5th level gestalt Character

[Jgosse]

I have taken a break from Running games for a while and am switching to being a player again and I am trying to decide what to play.

we are playing in a 5th level game with gestalt characters.
ability ranges I can pick (10 12 14 14 16 18/10 12 12 16 16 18/10 10 14 16 16 18/8 10 16 16 16 18 /8 8 14 16 18 18)

when you pick two classes they are bound together. ranger//scout will always be ranger//scout if you want to multi class then you have to bond something else barbarian//fighter.


I am now leaning more towards:
bard//paladin
ranger//dragon shaman
paladin//dragon shaman
still thinking of
Barbarian//Druid
COW Ranger//HW paladin dragon rider.(no spells bonus feats x2) later getting a pseudodragon companion


Books you have full access to:

Players hand book 1&2

Any book in the races line

Races of stone

Races of Destiny

Races of The wild

Races of The dragon

Races of stone

Races of eberon

Any book in the complete line

Complete arcane

Complete warrior

Complete divine

Complete adventurer.

if there is another book from this line then feel free to use it.

Books you have limited use of. If you want to use something from this run it by me first.

Unearthed arcana

Dragon magazine compendium

Spell compendium

Tomb of battle (no classes)

Magic Item compendium


I have no Idea what anyone else is doing except maybe a halfling monk//barbarian or monk//warlock.

[KingAtomsk]

I'd be happy to help - I love making gestalt characters! Do you have an idea what the general power level the party is targetting is?

[Jgosse]

I'd be happy to help - I love making gestalt characters! Do you have an idea what the general power level the party is targetting is?

won't be to optimized two of the players have never made a character on there own before and the other is the halfling (who hits harder then he should) hence my thought on barbarian//monk. i don't know if there will be anyone else playing but it is possible there could be 4-6 in total.

[Rebel7284]

So are prestige classes pretty much banned?

Druid//Totemist can be fun. Lots of natural attacks while wildshaped. Better than barbarian in my opinion.

Warblade//Factotum is always popular for beating things up.

If you do end up going arcane, Wizard//Factotum or Psion//Factotum are very nice due to the INT focus.

[eggynack]

Druid//Totemist can be fun. Lots of natural attacks while wildshaped. Better than barbarian in my opinion.

Much better. Rage doesn't work with casting, and you should never have much in the way of stuff that doesn't work with casting, and most barbarian things, like trip or pounce, are things you can just naturally get through wild shape. Also, I haven't done as much research into incarnum as I should, but I suspect that the druid and totemist's dual distaste for large quantities of magic items would synergize well, and that effects like blink shirt would fill in some of the minor gaps in druid capability. It's also vaguely notable that totemists have that good reflex save that you want, while barbarians do not.

[Beardbarian]

I have no Idea what anyone else is doing except maybe a halfling monk//barbarian

You can't do it. Monk is always Lawful and Barbarian can't be Lawful. You ave to take the Chaos Monk

What about these?

Warlock//Warblade

Cleric//Incarnate

Crusader//Ardent

Drafgonfire Adept//Warlock

Factotum//Psion

[Jgosse]

prestige classe just have to be bonded to something else.

I think if I do take a casting class I would only take one so I could have some martial skill as well. I have used caster npc's before but never as my own character and I would not want to double up on it.
I have never looked at the Totemist before.

[DMVerdandi]

Seconding druid//totemist.
If you don't want your druid so strong, you also have the option of taking ACFs (Which make it weaker, but give it some pretty flavorful abilities), or choosing a spirit shaman.

With those classes you can simply buff Wis/Con and be good.
If totemist is too much, you can always move into a different class. Now, ranger is kind of redundant with a druid, so, a good alternative is to play a scout, for that nature warrior feel.

You are going to be feat hungry, but that is good. Takes away from a lot of potential power. Now, you don't have to play this too powerfully. The good thing about Tier 1 classes is you can take steps to make it actively weaker, and still end up with a cool character.

For example. What if you DIDN'T pick up natural spell. You are still strong. You still maul faces. and you are still a full caster in base form. Wild shape just becomes a sort of more variable tenser's transformation. It it a lot worse? Absolutely. Is it still viable in play? Absolutely.


Now, don't let my talk dissuade you from playing a druid in full glory. In all matters of fact, you should, as it helps your party survive. You SHOULD choose natural spell, and you shouldn't choose those ACF's unless you really feel like you are incapable of contributing to your party, just because you are hardcore. You should mix it with the totemist because they synergize awesomely , especially in wild shape.

You will be strong, and if you are a bro, your party will love you for it. Here is the trick. Choose one role. Only step out when the poop hits the fan. That way you can rely on your mates.

[Jgosse]

I forgot to mention book of toumb of battle classes are off the table as well as some other books.

Books you have full access to:

Players hand book 1&2

Any book in the races line

Races of stone

Races of Destiny

Races of The wild

Races of The dragon

Races of stone

Races of eberon

Any book in the complete line

Complete arcane

Complete warrior

Complete divine

Complete adventurer.

if there is another book from this line then feel free to use it.

Books you have limited use of. If you want to use something from this run it by me first.

Unearthed arcana

Dragon magazine compendium

Spell compendium

Tomb of battle (no classes)

Magic Item compendium
dragon magic

[DMVerdandi]

I forgot to mention book of toumb of battle classes are off the table as well as some other books.

Books you have full access to:

Players hand book 1&2

Any book in the races line

Races of stone

Races of Destiny

Races of The wild

Races of The dragon

Races of stone

Races of ebberon

Any book in the complete line

Complete arcane

Complete warrior

Complete divine

Complete adventurer.

if there is another book from this line then feel free to use it.

Books you have limited use of. If you want to use something from this run it by me first.

Unearthed arcana

Dragon magazine compendium

Spell compendium

Tomb of battle (no classes)

Magic Item compendium
dragon magic

Alright, magic of incarnum is not up there, so we can drop the totemist.

Complete books are still up there, so Druid/Scout is still up there, and even cooler, Druid//Ninja. Ooohhh. Wisdom buffing, with animal summoning, elemental spells, transforming into animals, Hidden strike, Naruto would wet his pants.

[Jgosse]

While making breakfast I was thinking maybe a support role where I can be helping all the time would be best. I am now thinking dragon shaman//paladin. or something else that will put me in a support role.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would you be able to use the OA version of Samurai (http://dndtools.eu/classes/oriental-adventures--96/samurai/) (and just not take the Iaijutsu Focus skill) since the CW Samurai is so terrible?

Would you be able to use things from other books, such as Dungeonscape or Frostburn?

Are you able to buy off a level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) from UA? Can you take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) from UA?

I'd recommend a good ol' Sorcerer//Dungeoncrasher (OA Samurai if possible, Fighter othewise). If you're unable to use Dungeoncrasher at all, then go Sorcerer//OA Samurai. If you can't use OA Samurai or Dungeoncrasher, then still go Sorcerer//Fighter. If using Fighter get the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (reflavored to fit a samurai theme) if possible, along with free class features (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). I'd go Sorcerer//Dungeoncrasher 6 if you can use it, otherwise Sorcerer//Whatever 4 and then Spellsword//Battle Dancer 1 and then Abjurant Champion//something 5. Get access to (Greater) Luminous Armor if possible from BoED, it's the only armor spell that benefits from Abjurant Champion, otherwise get (Greater) Mage Armor house ruled to work with it since it was clearly intended to work this way. Battle Dancer is in Dragon Compendium, it's like Monk but it adds your Cha bonus to your AC instead of Wis.

Your Daisho from OA Samurai can be a different weapon other than the traditional katana and wakizashi, make it an Elvencraft Composite Longbow (RotW) which functions as both a quarterstaff and a longbow, it would need to be masterwork three times and you would want three wand chambers from Dungeonscape in it if possible. Note that the entire weapon is completely free due to your Daisho class feature, otherwise it would normally cost 1600 gp plus 100 gp per Str bonus on the composite bow. If that's not possible, then just get a quarterstaff that's masterwork twice. The method of upgrading your Daisho works the same way as upgrading an Ancestral Relic, so you can make it a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4). This is the entire reason for using OA Samurai in the first place, plus the base skill points are nice, if you can get Ancestral Relic (http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/ancestral-relic--70/) from BoED (the max magical value is 1/2 the DMG Table 5-1 Wealth By Level values on page 135) then you can just use Fighter instead of OA Samurai.

Best-case scenario: OA Samurai with Dungeoncrasher//Sorcerer 6/ Battle Dancer//Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion//Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue)? (UA) 5// Sacred Exoricist//Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) (Urban (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er)) Ranger 8

Worst-case: Fighter//Sorcerer 4/ Battle Dancer or Monk//Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion//(Feat) Rogue 5/ Sacred Exorcist//(Wildshape) Ranger 8. If Feat Rogue and Wildshape Ranger aren't available just use the PHB versions of the classes. If unable to use Battle Dancer, just get Monk and take Ascetic Mage from CV at 6th.

You'll want Power Attack, Minor Shapeshift (CM), Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush + Knock-Back in Races of Stone if available (only usable when large size), Arcane Strike (CW), Defensive Sweep (PH2), and possibly Melee Weapon Mastery (PH2) if using Fighter. Extend Spell and Persistent Spell are also highly recommended. If you can make your character an Illumian from Races of Destiny get the Naenhoon runeword and use your Sacred Exorcist turn undead ability to add Persistent Spell to two of your buffs each day, preferably Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon and/or Bite of the Werebear in SC and/or Greater/Superior (SC) Invisibility and/or Shapechange. You'll probably need Arcane Preparation to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor if it's available, otherwise put it on your Ancestral Relic, or just stick to (Greater) Mage Armor if necessary. You want to throw out an extremely efficient crowd control (Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Freezing Fog (SC), etc.), possibly buff yourself, and move into position, then full attack as often as possible, maybe casting another crowd control or efficient ranged attack (Orb of Acid/Fire, SC) if necessary. If you have Dungeoncrasher then absolutely get Melf's Unicorn Arrow from PH2, and keep in mind that it doesn't specify what direction that attack comes from, so make it appear above the targets and drive them into the ground to dungeoncrash them. Obligatory Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook).

[KingAtomsk]

I've never understood DMs banning Tome of Battle - it's a very well-balanced book with mechanics that don't interfere with other parts of gameplay, and provides a much-needed increase in options and power for martial classes. All part of the "Fighters can't have nice things" mindsight, I guess.

Whenever building a character, focusing on making the build as SAD (single-ability dependent) as possible is always important, but it is especially relevant for making gestalt characters for the sake of coherence and reducing the feat tax. For this reason, I suggest building character concepts around classes which synergize well with eachother in terms of ability scores. If you're interested in arcane casting, this means focusing on either Int or Cha, both of which are very easy to make SAD (Charisma probably being the easiest of all 6 ability scores). I highly recommend reviewing and frequently referring to Person_Man's famous X stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) guide, which will help greatly in selecting feats and classes to centralize on a concept and ability score.

Another fairly commonly overlooked limitation for building gestalt characters is your action economy - you could have all the cool abilities of two independently awesome classes, but if one of them needs all your standard actions to attack and the other needs all your standard actions to cast spells, you're not going to be able to do everything.

The "fusing" limitation your DM is enforcing is a bit restrictive when it comes to trying to apply prestige classes, but I'll do my best to come up with some ideas that work

Int-Based Arcane Casting
Gish
Duskblade 3//Swashbuckler 3
Using this as a starting point gets you arcane channelling which is the first good break point for Duskblade and Insightful Strike (Int to damage) which is the typical breakpoint for Swashbuckler. You also get Combat Casting as a bonus feat which means if you can work out Prestige classes according to your DM's limitations, you can easily qualify for the Abjurant Champion PrC, which is great for gish builds. You could also just continue to level Duskblade and Swashbuckler - Swashbuckler won't give you fantastic benefits beyond 3rd level but at Duskblade 13 you get the phenomenal Full Channeling ability.
This could make excellent use of the feat Arcane Strike from Complete Warrior, to burn some of your many spells/day to increase your damage output.

Arcane Rogue
Spellthief with a high skill-rank class like Rogue or Scout
Spellthief//Rogue would get the Sneak Attack progression of the Rogue with the spell-stealing abilities of the Spellthief with enough skill points to toss around to also make a great skillmonkey for the party. Alternatively, Scout alongside Spellthief gets you two different kinds of precision damage.

Pure Caster
Wizard//Depends on your focus
This is hard to get wrong. Wizard is the powerhouse of Int-based casting, though you could use Wu Jen for the flavor if you choose. The important thing is pick a focus (Blasting, Battlefield Control, Utility, etc.) and choose the other side of the build in order to maximize your effectiveness at that role. For instance, a blaster archetype wizard (probably specializing in evocation) would benefit from classes which improve ranged attacking ability, while a battlefield controller would benefit from mobility and awareness.

Cha-Based
I won't get too heavily into any specific builds here, but some suggestions on what to explore:
Sorcerer - the standard PHB Cha-based arcane caster. Lots of interesting alternative class features exist. If you have access to them, it's fun and easy to craft a sorcerer to your playstyle. Sorcerers can make good gishes in gestalt.
Sha'ir - it's in Dragon Compendium, so run it by your DM as he requested. This is a Cha-based prepared caster that is just dripping with flavor. You get the full Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, and as an added benefit you can cast select divine spells! Sha'ir make great utility mages with their incredible diversity.
Favored Soul - A divine caster, but with Charisma dependence for bonus spells (save DCs are still wisdom-dependent). With Weapon Focus as a bonus feat or the ACF to instead grant temporary HP whenever you cast a spell on yourself or an ally, Favored Souls can make great melee combatants, using their limited spells/day to buff themselves. In gestalt, this could go well alongside a spell-lessPaladin (nevermind, this ACF is from Complete Champion) to get your Charisma bonus to saves and other assorted benefits.

Hope this helps!

-KingAtomsk

[KingAtomsk]

While making breakfast I was thinking maybe a support role where I can be helping all the time would be best. I am now thinking dragon shaman//paladin. or something else that will put me in a support role.

This screams Sha'ir//Dragon Shaman to me. Sha'ir makes a fantastic utility caster since you can pick your spells pretty much on the fly, so you can fetch spells as needed and buff your party with your draconic auras

[Renen]

For a PbP game in joining I made a party buffer.

Sha'Ir/Warweaver//Bard/Warchanter 5/Seeker of the song 2

Buffing out the wazoo

Sha'ir and war weaver let you apply multiple buffs on whole party in one round.
Bard side allows you to sing three songs at once (who cares about logic)
Your party has NEVER been so buffed :D

Oh, throw in Legacy Champion to warweaver side, if you REALLY wanna break the game

[DMVerdandi]

Also agreeing with Sha'ir.
Might not be on the list, but it's good enough to ask for.

[KingAtomsk]

Sha'ir could also be a good match with Bard, if you include the Melodic Casting feat to let you cast while singing. Depending on the optimization level you're aiming for, you could get some Sublime Chord and Seeker of the Song in there as well for a crazy high caster level and the ability to sing two songs at once.

[Jgosse]

I am trying not to be to optimized so the others can shine. as of right now I am thinking of bard//paladin , ranger//dragon shaman, or paladin//dragon shaman. I would probably take Ranger or paladin ACF that ditch spell casting for extra feats.