Ability Damage

[martyboy74]

Does ability damage from the same source (wounding weaponry, specifically), stack with itself? If not, does it stack with other wounding weapons?

[MeklorIlavator]

Damages stack(unless otherwise noted), but penalties never do(unless specifically allowed)

[Dhavaer]

Damage of any kind doesn't stack, it accumulates. Ability damage is no different from hit point damage is this regard.

[Bears With Lasers]

Penalties of different types from different sources stack just fine, actually. Just like bonuses.

Ability damage is like hit point damage. It happens, then it happens again, you're down more [hit/ability] points than you were.

[Draz74]

So yes, Wounding weapons are sweet for how much they cost, if that's what you were wondering. (As long as you're not fighting Constructs or Undead.)

[TheOOB]

Wounding weapons can acually make TWF viable even if you don't have extra damage dice (now wounding and sneak attack, thats just nasty).

[martyboy74]

Actually, this is going to be that sort of build. Thri-Kreen sneak attack fighter with wounding weaponry and Greater Multiweapon Fighting with boots of speed, here I come!

(Also known as, "It has a Constitution? Is it immune to Constitution damage? Is it above 32? It's dead.)

[TheOOB]

I had a dervish once that worked like that, even if the con damage didn't outright kill them, the damage combined with the lower hp very possibly would.

[martyboy74]

I'm also sticking on 15 levels of sneak attack fighter, so as well as losing 16*HD hit points to constitution loss, it'll also take 256d6 points of sneak attack damage. Now I hope that I don't fight a construct/elemental/anything immune to critical hits.

[Mewtarthio]

Actually, this is going to be that sort of build. Thri-Kreen sneak attack fighter with wounding weaponry and Greater Multiweapon Fighting with boots of speed, here I come!

(Also known as, "It has a Constitution? Is it immune to Constitution damage? Is it above 32? It's dead.)

UMD the scroll of Divine Power for Fighter BAB. You know you want to...

[Rigeld2]

I'm also sticking on 15 levels of sneak attack fighter, so as well as losing 16*HD hit points to constitution loss, it'll also take 256d6 points of sneak attack damage. Now I hope that I don't fight a construct/elemental/anything immune to critical hits.
... Whats the build?
And remember, thats only if all of your attacks hit.

[martyboy74]

15th level gestalt:
Sneak Attack Fighter 15//Monk 1/War Hulk 10 (Thri-Kreen has 2 HD, and a +2 LA)
I have 16 attacks at +32, 8 at +27, and 8 at +22. I'm using +1 wounding gythkas. Each one deals 1d10+21 points of damage, plus 1 point of constitution damage. I have a Minor Image of darkness around me, so I get sneak attack (unless they make their will save). That's 8d6 points of sneak attack damage per hit. So, if hit with all my attacks, it is:
32d10+256d6+672+32 points of CON damage.

(Yes, I know that this is not conducive to reading. The character isn't finished yet.)

\/ For what? Is this build not legal for play? Or is there some competition I'm unaware of?

[Bears With Lasers]

Gestalt doesn't count.

[Rigeld2]

And Gestalt using War Hulk especially doesnt count. /shrug. Grats on playing a semi-useful melee-er.

[Zherog]

15th level gestalt:
Sneak Attack Fighter 15//Monk 1/War Hulk 10 (Thri-Kreen has 2 HD, and a +2 LA)

Because I'm not completely familiar with variant... "sneak attack fighter" = the variant that trades all the bonus feats for sneak attack dice, correct?


I have 16 attacks at +32, 8 at +27, and 8 at +22.

I don't feel like doing the math, but intuitively this seems incorrect to me.

[Rigeld2]

Because I'm not completely familiar with variant... "sneak attack fighter" = the variant that trades all the bonus feats for sneak attack dice, correct?Correct


I don't feel like doing the math, but intuitively this seems incorrect to me.
15 BAB + 10 (str from warhulk) + 4 (base str, at least) + 1 (enhancement) + 2 of something else, less if base STR is higher.

As far as it not counting, War Hulk shouldnt be allowed in Gestalt for the same reason that classes like the Mystic Theurge shouldnt.

[cupkeyk]

I have a question. Since ray of Exhaustion makes you exhausted giving a -6 penalty to STR and DEX, will the penalty stack with Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumsiness which are also penalties to STR or DEX respectively.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

As BWL said earlier: Penalties from different sources stack if they are untyped.

[cupkeyk]

Awesome, I thought I was inadvertantly cheating with Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement and Escalating Enfeeblement.

So neither Ray of Enfeeblement and Escalating Enfeeblement drop a person's STR score below 1, can Ray of Exhaustion do it?

[Zherog]

15 BAB + 10 (str from warhulk) + 4 (base str, at least) + 1 (enhancement) + 2 of something else, less if base STR is higher.

Actually, it was the number of attacks I have a hunch about being incorrect, not the attack bonus.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

So neither Ray of Enfeeblement and Escalating Enfeeblement drop a person's STR score below 1, can Ray of Exhaustion do it?

Yes, there is no exception in the spell description or the description of the exhausted condition.

[Rigeld2]

Actually, it was the number of attacks I have a hunch about being incorrect, not the attack bonus.
Hmmm...
3 base (15 BAB) 3 for MWF... yeah how are you getting 32 attacks?

[AtomicKitKat]

Don't forget that you can also use Chill Touch if they're really at that last point of Strength. I agree that Ray of Exhaustion is probably stronger though. :)

[Person_Man]

15th level gestalt:
Sneak Attack Fighter 15//Monk 1/War Hulk 10 (Thri-Kreen has 2 HD, and a +2 LA)

You'll have to double check, because I rarely use gestalt rules, but I think that you may not qualify for War Hulk after just one level of gestalt Fighter/Monk. Your BAB would be too low, and Thri-Kreen start at medium size and don't become Large until they hit 6HD, I think. Warhulk requires +5 BAB, Cleave, and Large size.

Also, Warhulk is generally considered a broken class.

Thri-Kreeen with Multi-attack are generally considered an easily breakable race.

And a gestalt PC is by definition at least twice as powerful as a normal PC.

I'm all about optimizing, but this build seems to be more of a thought experiment (How many attacks can I get in one turn, assuming my DM is crazy and lets me play this, and I'm fighting something with 100 Con that won't die after 10ish attacks?)

[SpiderBrigade]

Hmmm...
3 base (15 BAB) 3 for MWF... yeah how are you getting 32 attacks? Yah, even with flurry and Rapidstrike factored in it wouldn't be 32. Unless he's counting the extra squares he gets to attack with the Warhulk abilities as additional attacks? That ability can be interpreted as usable with every attack you may make, and at level 10 it hits all squares you threaten. That might be it.
As far as it not counting, War Hulk shouldnt be allowed in Gestalt for the same reason that classes like the Mystic Theurge shouldnt.Well, I DO agree that War Hulk should probably not be allowed in Gestalt, but how can you compare it to classes like Mystic Theurge? The general rule is that all "two classes as one" PrCs are disallowed, and War Hulk isn't one.

Edit: @ PersonMan: he's getting away with that because he's using the LA and racial HD together on one side of the gestalt progression. So the build looks more like "Fighter 15//thrikreen HD 2, thrikreen LA 2, monk 1, Warhulk 10. So after the monk level, he has 6 HD.

Of course, I'm also not seeing where this "thri-kreen become large after 6 HD" thing is coming from. Where is that? Don't see it in XPH, or MMII, or the MMII update.

[Rigeld2]

Well, I DO agree that War Hulk should probably not be allowed in Gestalt, but how can you compare it to classes like Mystic Theurge? The general rule is that all "two classes as one" PrCs are disallowed, and War Hulk isn't one.
Using War Hulk in a gestalt gives you 100% of the bonus (the plus to strength) with none of the designed penalties (no BAB advancement). By "the same reason" I meant "because it can cause balance issues" not because its a two in one class (even tho it almost is because you get effectively +2 to hit every level instead of +1).

[SpiderBrigade]

Well, I agree Rigeld2, but just for the sake of argument, couldn't one claim that, by the same logic, wizards should be disallowed, since if they are gestalted with, say, Barbarian, they get 100% of the bonus (spellcasting) with none of the designed penalties (poor BAB, low HD)?

But, yeah, any sane DM is going to look at Warhulk and think very hard about whether it is just way too good to allow.

[Rigeld2]

Well, I agree Rigeld2, but just for the sake of argument, couldn't one claim that, by the same logic, wizards should be disallowed, since if they are gestalted with, say, Barbarian, they get 100% of the bonus (spellcasting) with none of the designed penalties (poor BAB, low HD)?
No, because one of the other disadvantages in that scenario is arcane spell failure. That, and the fact that you now have 4 stats to keep high rather than 3.

WarHulk helps decrease MAD, and the only disadvantage you cant negate with Gestalt is No Time To Think, which isnt as horrible as it sounds.

[Person_Man]

Of course, I'm also not seeing where this "thri-kreen become large after 6 HD" thing is coming from. Where is that? Don't see it in XPH, or MMII, or the MMII update.

I think I read it in the MMII and/or Savage Species, which are both 3.0 (or maybe Dark Sun - man, I've been playing this game too long). But if its not in XPH, my guess is that I'm wrong and they removed the Large size progression for Thri-Kreen. If so, then the build is definitely not legal, because Warhulk requires Large size.

[SpiderBrigade]

No, because one of the other disadvantages in that scenario is arcane spell failure. That, and the fact that you now have 4 stats to keep high rather than 3.

WarHulk helps decrease MAD, and the only disadvantage you cant negate with Gestalt is No Time To Think, which isnt as horrible as it sounds.Taking levels in barbarian doesn't mean you HAVE to wear armor, though. Nor does it mean you have to pump multiple attributes. Or, for instance, pick a different combination that ALSO offsets the disadvantages of wizard, without creating MAD.

I guess my point is, the whole purpose of gestalt is that it lets you gain strengths while negating the weaknesses. So one can't IMO argue that War Hulk should be banned because you can avoid it's drawbacks. You can do that for any class, in gestalt.

It should be banned because in gestalt it's way too freaking easy to do this, and it opens the door to characters that are overpowered without even trying that hard. But that's a matter of degree, not of type. Probably semantic difference, but I think it has signifigance.

What I'm getting at is, you can't say that War Hulk can't be used in gestalt because it somehow "violates the spirit of gestalt." It shouldnt be used because it's too good in gestalt, just like Pun Pun should be banned because he's too good

[Rigeld2]

Which is what I was trying to imply. /shrug

[SpiderBrigade]

Which is what I was trying to imply. /shrugHeheh, fair enough. I was kind of in devil's advocate mode there anyway :smallbiggrin:

[martyboy74]

For those of you wondering how I'm doing this, I'm abusing Girallon's Blessing.

[Bears With Lasers]

For those of you wondering how I'm doing this, I'm abusing Girallon's Blessing.

...illegally, since the spell will overlap with itself and all you'll get is a second casting in case the first one gets dispelled. You don't get 4 extra arms from 2 castings of Girallon's Blessing, just like you don't get +2 Dodge AC from 2 castings of Haste.

[martyboy74]

...
That's annoying. I guess this build isn't quite as good then. Oh well.

[silentknight]

Yeah, thri-kreen don't increase in size with gained HD. I was creating a scout/dervish thri-kreen just a week or two ago, and there was no such info in the XPH.

Oh, multi-weapon fighting + skirmish damage + 4 wounding weapons = multi-bandage attack.