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View Full Version : CharOpt Mythbusters needed: "Wu Jen TK" build



SpiderBrigade
2007-03-05, 07:09 PM
So, I was looking through the WotC boards thread on Tome of Battle builds (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683941), when I came across one particular build. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10285960&postcount=493) Now, looking it over, it seems to me that there is NO WAY that the build can do what the creator suggests it can. Oddly, while the rest of that thread is full of lively discussion on what is/is not possible by the RAW, this particular build is not commented upon.

So here's my requests for the optimizing/rules gurus here at GitP:

Firstly, back me up that the stated claim of "21 greatsword doing a full attack Telekinetic attack each at a BAB of 25" is bogus.

But, secondly: why would the creator of the build THINK he could do this? What rules is he twisting (because to me, it seems INSTANTLY apparent that the build doesn't work, at all, but no one in that thread had anything to say about it...)?

And thirdly: what could this build actually accomplish, as written (and without the aforementioned rules-twisting)? Or is it just useless?

For quick reference, here is the build: Race Human

1 Wu jen Quicken Spell, Iron Will, Still Spell
2 Wu jen
3 Wu jen Practiced Spellcaster
4 Wu jen
5 Wu jen
6 Wu jen Arcane Thesis - Telekinesis
7 Incanatrix Silent Spell
8 Incanatrix - class feature of Cooperative metamagic
9 Incanatrix - class feature of metamagic effect, Innate Spell
10 Incanatrix Chain Spell
11 Incanatrix - class feature of metamagic spell trigger
12 Incanatrix - class feature of seize concentration, Craft Wand
13 Incanatrix - class feature of instant metamagic 1/day, Enlarge Spell
14 Incanatrix - class feature of snatch spell
15 Incanatrix - class feature of instant metamagic 2/day, Craft Staff
16 Incanatrix - class feature of improved metamagic, Extend Spell
17 Incanatrix
18 MotUH Martial Study Iron Heart Surge
19 MotUH
20 MotUH

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 07:20 PM
I will have to review the details of the build fully, but yes its possibly to wield 20 weapons (note I said 20 not 21, chain caps at 20) with master of the unseen hand due to chain spell telekinesis. You can do more weapons than 20 but you have to be doing multiple concentrations of telekinesis (extraordinary concentration gets you two more, sumerous hum, familiar concentration, and one or two more tricks)

Rigeld2
2007-03-05, 07:23 PM
Not sure where he gets 21 Greatswords, but he can easily do 15 at will.

Forgot about chain. That gets 20. The better question is... why wouldnt he be able to?

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-05, 07:32 PM
He can violently fling 20. He's claiming to use the abilities of the Master of the Unseen Hand to FULL ATTACK with 20.

@Ramza: the way I read that class, it still takes a standard action to use the Combat Maneuver variety of Telekinesis, which is what you use for the Telekinetic Wielder attack. So you could only do it with one weapon/round. Just because your telekinesis can AFFECT that many greatswords doesn't let you attack with all of them. Unless I'm missing something?

The other thing is, how does he put Innate Spell on telekinesis at level 7? You have to have a free slot 8 levels higher than the spell. Telekinesis is a level 5 spell.

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 07:32 PM
Note that the text of MotU full attack bab with itterative attacks doesn't capt at 20 via RAW, thus a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5/Master of the Unseen Hand 4/Red Wizard 5/X 1 can have a caster level of 40 and make 8 attacks per weapon. (Of course as a DM I will houserule the BAB iterative attacks will cap 20)*20 weapons* how many telekinesis you got going.

Most MotU builds have 1 lvl of archmage so you can also have arcane reach. You then chain greater magic weapon, greater mighty wallop, on some wood staffs (though you have some cold iron/adamatine weapons for DR) and have your druid/cleric friend chain spikes (the improved version of brambles which is an improved version of Shillelagh). Note spikes and brambles most recent version (there was a revision of the two spells) in the spell compedium.

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 07:34 PM
Innate Spell also has a PGTF version that makes it a spell like ability usable 2 or 3 times per day but you sacrifice a slot equal to that level (it is similar to the archmage ability but slightly different)

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-05, 07:37 PM
Ramza, again, why does the Chain metamagic let him get around the fact that attacking with the weapon takes a standard action?

Also, the text of Full Attack Telekinesis does say "Just as with nontelekinetic attacks, the master of the unseen hand gains an additional attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus above +1," which you're right, doesn't SAY it caps at 4 attacks. But it does say it's just like regular attacks, which do cap.

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 07:37 PM
Note this is the original "big thread" on the subject (I don't know if its the original build though)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=409126

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-05, 07:43 PM
I will get to reading that, thank you. To be perfectly honest, I'm mainly asking about this because I'd really like for that build to work...but it seems way too good to be true. SO I have to Devil's-Advocate it as hard as I can :smallbiggrin:

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 07:43 PM
Also, the text of Full Attack Telekinesis does say "Just as with nontelekinetic attacks, the master of the unseen hand gains an additional attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus above +1," which you're right, doesn't SAY it caps at 4 attacks. But it does say it's just like regular attacks, which do cap.

Epic BAB is based off character level, not total bab



Epic Attack Bonus

Similarly, the characterís base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#tableEpicSaveandEpicAttackBonuses). Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.



Note this is by RAW, it should be houseruled.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-05, 07:45 PM
But his CL can't exceed HD (or class levels, or some such) with practiced spellcaster. Caps at 21, so he can throw in a lot of nasty stuff even then. BAB 21 + spellcasting modifier.

Actually, due to the order in which he's applying things, it does seem to be legal 0.o. NVM, he actually has CL 25.

"Practiced Spellcaster (from Complete Divine): When determining caster level for one of your spellcasting classes, you can add a bonus of up to +4. The amount of the bonus depends on the number of nonspellcasting class levels you have; you can add +1 for each nonspellcasting class level up to the limit of +4."


Sec, how is he getting a full attack with all those weapons? And what is that version of incantrix he's using? Not the excerpt... damn.
"And thanks to the Innate Spell feat, you can use it as a purely mental standard action, as often as you want, since it is an at-will spell-like ability"

K. He can't metamagic the innate spell. What he can do, is throw 300 arrows at you as a 9th level spell. Pretty sure he can't metamagic the innate spell, but then, he could just "Chain spell-like ability", etc. Then he could have 50 rounds/casting/concentration as a spell like ability, with floating 20 Huge Greatswords around. Not sure if he can actually use them to attack...

He can do the thing, innate spell gives an at will spell-like ability. You can metamagic (or, sorta, MM feats) those.

Ahh, master of the unseen hand. With the chain spell, he's effectively using the same spell many times, so can't he do combat manuvers, etc with all of them? No? At the very least, he can whip 300 greatswords at you as a standard action, then pick them up and throw them at you again. And again. And again. Be pierced by the pain of 600D6!

Right then. Would make a sensible house rule, but it's hard to tell according to RAW.

Lesee...."can make a single attack with an unattended weapon" Bolded.

It seems he's holding concentration on one spell, and would seem to be able to use all the weapons, as they are all part of those many spells. He isn't getting extra standard actions, he's just using the one to maintain concentration with telekenesis.

Aha! The weilding of weapons requires concentration on the combat manuver type, so according to chain spell, he can focus on the combat manuver, and due to the chained, can affect all the weapons.

That's... horrific.

Rigeld2
2007-03-05, 07:45 PM
Ramza, again, why does the Chain metamagic let him get around the fact that attacking with the weapon takes a standard action?
It specifically says 'when you are wielding a weapon telekinetically, you may make a full attack with that weapon'. For each weapon i am wielding telekinetically, i get to make a full attack. Its perfectly RAW. Is it what they intended? Probably not, but thats their fault for not being creative enough to understand what their wording allowed.

Arguement from the "original" Jean Grey thread

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 07:52 PM
Okay for the standard action thing, here is the reasoning. It doesn't mention anywhere you can do this one per round in the MotU description. Instead it mentions as long as you maintain concentration of the spell (which is a standard action normally, but there are ways around it such as the options mentioned above). Note in the description of telekinesis it says you can use Combat Manuever once per round, but that is for that specific spell/target. Chain spell allows you to do the combat manuever up to 20 different targets (but not the same target), and Telekinetic Wielder/Full Attack Telekinesis allow you to make the targets of telekinesis the weapons and then use those weapons for attacks, bullrushes, disarm, etc.

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 07:55 PM
But his CL can't exceed HD (or class levels, or some such) with practiced spellcaster. Caps at 21, so he can throw in a lot of nasty stuff even then. BAB 21 + spellcasting modifier.

Actually, due to the order in which he's applying things, it does seem to be legal 0.o. NVM, he actually has CL 25.

It is legal for the MotU Caster level boost isn't a normal caster level increase with no spells increase (such as Hierophant), instead its a boost, and its a boost only for the spell telekinesis.

Douglas
2007-03-05, 07:58 PM
The Telekinetic Wielder class feature of MotUH says "by maintaining concentration on the combat maneuver version of Telekinesis"... Maintaining concentration takes a single standard action per spell regardless of how many targets it has, so one standard action will suffice for all 21 weapons. Yes, 21, Chain Spell gives you up to 20 additional targets. As for the number of attacks capping at 4 per weapon from BAB, that rule was in the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook and I couldn't find it in the 3.5 SRD when I looked for it a while ago.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-05, 08:00 PM
Ok, one thing is that the build I quoted doesn't have any way around the "maintaining concentration" problem. There are lots of ways to do it, that build doesnt.

Also, Telekinetic Wielder says "by maintaining concentration...a MothUH can make a single attack with an unattended weapon or one he is holding." It specifically doesn't say "with any weapon targeted by his telekinesis spell," it says "a single attack with [a] weapon."

Full Attack Telekinesis says he can make full attacks with weapons he wields telekinetically...which according to that ability, is one weapon.

Edit: Douglas, see above. He can maintain concentration, but the ability doesn't say he can attack with all weapons his telekinesis affects. It says one weapon.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-05, 08:07 PM
True. I doubt it really counts as 20 usages of the same spell, as that's not what telekenesis says.

Eat 30d6 per your AC is less than 20 above 25+my int modifier infidel! And 30d6 anyway!

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 08:24 PM
I will get to reading that, thank you. To be perfectly honest, I'm mainly asking about this because I'd <i>really like</i> for that build to work...but it seems way too good to be true. SO I have to Devil's-Advocate it as hard as I can

Note in normal play it is hard to pull off this combo until near endgame levels. (In Gestalt this changes). This is due to the fact you can't enter MotU until 10th lvl, you don't get the attack telekinesis till MotU 2, and full attack till MotU 3. MotU doesn't progress spell knowledge, thus those levels are loss.

Thus a wizard won't be able to full attack till lvl 12.

To get a chain spell in there you need to apply the chain spell feat to telekinesis. A normal chain spell telekinesis is an 8th lvl slot. Arcane Thesis can lower it to a 7th lvl slow, metamagic school/practical metamagic can make it a 6th lvl slot, if your DM also allows Dragon easy metamagic can make it a 5th lvl slot, but almost no DM allows all this material.

Of course you can always get an chain metamagic rod but wbl won't allow you to get that till 18th lvl.

Thus most likely you won't be doing a chain full attack telekinesis till at least lvl 14 (arcane thesis/metamagic school lets say). Remember you lose 4 spell levels thus you lose 9th lvl spells till epic.

Now lets say you got 20 weapons going at once. How are you going to afford to enchant 20 weapons? It is expensive, so thus most likely they will just be staffs with spikes cast on them.

Here is your best damage.
40 Caster Level (Red Wizard build) thus 8 attacks
8 Attack*20 Weapons*Weapon Damage
1d6 with 4 sizes increases (Greater Mighty Wallop) =4d6
+5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+10 (Spikes)
=29 Average Damage

8*20*29=4640 Average Damage. Assuming all the attacks hit (which they won't)

Now lets say you don't have Races of the Dragon, thus no Greater Mighty Wallop and only 1d6 weapon damage. Lets also say your enemy is a balor and thus has DR 15/cold iron and good. Now your weapon damage is 3.5+5+10-15 and thus only 3.5 damage gets through DR. 3.5*8*20=560 DamageAssuming all the attacks hit (which they won't)

In other words this build gets a lot better the more supplements you can add. But if you only have limited supplements it isn’t as cool as it can be. I ain’t going to calculate the chance of how many attack will hit at AC 35. (Caster Level 40, assuming 34 Int thus +12)

Arbitrarity
2007-03-05, 08:30 PM
Note in normal play it is hard to pull off this combo until near endgame levels. (In Gestalt this changes). This is due to the fact you can't enter MotU until 10th lvl, you don't get the attack telekinesis till MotU 2, and full attack till MotU 3. MotU doesn't progress spell knowledge, thus those levels are loss. Thus a wizard won't be able to full attack till lvl 12. To get a chain spell in there you need to apply the chain spell feat to telekinesis. A normal chain spell telekinesis is an 8th lvl slot. Arcane Thesis can lower it to a 7th lvl slow, metamagic school/practical metamagic can make it a 6th lvl slot, if your DM also allows Dragon easy metamagic can make it a 5th lvl slot, but almost no DM allows all this material. Of course you can always get an chain metamagic rod but wbl won't allow you to get that till 18th lvl. Thus most likely you won't be doing a chain full attack telekinesis till at least lvl 14 (arcane thesis/metamagic school lets say). Remember you lose 4 spell levels thus you lose 9th lvl spells till epic. Now lets say you got 20 weapons going at once. How are you going to afford to enchant 20 weapons? It is expensive, so thus most likely they will just be staffs with spikes cast on them. Here is your best damage. 40 Caster Level (Red Wizard build) thus 8 attacks 8 Attack*20 Weapons*Weapon Damage 1d6 with 4 sizes increases (Greater Mighty Wallop) =4d6 +5 (Greater Magic Weapon) +10 (Spikes) =29 Average Damage 8*20*29=4640 Average Damage. Assuming all the attacks hit (which they won't) Now lets say you don't have Races of the Dragon, thus no Greater Mighty Wallop and only 1d6 weapon damage. Lets also say your enemy is a balor and thus has DR 15/cold iron and good. Now your weapon damage is 3.5+5+10 and thus only 3.5 damage gets through DR. 3.5*8*20=560 DamageAssuming all the attacks hit (which they won't) In other words this build gets a lot better the more supplements you can add. But if you only have limited supplements it isn’t as cool as it can be. I ain’t going to calculate the chance of how many attack will hit at AC 35. (Caster Level 40, assuming 34 Int thus +12)


Ok. He has. Innate Spell. This gives him an Sp telekenesis (in this case) at will.

He then can use chain spell-like ability. Voila.

And you can still eat greatswords.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-05, 08:35 PM
Arbitrary, that goes back to the question, how is it possible to have Innate Spell: Telekinesis, which has been tabled already. Answer: he can't, unless he uses the PGtF one, which is only 3/day, not "at will."

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 08:42 PM
Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you, all of which must be within 30 feet of the primary target, and none of which can be affected more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.

If the chained spell deals damage, the secondary targets each take half as much damage as the primary target (rounded down) and can attempt Reflex saving throws for half damage (whether the spell allows the original target a save or not). For spells that don't deal damage, the save DCs against arcing effects are reduced by 4. For example, if a 10th-level wizard normally casts cause fear at DC 14, a chained cause fear could target a goblin chieftain at DC 14 and up to ten of his nearby guards at DC 10.

A chained spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Chain_Spell,CAr


Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush), disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm), grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) (including pin), or trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip). Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they donít provoke attacks of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm), you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard)) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesnít allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance) applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Note with the combat manuever part of telekinesis you have only one target (unlike the violent thrust part of telekinesis). That once per round is being applied to the one target part of telekinesis (the text is added for you maintain concentration on the spell and thus lasts as long as the concentration or rounds/level which every comes first).

Chain spell metamagic modifes the text of the spell so that it affects multiple targets. It affects the secondary targets as normal (except the damage and increase dc which don't apply in our case). Thus a chain telekinesis can do up 20 bull rushes, grapples, trips, etc or a combination of the number.

Now Telekinetic Wielder/Full Attack Telekinesis modifes the target your target is now the weapon you wield, and you use that weapon then to perform the attack, bullrush, trip, etc.

Chain Spell allows you to use multiple weapons. Thus with Telekinetic Wielder and Chain you can have up to 20 weapons making one attack each. With Full Attack Telekinesis it goes up to 20 weapons and your bab's iterative attacks.

Ramza00
2007-03-05, 08:44 PM
Arbitrary, that goes back to the question, how is it possible to have Innate Spell: Telekinesis, which has been tabled already. Answer: he can't, unless he uses the PGtF one, which is only 3/day, not "at will."
You are correct the PGtF version isn't at will, thus that part is in error.

NEO|Phyte
2007-03-05, 08:49 PM
As for the number of attacks capping at 4 per weapon from BAB, that rule was in the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook and I couldn't find it in the 3.5 SRD when I looked for it a while ago.
Its not in the SRD. Open your DMG to page 207, and read the Behind the Curtain. You will find that regardless of how high your BAB is, you cannot get more than four attacks from it.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-05, 08:50 PM
Ah. Sorry, been misreading it. Found the description.

However, he can still use a chain-spelled telekenesis (insert all other metamagic here) as a 6th level slot, due to his use of arcane thesis. (:()

Not bad nonetheless...

And you appear to have a supporter for the full attacks with multiple weapons.

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-05, 09:51 PM
Ok. He has. Innate Spell. This gives him an Sp telekenesis (in this case) at will.

He then can use chain spell-like ability. Voila.

And you can still eat greatswords.

The problem is, Innate Spell requires that you permanently devote a spell slot 8 levels higher than the spell you'd like to use. Given that Telekinesis is a 5th-level spell...Seems like you can't do that until well into Epic-levels.

Zherog
2007-03-06, 08:11 AM
There's several sources for the Innate Spell feat. Do all of them function the same way?

3.0 sources: FRCS, Tome and Blood
3.5 sources: Complete Arcane, Player's Guide to Faerun

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-06, 10:45 AM
PGTF I believe requires a slot of the same level, but is only 3/day. CArc is at will, but at the aforementioned heavy cost. I will check Tome and Blood, FRCS now.

Edit: TaB, FRCS are both the 8-levels-higher-slot/at will version. Only PGTF is the 3/day.
HOWEVER, that feat counts as metamagic, which potentially opens up some Arcane Thesis abuse...

Ramza00
2007-03-06, 11:51 AM
Any more questions? Is the only issue now the innane spell feat?

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-06, 12:03 PM
Well, I'm honestly still not satisfied on the whole "Telekinetic Wielder" issue, but I don't think it can be fully proven one way or another, RAW. You've got quotes that support either side.

Personally I thnk the "only one weapon" interpretation wins, because the idea that Telekinetic Wielder applies to every weapon targeted is an assumption without direct support. It's a fairly reasonable assumption, but it isn't backed up by a direct quote. Again, the ability doesn't say "you may attack with any weapon targeted by your telekinesis spell." It says that by concentrating on your telekinesis, you may use it to attack with a weapon.

But I wouldn't go so far as to say "this is the correct interpretation, period." It's just the one I would use. As I say, I don't think it's provable, barring some official clarification of the ability.