Why is Wish often brought up when it comes to the power of 9th level spells?

[Zanos]

I'm referring to actually casting it and paying the experience cost. I still frequently see it being referred to as being exceptionally powerful outside of situations where the experience cost is being mitigated, and honestly I can't see it's effects being worth 5,000 experience points. The only time I can see the cost being justified is to use the transportation effect to leave a very bad situation.

[Owl Prowler]

Wish is a one-cast spell that can break the game quite easily. Of course, very few DMs actually allow it to break the game, but that doesn't change the fact that, by RAW, you can kickstart a number of ridiculous combos with it. This is usually used in core as an example of how poorly designed the classes are- while a level 20 fighter is hitting things better with a sword, the Wizard is starting infinite Efreet chains.

In an actual game you're right, Wish isn't that great. It offers versatility for Sorcerers and the like, who can use it during down time to gain access to lower level utility spells that they probably don't have on their spell list (like many divination.) It's more powerful uses can be handy when the party is facing a possible TPK, but at high levels you really shouldn't be in danger of those anyways.

[Flickerdart]

The 5000XP cost isn't that significant - a level 17 party gains 1275XP from a single fight with a CR-appropriate foe. So basically you're using up a day's worth of XP on the casting. It's very likely that an encounter that demands the use of wish to solve will not be CR-appropriate, though, so you might actually be looking at a situation where you get more XP for winning a super tough encounter with wish than you spend on it.

[Extra Anchovies]

In an actual game you're right, Wish isn't that great. It offers versatility for Sorcerers and the like, who can use it during down time to gain access to lower level utility spells that they probably don't have on their spell list (like many divination.)

Because bleeding XP 5,000 points at a time is exactly what downtime is for :smallbiggrin:
Miracle is more of a game-breaker, IMO; the XP-costing uses of the spell are open-ended enough that they can do anything a Wish can, and Miracle doesn't cost XP to replicate a spell or reverse permanent conditions. Lets Clerics access arcane spells, and divine spells not on their list.

[Psyren]

and honestly I can't see it's effects being worth 5,000 experience points.

Not counting magic items, it can deliver you 25,000 gp worth of mundane wealth. So, actually yes, it is worth at least 5000 XP. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

The way I see it, it's a lot like you've said, a crazy and costly escape button, except it applies to more than just that one use. Wish is a spell that has massive and insane applications in most situations, and while it's not a tool that you like to use, it's a tool that you're glad to have when the time comes. At the same time though, I think a lot of the wish talk does come from that actual game breaking wish looping mindset, so that explains at least some of the talk around the spell.

[Owl Prowler]

Because bleeding XP 5,000 points at a time is exactly what downtime is for :smallbiggrin:
Miracle is more of a game-breaker, IMO; the XP-costing uses of the spell are open-ended enough that they can do anything a Wish can, and Miracle doesn't cost XP to replicate a spell or reverse permanent conditions. Lets Clerics access arcane spells, and divine spells not on their list.

You're right actually- I was thinking of Miracle when I said that. I forgot that Wish had an XP requirement no matter what it was used for.

So to amend my previous answer, I really don't consider it good for anything other than demonstrating caster superiority, which can be done in a number of more interesting ways in any case.

[Zanos]

The 5000XP cost isn't that significant - a level 17 party gains 1275XP from a single fight with a CR-appropriate foe. So basically you're using up a day's worth of XP on the casting. It's very likely that an encounter that demands the use of wish to solve will not be CR-appropriate, though, so you might actually be looking at a situation where you get more XP for winning a super tough encounter with wish than you spend on it.
So yeah, it's useful in emergencies where you really need that one spell you didn't prepare and can't get with Limited Wish. I don't think the experience reward of the encounter is that relevant since you're still behind the party by 5,000 XP, which is primarily what matters. It's really not on the same level as Shapechange or Timestop, even if you cut out the more abusive uses of Shapechange.


Because bleeding XP 5,000 points at a time is exactly what downtime is for :smallbiggrin:
Miracle is more of a game-breaker, IMO; the XP-costing uses of the spell are open-ended enough that they can do anything a Wish can, and Miracle doesn't cost XP to replicate a spell or reverse permanent conditions. Lets Clerics access arcane spells, and divine spells not on their list.
Yeah, Miracle is basically Wish+ and I kind of wonder what they were thinking when they designed it.


Not counting magic items, it can deliver you 25,000 gp worth of mundane wealth. So, actually yes, it is worth at least 5000 XP. :smalltongue:
If you want to spend experience on items you can probably find a way to temporarily acquire a crafting feat and get a 1:12.5 XP:Gold ratio that way. You're already a full caster and blowing experience on gold seems like a terrible idea to me. Even without that I doubt many players would sell experience at a 1:5 ratio.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, Miracle is basically Wish+ and I kind of wonder what they were thinking when they designed it.

It states in the spell description that the greater (XP-costing) uses have to be in line with the patron deity's mindset and alignment, so that's a slight restriction, but still not much.

[Psyren]

It states in the spell description that the greater (XP-costing) uses have to be in line with the patron deity's mindset and alignment, so that's a slight restriction, but still not much.

Miracle is a request. No matter what you ask for, the answer can be "no." Even if it's in line with the deity's ethos, they could easily refuse to teach you a lesson - and metagame-wise, the DM could refuse to say "no, you can solve this problem without a sledgehammer, take a second and think about it." The deity could even use the power of the miracle to give you back that spell slot and keep you from wasting it.

That's why Miracle is more powerful but also why it's better for both sides of the table.



If you want to spend experience on items you can probably find a way to temporarily acquire a crafting feat and get a 1:12.5 XP:Gold ratio that way. You're already a full caster and blowing experience on gold seems like a terrible idea to me. Even without that I doubt many players would sell experience at a 1:5 ratio.

Crafting that way has many disadvantages - the feat you mentioned, and the time cost as well. So the greater monetary return is an illusion because it's actually offset by those drawbacks. Thus I stand by my original statement.

[Milodiah]

It's a lot easier to live with Wish when there simply aren't Efreeti in your setting :smalltongue:

[icefractal]

Aside from the NI-loop purposes, which shouldn't actually be used but do loom large in the discussion, there are a few cases for Wish where it's worth it:

1) Emergency save-your-ass button. Sometimes you just need a certain obscure spell right this second, and Wish will do that. The cost is pretty cheap compared to a TPK.

2) Ignoring material components. Obviously useful with Simulacrum, but good for a number of other spells as well. If the component is hard enough to get, 5K xp can be worth it.

3) Transport. It works despite anything. In a high-op environment, facing high-op foes, this is a necessity and easily worth the cost. The enemy Wizard has a demiplane that's set up as impossible to enter, and is Astrally Projecting out of it to mess with you. Normally, you'd pretty much be screwed, but Wish will tell those planar properties to **** off and get you in there to kick some ass.

[Svata]

It's a lot easier to live with Wish when there simply aren't Efreeti in your setting :smalltongue:

Solar army says hi.

[Ravens_cry]

It states in the spell description that the greater (XP-costing) uses have to be in line with the patron deity's mindset and alignment, so that's a slight restriction, but still not much.
Very DM and world dependent. Hmm, here's question, can clerics that don't receive their pells from a patron deity use miracle?

[Segev]

Hmm, here's question, can clerics that don't receive their pells from a patron deity use miracle?

The default (and therefore assumed in most RAW for other things related to it) is that clerics of concepts who don't worship particular deities still get their spells from gods; they tend to get them from several different gods who share interest in that concept. Some may be aware of which from which gods their various spells come; others may be oblivious to the fact that gods are really helping them and think it's some "cosmic connection," but the standard assumption is that there are really gods behind it.

Which is to say, yes, clerics of concepts can cast Miracle; one of the gods interested in their concept grants it for them. (Their limitation, then, would be that their Miracles can only act within their concept. Gods who might share interest in the concept and might grant a Miracle that does something outside the concept are not paying attention to the cleric of a concept except when he's acting within that concept; he's not a devout worshipper, so much as a mortal pawn/ally, and if their mutual interests aren't being served, they're not even paying enough attention to know that their pawn is asking for something outside his purview.)

[Andezzar]

It's a lot easier to live with Wish when there simply aren't Efreeti in your setting :smalltongue:Use Shapechange instead. You get SU Wishes for free.

[Anlashok]

the standard assumption is that there are really gods behind it.

Are you sure? I thought the whole point of it was that it was a way to get divine powers without the gods being involved at all ( hence it being Sertrous' schtick).

[Melcar]

Considering that it has endless versitility makes it pretty good. You can momentarilly alter reality so as to benefit. I especially like the fact, that wish can produce any magic item, with no limitations to its power. A ring of +20 attack, daflection AC, Resistance, all ability scores, +10 exstra spells per level, that works as rod of unlimited meta-magic, which give immunity to Fire, cold, sonic, acid, electricity, disintegration, divination, death effects, ability drain and damage, that has continues foresigt, that give SR 100. No problemmo!

That would be a costly item in xp, unless you cast it as a supernatural ability, which aint that hard to do.

[SiuiS]

I'm referring to actually casting it and paying the experience cost. I still frequently see it being referred to as being exceptionally powerful outside of situations where the experience cost is being mitigated, and honestly I can't see it's effects being worth 5,000 experience points. The only time I can see the cost being justified is to use the transportation effect to leave a very bad situation.

Wish is a huge game changer. Making magic items which take the XP burden for you is easy, almost free, and you go from "I'm casting a really big spell to do damage or teleport" to "i accomplish any one thing, period". I've had entire campaigns shift by wishing the round didn't turn out like it did, reviving an entire friendly army from a one-round ambush massacre.

Ambrosia, distilled pain, and feat shenanigans get you free XP that can only be used to power magic items... But this includes making a staff of wishing and paying the entire XP cost with someone else's experience.

And when you are winning a 20th level encounter with a 5k expenditure you're making the right choice.

[Andezzar]

Considering that it has endless versitility makes it pretty good. You can momentarilly alter reality so as to benefit. I especially like the fact, that wish can produce any magic item, with no limitations to its power. A ring of +20 attack, daflection AC, Resistance, all ability scores, +10 exstra spells per level, that works as rod of unlimited meta-magic, which give immunity to Fire, cold, sonic, acid, electricity, disintegration, divination, death effects, ability drain and damage, that has continues foresigt, that give SR 100. No problemmo!

That would be a costly item in xp, unless you cast it as a supernatural ability, which aint that hard to do.I'm pretty sure the guidelines would put such an item pretty far into epic magic item territory. Wish does not allow the creation of such items without bad things happening.

[AuraTwilight]

Actually, the Wish spell doesn't really specify non-Epic Magic Items as safe. As long as you can pay all the costs as normal, it should be fine.

[Melcar]

I'm pretty sure the guidelines would put such an item pretty far into epic magic item territory. Wish does not allow the creation of such items without bad things happening.

You can create epic items fine. You cannot however create artifacts.

[Psyren]

Wish is a huge game changer. Making magic items which take the XP burden for you is easy, almost free, and you go from "I'm casting a really big spell to do damage or teleport" to "i accomplish any one thing, period". I've had entire campaigns shift by wishing the round didn't turn out like it did, reviving an entire friendly army from a one-round ambush massacre.

Ambrosia, distilled pain, and feat shenanigans get you free XP that can only be used to power magic items... But this includes making a staff of wishing and paying the entire XP cost with someone else's experience.

And when you are winning a 20th level encounter with a 5k expenditure you're making the right choice.

Indeed - putting aside the 1:5 ratio, simply not dying when the stakes are that high is worth the price of admission in and of itself.

[Gemini476]

You can create epic items fine. You cannot however create artifacts.
This gets a bit confusing when you factor in Create Artifact, which doesn't actually allow you to make artifacts but does allow you to make epic magic items.

[Segev]

Are you sure? I thought the whole point of it was that it was a way to get divine powers without the gods being involved at all ( hence it being Sertrous' schtick).

The point was to make it so that clerics didn't have to pick a god and shoehorn their concept into a particular god's philosophy. The conceit is still that each spell comes from a god, it's just not always the same god and the gods in question are answering prayers semi-anonymously based on the prayers being within their purview and the cleric's faith in that part of the purview being strong enough to get the prayer through.

It's possible to decide that they just get the spells "from their faith" or something, and mechanically it works. It does raise questions as to the difference between divine and arcane magic at that point, though. But that's fluff/philosophical, not mechanical.

[Snails]

Solar army says hi.

There are some creatures that should not exist in a campaign unless the DM has a good feel for how they fit into the BIG PICTURE.

Solars, Balors, Pit Fiends, Efreet, Djinn are the obvious examples, for the simple reason that these specific creatures by tradition represent a "slice of divinity" congealed into anthropomorphic form.

They exist in the MM for the DM has an example of what such a thing might look like, if they care to introduce such a thing. Putting them in a vending machine for the PCs to buy when they have collected the right tokens is a dubious choice, even without the theoretical exploits.

[Snails]

I'm referring to actually casting it and paying the experience cost. I still frequently see it being referred to as being exceptionally powerful outside of situations where the experience cost is being mitigated, and honestly I can't see it's effects being worth 5,000 experience points. The only time I can see the cost being justified is to use the transportation effect to leave a very bad situation.

To answer the OP, if spending 5,000 xp saves one single PC from losing 17,000 xp from dying, you are doing pretty well. It is not hard to imagine scenarios where the flexibility of this spell wins the day, even with a DM that is stingy when adjudicating the effect.

[Arbane]

What happens if an Ur-Priest casts Miracle?

[AuraTwilight]

Well, he literally stole a miracle so I guess he gets it.

[Andezzar]

Well, he literally stole a miracle so I guess he gets it.He might have stolen the ability to cast miracle, but the spell still has all the usual restrictions. Since the caster of the spell is asking a deity to intercede on his behalf, the DM can always say no. Whether deities are less inclined to grant the requests of Ur-Priests or if they even know that the spell has been stolen and the request comes from an unauthorized source is up to the individual DM.


You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

[lord_khaine]

The point was to make it so that clerics didn't have to pick a god and shoehorn their concept into a particular god's philosophy. The conceit is still that each spell comes from a god, it's just not always the same god and the gods in question are answering prayers semi-anonymously based on the prayers being within their purview and the cleric's faith in that part of the purview being strong enough to get the prayer through.


No, thats not how the default setting are, there are nothing in the rules stating that godless clerics get any of their spells from a god.
Suposedly they are drawing their magic from a more abstract source.

[AnonymousPepper]

Wish *can* theoretically do literally anything, by the rules - its power is only limited by the DM's willingness to let you smash his game, and the imagination of its caster. It can even get around restrictions that would normally stop it from working; for example, ordinarily, somebody protected by Elminster's Effulgent Epuration is immune to any magic cast at him, including Wish - its specifies that only deity-level magic can punch through it. Area spells, of course, ignore this rule - basically exclusively to allow Disjunction to work on it. So, one could Wish for a person with that spell protecting them to just die, by way of an AoE insta-death no-save (taking care to specify that it is not a [Death] effect and therefore not blocked by Soulfire armor). For example. Another example is that only Wish has the "regardless of local conditions" bit written explicitly into its powers as an example of what it can do - which, as anybody familiar with the Tippyverse knows, does almost as much as the Teleport Circle itself to render the world completely unrecognizable (without that being a thing, a single Wish trap spewing out Weirdstones would be sufficient to rather easily protect an empire).

In a completely RAW game, Wish has no restrictions on what it can do, only a vague suggestion that extreme Wishes may have consequences. At least Miracle gives an in-the-rules reason to flat-out deny an effect. "The god says no" is a perfectly valid, RAW viable answer. Wish, on the other hand, is "Your effect of choice happens. I get a PHB-issued DM-usable 'SCREW YOU!' button if it's outside of the specifically enumerated powers, but it only works after the effect takes place."

[strangebloke]

the problem has nothing to do with the way it is used in game. The problem has to do with how it is usable in RAW.

You can get it as a supernatural ability via shapechange or something, and cast it for free. You can solve virtually any problem like this, and can even summon more creatures to wish for you. Obviously, that's a problem with shapechange as well, but the point stands that Wish is impossibly versatile.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wish is something that any arcane caster with access to 9th level spells should always have at least one of prepared/known. Most of the time it will be an unused spell slot but the rest of the time it will solve an otherwise insoluble problem.

First you have the Transport Traveler's clause, if you can cast spells at the time than you can instantly move yourself to anywhere on any plane in any multiverse. Want to travel to Sharn from Waterdeep? Then just cast Wish and you are there. It's a means of escape, tracking (Wish to be next to some other individual), getting through otherwise impassible barriers, etc.

Then you have the fact that it is any spell that you can cast of 8th level or lower cast as a standard action (and effectively heightened to 9th level) without any somatic or focus components (and without any material component that costs less than 10,000 GP). Need to know what an enemy (or anyone else) is thinking or knows? Then duplicate Simulacrum and in 6 seconds you have an utterly loyal and obedient copy of the individual with half its power and all of its knowledge. That is just one of a laundry list of ways that Wish can quickly deal with otherwise impossible (or at least very difficult) to solve problems.

Throw in the party wide full heals, ability to revive the dead (if no other option is viable), and to force rerolls.

Did your melee character roll a natural 1 last turn, resulting in the enemy getting another turn of actions and doing something really bad? Well you can use Wish to make him reroll. Retroactively rewriting reality (up to your last turn) is incredibly powerful.

[Coidzor]

Not counting magic items, it can deliver you 25,000 gp worth of mundane wealth. So, actually yes, it is worth at least 5000 XP. :smalltongue:

When used in that way, yes. When not used in that way? Ehhh... Depends.

[Psyren]

When used in that way, yes. When not used in that way? Ehhh... Depends.

The question "Is X worth Y" assumes that I am trying to maximize the value I get from X when making the comparison. You could easily Wish for a torch, or a pencil, or something else similarly lacking in monetary value and receive it with no problems; that doesn't mean Wish itself is worthless, it merely means you are not using it to its potential.

[Andezzar]

Depending on the situation even an item of little monetary worth might be crucial for survival.

[Zrak]

A horse, a horse! 5000 XP for a horse!

[Psyren]

Depending on the situation even an item of little monetary worth might be crucial for survival.

In which case the worth of such an item would be "priceless/your life" and thus Wish would still be very much worthwhile by definition.

[Phelix-Mu]

There are some creatures that should not exist in a campaign unless the DM has a good feel for how they fit into the BIG PICTURE.

Solars, Balors, Pit Fiends, Efreet, Djinn are the obvious examples, for the simple reason that these specific creatures by tradition represent a "slice of divinity" congealed into anthropomorphic form.

They exist in the MM for the DM has an example of what such a thing might look like, if they care to introduce such a thing. Putting them in a vending machine for the PCs to buy when they have collected the right tokens is a dubious choice, even without the theoretical exploits.

This is a slice of wisdom. Won't stop TO shenanigans, but something any novice DM should keep in mind.

[Coidzor]

The question "Is X worth Y" assumes that I am trying to maximize the value I get from X when making the comparison. You could easily Wish for a torch, or a pencil, or something else similarly lacking in monetary value and receive it with no problems; that doesn't mean Wish itself is worthless, it merely means you are not using it to its potential.

:smallconfused: When did I say that Wish is worthless, Psyren?

I'm of the position that Wish shouldn't cost 5000 XP unless it's actually doing something worth 5000 XP, and we've both agreed that 1 XP:5 GP is a fairly established precedent in the rule.

Your post here doesn't really address me or my position, unless you're really arguing that a torch can be worth 5000 XP.


Depending on the situation even an item of little monetary worth might be crucial for survival.

Extortion of the desperate is generally a poor measure of general value, though. The main exceptions that come to mind being places where the thing is only really desired by the desperate.

[Psyren]

I'm of the position that Wish shouldn't cost 5000 XP unless it's actually doing something worth 5000 XP, and we've both agreed that 1 XP:5 GP is a fairly established precedent in the rule.

The whole point of it is that you shouldn't use it unless you are doing something with it worth 5000 XP. It costs that much regardless of use, because it lacks the Miracle option of the DM simply saying no if you are bringing a sledgehammer to a problem that only needs a light tap. The purpose is to discourage you from spamming it on frivolities.


Your post here doesn't really address me or my position, unless you're really arguing that a torch can be worth 5000 XP.

This is actually the point Andezzar raised. If that torch is exactly what you need to save your life, then yes, a torch can be worth 5000 XP because dying and losing a level (or not being raised at all) is worth far more.


Extortion of the desperate is generally a poor measure of general value, though.

How is it "extortion?" You're paying for something you need, or think you need, and the price makes sure you are only willing to pay when necessary. Do you consider every transaction to be extortion?

[Segev]

Wish alters reality. It costs 5000 exp to achieve its effects. You're right; effects that are not worth 5000 exp should cost less: you don't use wish to achieve them. You use lesser spells, which have lesser costs. If you have no means at this moment to achieve the effect other than via making a wish, then you either choose not to do it right now, or you actually do think that whatever it is is so crucial that you need to alter reality at the personal cost of 5000 exp in order to do it.

A wish is essentially a machine that uses so much fuel to perform its functions. Whether you use it for something spectacular or something frivolous, it still burns its fuel.

If you wish to anthropomorphize it, you can think of it as a highly skilled expert. He will do nearly anything if you meet his price. His price doesn't change just because you want to hire him to make you a grilled cheese sandwich instead of to transport the dragon's hoard to your own tower.

(Which, incidentally, I'd probably allow a wish to do despite it likely exceeding the 25k gp limit; the "twist" of the wish is built right in, because now a dragon is going to come looking for its property.)

[Coidzor]

The whole point of it is that you shouldn't use it unless you are doing something with it worth 5000 XP. It costs that much regardless of use, because it lacks the Miracle option of the DM simply saying no if you are bringing a sledgehammer to a problem that only needs a light tap. The purpose is to discourage you from spamming it on frivolities.

I am aware of the rules. I don't think that because they say X should be worth Y that X actually is worth Y, as there are numerous places where this is patently not the case in 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder. :smallconfused:


This is actually the point Andezzar raised. If that torch is exactly what you need to save your life, then yes, a torch can be worth 5000 XP because dying and losing a level (or not being raised at all) is worth far more.

That is a bad way to assign value to an effect, looking at an extremely corner case which badly skews perspective.


How is it "extortion?" You're paying for something you need, or think you need, and the price makes sure you are only willing to pay when necessary. Do you consider every transaction to be extortion?

No, I don't consider every transaction to be extortion. I'm frankly confused as to why you feel the need to try to paint me in that way for merely thinking that 5K experience isn't always worth the 9th level spell Wish.

Charging a man dying of dehydration everything he owns, and, indeed, his life sold into slavery in exchange for life-saving water though? That is.

And basing the general cost of water on that sort of thing is both economically and ethically dubious at best. Which is more akin to your assertion that "It should cost 5K XP because that's what the devs decided and if you need it to avoid dying, somehow, it's less XP than dying!" than you perhaps realize. :smallconfused:

[Segev]

No, I don't consider every transaction to be extortion. I'm frankly confused as to why you feel the need to try to paint me in that way for merely thinking that 5K experience isn't always worth the 9th level spell Wish.

Charging a man dying of dehydration everything he owns, and, indeed, his life sold into slavery in exchange for life-saving water though? That is.

This actually raises an interesting question: If you are in the position of being the only person who can save another man's life, how much can you ask in return before it qualifies as "extortion?"

There is a general truism thrown around in economics: a thing is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. So I don't think an 'intrinsic value' argument can be used to set a fair price in such a unique circumstance.

[Coidzor]

This actually raises an interesting question: If you are in the position of being the only person who can save another man's life, how much can you ask in return before it qualifies as "extortion?"

There is a general truism thrown around in economics: a thing is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. So I don't think an 'intrinsic value' argument can be used to set a fair price in such a unique circumstance.

Yes, I'm sure that question has been assayed a couple of times by now, though the majority of economists, IIRC, seek to avoid ethics like the plague for various reasons.

General cases, especially based on a wider sample set, work better than using only specific ones skewed in only one direction, though.

[Psyren]

I am aware of the rules. I don't think that because they say X should be worth Y that X actually is worth Y, as there are numerous places where this is patently not the case in 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder. :smallconfused:

I wasn't talking about the rules, I was talking about the likely reasoning behind them. Wish is not something players should be using frivolously and the XP cost prevents that. It makes you use it when there is no other way to accomplish what you need in that amount of time. What is wrong with that?

Calling it "extortion" is a naked appeal to emotion. As Segev noted, you are simply paying for something you want; if it's too expensive, either you don't buy that thing or you find another way of getting it. Just like anything else in life.



Charging a man dying of dehydration everything he owns, and, indeed, his life sold into slavery in exchange for life-saving water though? That is.

This is an odd analogy, because 5000 XP at the levels Wish becomes castable is hardly equivalent to this pile of hyperbole.

[Coidzor]

I wasn't talking about the rules, I was talking about the likely reasoning behind them. Wish is not something players should be using frivolously and the XP cost prevents that. It makes you use it when there is no other way to accomplish what you need in that amount of time. What is wrong with that?

Because we were talking past one another, apparently. Why is Miracle something that can be used frivolously to cast a lower level spell but Wish isn't?

The deeper we get into the reasoning it seems that it's more that "this was what was decided worked well enough and didn't require any more thought than that," which does not equate with good or perfect.


Calling it "extortion" is a naked appeal to emotion. As Segev noted, you are simply paying for something you want; if it's too expensive, either you don't buy that thing or you find another way of getting it. Just like anything else in life.

No, it's not. It's another way of phrasing overcharging because you started regurgitating the erroneous idea that humans are perfect economic actors at me and that somehow, because of that, it's not possible that there could ever be a case where Wish was overcharging for what it delivered.

Which I find flawed in the extreme, especially when we seem to agree that the things Wish charges a LOT for should just be handled by lower level spells when possible.


This is an odd analogy, because 5000 XP at the levels Wish becomes castable is hardly equivalent to this pile of hyperbole.

Hey, you didn't grok me and instead hyperboled at me, so I had to make the example clear by hyperboling right back. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Why is Miracle something that can be used frivolously to cast a lower level spell but Wish isn't?

I explained this multiple times already and will do so yet again. The answer to a Miracle, no matter how big or how small the request, can be "no." Your deity/force can simply say "you don't need a sledgehammer - use your head and figure it out" even to their high priest.

From a mechanics standpoint, there is no way for the player to abuse Miracle because the anti-spam measure is built right into the "spell."


No, it's not. It's another way of phrasing overcharging because you started regurgitating the erroneous idea that humans are perfect economic actors at me and that somehow, because of that, it's not possible that there could ever be a case where Wish was overcharging for what it delivered.

I never said that. I said that you should assume, when asked if one thing is worth another, that basic economics is being followed.



Which I find flawed in the extreme, especially when we seem to agree that the things Wish charges a LOT for should just be handled by lower level spells when possible.

You're proving my own point here. "Should be handled by lower level spells when possible" - we both appear to agree on this point - but how do you enforce that in arcane magic without making it costly in some way?


Hey, you didn't grok me and instead hyperboled at me, so I had to make the example clear by hyperboling right back. :smalltongue:

When?

[Anlashok]

I explained this multiple times already and will do so yet again. The answer to a Miracle, no matter how big or how small the request, can be "no." Your deity/force can simply say "you don't need a sledgehammer - use your head and figure it out" even to their high priest.

From a mechanics standpoint, there is no way for the player to abuse Miracle because the anti-spam measure is built right into the "spell."

Doesn't seem like a very strong argument given that the ground for that interpretation isn't too solid and it requires you to be playing in a specific type of setting and using specific types of rules.

[Psyren]

Doesn't seem like a very strong argument given that the ground for that interpretation isn't too solid and it requires you to be playing in a specific type of setting and using specific types of rules.

What "specific type of setting?" Miracle itself, by RAW, is a request. Requests can be denied by definition. If not, they are commands.

[Anlashok]

What "specific type of setting?" Miracle itself, by RAW, is a request. Requests can be denied by definition. If not, they are commands.

Eberron explicitly has gods that do not intervene. Ever. So you can't deny that request. Dark Sun doesn't have any gods, so you can't deny the request there. Would probably run into some problems in a setting like Ravenloft too.

Additionally you have nonstandard clerics to worry about: How do you deny the spell to a cleric who worships himself and explicitly does not derive his power from the gods (per Elder Evils)? What about an Ur-Priest?

[Psyren]

Eberron explicitly has gods that do not intervene. Ever. So you can't deny that request. Dark Sun doesn't have any gods, so you can't deny the request there. Would probably run into some problems in a setting like Ravenloft too.

Miracle specifically states such beings/powers "intercede." So by your logic, miracle would not work in these settings at all.



Additionally you have nonstandard clerics to worry about: How do you deny the spell to a cleric who worships himself and explicitly does not derive his power from the gods (per Elder Evils)?

Haven't read Elder Evils, so I wouldn't know where such clerics get their power. One wonders though that if they are the source of their own power, why they don't start the game at 20th level.

[Snails]

Doesn't seem like a very strong argument given that the ground for that interpretation isn't too solid and it requires you to be playing in a specific type of setting and using specific types of rules.

The SRD says:


You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

The implications of the wording are quite clear: that the answer might be "no" because it is a request. To "intercede" implies a positive decision by some powerful being or cosmic force somewhere to grant your request.

That the rules are not spoon feeding you reasons why the answer might be "no" may be dissatisfying to some readers. So be it. But the mechanical reason that Miracle might be cheaper to use than Wish is right there written down. It is not an oversight by the designers, but a decision to not micromanage the DMs.

[Snails]

Eberron explicitly has gods that do not intervene. Ever. So you can't deny that request. Dark Sun doesn't have any gods, so you can't deny the request there. Would probably run into some problems in a setting like Ravenloft too.

Additionally you have nonstandard clerics to worry about: How do you deny the spell to a cleric who worships himself and explicitly does not derive his power from the gods (per Elder Evils)? What about an Ur-Priest?

You are getting hung up by the idea that the grantor lacks a stat block in the Monster Manual or Deities & Demigods. D&D assumes that a thing like "Good" is a pervasive force baked into fabric of the universe more deeply than even a particular god. Good is a cosmic force that is capable of making judgements. Or perhaps godless clerics who worship themselves are unwittingly instill the pure spark of, say, Good in themselves with volition and ability to make insightful judgements? Does it matter?

The default assumption is that your campaign setting adheres close enough to D&D norms that there is sufficient wiggle room. If the campaign setting is both extremely odd and ironclad in its metaphysics, then some spells may need to removed.

[Coidzor]

I never said that. I said that you should assume, when asked if one thing is worth another, that basic economics is being followed.

And I argued that it would be the case... if what it charged was in line with what it gave. I agree that *sometimes* what Wish gives is in line with what it costs, whereas you think it always is by nature of costing that because of the designers and if it's just too spendy, well, use lower spells. As near as I have been grokking you, anyway.


You're proving my own point here. "Should be handled by lower level spells when possible" - we both appear to agree on this point - but how do you enforce that in arcane magic without making it costly in some way?

Different directions. You think it *should* be handled by lower level spells and so should be exorbitant in cost, while I think that it should be handled by lower level spells because they made the cost overly exorbitant in ways that I don't agree with.


When?

When you accused me of saying that all transactions are extortion. Certainly seemed like either strawmanning or hyperbole and interpreting it as hyperbole was more charitable and in keeping with my perception of you as a person based upon our interactions as a whole.

[Flickerdart]

Wish, on the other hand, is "Your effect of choice happens. I get a PHB-issued DM-usable 'SCREW YOU!' button if it's outside of the specifically enumerated powers, but it only works after the effect takes place."
Not even close. Both "perversion" and "partial fulfilment" are part of the effect.

[Anlashok]

Miracle specifically states such beings/powers "intercede." So by your logic, miracle would not work in these settings at all.

Not my logic, just how those settings are described and as far as I know there's no special provision against effects like miracle.


Haven't read Elder Evils, so I wouldn't know where such clerics get their power. One wonders though that if they are the source of their own power, why they don't start the game at 20th level.It's the act of faith itself that gives you power. Essentially the gist of the idea though is that you can gain divine powers without the intercession of a god by worshipping something that isn't a god (ideals, objects and oneself are just the examples the book gives).




The default assumption is that your campaign setting adheres close enough to D&D norms that there is sufficient wiggle room. If the campaign setting is both extremely odd and ironclad in its metaphysics, then some spells may need to removed.

I wouldn't call it "extremely odd" or abnormal, Eberron gets more paper than anything other than Forgotten Realms.

[dascarletm]

Specific trumps general.

In the setting it is the general assumption gods do not interfere.

I guess in the specific case of Miracle they do.

Either that or the writers of the setting overlooked that little bit of information/didn't feel the need to specifically call it out.

[Snails]

It's the act of faith itself that gives you power. Essentially the gist of the idea though is that you can gain divine powers without the intercession of a god by worshipping something that isn't a god (ideals, objects and oneself are just the examples the book gives).

Then presumably it is possible for an aspect of you yourself to unconsciously sit in judgement of your own actions. If you set out to become a living embodiment of an ideal, there can be subtle unforeseen consequences of achieving your goal.


I wouldn't call it "extremely odd" or abnormal, Eberron gets more paper than anything other than Forgotten Realms.

Gods being disinterested is not odd. What would be extremely odd is to have metaphysics so clear and carved in stone that it is impossible to imagine that there could be a "grantor" that says "no".

[Krobar]

The downside of a miracle being it can be denied is offset by the DM being able to pervert just about any wish cast any way he wants.

I've played in that game. You could wish for 1 gp and it would be delivered by a dozen pit fiends.

[Anlashok]

The downside of a miracle being it can be denied is offset by the DM being able to pervert just about any wish cast any way he wants.

I've played in that game. You could wish for 1 gp and it would be delivered by a dozen pit fiends.

The line about perverted wishes is under the heading about greater effects though.

[Psyren]

And I argued that it would be the case... if what it charged was in line with what it gave. I agree that *sometimes* what Wish gives is in line with what it costs, whereas you think it always is by nature of costing that because of the designers and if it's just too spendy, well, use lower spells. As near as I have been grokking you, anyway.

Again, not what I said. It's indeed possible to wish for something that is not in line with what you pay. The problem is that if you do so, it is your fault, not that of the spell itself and certainly not that of the designers. You can drop a fireball at your feet too, or target yourself with magic missile - that doesn't mean the spells were designed to be a bad deal for you, or not worthwhile.



Different directions. You think it *should* be handled by lower level spells and so should be exorbitant in cost, while I think that it should be handled by lower level spells because they made the cost overly exorbitant in ways that I don't agree with.

Still iinaccurate - I don't think it is exorbitant at all. Or rather, if it could be exorbitant, it is your fault for misusing it to make it that way when you should have been using something more cost-effective.

And if you have nothing else you can use to get what you want, in what way can it be considered exorbitant? If it is your only resort in a desperate situation, you cannot rationally put a price on that.


Specific trumps general.

In the setting it is the general assumption gods do not interfere.

I guess in the specific case of Miracle they do.

Either that or the writers of the setting overlooked that little bit of information/didn't feel the need to specifically call it out.

^ That. Miracle specifically requires intercession - by deities or otherwise.

In Eberron, it may be an open question as to what exactly is granting your Miracle, but something is, and the DM can make that something say no.

[Zanos]

Hm, I'll say that I've largely been convinced that wish is worth at least one memorization slot. The ability to cast spells as a standard action despite their original casting time and the versatility of access to the entire sub 9 wizard list as a standard action is actually a lot more powerful than I thought, to say nothing of sending anyone from anywhere to anywhere.

I still don't think that using it to generate 25k GP is an intelligent use of 5k experience, though.

[Ageir]

Can't you use Five Wishes to raise an ability score by 1 point each wish?

[Zanos]

Can't you use Five Wishes to raise an ability score by 1 point each wish?
You can, but it only stacks up to a +5, and that would cost 25k experience to do, so you can't actually get the full +5 without experience cheese or being epic. You can purchase tomes for the same purpose, however.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hm, I'll say that I've largely been convinced that wish is worth at least one memorization slot. The ability to cast spells as a standard action despite their original casting time and the versatility of access to the entire sub 9 wizard list as a standard action is actually a lot more powerful than I thought, to say nothing of sending anyone from anywhere to anywhere.

I still don't think that using it to generate 25k GP is an intelligent use of 5k experience, though.

Would be pretty epic to kill someone with 500lbs of gold, though.

[Flickerdart]

Would be pretty epic to kill someone with 500lbs of gold, though.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110524140758/gameofthrones/images/3/39/Goldencrown.png

[Psyren]

Can't you use Five Wishes to raise an ability score by 1 point each wish?

Use Miracle instead. Getting the full +5 inherent bonus in one shot would count as a "very powerful request" - but it costs you 20k less XP if granted.

Use a thought bottle first in case you get denied, then you're only out 500.

[flare'90]

Use Miracle instead. Getting the full +5 inherent bonus in one shot would count as a "very powerful request" - but it costs you 20k less XP if granted.

Use a thought bottle first in case you get denied, then you're only out 500.

Better use Wish to make a Tome and a thought bottle to retain the Exp.