DM is trying to force an Animal Companion on my Druid

[Alex Star]

small size,
3d6 hd,
bite 1d6 + 2,
two claw attacks 1d4 + 2,
fly poor 20 feet, low light vision, immune to poison,
14 str 18 dex 11 con 3 int 10 wis 9 cha,
+ 8 natural bonus on hide, move silently and tumble

Should I take this? what if anything should I try to ask changed, or should I try to ditch this one entirely.

My druid is Level 5

[Segev]

Uh... just take a wolf or riding dog and add your druid level-based bonuses to it, and compare.

What do you mean he's "trying" to force it on you? He's the DM; if he wants to force it, he can, and your recourse is to walk away if you don't like it. But it looks pretty lousy. You'd have to compare it to other animal companions at your level before you'd be certain, but it looks weaker than that to which you're usually entitled.

[Sith_Happens]

How does it have d6 hit dice? All animals get d8's.:smallconfused:

[supersonic29]

Woah slow down, are you saying you have no companion and he wants you to have one? Are you saying he wants to replace your current companion?

I'd want to know more before speaking definitively, but it looks pretty good, I mean, 14 str on a small creature with all that stealth potential? And 3 attacks for a full attack too. For any animal companion the con does seem ludicrously low though, that animal would have like no HP.

[supersonic29]

How does it have d6 hit dice? All animals get d8's.:smallconfused:

I also thought this, but I overlooked it because I figured it must be a non-animal the DM is offering in place of an animal.

[A.A.King]

You should explain a bit more, like how is "forcing" it. Did he reject other Animals you wanted as a companion? Do you currently have an Animal Companion and did he introduce a new one for you (as if you found a new weapon)?

[Alex Star]

I am currently without animal companion and need to acquire a new one. This particular DM has a thing for homebrew stuff.

I'm not super familiar with power level on druids so long term I'm not sure what is/isn't good.

I suppose I should be more clear on "force". Much more of a "suggestion" which, as I said this DM has a thing for his own homebrew so I don't want to shoot down his suggestion without having some really good reasons.

[supersonic29]

I'd say if you can get the con bumped up a bit and the hit dice d8s like all animals are you could roll with it as a sneak attacker, not that it would get the extra damage, but it would get flat foot attacks. That's not to say it's optimal, but it would be okay, DM happy with it, unique, y'know.

Edit: If you had to drop a stat for the constitution boost it would be charisma, I don't know why any sneaky predator animal needs 9 charisma.

[eggynack]

Just working out of core, a dire bat seems significantly better. Not working out of core, the dire eagle from races of stone is even better than that in most conceivable ways. Of course, if you don't care about flight, then all bets are off, as fleshrakers enter the equation. I suppose that this creature does have some... features that grant advantages, but they just don't seem like features that are particularly worth the other drops in creature quality.

[Coidzor]

It has 3 attacks, a flight speed, and it is of non-Animal intelligence. That can allow for some tricks that an Animal just wouldn't be capable of performing.

For one thing, since it is a sophont, you could get away with it taking all kinds of different feats that people balk at Animals taking or Animals just can't take or make use of. And it's naturally sneaky, seems to want to flank(due to the Tumble), and can be doused liberally with poison for offensive use and even taught to use poisons itself(Master of Poisons feat, IIRC, allows it to poison 1 attack/round as a swift action)

Ok Str, good Dex, the Con leaves a lot to be desired, though, and Int 3 is still pretty low, especially since Animal Companions don't share skill ranks. Would be pretty damn good as an Urban Companion (like Familiar but without the ill effects if it dies and it has 3/4 instead of 1/2 the master's HP), but it's not going to have the raw physical power of a good AC.

What is this thing anyway? Fey? :smallconfused:

[Sartharina]

That Con is "1 Hit Point/Hit Die". OUCH!

[Coidzor]

That Con is "1 Hit Point/Hit Die". OUCH!

Should be Str 14, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 3, Wis Meh Will Save, and Cha I Didn't Bother Checking.

Still an undesirably low Constitution for an AC though, especially with a d6 HD...

[eggynack]

It has 3 attacks, a flight speed, and it is of non-Animal intelligence. That can allow for some tricks that an Animal just wouldn't be capable of performing.
I did not notice the non-animal intelligence. That's pretty weird. There's a bit of precedence for naturally non-animal animal companions, particularly the watchspider from waterdeep (Seriously, what the hell is up with that thing? Would you actually end up with a non-animal animal companion, or would it magically become an animal, or what?), but it's weird stuff nonetheless.

[DeAnno]

A lot of it isn't that great, but those skill bonuses are actually pretty sick. I would like it more if it had real darkvision and/or the fly speed wasn't so completely terrible. Can it even walk?

[Bronk]

I'd go for it, if just because your DM spent some time on it. Perhaps it'll have some plot armor!

It doesn't look very tough at first, but with flight and three attacks it's already better than a lot of low level choices. In fact, it sounds like it could be some kind of really big, smart tressym. There are plenty of druid spells and magic items that can improve and add to attacks. For example, you could get a 'fanged ring' or a 'monk's belt' and add lethal unarmed attacks to it's attack routines, or enchant them with a 'necklace of natural attacks'.

The best part is the high intelligence... usually you have to use a feat or get a special class feature to get an animal companion with better than animal intelligence (1 or 2). Not only does it make it easier to deal with, because normally by RAW you have to use handle animal to relate to your animal companion, but now you can directly coordinate what feats it will take. If it's of good alignment, you could ask it to take 'vow of poverty' so you don't have to equip it, or 'touch of golden ice' to enhance all of it's natural attacks... eventually the thing could take down dragons in one round.

If this thing, whatever it is, doesn't have a negative modifier to your druid level for use with animal companions, you'll already be able to bump it up two levels, and two more levels when you hit druid level six... so when you're level 6, it'll be level 7, and you'll be able to influence at least two of its feats.

[Alex Star]

So I spoke with my DM about a few of the concerns that people expressed here and this is what he returned with.

Bump the HD to d8's
+4 to CON
Added a Poison Bite Attack (Save Fort: 15) 1d4/1d4 Dex

I'm pleased with these changes. What do you all think?

[Oddman80]

Also - Both claw and bite attacks have been given a +2 strength modifier to the damage. given the strength stat - that means that somehow both claw and bite attacks have been designed as primary attacks and should then get the full BAB on full attacks (as opposed to normal where one attack would be primary and get full BAB, while all others would be secondary and get BAB-5, and only 1/2 strength mod for bonus damage). The fact that the companion has a 3 int means it cannot be an animal per RAW (and is more likely a Magical Beast)



...Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)...

Before agreeing to use the companion make sure that he is overriding this rule, and the creature is still an animal - OR - that he will still allow druid spells such as Speak with Animal, Animal Growth, Reduce Animal, Awaken and others where the target is described as "Animal" to still work on your companion.

Additionally, by having a 3 Int, your companion should be able to fully comprehend at least 1 language (if not actually speak it itself) - and skills training through 'handle animal' should be of little necessity, as a result. You should be able to just tell it to do something - and as long as you have a healthy bond with it and haven't given it reason to doubt you - it should follow your instructions.

[Segev]

It sounds like he's willing to work with you on it and wants it to be effective, so I'd agree to take it. Do ask about the "does it count as an animal for my druid spells?" thing, as that's important, but I suspect he probably will unless he explicitly was trying to shut those out.

[Bronk]

Bump the HD to d8's
+4 to CON
Added a Poison Bite Attack (Save Fort: 15) 1d4/1d4 Dex


Well, since he added a bunch of stuff and didn't take anything away, it looks like a win/win. The poison is going to be crazy... remember that the save DC for special abilities like poison, per the Rules Compendium, is 10+ 1/2 HD + Con modifier, so this thing, whatever it is, should start off with a DC of 14, and raise up as it gains Con and Hit Dice from your druid level.

Also note that at level 5 you might have access to the level 3 druid spell 'venomfire', which adds 1d6 acid damage to poison attacks per caster level, for one hour per level, and your caster level is already 5.

All things considered, yeah, this is pretty good for you!

By the way, and just out of curiosity, has your DM told you what this thing looks like?

[VoxRationis]

Keep in mind that if it doesn't work, you can just get a new one tomorrow. Indulge your DM.

[Coidzor]

With a poison bite attack and intelligence it can, either on its own or with help, milk itself during downtime for a decent Dex Poison which it can then use to poison its claws & some form of weapon, possibly armor spikes, when you know you're going into a fight for 3-4 poison attacks as a Dex-targeted nova. And any potential poison-users are going to love having a source of poison in the party.

Dex poisons are quite nice for attempting to subdue something non-lethally too, since it makes creatures much easier to hit and combined with nets and lassos can drop most things that aren't super Dextrous/Agile in relatively short order, though it does have the disadvantage of not working in synergy with non-lethal damage. Doublecheck how the DM's playing alignment and using poison, though.

One thing to keep in mind is whether it can benefit from spells for animals and animal companions considering its increased intelligence and presumably altered Type. If it's not an Animal and doesn't count as one for your spells and abilities, then you lose a fair bit, but not all, of your ability to buff it beyond Share Spells. Forgot to mention that earlier.

Due to the increased Intelligence, I didn't state it directly, but it should be capable of understanding a greater range of orders without having to use Handle Animal all of the time due to understanding a language. You should probably try to make sure that the language it understands is one you speak. Double check on whether that's how the DM's rolling with it, though, as PF did put out rules text so that ACs with Int 3+ still had to have Handle Animal used on them to communicate the PC's desire.

What's this critter called, anyway?

[supersonic29]

So I spoke with my DM about a few of the concerns that people expressed here and this is what he returned with.

Bump the HD to d8's
+4 to CON
Added a Poison Bite Attack (Save Fort: 15) 1d4/1d4 Dex

I'm pleased with these changes. What do you all think?

I think you just jumped from generally acceptable to fairly exploitable, I'd go with it and take some of the advice people offered about it being allowed feats n stuff, like pounce maybe?

[Oddman80]

I think you just jumped from generally acceptable to fairly exploitable, I'd go with it and take some of the advice people offered about it being allowed feats n stuff, like pounce maybe?

When did Pounce become a feat? I thought is was just an inherent creature EX ability or a potential Barbarian Alternative Class Feature

[Bronk]

When did Pounce become a feat? I thought is was just an inherent creature EX ability or a potential Barbarian Alternative Class Feature

Well, before I thought this creature was like a big tressym, but now it sounds like a small, winged, venomous tiger, so maybe the DM will put pounce on next.

I suggest asking more questions... that might be the next power to be added!

[Coidzor]

Examples of feats an intelligent animal companion type could take:

Bind Vestige > Improved Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder can get 2 powers from vestiges of up to 3rd level. IIRC, even just Bind Vestige can get the creature either a Ram or a Gore horn attack, and extra natural attacks are always good.

Improved Unarmed Strike (+ Simple Weapon Proficiency) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Gain Iteratives from BAB, even Reach if something like Spiked Chain is picked. Even tastier with groups that use Weapon Group Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm).

Shape Soulmeld > Open Least Chakra > Open Lesser Chakra + Essentia granting feats - A fairly varied number of things. Dread Caparace + Essentia gives a lesser version of Power Attack for natural weapons that gives 2 for 1 returns with Bite attacks, for instance. Thunderstep Boots can give some extra bonus damage on a charge which can be especially nice with Pounce. A Dragon Magazine soulmeld Chaos Roc Mantle(IIRC) grants 2 wing buffets with reach that deal nonlethal just from shaping and then with binding them to shoulders that makes them deal lethal damage, though that is two natural attacks for 3 feats.

Mourning Mutate > Bestial Hide or Inhuman Reach some other [Aberrant] Feat > Deepspawn is another 3 feat chain for 2 tentacle natural weapons. Throw on Waterspawn along with that and you'd have 2 tentacles, a swim speed + Cold resistance, and either +2 Natural Armor or +5' Reach along with a minor bonus from Mourning Mutate. Aberration Blood is normally required, but is humanoid only and Mourning Mutate is a work-around but is rather Eberron specific, so there's that drawback.

Hidden Talent - Gives a level 1 Psionic Power & some power points that can then be used to power some other psionic feats.

The Psionic Host feats from Complete Psionic - for 2 feats you can get a 2 uses of a scaling psi-like ability per day, which can come in handy for the odd ranged blast with the Antagonist(?) [Host] Feat. And arguably with things like Expanded Knowledge and a pool of power points such as from Hidden Talent can allow 1/2 or even 1/2+4(due to Practiced Manifester) progression as a manifester. Though that requires a fairly specific reading. Even without it, 2/day psi-like blasts isn't too shabby as a trick up your companion's sleeve, though part of that does depend upon how its HD scale along with yours.

Sacred Vow > Vow of Poverty (if Good Aligned and BoED is on the table or can be brought in to some extent) - gives scaling bonuses to AC & Saves and such as well as bonus Exalted Feats such as Touch of Golden Ice(Dealing more Dex damage(on a failed save) each time they touch or use a natural weapon on Evil creatures? WHEE!) and helps save your Druid money that would otherwise need to be spent on equipping your companion.


When did Pounce become a feat? I thought is was just an inherent creature EX ability or a potential Barbarian Alternative Class Feature

There's a couple feats that give it with light weapons only and some Incarnum fun stuff with shape soulmeld and open chakra that can get pounce, too, but that's more... 2 or 3 feats depending if it's the hands chakra or arms chakra.