Paladin archetypes

[Duke Malagigi]

Previously posted on 3rd Edtion.org under the name "Malagigi" and on the Umbrasa Gravelands under the name "Agrippa." See here (http://www.3rdedition.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6042) and here (http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/v2/YaBB.pl?num=1170309051).
I have a humble question to ask of you. Who would you consider paladin material? To me the best examples of paladin hood would be the Carolinian Paladins (the Peers of Charlemagne), Salah al-Din (known better as Saladin), Hiawatha, General Charles "Chinese" Gordon, General Dwight Eisenhower, Jean ‘dArc, and Colonel T.E. Lawrence. Who would your picks be?

A short list of Carolinian Paladins and their attributes.

Malagigi- spy, court necromancer, terror among the Fallen Angels (in other words all fiends), functions as the Emperor's chief counter intelligence officer, and was raised by six fairies including Morgana.
Archbishop Turpin- an 8th-9th century Catholic clergyman, and mentor to Charlemagne. Archbishop of Rheims. Main inspiration for D&D's cleric class.
Rinaldo- possessor of Bayard and cousin to Malagigi. After Bayard's death he cast aside his sword and became a hermit. He was latter clubbed to death by jealous workmen.
Roland- the son of the banished knight Milon or Milone and the Emperor's sister Bertha, was raised as a peasant until his uncle came to Sutri for a grand feast. During the feast, Roland stole some of the food served at the feast and tried to carry it back to his mother. When Charlemagne saw the theft he was reminded of a dream he once had. Because of this dream he had, he sent three knights to follow the young boy and bring him back for questioning. As a result of this attempted theft, Roland as well as his mother and father were taken back into Charlemagne's court.
Ogier the Dane- one of Charlemagne's greatest warriors against the Saxons, almost became king of France after Hugh Capet's death according to legend and was the godson of six fairies, including Morgana. He now lives with Morgana and her brother, Arthur, in Avalon.
Astolpho- the king of England.

Who would your picks be.

[Toliudar]

Twentieth century figures - especially ones connected to political power - are hard to combine with my vision of paladins, because there are so many comprimises and balancings of competing goods to be factored in.

Way easier to be a paladin when you're fictitious.

[Duke Malagigi]

Any other suggestions?

[Tor the Fallen]

Way easier to be a paladin when you're fictitious.

Yup.


I'm going to go with Lancelot, as per T. H. White's The Once and Future King.

[alchemy.freak]

Personally I play an Inquisitor type Paladin. i know someone is close to that archetype, i just have no idea what his name is.

[Wippit Guud]

Roland Deschain, gunslinger.

[Renegade Paladin]

The obvious answer is Sir Galahad. I hate obvious answers. :smallamused:

I would say Sir Gawaine. He's heroic and devoted to duty, but unlike Galahad and to some extent Launcelot, he's a very human character. He has his flaws, one of which was fatal, but at the end of the day he was dedicated to what was right.

[Aducabar]

Knez Lazar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_of_Serbia), XIV century ruler of my country, Serbia, is rememberd as a paladin-like pious holy warrior-king and saint. I bet there is at least one similar (semi)historical figure in every nations history.

[Piedmon_Sama]

T.E Lawrence as a Paladin? That doesn't sound right to me at all. The man was admirable in many ways, but he butchered a column of retreating Turkic troops. It was a serious violation of the rules of war. Patton is a better example, though....

[TheOOB]

Roland Deschain, gunslinger.

As awesome as Roland is, he wouldn't last two seconds as a paladin. He's god the lawful part down pat...but to call him "good" would be a pretty big stretch.

[Wippit Guud]

As awesome as Roland is, he wouldn't last two seconds as a paladin. He's god the lawful part down pat...but to call him "good" would be a pretty big stretch.

For the condition of the world he exists in, I would call him good. Cause, lets face it... the world has moved on, and there's not else good in it.

[Toliudar]

Yeah. This is the difficulty - real people seldom up to such scrutiny.

Having said that, I'll dive in with a few possibilities, off the top of my head:
Henry V (with a few levels of rogue before he took the throne)
Romeo Dellaire
Brutus

[Stephen_E]

Henry the 5th, thank you Toliudar (English King at Agincourt amongst other things)

Vlad the Impaler would fit the Grey Guard, Paladin Pestige - Complete Scoundrel.

Stephen

[Toliudar]

I think Agincourt was Henry V. Henry IV lead a rebellion to take the throne from Richard II.

[Maryring]

From the fictional world, I'll have to say that the very best Paladin would have to be Sailor Moon/Usagi Tsukino. I find her behaviour to be very fitting for a Paladin (albeit a low wisdom one). She is compassionate, brave, devout and is always willing to give others a second chance.

From the real world, the "best" paladin will have to be Jeanne D'arc, for obvious reasons.

[Tengu]

Since we're entering the territory of anime, Vash the Stampede is a great example of a paladin - completely lacking the stick in the arse, too. Surely exalted, with vow of nonviolence.

[Little_Rudo]

For a 'real world' example of a paladin, I'd also have to go with Jeanne D'Arc. I don't know much about the solid facts of her life (we will be reading a book on her in Medieval History this semester), but from the general stories I recall, she seems very much the archytpical paladin: She was called to it by her God, and fought and died for her belief's, despite society's expectations of a woman at the time. Very paladin-esque.

[Tobrian]

For fictional characters:
Don Quixote de la Mancha; less maybe the character from the novel by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, but the version from the movie The Man from La Mancha (1972) with Peter O'Toole.
Of course, he was supposed to be insane to believe in chivalry and knightly virtues.

[rollfrenzy]

How about Hiro or Peter Petrelli from Heroes as a ficitional Paladin?

Real world, Martin Luther King, or possibly Washington?

[Maroon]

Galahad, if you consider Arthurian legends canon. He's basically The Paladin.

[elliott20]

While they have paladin-like qualities, I wouldn't necessarily call them paladins as a result of it. For one thing, what are we defining as paladinhood?

Does fighting for justice alone make you a paladin (in which case, a lawyer that takes on pro bono work might count), or does it require a certain outlook, and perhaps other elements to go with it?

Martin Luther King and Washington, while great men, I don't think would quite be fit for paladin levels. In fact, I would say that Martin Luther King would be a more effective Cleric than paladin.

[rollfrenzy]

*snip

Martin Luther King and Washington, while great men, I don't think would quite be fit for paladin levels. In fact, I would say that Martin Luther King would be a more effective Cleric than paladin.

I agree. The total pacifism doesn't really fit.


Are we including "Evil" paladins? *cough* bin ladin *cough*.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Some people will want to kill me for this suggestion, but Son Goku from Dragonball and Dragonball Z is a good example of a Lawful Good character.

He really is not in it to destroy evil (which would be the only point that disqualifies him for paladin status), he actually trains and becomes more powerful out of a sense of discipline, and to perfect himself.

The reason why he fights evil is because he loves his friends and he loves earth and he fights anybody who would threaten them. He is also a firm believer in redemption and mercy.

That's why, every single time when Goku fights a BBEG, he actually refrains from killing him, offering him an opportunity to reflect on his actions and "train so that we can fight again some other time". Many of these opponents seized this opportunity and ran away, to increase their powers and "get revenge" but even in these cases, this encounter with mercy changed them (Yamcha, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta, etc).

He does love to fight, more than anything else (except maybe food), but his "ideal fight" would be a friendly sparring match with a reaaally powerful opponent that pushes him to the limit of his abilities.

In fact, all of Goku's companions were former opponents, and except probably Vegeta, all of them experienced redemption and genuine change.

Others, of course (Freezer comes to mind) tried to backstab him just after he makes his offer, and were destroyed afterwards, so he's no fool (at least not in combat).

However he also is not in it for power itself, he was given the option to become Earth's Kamisama (Protector God), and he declined.


Don Quixote de la Mancha [...]
Of course, he was supposed to be insane to believe in chivalry and knightly virtues.

Which speaks volumes about the paladin class as a whole, Im afraid...


Are we including "Evil" paladins? *cough* bin ladin *cough*.

Well, Bin Laden apparently qualifies for Greyguard status, as he is a "divine" fighter that is not afraid to use questionable methods to further his religious war.

[Brauron]

Dang, now I really want to play a Don Quixote-based Paladin.

[Person_Man]

Yeah. This is the difficulty - real people seldom up to such scrutiny.

Having said that, I'll dive in with a few possibilities, off the top of my head:
Henry V (with a few levels of rogue before he took the throne)
Romeo Dellaire
Brutus

Brutus? As in Marcus Junius Brutus, the politician who made his fortune loaning money to war victims at 48% interest, who later become a corrupt quaestor (treasury official/tax collector), who them betrayed and killed Caesar, his friend, the lawful leader of the known world (albiet, after a civil war), who had given Brutus clemency after siding against him in the civil war and appointed him as a governor and then praetor (important magistrate). That Brutus?

Sure, maybe assassinating a dictator and standing up for your republican beliefs is a brave and perhaps moral thing to do. But by no stretch of the imagination was Brutus Paladin-like.

Also, who is Romeo Dellaire? I have an encyclopedic knowledge of classical history, but I'm more then willing to admit my ignorance when I've never heard a name before.


Dang, now I really want to play a Don Quixote-based Paladin.

That's an awesome idea. Just dump Wis down to 3 and ask your DM for a house rule that lets you cast spells using Cha (its a weak class anyway, so why not?)

[Teloric]

My favourite paladin archetype? The Duke himself - John Wayne. If you're familiar with his movies, many of his characters fit my idea of a Paladin almost perfectly. Yes, even Rooster Cogburn...

[Thomas]

Of course, he was supposed to be insane to believe in chivalry and knightly virtues.

Joan of Arc seems to have been pretty insane, too. Insanity is a requisite for paladins when gods don't actually exist and speak to people.

They're both good examples, though.

[Reltzik]

Oh dear. I do smell gasoline.

I WAS going to say Wyatt Earp, but I did a little bit of online research and it turns out he wasn't.

[JadedDM]

Optimus Prime.

[Maryring]

Oh dear. I do smell gasoline.
Way ahead of you. I've already brought the extinguisher.

[Person_Man]

Optimus Prime.

Gestalt Warforged Paladin 20/Druid 20 with the City Soul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Wildshape variant?

[Dragor]

For a 'real world' example of a paladin, I'd also have to go with Jeanne D'Arc. I don't know much about the solid facts of her life (we will be reading a book on her in Medieval History this semester), but from the general stories I recall, she seems very much the archytpical paladin: She was called to it by her God, and fought and died for her belief's, despite society's expectations of a woman at the time. Very paladin-esque.

Seconded whole-heartedly. Joan (I prefer it to Jeanne) is, in my opinion, the Paladin archetype, more than any other. She fought for her faith, she fought with conviction; she rose above everybody's sexist views of her.

[Krellen]

For the real world, I would suggest George Washington had Paladin-like qualities. He suffered through Valley Forge with his troops, he turned down a crown, and he walked away from power. Whatever else you may say of him, these are all Paladin-like behaviours.

Fictionally, the best example of a Paladin from modern entertainment I've seen was Killian Darkwater, the Mayor/Sheriff of Junktown from Fallout. The man oozed Paladin - of the Hinjo breed, not the Miko breed.

[elliott20]

well, the thing is, great qualities do not always mean paladinhood though. Washington would have made a great paladin, and so would Forrest Gump, but the fact of the matter is they are not paladins.

When people juxtapose paladinhood with people from a modern era, it comes across as kind of odd to me because I have always felt that Paladinhood was something that belonged to the image of chivalry. Hell, even by Don Quixote's time paladinhood (or rather, Knight Errants) was going out of style. That's part of the whole point of the story. Don Quixote is a man caught out of time.

That's why I said that people need to define paladinhood more solidly before you can even name who is a paladin.

[pestilenceawaits]

Gestalt Warforged Paladin 20/Druid 20 with the City Soul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Wildshape variant?

Man that is awesome I think I may have to steal this.:smalltongue:

[Duke Malagigi]

I agree. The total pacifism doesn't really fit.


Are we including "Evil" paladins? *cough* bin ladin *cough*.

Perhaps, but in different thread.

[PnP Fan]

I think you could probably make an argument in favor of Angel, his personality at least.

[Duke Malagigi]

My qualifications for paladins are: religiosity, courage, keen intellect, strong belief in justice, mercy towards the weak, destitute and abused, willingness to punish others and your self for evil acts no matter how much harm you your self suffer, wisdom as well as a certain sense of romanticism. Also depending upon which alignment you choose, Lawful (regular paladin), Neutral (knight benefactor) or Chaotic (marshal of liberty) you might want to look at the alignment thread I once started (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2093142#post2093142). Sanity is optional.

Oh, and what do you think about Grant as a paladin.

[JadedDM]

I think you could probably make an argument in favor of Angel, his personality at least.

Assuming you are talking about Joss Whedon's Angel, I'm not so sure. Angel did a lot of questionable things (and I'm not talking about when he was souless). I remember one episode in the last season where he killed an innocent in order to 'prove' he was evil to this evil cult/organization in order to infiltrate them. I can't see a paladin doing that, even if it was for a good cause.

I'd peg Angel as more Neutral Good than anything.

[Goff]

Oliver Cromwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell)strikes me as Paladin-like in his intentions, although he may well fit into the religious-crazy slot.
At first I thought of Monty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Law_Montgomery%2C_1st_Viscount_Montgomery_ of_Alamein), but on second thoughts he was just one of the finest strategists of the modern era.

[Stephen_E]

Fantasy

I'd agree with Angel.

Paksenarrion - Deeds of * by Elizabeth Moon (but then the character is a Paladin by the end of the trilogy).

Shoku - Paladin by C.J. Cherryh (no, there are no "Paladins" as such in the book)

Ender Wiggen - From Orson Scott Card's series.

Tristan - from the Calladre Trilogy by Susan Dexter (he's actually a Wizard, but acts completely like a Paladin).

Cordelia - from Lois Bujolds Barrayar series

With 116m of packed bookshelves just in my bedroom I could keep going for a long time jut by scanning the shelve in front of me. :smallsmile:

Stephen

[Matthew]

Hmmn. No, not Angel, unless often falls and repents or something.

Yeah, mainly fictional knights of the court of King Arthur and Charlemagne. Joan of Arc, probably a number of crusaders and their opponents, though there some undiscussable problems exist. Basically, the source material... though, I hear Three Lions was a major source for this.

I guess Sparhawk might also make the grade and probably Prince Imrahil. Modern Fantasy tends to purposefully test the boundaries, though, so it is difficult to say.

[kamikasei]

I agree on Vash, disagree on Ender. Imrahil is a good catch, Matthew.

[Desaril]

I'm using Duke Malagigi's qualifications, because it his post (although I pretty much agree).

I'm amazed that noone has mentioned my obvious fictional choices:

Captain America/Superman- if you replace devotion to a god to devotion to a cause, i.e truth, justice and the American way.

NEO from the Matrix- although he tried to deny his predestination and hated the notion that he was not in control, he did spend his life seeking to help the weak and promote freedom. He ultimately gave his life to save humanity

Luke Skywalker/Obi wan- Although Luke was tempted by the Dark Side, he never tipped over and regularly risked his life to defend the weak and promote his "religion"

Paul Muad'dib- You have to read Children of Dune to see the whole story, but Paul is driven by his religion, merciless to his enemies and devoted to avoiding the war he sees in his visions. He reappears as the Prophet to prevent his Empire from waging that war.

In real life:
I'm no expert and I don't know any particular names, but I imagine that many native american warriors and leaders would fit the image of paladinhood. Much literature depicts many Native Americans as brave noble, spritual and capable warriors. They employed their own notion of chivalry, although different from their European enemies.

From mythology:
Odysseus- although he was a trickster (but that was an admirable quality in Hellenic culture)

Perseus- obvious faith in the gods (Zeus was his father!), brave, selfless, etc

Hector- He was everything we're talking about

[Duke Malagigi]

I'm using Duke Malagigi's qualifications, because it his post (although I pretty much agree).

I'm amazed that noone has mentioned my obvious fictional choices:

Captain America/Superman- if you replace devotion to a god to devotion to a cause, i.e truth, justice and the American way.

NEO from the Matrix- although he tried to deny his predestination and hated the notion that he was not in control, he did spend his life seeking to help the weak and promote freedom. He ultimately gave his life to save humanity

Luke Skywalker/Obi wan- Although Luke was tempted by the Dark Side, he never tipped over and regularly risked his life to defend the weak and promote his "religion"

Paul Muad'dib- You have to read Children of Dune to see the whole story, but Paul is driven by his religion, merciless to his enemies and devoted to avoiding the war he sees in his visions. He reappears as the Prophet to prevent his Empire from waging that war.

In real life:
I'm no expert and I don't know any particular names, but I imagine that many native american warriors and leaders would fit the image of paladinhood. Much literature depicts many Native Americans as brave noble, spritual and capable warriors. They employed their own notion of chivalry, although different from their European enemies.

From mythology:
Odysseus- although he was a trickster (but that was an admirable quality in Hellenic culture)

Perseus- obvious faith in the gods (Zeus was his father!), brave, selfless, etc

Hector- He was everything we're talking about

I'd have to agree with you Desaril. They'd all qualify.

[Khizan]

Fantasy
Cordelia - from Lois Bujolds Barrayar series


I don't see how you can give paladin to Cordelia, yet stint Miles Vorkosigan.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Fiction- Ky Kiske from the Guilty Gear series. He quickly became my favorite character selection for exactly this reason.

Non-fiction- King Leonidas I. I'm surprised with the hyped movie so close to coming out that no one's mentioned this incredibly brave general yet.

Also, while I forget his name, there was a Roman soldier who, according to legend, held off an invasion against the capital in the times before the founding of the Empire all by himself so that none of his friends or family would have to risk their lives. Supposedly, he fought so well that he even survived the incident once they collapsed the bridge.

[Reltzik]

Gustav Adolphus of Sweeden.

[Stephen_E]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_E http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2149213#post2149213)
Fantasy
Cordelia - from Lois Bujolds Barrayar series



I don't see how you can give paladin to Cordelia, yet stint Miles Vorkosigan.

Miles is a odd character. He's a swashbuckler, a rogue. He's the PC who you watch him playing and say "So you're a Paladin" only to find he isn't. I can't make up my mind if he was a Paladin sometimes and a fell and atoned often or just never really became one. He liked the shadow ops, and manipulating people to much to ever really be a Paladin.

Cordelia is the person who made others pull up their socks and straighten up merely by her presence. How could someone raised by her NOT be a hero. Miles made people tear their hair out. Cordelia made others feel humble, left gutter fighting politicians feeling bad about what they'd done. Look at Cordelias intereactions with Bothari compared to Miles. Cordelia HEALED him and made him in to something close to a person. Miles LEAD him.

Miles is a great character, but not a Paladin.

Re: Angel was a Paladin who at the end fell and atoned in almost the same breath.

Stephen

[Stephen_E]

Non-fiction- King Leonidas I. I'm surprised with the hyped movie so close to coming out that no one's mentioned this incredibly brave general yet.

Also, while I forget his name, there was a Roman soldier who, according to legend, held off an invasion against the capital in the times before the founding of the Empire all by himself so that none of his friends or family would have to risk their lives. Supposedly, he fought so well that he even survived the incident once they collapsed the bridge.

The Roman was Horatio of the bridge IIRC.

The problem with both of these is that I know of ONE incident of note for each. Paladinhood requires a pattern. The pattern may exist, but I'm not aware of it.

Stephen

[Renegade Paladin]

I don't know that any of the kings of Sparta would qualify as paladins under any circumstances. Lest we forget, the Spartans brutally practiced eugenics and all but lived for war. Brave fighting isn't the sole purview of paladins, you know.

[kamikasei]

Paul Muad'dib- You have to read Children of Dune to see the whole story, but Paul is driven by his religion, merciless to his enemies and devoted to avoiding the war he sees in his visions. He reappears as the Prophet to prevent his Empire from waging that war.

I don't see how that works. Driven by his religion doesn't sound much like Paul to me at all; and he was entirely willing to 'do evil' as it would be defined under the paladin's code.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

By our more modern standards (and the quasi-modernist standards of D&D)Leonidas might not be so paladin-y, but for his time period he was exceptional in his bravery, loyalty, compassion (for the people of Sparta, his allies, and his wife in particular), and sacrifice. If you take out the traits of his that were common for his era, he's certainly a qualified paladin.

Horatio's a bit harder to qualify beyond his one legendary feat, but these letters do help paint the picture of a man dedicated to his country and to his honor- http://www.s2company.com/files/readings/horatio_at_the_bridge.htm?pid=21&fid=319

[Telonius]

Roland Deschain, gunslinger.

Hmmm, I don't know about that one. I'd peg him as a Grey Guard, if anything. He's willing to destroy everything he loves in order to get to the Tower.

For historical guys ... possibly Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, Akbar the Great of the Mughals, or Mahatma Gandhi. (Treading very lightly here), the Prophet Muhammad and the early Caliphate could probably be considered Paladins.

For fictional characters: Galahad, Luke Skywalker (and the whole Jedi order), Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Professor Charles Xavier, Faramir, Tuor.

[Desaril]

@ kamikasei- I believe Paul felt driven by the Bene Gesserit breeding program and the Fremen messiah belief. By the end of the 1st book, he realized that he was the Mahdi, destined to make Arrakis green and elevate the pious, worthy Fremen to their rightful place in the universe.

I don't see where Paul was willing to do anything evil. He was willing to fight mercilessly against his enemies, but he did so with honor (remember he followed the Great Convention's prohibition against using atomics against people). Instead of destroying the Empire, he saved it by marrying Irulan and preserved peace. Finally, in Books 2 & 3, he sees the corruption of the Empire and resurfaces as theProphet to bring it down. Ultimately, his goal was to move humanity along the Golden Path toward peace and enlightenment.

Perhaps you can provide examples of "evil acts" Paul did. At best I would say that he used terrorist/guerilla tactics, but nothing evil.

[PnP Fan]

On Paul Atreides:
I'm not so sure that you could consider Paul a paladin. He doesn't exactly do "evil" per se, but initially at least, he is not religiously motivated. He uses the religion of the Fremen for his own purposes, to exact revenge upon the Harkonnen and Corrino families for what they did to his father. Revenge. . . not exactly the paladin's motivation. In the two follow up books, I'll agree, by the end he definitely sees the error of his ways, and wants to set humanity upon the golden path. But if he were a paladin, he would have the strength of character to do it himself (it was an option!), rather than push it onto his son. Smacks of a bit of cowardice. In any case, I'm still not sure that he is actually motivated by religion. I always got the impression that, since he was more of a genetic freak, that he used religion as a political device, not because he actually believed that he was the voice of god. Especially since, theoretically, his genetics could be reproduced by the breeding program, and he knows this. Which of course is what the golden path is, the genetic route to an unpredictable universe, and freedom for humanity.
Don't get me wrong, I love those books, and the characters (and look forward to the publication of the final 7th book, even if it's written by two hacks instead of a real writer, imnsho).

On Angel: Agree, in the final season there are definitely some ethically questionable moments (save those for another thread ;-). What I had in mind was his general personality (brave, gallant, cares about others, willing to risk everything to do "the good", selfless, etc. . .)
Of course, sometimes he fails, gets a little wrapped up in himself, etc. . . he's only (sorta) human, but then most humans don't get turned into puppets either. ;-) hehehehhehee

Jedi/superman/Capt. America (rest his soul. . *sigh* stupid Marvel): agree wholeheartedly.

Wasn't one of the Musketeers rather relgious? Don't remember which one, or how serious he was about his relgion though. . . Can't remember if it was a serious component of the character, or a tongue-in-cheek comedic sort of thing.

Barring the lack of magic in the Song of Ice and Fire trillogy, I'd think that Eddard Stark's loyalty, honestly, honor, courage, piety, etc. . . would qualify him as a paladin, though probably a fallen paladin by the end of the first novel.. . . I won't spoil it for those who've not read A Game of Thrones.

Someone mentioned Grant, I'm assuming Ulysses S. (sp?). Not so sure about that. If I recall correctly, he drank to excess, and was sort of slovenly. I'm not sure if he was particularly pious even. And, from what I've read, he tolerated, and protected corrupt politics under his administration.

[kamikasei]

@ kamikasei- I believe Paul felt driven by the Bene Gesserit breeding program and the Fremen messiah belief. By the end of the 1st book, he realized that he was the Mahdi, destined to make Arrakis green and elevate the pious, worthy Fremen to their rightful place in the universe.

Okay, I... see no reason whatsoever to think that that's the case. Paul never, that I could see, fully bought into the religious beliefs about himself.


Perhaps you can provide examples of "evil acts" Paul did. At best I would say that he used terrorist/guerilla tactics, but nothing evil.

He unleashed the Jihad upon humanity. That was a wave of violence and suffering which, IIRC, was the worst the universe had seen for millennia. He committed or authorized any number of "administrative" evils through the use of assassination and all the tools of statecraft common in the Dune novels. Besides which, it's not exactly paladinish to overthrow an emperor, place yourself on his throne, and launch a pogrom against your enemies.

I don't think Paul, or even Leto, were evil. I do think that D&D alignments are utterly useless for describing almost anyone in those novels.

[Wippit Guud]

Barring the lack of magic in the Song of Ice and Fire trillogy, I'd think that Eddard Stark's loyalty, honestly, honor, courage, piety, etc. . . would qualify him as a paladin, though probably a fallen paladin by the end of the first novel.. . . I won't spoil it for those who've not read A Game of Thrones.

I would've pick Jon to be the paladin, personally. Even if he does have to atone once or twice for the good of those around him. And Brienne definitely has that paladin thing about her.

[PnP Fan]

I'd definitely buy into Brienne's paladinhood.
I'd have to think about Jon, but I can't immediately think of any reason why not.
I'm wondering how Jaime will measure up to the code by the time the novels end.
Oh, and Duncan the Tall / Dunk the Lunk would probably make a good paladin too.

[BlueWizard]

Charlemagne was brutal, and slaughtered many Northern pagans. I can't see the Carolingians anywhere near lawful good. Lawful neutral at most!

[Logic]

Gestalt Warforged Paladin 20/Druid 20 with the City Soul (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Wildshape variant?
With the exception that using that, he would have to be an Ex-something due to alignment restrictions? I don't peg Optimus as a druid anyway.

[Matthew]

Charlemagne was brutal, and slaughtered many Northern pagans. I can't see the Carolingians anywhere near lawful good. Lawful neutral at most!

I don't think we were meaning the historical Charlemagne, rather the literary version and his Paladins. A debate about the historical Charlemagne runs far too great a risk of exciting opinions on prohibited topics.

[Desaril]

@kamikasei- I guess we just read the books differently, but I believe that Paul ascended the Imperial Throne in order to control the Jihad. He foresaw that it would happen and wanted to contain it as much as he could. As you indicated, the genetic breeding program could easily recreate a Kwizatz Haderach, so he took the bull by the horns.

Although his initial purpose was revenge, after taking the Water of Life, I believe Paul accepted his role as a messiah and the torchbearer of Liet's dream of a green Arrakis. He could have stopped at taking back Arrakis and would have been happier with that. But he took the throne in order to preserve the Empire, not for power, glory or revenge. He then spread the Fremen religion across the Empire and brought everyone to heel.

It seems like your vote against Paul stems from a belief that his conversion was not genuine. I think Paul was serious, but put his own stamp on the religion, like many serious religious leaders (Constatine, Martin Luther).

[kamikasei]

@kamikasei- I guess we just read the books differently, but I believe that Paul ascended the Imperial Throne in order to control the Jihad. He foresaw that it would happen and wanted to contain it as much as he could. As you indicated, the genetic breeding program could easily recreate a Kwizatz Haderach, so he took the bull by the horns.

Although his initial purpose was revenge, after taking the Water of Life, I believe Paul accepted his role as a messiah and the torchbearer of Liet's dream of a green Arrakis. He could have stopped at taking back Arrakis and would have been happier with that. But he took the throne in order to preserve the Empire, not for power, glory or revenge. He then spread the Fremen religion across the Empire and brought everyone to heel.

It seems like your vote against Paul stems from a belief that his conversion was not genuine. I think Paul was serious, but put his own stamp on the religion, like many serious religious leaders (Constatine, Martin Luther).

Okay, this is straying off-topic, but I think this is still relevant to the point of the thread. I don't think Paul is a good example of a paladin because I don't think he's very paladinish, simple as that. He's not out to uphold good or punish the wicked, he's out to accomplish an end; the end may be good but doing good is not his purpose. Nor do I think he qualifies as religious. He seemed to share the cynical outlook on religions that his son and the Bene Gesserit describe at length.

Quite simply I don't see that D&D-style morality fits the Dune books at all. Using them as an example is possibly more muddy and confused than using real-world historical figures.

[PnP Fan]

Desaril, Kamikasei,
'Fraid I'll have to agree with Kamikasei on the whole Atreides discussion. The Dune setting doesn't exactly lend itself to "good vs. evil" interpretation. It tends to be Us vs. Them. The Them happens to be the grotesque Harkonnens that eat babies and install heart plugs, so we find them repulsive. Likewise, the Us is a likeable, even honorable, house Atreides, that gets victimized. But I'm not entirely convinced that the actions between the two are because "Harkonnens are evil". I wouldn't say Paul is a bad guy though. I think he found some useful tools in the Fremen,and a way to build a lasting empire (though he still fell short of the final step . ...) He's heroic, and a good guy, in an politically complicated environment that doesn't support truly good actions.
Glad to meet some fans of the books though, even if we don't necessarily agree on their meaning. :-)
Makes me want to re-read them . . .again!

[Amphimir Míriel]

I'd definitely buy into Brienne's paladinhood.
I'd have to think about Jon, but I can't immediately think of any reason why not.
I'm wondering how Jaime will measure up to the code by the time the novels end.
Oh, and Duncan the Tall / Dunk the Lunk would probably make a good paladin too.

Eddard was the ultimate Lawful Good ruler... the strict rule of the law, tempered by the gentle hand of compassion. His devotion for the Old Gods of the North also helps him qualify for Paladin status. (spoilers for those who have not read the books)


His downfall was to try to "do the right thing" regardless of practicality.
If he had followed Renly's suggestion to hold Cersei and the kids captive, he would have gotten the upper hand in the conflict, but he balked at the idea of holding children hostage.
And if he had fled to Dragonstone, instead of trying to face Cersei and the council, he would have survived, but he balked at the idea of running like a thief in the night.
Poor Eddard, too noble by far...


Now Jon is conciously trying to follow his fathers teachings, and he has tried to atone for the dishonorable things he has done.


But I'll wait to see how he fares as Lord Commander before I pronounce him as paladin. Paladins are supposed to be natural leaders who inspire their followers by example.


Brienne is trying to be a paladin, yet her lack of wisdom (she is hopelessly naive and hardheaded) is presently disqualifying her.

Finally, Ser Duncan the Tall is definitely not a paladin (at least at the time of The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword) because, although he definetely believes in the code of chivalry, his relationship with the divine is almost non-existant.

-

One paladin-like option in the Sword of Ice and Fire series that no one has mentioned is Lord Beric Dondarrion... The only one who fought for the common people of the Trident in the midst of war. He made more converts for Rhllor by example than Melisandre and Stannis by decree.

Although Im sure that being undead is probably a disqualifier for paladin status!

[Tengu]

Fiction- Ky Kiske from the Guilty Gear series.
Agreed.

Other good fictional paladin archetypes that haven't been mentioned yet are Carrot and Vimes from Discworld - the first one almost spotless, the second one slightly less, but still with both legs in lawful goodness and paladin's (or rather cop's) code.

[EvilElitest]

I think Hector from the Trojen War is a paladin. All he wants is to protect his people and have peace. True he also kill innocent people, so maybe not. He is better than achllies though.
I'd have to think about this.
from,
EE

[Edo]

My qualifications for paladins are: religiosity, courage, keen intellect, strong belief in justice, mercy towards the weak, destitute and abused, willingness to punish others and your self for evil acts no matter how much harm you your self suffer, wisdom as well as a certain sense of romanticism...Well, that simplifies things. So who's left from history?

Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib. Faith, courage, justice, mercy, integrity, wisdom, honor? He had all that and the longsword too.

(Imam Hussain too, almost definitely - but I'm not sure about the politics of the time, and if you seriously wanted to nitpick you could argue that the buildup to Karbala might have been a "chaotic act." Even so, probably Imam Hussain too.)

Chief Joseph. Why nobody's mentioned Chief Joseph already is beyond me.

And with those three, I've pretty much exhausted my list.

On a more obscure note, maybe Guru Gobind Singh? I'd be willing to, but my knowledge of Sikh military history is way too shallow to judge.

(On that note, Baba Deep Singh is an ARCHETYPAL Book of Nine Swords crusader. Judging by his grand finale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Deep_Singh#Martyrdom), a 15th-level one too. Yes, I've read the Calibration article thread (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html).)

[Duke Malagigi]

Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Joan of Arc
Roland
Malagigi
Galahad
Saladin
Major General Charles Gordon
Colonel T.E. Lawrence- True, Lawrence did slaughter an entire line of retreating Turkish solders, but that was one lapse (a lapse that almost caused him to leave the British army during the first World War).
Theodore Roosevelt- Just imagine a teetotaling paladin/ranger who drinks a gallon of coffee a day, hunts bears and other dangerous animals, enjoys taxidermy, boxing, reading the classics, target practice and rowing. Also with a strong ego, a desire to be the center of attention in all cases and a soft spot for children of all species. Once old T.R. spared the life of a bear cub during one of his hunting expeditions, after shooting the cub's mother. The bear cub was then sent to National Zoo afterward. This is the origin of the teddy bear. He was also highly religious and with a somewhat wry sense of humor.
General U.S. Grant- He never used a profane expletive in his entire lifetime. Not that he never used an explative, he just never used a profane one.
Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen- If you watch the Columbia Picture's film version you'll understand exactly why. His hobbies include drinking brandy, talking about his many romances with various women (including Cathrine the Great and the wife of the Man in the Moon), playing cards and romancing the likes of Venus, the Roman goddess of love.
General of the Army Douglas McArthur- At least he would have thought of himself as a paladin.
Captain James Tiberus Kirk- While he constantly violates the Prime Directive, his actions allways advance the goals of the Federation. If he happened to be more religious, well let's just say that Kirk would make a better paladin than Miko.
Don Quoxte
General George S. Patton
Chief Joseph

[Ethdred]

Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen- If you watch the Columbia Picture's film version you'll understand exactly why. His hobbies include drinking brandy, talking about his many romances with various women (including Cathrine the Great and the wife of the Man in the Moon), playing cards and romancing the likes of Venus, the Roman goddess of love.And this is your idea of paladinic behaviour?


Not sure that Horatius counts as a paladin, as opposed to just a hero (and why do his two mates never get any credit?). And many of the US examples here I think are very questionable - what did Grant do other than just not swear? There's plenty of maiden aunts who could claim that.

One important point of a paladin was that they were not the leader themselves, but rather a dedicated servant of a leader - so the Knights of the Round Table could qualify, but not Arthur, nor Charlemagne.

[Orrmundur]

Daredevil, obviously.

[Meschaelene]

I'd say William Marshall, Earl of Pembroke.

[Mike_G]

Oliver Cromwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell)strikes me as Paladin-like in his intentions, although he may well fit into the religious-crazy slot.


I call Shennanigans!

Cromwell's Ethnic Cleansing of my ancestors rules him out as Paladin. The massacre at Drogheda, and the sack of Wexford where every defender and member of the Catholic clergy, and a bunch of innocent civilians were put to the sword, after the pretty ones were raped by his virtuous Puritan followers, screams Blackguard.

My ancestors used him as a story to frighten children.

Maybe as much of a Paladin as Kore from "Goblins," but other than that, no freaking way.


As far as fictional examples, Lance Constabel (later Constable, Corporal and Captain) Carrot from Terry Pratchet's Guards books is a perfect Paladin.