smaller than fine

[bjoern]

A creature of fine size is 6" or less and 1/8 of a pound, so about like a coffee mug. It gets +8AC and +16 vs special attacks(bull rush, etc)

What about something the size of a pea, fly, coin, or ring? They are significantly smaller than a coffee mug.

Maybe just go with the pattern of size modifiers and double the bonuses again (+16/+32)?

But a murder hobo with a retarded strength bonus will still hit it. Can a guy charge a fly? Hit it with an axe? If the item is sitting on the ground or against something solid I can see smashing it this way. But a fly flying in the air.....would practically be impervious to physical attack I would think.

[Fax Celestis]

Fine represents creatures of the size you indicated or smaller. However, creatures much smaller than that are probably better treated as effects than creatures, considering their HP and physical ability scores are all basically going to be 1.

[The Viscount]

Almost every creature of fine size is in a swarm, so generalizations get a bit weird.

There are fine creatures as small as mosquitoes, so I see no point in making another category, as fine is mentioned to go all the way down (unless there's a Fine- size category in Dragon somewhere).

As for the attacking bit, the fine swarms are immune to weapon damage for that very reason (though hairy spider is confusingly still vulnerable).

[bjoern]

Here's an example:

Guy A throws a small coin into the air.

Guy B trays to hit it with an arrow/fist/sword
Etc

[Fax Celestis]

Here's an example:

Guy A throws a small coin into the air.

Guy B trays to hit it with an arrow/fist/sword
Etc

The coin is a Fine object, AC 18 (10 + size modifier). That's it.

[bjoern]

The coin is a Fine object, AC 18 (10 + size modifier). That's it.

Shouldn't it take into account that its moving?

I get that its kind of reaching the limits of the rules making sense but RAW, striking a 6" cube of glass sitting on a table is just as easy as striking a single grain of sand in a gust of wind from 100' away.

Maybe incorporate spot to even allow the attack, some form of concealment or cover maybe?

[Fax Celestis]

Why? Creatures are constantly moving and that doesn't affect their AC (aside from their Dex to AC (which the object has none) and their dodge bonus (which again it has none as it is not trying to actively dodge)).

[Chronos]

Why would it be hard to hit a fly-sized object with a weapon? You've used a flyswatter, haven't you? Swarms are immune to weapons not because the individual creatures are hard to hit, but because the handful of creatures you can hit with each swing are a negligible proportion of the swarm's population.

[bjoern]

Why would it be hard to hit a fly-sized object with a weapon? You've used a flyswatter, haven't you? Swarms are immune to weapons not because the individual creatures are hard to hit, but because the handful of creatures you can hit with each swing are a negligible proportion of the swarm's population.

Yes, but I've never killed a fly that was air born, always wait until it lands so you can kill it. If you swing at it while in the air, the rush of air ahead of it just pushes it aside. Plus, a flyswatter is a special tool. Try punching a fly or hitting it with a bat.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, but I've never killed a fly that was air born, always wait until it lands so you can kill it. If you swing at it while in the air, the rush of air ahead of it just pushes it aside. Plus, a flyswatter is a special tool. Try punching a fly or hitting it with a bat.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NSWwZ42XE

[bjoern]

OK fair enough. So with a touch attack you could grab it. Once grabbed you could crush it. For simplicity sake, just the way it is now is probably the best.
Trying to make sense of D&D physics is a slippery slope.

[Frostthehero]

it is worth noting that the example given for a fine creature is a fly.

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that dexterity mod is the way that the game keeps track of enemies that move around in difficult to hit ways. That, and not size modifier, is how you should model the difficulty of hitting flies in motion.