[3.5] The Perfect Weapon for the otherwise non-combatant?

[A.A.King]

Reason for Asking
A mate of mine who also plays D&D told me there party could use an Arcane Caster (specifically a character who had Knowledge (Arcana) & Spellcraft) and since I had expressed annoyed about the fact that my party only gets to play once every month or once every 2 months he said he'd ask his DM if I could join. His DM I probably could but not in the near future since they are currently in a Dungeon. I immediately knew of a character I'd like to play (since I have spend too much into making characters), namely a bard. Now I know they aren't great arcane casters unless you go into Sublime Chord (which I'm not) but this guy will be great on the Knowledge front (and that was the main thing according to this mate of mine). This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349432-3-5-Manipulative-Bard-Help) is the character I had in mind. However, now that I might actually play this character, I'm starting to think about the versatility of the character. I'm wondering in which situations I'm able to contribute and re-thinking some of my probably overspecialised spell selection. My main worry is combat, how much will I be able to do in combat. Most of the time I'd be using Inspire Awe to de-buff the opponent, but since it is a mind-affecting fear effect there will be times when the enemy will have immunities which render my music useless. Since a bard doesn't have that many spells per day my instinct is, pick up a weapon and help by dealing a little bit of damage each round

The Question
What weapon should you pick up? And how much should you invest in this weapon? Unless I get some marvellous roles I'll probably dump strength to the point that something like a longsword is a bad idea. Assuming my strength is 8 and we start at level 7 I'd be looking at a to hit of only +4, which doesn't sound that good. I'd also probably look at an AC of 16, which makes melee sound like an ever worse idea. I don't have the feats available to get Weapon Finesse but I could buy a Feycraft Short Sword. However, that doesn't solve the AC problem nor does 1d4-1 damage per round sound that helpful. A light crossbow sounds like a decent idea damage wise (atleast when you compare 1d8 vs 1d4-1), but without the Precise Shot feat my to hit bonus would only be +5 (BAB) +2 (Dex) -4 = +3 when firing into melee. Good roles might up that Dexterity a little but it's not going to make a huge difference. This brought me to the conclusion that picking up a cheap simple weapon as back-up plan. So I either have to buy a more expensive weapon and/or armor to make up for it. Is that worth it? Assuming a starting wealth of 19,000 gp, how much of that should be invested into being better in combat when that's not your main thing? And what should you buy from it? Should you just buy a +1 Precision Light Crossbow for 8335 gp or something a bit more interesting/better/cheaper.

The tldr; summary
The question in general: How much of your wealth should you invest in a weapon when you are not combat focused and the weapon is your back-up combat plan to make it a decent back-up plan?
Specifically: What would you buy to help a 7th level Bard be useful in combat when he can't Inspire Awe, has no combat feats nor great combat stats? (For now assume stats: 8/14/12/16/8/18 and gold: 1900)

Important:
According to my mate the party is fairly low-op with so it's best to avoid things which are considered cheap/cheesy. So it's best to note (ab)use the "Item Requires Specifc X" to lower the cost of the item.

Side Note:
I don't know much about this party, and I haven't talk to the DM and I probably won't for a while so if you think that there isn't enough information then I'd also be interested in the opinion of the playground on the general question. Is there for example maybe another way items could help me be useful in combat, something I'm not seeing which relies very little on my own actual abilities.

This is the weapon I came up with before I decided it was best to ask the playground instead. I tried to use as little of the custom item rules from the DMG as possible, since I always here they are broken. This is just to illustrate what I mean with investing in a weapon that makes you better at combat. I know that people with more rule mastery then I do could probably improve upon the idea. Making it more times per day for a longer duration and yet still end-up having it be cheaper. I just tried to keep it simple.

Sword of the Piper:
+1 Swordcane with a Wand Chamber containing an Eternal Wand of Bite of the Wererat

Price Math, Source and Explanation
Masterwork Swordcane: 360 GP (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
I chose for a Swordcane instead of a regular rapier (assuming that Rapier Proficiency = Swordcane Proficiency) since a hidden weapon has a proper "I'm a Back-up" feel to it. I also find the image of somebody transforming after drawing a hidden weapon from his cane more pleasing than the image of somebody transforming after drawing a regular weapon. It also has aesthetic bonus points by having he handle of the cane be shaped like the head of a rat with glowing red eyes.

+1 Weapon Bonus: 2000 GP (Dungeon Master Guide)
Not entirely necessary, especially since it's only a back-up plan, but I felt that a +1 was worth it.

Wand Chamber: 100 GP (Dungeonscape)
The most important part of this weapon is the wand and having it in the weapon is more efficient and visually more pleasing (making it look like the ability is from the weapon instead of a wand)

Eternal wand of Bite of the Wererat: 10,900 gp (Magic Item Compendium)
Bite of the Wererat seems like the perfect spell to solve my combat problem. First of all it grants Weapon Finesse and a +6 to Dexterity solving the to-hit problem. Changing it from +4 to +10 (5 BAB, +2 normal Dex bonus and +3 extra DEX bonus). Next it solves the AC problem (10 + 4 (Chain Shirt) + 2 (DEX Bonus) by giving me a +3 natural armor bonus on top of the DEX bonus, changing my AC to (10 + 4 + 4 (Max Dex Bonus) + 3) = 21. And as icing on the cake it grants me a +2 to constitution for extra HP and an extra attack in the form of a Bite Attack. It also fits very well thematically, since the build already has a very strong Pied Piper feel. Even if it is only for 5 rounds twice a day, this spell feels perfect. In fact, had the wand been much cheaper or (even better) had the spell been on the Bard List I might not have brought this up.
I chose Eternal Wand over a normal wand because that way I don't have to worry about UMD checks. Going with a normal wand would lower the price (since I could use the Druid Version instead) but it would also have meant that every time I wanted to use it I'd have to first cast "Magic Savant" or simply risk failing to activate it until my UMD bonus reached +19 (and at level 7 it's only +14). Finally, a normal wand would eventually run out of charges. The Eternal Wand, although expensive, would last a life time. If I'd ever find a better finessable weapon than a simple +1 rapier all I'd have to do was augment it with a wand chamber and transfer the item.
Also, since rats are so thematically linked with bards thanks to the Pied Piper, I think I could justify using the "Item Requires Specific X" trick and limit it to Bards-Only. Lower the price by 30% to an already more affordable 7630 gp

Total:
Normal: 13,360
Bard only: 10,090

Obviously spending 10,090 of your wealth on two items (Wand and Sword should be seen as separate) just so that twice per day you can be competent in melee for 5 rounds is a horrible idea. Which is why I turned to the playground. I do however really like the idea of using Bite of the Wererat to be in melee combat so if anybody could improve upon the idea in such a way that I can present it to a DM who is probably not used to anyone doing extensive optimization (even if it is for a sub-optimal strategy) that would be great.

[ComaVision]

UMD + wand?

Even if you just spammed Summon Monster I as a weak mode of battlefield control it'd be something (and the mental image makes me laugh).

[Psyren]

You always get an adamantine dagger. Need to cut your way out of prison? Get swallowed? Scratch an arrow in the floor so the ranger can track you? Cut through a steel chain? You're covered.

[A.A.King]

UMD + wand?

Even if you just spammed Summon Monster I as a weak mode of battlefield control it'd be something (and the mental image makes me laugh).
As a Bard I wouldn't even have to use UMD for a wand of Summon Monster I, but it doesn't feel like a good combat strategy to just summon weak monsters every round until I run out of charges (which would be quick)


You always get an adamantine dagger. Need to cut your way out of prison? Get swallowed? Scratch an arrow in the floor so the ranger can track you? Cut through a steel chain? You're covered.
Sounds like a good tool out of combat, but it doesn't solve the problem of having nothing to do in combat.

[Extra Anchovies]

UMD + wand?

Even if you just spammed Summon Monster I as a weak mode of battlefield control it'd be something (and the mental image makes me laugh).

Makes me laugh too. Also has some pretty interesting applications due to its range; you can plop them down in ideal flanking positions, use bigger monsters to cut enemies into smaller groups (Summon Undead 3 or 4 lets you get two Large owlbear skeletons, which can easily divide an opposing force in two long enough for your allies to tear apart the now-outgunned enemies on your half of the wall, then do the same to the rest when the spell ends), or even throw around summoned monsters for noncombat purposes. Who needs to waste a Fly spell to ascend a smooth wall when you can just summon a monster with a climb/fly speed and have it affix a rope to the top?

I now want to make a character based around this concept.

ETA: you can buy wands with higher caster level for a somewhat higher price; Summon Monster I at CL2 would last about twice as long as at CL1 for not too much higher of a price.

[Fax Celestis]

A metamagic rod.

No, seriously.


Physical Description
Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds.

They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their sturdy construction.)

These sturdy items have AC 9, 10 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 27.

If you really want to get hilarious, give your metamagic rod a wand chamber.

[A.A.King]

A metamagic rod.

1) I'm not sure that all rods can be used as a mace/club, I'd figure only the ones that actually mention that they can be used as a club, can be used as a club. And I don't know any metamagic rods which say that they can also be used as a mace/club (unlike say, an Alertness Rob).

2) Even if I could use a metamagic rod as a club, that doesn't change the fact that I'd probably not be any use to the rest if it's just normal me with a club.

EDIT:


ETA: you can buy wands with higher caster level for a somewhat higher price; Summon Monster I at CL2 would last about twice as long as at CL1 for not too much higher of a price.
I thought the price of a wand was (750 * Level of the Spell * Caster Level) or half of that if you are crafting it yourself. So having a CL of 2 instead of 1 would double the price.

[Milodiah]

Honestly it sounds like you're doing a lot of optimization for a low-op campaign.

However, you're a bard, which IMO is more a combat character than a wizard which is what I came here assuming you were. I'd say having a pretty good weapon would be rather important for you, go right ahead.

[Extra Anchovies]

A metamagic rod.

No, seriously.



If you really want to get hilarious, give your metamagic rod a wand chamber.

And then take Wandstrike (Complete Arcane) to deliver the wand's spell as a touch attack!


1) I'm not sure that all rods can be used as a mace/club, I'd figure only the ones that actually mention that they can be used as a club, can be used as a club. And I don't know any metamagic rods which say that they can also be used as a mace/club (unlike say, an Alertness Rob).

2) Even if I could use a metamagic rod as a club, that doesn't change the fact that I'd probably not be any use to the rest if it's just normal me with a club.

The metamagic rods as listed in the DMG don't say anything about use as a mace, while others specifically say that they can be used as clubs/maces; however, it makes perfect sense both in-universe and in-rules to have one custom-crafted for use as a weapon.

[Fax Celestis]

And then take Wandstrike (Complete Arcane) to deliver the wand's spell as a touch attack!

I was thinking instead: put an eternal wand of flame blade in there for practically a lightsaber.

[Troacctid]

A whip would allow you to use Aid Another with a 15 ft reach.

[A.A.King]

Honestly it sounds like you're doing a lot of optimization for a low-op campaign.

However, you're a bard, which IMO is more a combat character than a wizard which is what I came here assuming you were. I'd say having a pretty good weapon would be rather important for you, go right ahead.

Well, a low-op Cleric/Druid is still a Cleric/Druid (both classes exist in this group). So I can use high-op and not be afraid I overshadow the full casters. I'm also not optimizing Inspire Courage, which greatly lowers a bards potential. Had I chosen to just go Dragonfire Inspiration or even normal Inspire Courage optimization, I would not have the problem of having nothing to do in combat. So I might do a lot of op, but it's not giving me an extremely high power level.


I was thinking instead: put an eternal wand of flame blade in there for practically a lightsaber.
But Flame Blade isn't an Arcane Spell, so it can't be used for an Eternal Wand without some shenanigans.

[Milodiah]

I'm fully for possessing a Rod of Whoopass, exclusively so you can say Rod of Whoopass.

[satcharna]

Personally I find myself rather fond of quarterstaves. You can smack people with them if you need to, and they're great for when you think something might be a trap and need something to poke at it with. You can also get somewhat more creative and use them for tasks such as barring doors or improvising a tent.
Rather mediocre for fighting, but nothing fits the theme of "non-combatant who needs to protect himself" better in my opinion.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You're not gonna accomplish much with a weapon even if you spend a lot of money on it, so i wouldn't bother.
The only things you should really invest there is a weapon with Warning, Defending, Spellstrike or similar defensive enhancements on it.

Instead use Nets and Lassos to hinder your enemies, throw around Tanglefoot Bags, get a few cheap wands of useful 1st level spells that don't need a high CL, stock up on all the annoying alchemical items you can find. Basically hinder your enemies with things that only need touch attacks or no roll at all.

Or you could spend a feat on Doomspeak (requires you to get Intimidate somehow).


I was thinking instead: put an eternal wand of flame blade in there for practically a lightsaber.
He's not going to do any noteworthy damage anyway, so he should at least go for Scimitar of Sand to fatigue/exhaust anything he hits.

[gorfnab]

Harmonizing (MIC) Crystal Echoblade (MIC) - if the PC doesn't use it as a weapon it will still boost bardic music

When in doubt the mighty shuriken (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0) can be a most useful option.

It's either Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel that has listings of weapons hidden in musical instruments.

[Fax Celestis]

But Flame Blade isn't an Arcane Spell, so it can't be used for an Eternal Wand without some shenanigans.

Scimitar of sand, then.

[A.A.King]

You're not gonna accomplish much with a weapon even if you spend a lot of money on it, so i wouldn't bother.
The only things you should really invest there is a weapon with Warning, Defending, Spellstrike or similar defensive enhancements on it.

Instead use Nets and Lassos to hinder your enemies, throw around Tanglefoot Bags, get a few cheap wands of useful 1st level spells that don't need a high CL, stock up on all the annoying alchemical items you can find. Basically hinder your enemies with things that only need touch attacks or no roll at all.

Or you could spend a feat on Doomspeak (requires you to get Intimidate somehow).
Any suggestions of for spells that are particularly good as wands?



He's not going to do any noteworthy damage anyway, so he should at least go for Scimitar of Sand to fatigue/exhaust anything he hits.


Scimitar of sand, then.
This is why I come to the Playground, Scimitar of Sand is a great spell to put in an Eternal wand. It has a better duration, solves my to-hit problem, solves my damage problem and has an extra little effect. It's also less than half the price of my idea (just slightly less thematic).


Harmonizing (MIC) Crystal Echoblade (MIC) - if the PC doesn't use it as a weapon it will still boost bardic music

When in doubt the mighty shuriken (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0) can be a most useful option.

It's either Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel that has listings of weapons hidden in musical instruments.

I thought about the Crystal Echoblade because the extra damage is very nice, but it doesn't solve my to-hit problem.

[Fax Celestis]

Any suggestions of for spells that are particularly good as wands?

Take a look at Nephele (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=5)'s stack of wands (seriously, she has a ridiculous amount).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Any suggestions of for spells that are particularly good as wands?


Snake's Swiftness (SpC), Instant of Power (FoW), Blockade (CS), Obscuring Mist (PHB), Ray of Enfeeblement (PHB), Ray of Clumsiness (SpC), Enlarge Person (PHB),
Benign Transposition (SpC), Nerveskitter (SpC), Shock and Awe (SpC), to name a few.

Snake's Swiftness and Enlarge Person will make you the melee's best friend. Instant of Power is a useful all-around helper spell. Blockade adds swift action BFC/Cover. The rays are mainly for the times you have nothing better to do (which shouldn't be often since your melee can probably always use another attack).

Those are all first level spells though. There's nothing wrong with mixing in a few higher level wands if you can afford it.

[Aliek]

I was about to suggest Thunderlance, but since it isn't a bard spell, if going the wand route things can get expensive very quickly. But if you actually get an eternal wand of thunderlance... It might be just the weapon you're looking for :smallbiggrin:

Either that or partially charged wands, for the moment you really need to fight.

[A.A.King]

Hmm, there are some pretty decent suggestions there. I'm for example pretty sure that the fighter would love somebody to cast Enlarge Person on him. This is definitely an option to consider.
Personally though I'd prefer a method which wouldn't require consumables, so if anyone else has any suggestions I'd love to hear.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Eternal Wands (MIC) cost 70gp more for a 1st level spell than standard wands, if you want to go that way. They universally need a standard action to activate though so they're not a good choice for swift/immediate action spells.

That said, 50 charges last a long time as long as you're not playing around with Metamagic Spell Trigger and/or Reckless Wand Wielder. Presumably you'll get at least some use out of your class abilities and won't be spamming them all the time.

[Milodiah]

Yeah, even if you were to take advantage of your ability to cast a spell once per round instead of once per however many times your level allows it, you'd still get in 50 straight rounds of spellcasting. And as we all know, your typical combat encounter falls into the single digits in terms of rounds, so that's at least ten battles' worth of spell in your hand right there. Especially if you...well, don't cast it every round from beginning to end, which isn't exactly standard magic SOP.

[Dread_Head]

Bow of Songs(MIC) could be useful for when you'll only be contributing damage in a few combats. Pretty hefty price tag though. Whip with Sudden Stunning(DMGII) would be my other go to suggestion but most mind affecting immune enemies (Undead, Plant, Construct, Ooze) are immune to stunning as well.

What's wrong with using spells in these cases? Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, etc are all still just as useful against mind-affecting immune enemies. I know Bards don't have lots of slots but you can afford to throw one spell out per combat (especially if you're using them in only a few combats when your normal strategy is worthless.) If you're worried about spells known or spell slots then Knowstones, Runestaves and Memento Magica exist to expand your list and get extra castings which will probably be more cost effective than purchasing a weapon.

[A.A.King]

Eternal Wands (MIC) cost 70gp more for a 1st level spell than standard wands, if you want to go that way. They universally need a standard action to activate though so they're not a good choice for swift/immediate action spells.

That said, 50 charges last a long time as long as you're not playing around with Metamagic Spell Trigger and/or Reckless Wand Wielder. Presumably you'll get at least some use out of your class abilities and won't be spamming them all the time.


Yeah, even if you were to take advantage of your ability to cast a spell once per round instead of once per however many times your level allows it, you'd still get in 50 straight rounds of spellcasting. And as we all know, your typical combat encounter falls into the single digits in terms of rounds, so that's at least ten battles' worth of spell in your hand right there. Especially if you...well, don't cast it every round from beginning to end, which isn't exactly standard magic SOP.

This is very true of course, but I'm just one of those people who find it very difficult to use consumables. :smalltongue:

EDIT:


What's wrong with using spells in these cases? Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, etc are all still just as useful against mind-affecting immune enemies. I know Bards don't have lots of slots but you can afford to throw one spell out per combat (especially if you're using them in only a few combats when your normal strategy is worthless.) If you're worried about spells known or spell slots then Knowstones, Runestaves and Memento Magica exist to expand your list and get extra castings which will probably be more cost effective than purchasing a weapon.
Since I'll be using the spells for non-combat stuff. Also, I wondered (/ am still wondering) by how much you can improve your combat skills using custom magic weapons (without abusing the rules).

[Milodiah]

I understand perfectly. Here's an idea: every time it crosses your mind to use it, you should probably use it, because you wouldn't have even thought about using it if it was completely unnecessary in the first place.

[Dread_Head]

EDIT:

Since I'll be using the spells for non-combat stuff. Also, I wondered (/ am still wondering) by how much you can improve your combat skills using custom magic weapons (without abusing the rules).

Ok, that's a fair enough reason. If you are purchasing in combat abilities then the items I listed are a way to get extra spells known and spell slots you could use for combat.

Oh and I like your idea of the Bite of the Wererat wand, it's one of my favourite spells and the pied piper fluff you've attached is cool, shame it's just a little too expensive for what it gives you.

Have you considered that you might just have to accept that your character won't contribute much in combat against Mind-Affecting immune enemies as you've focused on fear debuffing and out of combat ability so you might just have to accept mediocrity in this area? You can always resort to alchemical items and similar, tanglefoot bags should work pretty well against most mind affecting immune enemies even up to level 7.

[A.A.King]

Have you considered that you might just have to accept that your character won't contribute much in combat against Mind-Affecting immune enemies as you've focused on fear debuffing and out of combat ability so you might just have to accept mediocrity in this area? You can always resort to alchemical items and similar, tanglefoot bags should work pretty well against most mind affecting immune enemies even up to level 7.

I'm quite willing to accept mediocrity in that area, but I'd define mediocrity as atleast being able to contribute. I would say that my initial plan of "Shoot Light Crossbow once per round" doesn't really qualify as mediocrity.

[Keld Denar]

Have you ever read the spell Whirling Blade in both Complete Arcane and the Spell Compendium? You can make a melee attack against foes in a line using your Int or Cha instead of Str and your CL instead of BAB so it fixes your to-hit problem. It benefits from your IC, and any combat feats you may have like Power Attack. You can use it with any slashing weapon like the above mentioned Adamantine Dagger or Chrystal Echoblade. Get it with Spellstoring for extra punch. Get it with a Wand Chamber and put a Wand of Whirling Blade in it.

[Bronk]

I'll second the quarterstaff, the crystal echoblade, and add the bowstaff from the MIC and the ringblade from the Arms and Equipment Guide.

If possible, you could ask if you could add the 'ringblade' feature to the other weapons instead... it gives you access to a third ring while you wield the weapon.

The quarterstaff is good because it is treated as a double weapon... each end is treated and enchanted separately, so you can have two extra rings, two wand chambers, and two different sets of enchantments at each end, each starting at +1. So, you could one end be a +1 warning weapon, while the other side is a +1 eager weapon, for +6 to initiative.

The bowstaff is even better, because you would be able to enchant the bow part separately from the quarterstaff part, and have a whole extra set of possible enchantments, wand chambers, and so on.

[A.A.King]

Have you ever read the spell Whirling Blade in both Complete Arcane and the Spell Compendium? You can make a melee attack against foes in a line using your Int or Cha instead of Str and your CL instead of BAB so it fixes your to-hit problem. It benefits from your IC, and any combat feats you may have like Power Attack. You can use it with any slashing weapon like the above mentioned Adamantine Dagger or Chrystal Echoblade. Get it with Spellstoring for extra punch. Get it with a Wand Chamber and put a Wand of Whirling Blade in it.

That's also a very nice suggestion.


I'll second the quarterstaff, the crystal echoblade, and add the bowstaff from the MIC and the ringblade from the Arms and Equipment Guide.

If possible, you could ask if you could add the 'ringblade' feature to the other weapons instead... it gives you access to a third ring while you wield the weapon.

The quarterstaff is good because it is treated as a double weapon... each end is treated and enchanted separately, so you can have two extra rings, two wand chambers, and two different sets of enchantments at each end, each starting at +1. So, you could one end be a +1 warning weapon, while the other side is a +1 eager weapon, for +6 to initiative.

The bowstaff is even better, because you would be able to enchant the bow part separately from the quarterstaff part, and have a whole extra set of possible enchantments, wand chambers, and so on.

Those enchantments might be nice for the characters to have in general, I don't see how a quarterstaff which gives me +6 to initiative would help me perform in combatant when I lack combat skills.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Remember that ranged attacks also benefit from Inspire Courage.

An Elvencraft (RotW) bow, preferably a longbow if he's proficient. An elvencraft shortbow functions as a shortbow and a club, an elvencraft longbow functions as a longbow and a quarterstaff. You have to buy masterwork for each weapon portion (twice for the shortbow, three times for the longbow since a quarterstaff is a double weapon), and you should be able to get an equal number of wand chambers from Dungeonscape. As long as you're holding that you can activate a wand it contains as though you're also holding each wand. If you have UMD then the sky's the limit on what you can put in it. My favorite choices include Web, Command Undead, and Wings of Cover. You can also put an Eternal Wand (MIC) in that, anyone who can cast arcane spells can use an eternal wand regardless of what spell it contains. An Eternal Wand of Hound of Doom (CW) is one of my favorite things for a Bard.

If it's an elvencraft (composite) longbow you should take Ancestral Relic to make it a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4). This helps you get around the normal limit on spells known, and you can even put non-Bard spells in it and make a DC 21 UMD check each day when you attune to it to still cast those spells as though they were on your class spell list. Eventually you can even make the bow portion an Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). You can also add charges of spells to the staff portion as a magical staff, and keep in mind that since a held item doesn't occupy one of your limited body slots additional effects on it do not suffer a price markup. Its current value will decrease per charge spent, but when you can sacrifice non-loot items (statues, fountains, the BBEG's castle) to add their value to your relic, you end up getting everything you add to it for nearly free.

[A.A.King]

Remember that ranged attacks also benefit from Inspire Courage.


The problem is that the bard will be inspiring awe, not inspiring courage. The problem I'm trying to solve is "should I invest in a weapon which increases my combat abilities for those (hopefully) rare times that the enemy is immune to my Inspire Awe". (And the solution isn't "get Inspire Courage instead")

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The problem is that the bard will be inspiring awe, not inspiring courage. The problem I'm trying to solve is "should I invest in a weapon which increases my combat abilities for those (hopefully) rare times that the enemy is immune to my Inspire Awe". (And the solution isn't "get Inspire Courage instead")

I missed that part, regardless, the weapon I detailed is more for utility than attacking anyway. Put Sudden Stunning from DMG2 on whatever +1 melee weapon you would usually be armed with (spiked gauntlet) if you want to be making attacks. With an Inspire Awe build, you should probably be using Intimidate to demoralize (with Imperious Command) any opponents who get into melee with you. Get armor with the Fearsome property in Drow of the Underdark (it's a more recent version than MIC) and you can demoralize twice in a single round. Don't forget about the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This is very true of course, but I'm just one of those people who find it very difficult to use consumables. :smalltongue:


That's a pretty common problem. Lots of people are ridiculously stingy with any kind of limited resource, to the point where they won't use them at all.
The easiest solution is to just use them as if they were normal abilities that refresh daily. It will take a long time to run out, and by then you can easily afford new ones.

Even a single wand will probably last 25 or more encounters unless your party takes really long to defeat the enemies. A lot of those utility spells are things that you cast once per encounter.

[A.A.King]

I missed that part, regardless, the weapon I detailed is more for utility than attacking anyway. Put Sudden Stunning from DMG2 on whatever +1 melee weapon you would usually be armed with (spiked gauntlet) if you want to be making attacks. With an Inspire Awe build, you should probably be using Intimidate to demoralize (with Imperious Command) any opponents who get into melee with you. Get armor with the Fearsome property in Drow of the Underdark (it's a more recent version than MIC) and you can demoralize twice in a single round. Don't forget about the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

This build won't be demoralizing either. I'm just looking for weapons that improve upon a build with non-combat stats (str: 8, dex: 14, con: 12) and no feats (or skill tricks) to spare.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This build won't be demoralizing either. I'm just looking for weapons that improve upon a build with non-combat stats (str: 8, dex: 14, con: 12) and no feats (or skill tricks) to spare.

You can't really go wrong with a Spiked Gauntlet, you're always able to make AoOs even with your hands empty, can't be disarmed of it, you don't need to make a grapple check to draw it, and it can cut you out of being swallowed whole. If you come into some extra gold make it +1 Sudden Stunning for 4k, the DC scales even.

[NotScaryBats]

+1 Sudden Stunning Mighty (+3) Warning Whip Dagger (10,725 gp) nets you +5 initiative, and on a successful hit, you can Swift Action activate the whip to paralyze your target, the DC of which scales off your charisma.

[A.A.King]

Sudden Stunning is definitely a great enhancement for a Bard's weapon.

[Bronk]

Those enchantments might be nice for the characters to have in general, I don't see how a quarterstaff which gives me +6 to initiative would help me perform in combatant when I lack combat skills.

The idea is that you take weapon enchantments/enhancements that are useful when you aren't in direct combat. The initiative granting ones were just an example... it's usually better to act first in combat, whether you're going to attack something, buff a friend, or just run away. I may have misspoken before as well: 'Initiative' gives +2 luck bonus to initiative, 'warning' gives +5 to initiative, and 'eager' gives +2 to initiative. All bonuses from separate abilities, which would stack for a total of +9...

Some other examples:

Doomwarding (several effects, including making one reroll of anything per round)

Finder: +4 bonus to search underground

Flying (fly)

displacement (grants displacement while held)

jumping (also acts as 'ring of feather falling')

skillful (makes you competent with the weapon)

ethereal reaver (ghost touch plus 'see inviisble')

Passage (open short lived rift to the spirit world)

vanishing (appear and reappear elsewhere)

Ornate: +2 to diplomacy or intimidate checks

... and so on.


For a bow, you could also have 'dispelling' or 'superior dispelling' to debuff enemies, take out magical traps from a distance... whatever.

There is also a sidebar in Arms and Equipment Guide page 128 that gives some guidelines for adding feats to magic items...

[Aliek]

If you don't intend to actually hit stuff every combat I still say a thunderlance wand, if only because the thunderlance uses your CHA(or int) instead of str, with a few perks here and there, but mostly for using CHA.

And then there's the rule of cool - When you really need to fight, you draw a lance made of thunder and show them how it's done :smallamused:

If the plan is fighting on every combat instead of having a weapon as a precaution if you need to, disregard. This would get expensive very quickly.

[backwaterj]

Not precisely what you asked for, and it may be a few levels before you can afford it, but no weapon-oriented bard should be without Slippers of the Battledancer (DMGII). They not only let you sub in Charisma for attack and damage rolls if you move 10' or more, but also increase your movement, Tumble checks, and initiative. (you do need a token 5 ranks in Perform: Dance to make this work).

Given this, whatever light or one-handed weapon you feel like using becomes all of the sudden very decent in your hands.

[gooddragon1]

It seems like a +1 bow of force (force enhancement from Magic Item Compendium I think) is right up your alley. Not a whole lot of damage, but DR* is never a problem and nor is incorporeality. There's always problems like... swarms, oozes, and other stuff I might not know about that somehow mucks with damage in a way that isn't DR*. However, those things tend to not come up too often I suppose. Depends on the DM.

*Damage Reduction, the bane of low damage but multiple attack characters

EDIT: That's going to be 18k though. A slightly less expensive possibility is a +1 weapon with the psychokinetic enhancement (+1d4 damage that isn't subject to DR either). That's still 8000 gp though. I recall that there's a kind of weapon called a dragonbone bow (or maybe dragonbone is a material for weapons in general). The important part of this is that if I remember correctly it adds 1 point of energy damage (type dependent on the dragon it was made from). If you could get electricity (or acid would be better (sonic probably doesn't occur)) you could deal 1 point of damage through DR monsters as well as a little bonus amount against non-DR monsters. I think it's probably cheap too.

Another possibility (not cheap enough, not sure of the exact cost though) is the crystal echoblade mentioned previously. Adds 1/2 your bard level to damage as sonic damage (no DR and very infrequently resisted/immune).

[Bronk]

Another possibility (not cheap enough, not sure of the exact cost though) is the crystal echoblade mentioned previously. Adds 1/2 your bard level to damage as sonic damage (no DR and very infrequently resisted/immune).

True. If you ever actually decide to go into melee combat, I'd suggest using:

Crystal Echoblade (as previously stated, 1/2 bard level as additional sonic damage)

Have it enchanted as 'skillful', warning, harmonizing and magebane, a decent weapon crystal, and either fully enhanced to +5 or have magic weapon +5 permanancied onto it.

Get one with a wand chamber, and put a wand of true strike or nerve skitter in there.

Get those 'slippers of battledancing' previously mentioned, as well as the 'Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows' (Dragon 314) which add fire damage to melee attacks equal to your charisma bonus.

That could be a backup weapon...

[sleepyphoenixx]

True. If you ever actually decide to go into melee combat, I'd suggest using:

Crystal Echoblade (as previously stated, 1/2 bard level as additional sonic damage)

Have it enchanted as 'skillful', warning, harmonizing and magebane, a decent weapon crystal, and either fully enhanced to +5 or have magic weapon +5 permanancied onto it.

Get one with a wand chamber, and put a wand of true strike or nerve skitter in there.

Get those 'slippers of battledancing' previously mentioned, as well as the 'Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows' (Dragon 314) which add fire damage to melee attacks equal to your charisma bonus.

That could be a backup weapon...

Why in the world would you spend more than 1/4 of a level 20 characters WBL on a backup weapon? Or any melee weapon at all for a character with 8 Str, no Weapon Finesse and a build that does nothing whatsoever to improve melee capability? And throw more money after it for items that make your melee barely passable instead of nonexistent?

You can get decent combat capability for a fraction of the cost out of spell trigger items. If you don't like items with limited charges buy a crapload of eternal wands and a Runestaff with a few combat spells instead. That's what UMD is for.

[A.A.King]

You can get decent combat capability for a fraction of the cost out of spell trigger items. If you don't like items with limited charges buy a crapload of eternal wands and a Runestaff with a few combat spells instead. That's what UMD is for.

I'm starting to move more towards that point of view now too.

[Bronk]

Why in the world would you spend more than 1/4 of a level 20 characters WBL on a backup weapon? Or any melee weapon at all for a character with 8 Str, no Weapon Finesse and a build that does nothing whatsoever to improve melee capability? And throw more money after it for items that make your melee barely passable instead of nonexistent?

These are suggestions only, riffing on a previous post. I already offered some decent options for a 'weapon for someone who isn't fighting', an odd choice for a bard or anyone not a full spellcaster, and since I think it's pretty likely for any PC to be stuck alone sometimes, it's good to be prepared.

Remember, these are options only. You don't need to buy all of them, or all of them at once. Not all characters always have their full WBL available, after all.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

A sturdy walking stick or umbrella is just fine if you know how to use it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbuy9P3ielw

[Talionis]

Undersong (Spell Compendium) allows you to use Perform checks for concentration checks. Novice Ring of Diamond Mind can grant the Inciteful Strike Maneuver that allows you to do Damage equal to your Concentration check, which Undersong lets you replace with a Perform check. The damage scales with your level since you will be increasing your perform checks. You also can use the ring to get other maneuvers like the ounces that replace a save with a Concentration check, which again you can replace with a Perform check.

Greater Inciteful Strike is a level six maneuver, so you'd need two Diamond Mind Maneuvers known and two levels in an initiator to be able to grab it to do Double your Perform check in damage. But Inciteful strike can be gotten at level ten, by a non initiator. It has no prerequisites so it works. It's only good with one attack per encounter, but works once in each encounter. Novice ring is $3,000 gold.

But I guess I still didn't solve your question of what weapon to get I just gave you an option to add some much needed damage to a build and when you don't need the damage the same trick can replace your worst save with a perform check.

[backwaterj]

It wouldn't be a horrible idea to pick up at least one level of swordsage or warblade to access Insightful Strike. This allows you to refresh as a swift action (warblade) or full-round action (swordsage) if you need to use it again. Two levels (I believe) into swordsage also gives you Wisdom to AC in light armor, assuming there's a bonus there.

[paperarmor]

It wouldn't be a horrible idea to pick up at least one level of swordsage or warblade to access Insightful Strike. This allows you to refresh as a swift action (warblade) or full-round action (swordsage) if you need to use it again. Two levels (I believe) into swordsage also gives you Wisdom to AC in light armor, assuming there's a bonus there.

Ascetic Mage from CA will turn that into Cha to AC.

[backwaterj]

Ascetic Mage from CA will turn that into Cha to AC.

Assuming the DM is generous and equates the monk's Armor Bonus CF with the swordsage's. They really aren't the same since the one applies while wearing light armor and the other only unarmored.

Edit: You'd also need to pick up Improved Unarmed Strike. It's like even the sourcebook ninjas are from hates ninjas!

Charisma to AC can be accomplished without the fuss by taking a level of Battle Dancer (DrC) if allowed. Otherwise, there are several prestige classes that do it.