Precocious Apprentice and PrCs

[Extra Anchovies]

My question is: Does the Precocious Apprentice feat (Complete Arcane) allow entry into prestige classes that require "ability to cast second-level spells", as long as you meet the other requirements? I've assumed for a while that it does (and thus a Mystic Theurge would only need to go Wizard 1/Cleric 3 before qualifying), but am not sure. Rules text for the feat specifies that "you gain an extra second-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell". Since you gain a 2nd-level spell slot, that (sort of) implies that your character counts as having the "ability to cast 2nd-level spells". However, later in the rules text it says "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot", which makes it seem like they intended for it to not allow characters to meet an "ability to cast 2nd-level spells" requirement. Is there an official WotC ruling on this? If not, what do you all think?

[Fax Celestis]

Nothing official.

I tend to deny it personally just because the kinds of cases where it's actually used for that are generally the kinds of cases where people are trying their hardest to break the game. I don't mind some shenanigans at my table, but my first rule is "You breaka mah gaem, I breaka yo faec".

[malonkey1]

There was an opinion given in an FAQ:


If a 1st-level character takes the Precocious Apprentice feat, can he cast 2nd-level spells for the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class or meeting the prerequisites of a feat?

In the Sage’s opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.

But that's an opinion, given in FAQ, and therefore not official. I say prestige away. It's honestly my favorite trick for double-nines, so a Warmage/Healer Theurge becomes slightly more workable, becoming what amounts to a tier-4 single class when you take the Dynamic Priest feat from Dragonlance for Cha-based Divine, or find a way to change your Warmage casting to Wis-based, plus Exalted spells from BoED. It's not a magical fix, but it's pretty good, I guess.

[Chronos]

Personally, I agree with the argument in the OP, and therefore would say that it's not allowed. On the other hand, though, there are other early-entry tricks which do seem to work, some of them even better than Precocious Apprentice. For instance, an illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau can qualify for mystic theurge after a total of only three base class levels (two of one and one of the other), and can choose which of the two to put more levels into.

A separate but related question is whether early-entry tricks cause any balance issues. To that, I would say that it depends on the table, and what else you're allowing. In the long run, it won't make much difference when you get into Mystic Theurge, for instance, because you're eventually going to run out of levels to take in it, and are going to have to level just one class at a time after that. On the other hand, if one were to introduce another theurge-like class, or houserule more levels onto Mystic Theurge, then it becomes more relevant.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's a pretty common early entry trick. There's pages upon pages of discussion which basically amount to a lot of "does not" "does too" but rules-wise you can really go either way.
Ask your DM. Personally i allow or disallow it based on the general power level of a campaign when i DM.

[Extra Anchovies]

Thanks for the input. I've got a lot of ideas floating around for build that are primarily one class, but that dip one level into wizard and have a field day with the dual-casting PrCs. Is there any sort of equivalent feat for divine spellcasters (having both in existence wouldn't be too broken, because Precocious Apprentice can only be taken at character level 1st)?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Any class can do early entry with Illumian + Krau Sigil. Any class with a first level spell with the [Cold] descriptor can do the same with Snowcasting. Bards can do it with Talfirian Song.
Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell and Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell are also used in some early entry tricks.

[toapat]

because you're eventually going to run out of levels to take in it, and are going to have to level just one class at a time after that.

you prestige into Legacy Champion if you go Mystic Theurge.

still not that great of a fast entry though.

[Extra Anchovies]

Any class can do early entry with Illumian + Krau Sigil. Any class with a first level spell with the [Cold] descriptor can do the same with Snowcasting. Bards can do it with Talfirian Song.
Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell and Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell are also used in some early entry tricks.

Which books are each of those from? I think Illumian is Races of Destiny, and I know where to get Bards (duh) along with Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, and Heighten Spell, but Krau Sigil, Earth Spell, Talfirian Song, and Snowcasting are unfamiliar to me.

[MilesTiden]

Which books are each of those from? I think Illumian is Races of Destiny, and I know where to get Bards (duh) along with Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, and Heighten Spell, but Krau Sigil, Earth Spell, Talfirian Song, and Snowcasting are unfamiliar to me.

The Krau Sigil is part of the Illumian racial abilities, Earth Spell is from Races of Stone, Talfirian Song is from Races of Faerun, and Snowcasting is from Frostburn. However, I'm not sure about the viability of some of then in early entry, as casters aren't my area of expertise.

[Necroticplague]

Also, Eldritch Corruption (heroes of horror) lets you heighten a spell two levels by doing con damage to an ally. And Sancum Spell can increase the level of a spell when youre in your sanctum.