Introducing a DM to new subsystems.

[torrasque666]

So my DM has, up until tonight, thought that Psionics and Tome of Battle were broken. I explained why they weren't, and he listened, but he still has no experience with those subsytems. He is allowing me to create two psionic characters to show him, and i'm going to surprise him with a martial adept. I'm looking for some mid-to-low op builds here. Not necessarily perfect, but a good way to introduce him to the systems.

Our restrictions: PHB 1&2, DMG, MM1, ToB, Eberron books, 2 books (non-setting specific) and 1 singular thing from any book(again, non-setting) or dragon. Magic Item Compendium as well as Spell Compendium are off the table(SC is being used as errata, MIC requires DM fiat because it can get a bit hectic)

These are level 6 to 8ish builds. Two flaws are allowed.

I'm looking for something along the lines of an ELI5 build, as I have to learn these new systems as well(DM's assistant, i handle player crunch[basically, new player interviews, making sure rules are right, etc], he directs the plot)

[Threadnaught]

I assume you're building something for your DM as well?

I'd simply ask the players whether they want to play as a Paladin, Monk, Fighter, Wizard, Sorcerer or Cleric. Then set them onto the Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade.

Then there's asking them what tricks they want to learn.


Don't forget to help your DM create a Martial Initiator/Psionic Manifester as an encounter.

[JusticeZero]

Has your GM encountered a T1 being played to its potential yet? You may need to toss a Wizard gish around to embarrass the sword swingers to stretch out the envelope first, if they're used to bandage Clerics and fireball chuckers.

[Red Fel]

The first rule about introducing a DM to new subsystems is the "keep it simple" rule - no cheese, no fancy dips, keep the builds as simple and fun as possible. Don't show off. Just present them as you would any other class.

A martial adept build is the most straightforward thing in the world to do - the classes are so solid you can single-class them. If you don't want to overwhelm the DM, and want to show him that the classes are playable-and-fun-but-not-overpowered, just single-class a Crusader or Warblade. You get your smattering of maneuvers, your functional class features, nothing earthshattering. Don't do dips or cheese or fancy feats. Avoid over-optimizing if possible.

Psionics is harder, since there's so much for it. Playing a Psion means playing a highly optimizable class. Still, I would suggest that over a PsiWar - gishes tend to raise eyebrows if they're too effective. Avoid the ACFs - that's a lot to swallow at once. Pick a specialization that can be overshadowed if needed. Don't go nova too often. Don't BFC excessively. And whatever you do, don't do anything to render a party member redundant. No Thrallherd or dual-progression psionic-and-caster classes. Single-class it if possible.

A lot of the advice boils down to not intimidating the DM. If you fly in, guns blazing, it will be the first and last time he allows these subsystems. Be good, but not amazing. Show that the classes function, not that they dominate.

As an aside, you didn't mention XPH on your list. Is that going to be one of your two non-specific books? Kind of hard to do Psionics without it.

[Segev]

I suggest a Psion, probably a Shaper or a Telepath (depending on how you want to show psionics working), and a Wilder that is going for a VERY focused build. For your Martial Adept, I suggest either a Warblade with two levels of PsyWarrior dipped (to show the two systems combined) or a Swordsage; the single-classed Swordsage has the dirt-simplest recharge mechanic and has the most options on the board at once.

For the Wilder, go for Vigor. We're avoiding overt cheese, so just start with Vigor and psi powers to make an effective meleeist. Mobility to close, that sort of thing. Might pick up Share Pain to be a friendly tank-helper to the party, sacrificing your Wild Surged Vigor-granted temp hp to mitigate damage to them. Later, you can reveal the psicrystal share pain/shared Vigor trick, but for now, keep it simple. You want powers that provide basic utility to keep the Wilder in the fight and powers that can be augmented for big impact.

For the Psion, you really need to decide what it is you want to showcase. The Shaper would probably best be centered around its astral constructs. Telepaths make for good charm-based characters, and level 1 Mindlink means they can be a telecommunications hub for the party and ensure private conversations.

[torrasque666]

Has your GM encountered a T1 being played to its potential yet? You may need to toss a Wizard gish around to embarrass the sword swingers to stretch out the envelope first, if they're used to bandage Clerics and fireball chuckers.

Oh he has. One of our player's had run the Killer Gnome and was pretty much decimating anything he could throw at us.



The first rule about introducing a DM to new subsystems is the "keep it simple" rule - no cheese, no fancy dips, keep the builds as simple and fun as possible. Don't show off. Just present them as you would any other class.

A martial adept build is the most straightforward thing in the world to do - the classes are so solid you can single-class them. If you don't want to overwhelm the DM, and want to show him that the classes are playable-and-fun-but-not-overpowered, just single-class a Crusader or Warblade. You get your smattering of maneuvers, your functional class features, nothing earthshattering. Don't do dips or cheese or fancy feats. Avoid over-optimizing if possible.

I was planning on mid-to-low op for these. Wasn't going to dip or cheese(hell, I don't think I even know any cheese other than d2 crusader, but that's a bit high level(ECL wise) for our group.


Psionics is harder, since there's so much for it. Playing a Psion means playing a highly optimizable class. Still, I would suggest that over a PsiWar - gishes tend to raise eyebrows if they're too effective. Avoid the ACFs - that's a lot to swallow at once. Pick a specialization that can be overshadowed if needed. Don't go nova too often. Don't BFC excessively. And whatever you do, don't do anything to render a party member redundant. No Thrallherd or dual-progression psionic-and-caster classes. Single-class it if possible.


I was considering both a Psion and a PsiWar due to how a Psion is pretty much the iconic Psionic, but a PsiWar can be a bit lower on the totem pole.


A lot of the advice boils down to not intimidating the DM. If you fly in, guns blazing, it will be the first and last time he allows these subsystems. Be good, but not amazing. Show that the classes function, not that they dominate.

As an aside, you didn't mention XPH on your list. Is that going to be one of your two non-specific books? Kind of hard to do Psionics without it.

Yes, the XPH will have to be one of the two non-specifics.


I suggest a Psion, probably a Shaper or a Telepath (depending on how you want to show psionics working), and a Wilder that is going for a VERY focused build. For your Martial Adept, I suggest either a Warblade with two levels of PsyWarrior dipped (to show the two systems combined) or a Swordsage; the single-classed Swordsage has the dirt-simplest recharge mechanic and has the most options on the board at once.

I was considering trying to combine the two, but decided against it.

[Larkas]

Hmmm... I'd avoid crusader because of the recharge mechanic. It can be too much work for the uninitiated, specially without using maneuver cards. If you want to go decidedly low-op, make a swordsage without Adaptive Style. Otherwise, just build a warblade. Regarding the maneuvers, just ask your DM to select the ones he thinks sound coolest! The system is internally consistent enough to let a player select maneuvers by name alone and still end up with a pretty good build!

Regarding psionics, I'd build a psychic warrior, explaining that it's pretty much a "bard meets ranger" class mechanically, but that it's closer to a monk in flavor. Don't pick off-list powers at all and you should be fine. Also, build a telepath, explaining that the psion is the psychic wizard. Mind the PP cap always!

[Extra Anchovies]

I definitely agree with Larkas about staying away from Crusader for now. Warblade is probably the best bet, because the Swordsage's larger arsenal of maneuvers can seem kinda OP at first glance. Maybe a Warblade focused somewhat on White Raven maneuvers and stances.

As for psionics, I don't really think I can help you there. I accidentally got hold of a 3.0.0 Psionics Handbook (yes, the one with psionic combat modes) a few years back and read it cover-to-cover; I've only had a 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook for about a week or two and haven't touched it much. Thus, pretty much everything I say about Psionics is going to be wrong :smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

I definitely agree with Larkas about staying away from Crusader for now. Warblade is probably the best bet, because the Swordsage's larger arsenal of maneuvers can seem kinda OP at first glance. Maybe a Warblade focused somewhat on White Raven maneuvers and stances.

I agree to a certain extent. Crusader's recharge maneuver is very different, and more than a bit confusing. Printing out the cards definitely helps. (And look, you can get them here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a), for free!)

The reason I might suggest Crusader over Warblade is that Crusader is an extremely simple class. They have very few maneuvers, from very few disciplines. They have very few class features. Their recharge is automatic, rather than manual. And they are probably, of the three base ToB classes, the best suited to straightforward (if sub-optimal) "spank-and-tank" tactics.

My second choice is definitely Warblade. It still has a smaller pool of maneuvers than Swordsage, but it has a superior recovery mechanic. The daunting aspects of Warblade, however, are (1) it can quickly and easily recover all of its expended maneuvers, which leads wary DMs to worry; (2) it gets a wide assortment of Int-based bonuses to various things; (3) bonus feats, previously the purview of the Fighter; (4) Weapon Aptitude, aka what feat retraining should be. I'm not saying these are bad things (I happen to think they're awesome), but rather that they constitute a lot of moving parts of which the DM will want to keep track. ("Wait, you add your Int to what now? How did you get Weapon Focus in that? Why do you need bonus feats if you're supposed to be better than a Fighter?" Etc.)

Swordsage... I love Swordsage dearly, but he has the most (Su) maneuvers. And I don't just mean the descriptor, either; he can teleport, fly, walk on walls... It's far too easy for a DM to throw his hands up and say, "Just play a Warlock already!" And he has a massive maneuver pool, which - as Extra points out - makes him look far more powerful than he really is. I'd avoid Swordsage until the DM is far more comfortable with maneuvers.

As an aside, White Raven is an awesome choice for maneuvers. By acting as a force multiplier, you can avoid overshadowing the party by making the party more effective. Also a good option is Ironheart Aura (although you might want to steer clear of Stormguard Warrior, that kind of damage explosion might shock your DM a bit). Basically, any time you can act in a support role is a great opportunity to show the class as a strong class without overshadowing the party.

[Extra Anchovies]

Taking a second look at the crusader (now that I've been reminded of its narrow maneuver list), I can see how that would work. Especially in a mid/low-level build like the ones torrasque will be making, it won't have so many excess maneuvers that its recharge gets too heavy on bookwork.

As a side note (forgot to put this in my first post), what exactly is the d2 Crusader? I've heard at least two mentions of it in the past few days, but I've only really dabbled in optimization and thus have no clue what it is. All I have to go in is one of the references to it also mentioned shurikens, and those deal a d2.

[JusticeZero]

It's a rules quirk. Crusaders have some mechanism that uses rerolls to put a bottom floor on their rolled damage, and if you use a weapon that only does 1d2, it creates an infinite loop.

[Segev]

What exactly is the d2 Crusader? I've heard at least two mentions of it in the past few days, but I've only really dabbled in optimization and thus have no clue what it is. All I have to go in is one of the references to it also mentioned shurikens, and those deal a d2.


It's a rules quirk. Crusaders have some mechanism that uses rerolls to put a bottom floor on their rolled damage, and if you use a weapon that only does 1d2, it creates an infinite loop.

Specifically, one of their Stances lets them re-roll damage any time it comes up "1," and another maneuver they have available to them causes their damage dice to become open-ended. That means, if they roll maximum, they roll again and add that maximum to the total, repeating until they don't roll maximum.

So, with just open-ended d2s, if you rolled 2, 2, 2, 1, you'd do 7 damage, because you re-rolled each time you got a 2.

With the Aura that lets them re-roll 1s, every time they roll a 1, they re-roll it, and every time they roll a 2, they re-roll it and add 2. This literally does infinite (as opposed to arbitrary-but-finite) damage.

[Extra Anchovies]

Specifically, one of their Stances lets them re-roll damage any time it comes up "1," and another maneuver they have available to them causes their damage dice to become open-ended. That means, if they roll maximum, they roll again and add that maximum to the total, repeating until they don't roll maximum.

So, with just open-ended d2s, if you rolled 2, 2, 2, 1, you'd do 7 damage, because you re-rolled each time you got a 2.

With the Aura that lets them re-roll 1s, every time they roll a 1, they re-roll it, and every time they roll a 2, they re-roll it and add 2. This literally does infinite (as opposed to arbitrary-but-finite) damage.

Woah. How did they miss that? I guess nobody thought that a crusader-type character would be using shuriken...

After a brief skim through the ToB maneuvers, I found Aura of Chaos (the stance that lets them re-roll and add maximum damage dice, which is crazy enough on its own), but can't find the maneuver that allows them to reroll minimums, at least not among the three styles normally available to Crusaders. Do you happen to remember its name?

[Segev]

Woah. How did they miss that? I guess nobody thought that a crusader-type character would be using shuriken...

After a brief skim through the ToB maneuvers, I found Aura of Chaos (the stance that lets them re-roll and add maximum damage dice, which is crazy enough on its own), but can't find the maneuver that allows them to reroll minimums, at least not among the three styles normally available to Crusaders. Do you happen to remember its name?

That MIGHT not have been a Crusader thing, then. I know it exists, but I don't recall where, sadly.

Google, however, comes through for us! (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=80909&page=6) At least one way to do it is to get Imbued Healing cast on you by a cleric with the Luck Domain, it seems.

[torrasque666]

So I just built the Psion for him in the past 30 minutes using both Heroforge and Spellforge. Here's what I have. Keep in mind that this is supposed to be as a way for him to learn how Psionics and/or TOB classes work, not necessarily optimized or even very good, just learning the mechanics.
PSION
RACE: Psiforged(Warforged, Psiforged Body feat)
FLAWS: No time for book learning(because I find the idea of High-INT characters who can't read hilarious) and Metal Intolerance(Again, for funnies)
FEATS:



1
Psiforged Body


flaw
Mithral Body


flaw
Psionic Body


psion bonus
Psionic Talent


3
Psionic Talent


psion bonus
Psionic Talent


6
Psionic Talent


STATS:(34 Point Buy)

STR
10


DEX
12


CON
14


INT
21(18 start, +1 level, +2 item)


WIS
10


CHA
10



Dagger and Mithral Plating

Powers:


1st Level
2nd Level
3rd level


Charm, Psionic
Bestow Power
Body Adjustment


Deflection Field
Ego Whip
Psionic Blast


Mind Thrust
Read Thoughts
Telekinetic Thrust


Mindlink
Suggestion, Psionic
Time Hop


Telempathic Projection





Still working on the Psiwar and the Warblade. Any thoughts?
PSIWAR
RACE: Psiforged(Warforged, Psiforged Body feat)
FLAWS: Bravado and Fussy
FEATS:


1
Psiforged Body


flaw
Adamantine Body


flaw
Psionic Body


psiwar bonus
Power Attack


psiwar bonus
Psionic Weapon


3
Psionic Talent


psiwar bonus
Improved Initiative


6
Expanded Knowledge



STATS:(34 Point Buy)

STR
15


DEX
10


CON
12


INT
12


WIS
19(16 start, +1 level, +2 item)


CHA
8



Greatsword and Addy Plating

Powers:


1st Level
2nd Level


Detect Psionics
Animal Affinity


Expansion
Body Adjustment


Grease, Psionic(Ex. Know)
Psionic Lion's Charge


Vigor



WARBLADE

RACE: Warforged
FLAWS: Frail, Shakey
FEATS:


1
Adamantine Body


flaw
Adaptive Style


flaw
EWP(Bastard Sword)


3
Power Attack


Warblade bonus
Improved Initiative


6
Ironheart Aura


STATS:(34 Point Buy)

STR
16


DEX
12


CON
16


INT
16


WIS
8


CHA
8



Greatsword and Addy Plating

Maneuvers and Stances



× Warblade - Initiator Level: 6 Known: 6 Readied: 4 Stances: 2
× Moment of Perfect Mind (R) (Diamond Mind) (Counter Level 1)
× Action Before Thought (R) (Diamond Mind) (Counter Level 2)
× Steel Wind (R) (Iron Heart) (Strike Level 1) (
× Iron Heart Surge (R) (Iron Heart) (Level 3)
× Douse the Flames (White Raven) (Strike Level 1)
× Leading the Attack (White Raven) (Strike Level 1)
× Stance of Clarity (Diamond Mind) (Stance Level 1)
× Punishing Stance (Iron Heart) (Stance Level 1)

[Jeff the Green]

That MIGHT not have been a Crusader thing, then. I know it exists, but I don't recall where, sadly.

Google, however, comes through for us! (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=80909&page=6) At least one way to do it is to get Imbued Healing cast on you by a cleric with the Luck Domain, it seems.

Yeah, d2 Crusader is just a matter of two different things in two different splats synergizing in an interesting way. It's not particularly damning of WotC's editors. (Not that they don't already have plenty of other things putting them on a south-bound train).

[torrasque666]

So now that I have the builds ready, how do they look?

[Segev]

So now that I have the builds ready, how do they look?

I know you're trying to keep it simple, but I suggest replacing the Psion Bonus Feat at level 1 with the Psicrystal feat. It would help to show him that the Psion-equivalent of a familiar has to be purchased with their level 1 feat. Where a wizard gets an item creation feat AND a familiar at level 1.

By showing the costs to have the parallel, you'll highlight both a similarity and a difference with a thing with which he's already familiar.

[Larkas]

Are the flaws really necessary?

[torrasque666]

I can take flaws, so why wouldn't I? Feats are a valuable and scarce resource. Even I understand that much, and I'm really only good with Warforged Beatsticks(I like Warforged, can you tell?)

[Larkas]

I can take flaws, so why wouldn't I? Feats are a valuable and scarce resource. Even I understand that much, and I'm really only good with Warforged Beatsticks(I like Warforged, can you tell?)

Because you're showcasing two subsystems to a wary DM. Feats = power, and you said yourself you were aiming at lower OP/power. Flaws not necessarily throw that out the window, but they certainly increase OP/power a bit. You could use them after you convince your DM that the subsystems are reasonable, when you're building a character for actual play.

Or not.

[Segev]

Well, the answer to the question of whether you should use flaws in this build is the same as the answer to the following one: "Does the DM allow flaws already in his game, with subsystems with which he's familiar?"

[torrasque666]

Yes he does, and as such I'm applying them because why pass on two free feats? And its not like I'm using them to get the absolute most out of a build. Hell, on the Psionics its being used to get more HP and that's about it.

[Segev]

If the DM allows it normally, it's not a "new" thing to him and thus should be there when showing him how a new subsystem fits in with what he already knows.