sanctified spells are spontaneous).