Does gold seem... worthless this Edition?

[CyberThread]

Just this time around, it seems that the edition is focused less on the cool reward you get from killing things, and more about the road traveled.


Be this good or bad depending on how the DM comes out, do you think magical items should still have monetary value just for the simple fact that we currently no guidelines on how to equip higher level characters during creation setup?

[akaddk]

{scrubbed}

[pwykersotz]

Just this time around, it seems that the edition is focused less on the cool reward you get from killing things, and more about the road traveled.


Be this good or bad depending on how the DM comes out, do you think magical items should still have monetary value just for the simple fact that we currently no guidelines on how to equip higher level characters during creation setup?

Not worthless perhaps, just worthless by comparison. Now you'll have to invest your gold in silly mundane things like running your kingdom or commissioning fantastic artwork. It's not so much gp=straight up power anymore.

[CyberThread]

{scrub the quote, scrub the post}

No I like to think am one of the reasons for your sleep disorder, and constant complaining.

[TrexPushups]

Gold is for buying keeps, training armies, and acquiring spell components. I like it better than having to constantly spend it on magic items just to barely keep up.

[Falka]

Actually, I find that Gold has a lot more value now. I can see players really counting their dimes, feeling happy when they complete a quest that can give them 200 pieces. Knowing that I don't need to inflate quest rewards in order to make up for the 1500 gp +1 dagger (as there is no WallMagic anymore) keeps inflation at bay.

[Tzi]

A lack of focus on Gold, does allow for the possibility of homebrew world currencies and having that be a thing. Since most of what a player buys will be mundane items perhaps it would be easier to implement actual currency.

The Shekel of this land, the Peso of that land, the Rubel of that other place.

Money becomes less mechanically important seems like a good thing for me.

[Naanomi]

Yeah, I always wondered in 3.X/4ed where the motivation for 'I'm in it for the money!' characters was... since all their wealth went into things they wore all the time. Now, at least, you have a chance to spend it on wasteful things like good adventurers, or just plain horde it dragon-style

[CyberThread]

So wordly goods be spent on wordly gains, while mystical things be gained from mystical quests?

[TrexPushups]

So wordly goods be spent on wordly gains, while mystical things be gained from mystical quests?

That sounds like a good way to put it.

[Zeuel]

I like that gold can be spent on fun things now instead of keeping up with the gear treadmill. I'm the type of person who in 2e loved building a keep and getting followers and those kinds of things.

[CyberThread]

While you folks are slowly changing my mind, I would say that this editions desperately needs an arms and equipment supplement, so we can spend the money on cool toys then. Like cockatrice mounts.

[Yuki Akuma]

A cockatrice mount sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Everyone knows cockatrices are best used as weapons, anyway. Just be sure to wear gloves, and try not to fall down the stairs.

[TrexPushups]

I could handle some guidelines on training T-Rex's to be mounts.

[CyberThread]

polymorph into a turtle and then use an ooze as a mount?

[Craft (Cheese)]

Nonsense! You just have to spend your money on roleplaying stuff now, like building a dungeon full of traps and monsters and watching dumb 1st-level adventurers kill themselves trying to get to the end of it.

Seriously though, my prediction is that the Magic Mart module that's supposedly in the DMG will be the assumed default of the system at most tables.

[lianightdemon]

Yeha I want them to remake the arms and equipment guide and the stronghold builders guide

[Tzi]

Yeah, I always wondered in 3.X/4ed where the motivation for 'I'm in it for the money!' characters was... since all their wealth went into things they wore all the time. Now, at least, you have a chance to spend it on wasteful things like good adventurers, or just plain horde it dragon-style

That is what I'm excited about. Now, players might be hording gold to hire an army, create a break away kingdom. Maybe they have taxes to pay (Yes I'm a homebrewer that has considered what countries have which Tax Policy.)

Maybe the money is used to furnish an entire palace. Buy ships and expeditions ect.

[Naanomi]

Yeha I want them to remake the arms and equipment guide and the stronghold builders guide
Both sound reasonable, and whatever the Arms and Equipment guide is can even have a 'magic-mart light' section for potions and scrolls and trinkets that one might actually find for sale somewhere; as well as exotic mounts

[Fable Wright]

A cockatrice mount sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Everyone knows cockatrices are best used as weapons, anyway. Just be sure to wear gloves, and try not to fall down the stairs.

Gorgon mounts, however... (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RulesComp_Gallery/110241.jpg)

[Palegreenpants]

{Scrubbed}

[CyberThread]

Cool when I thread spam ill take that into account but rest assured that your words fall on deaf ears. I have made far more pointless threads in 3.5 an have spent good amount of time creating threads for those that don't have access to resources yet.

[Muenster Man]

CyberThread, your threads have been very useful to me and I appreciate it. Please keep up the good work :smallsmile:

Edit: On topic, I'm in agreement with most everyone else and love the shift in the focus of gold.

[Sartharina]

I like the changed emphasis on gold. In previous editions, you had to ditch gold - and I'm terrified of running a 4e game because of how tight the gear treadmill seems to be. I'm scared of putting treasure in hidden areas, because then if I factor that into their WBL, they end up undergeared and overleveled, and if I don't and they do find it, they end up overgeared and under-leveled. And, it makes consumables a pain in the ass, because those burn through WBL like nobody's business, and their payoff isn't always worth the cost.

Now, I can do what I want with wealth. :D

[Fwiffo86]

Yay! No more characters with enough gold and platinum to have their own Moons!!

[Palegreenpants]

Cool when I thread spam ill take that into account but rest assured that your words fall on deaf ears. I have made far more pointless threads in 3.5 an have spent good amount of time creating threads for those that don't have access to resources yet.

As they say: quality over quantity.

[CyberThread]

As they say... ratio ...


Anyways, am done with that topic, back to the OT.


So it seems you folks have changed my mind that gold isn't as bad as it seems, due to no longer needing to buy so many items, now I just hope the DM has things for me to buy, if we only run dungeon crawls.

[Zeuel]

I like the changed emphasis on gold. In previous editions, you had to ditch gold - and I'm terrified of running a 4e game because of how tight the gear treadmill seems to be. I'm scared of putting treasure in hidden areas, because then if I factor that into their WBL, they end up undergeared and overleveled, and if I don't and they do find it, they end up overgeared and under-leveled. And, it makes consumables a pain in the ass, because those burn through WBL like nobody's business, and their payoff isn't always worth the cost.

Now, I can do what I want with wealth. :D

The last time I DMed 4e was when Dark Sun came out, but if I did it again I would definitely switch over to inherent bonuses to completely bypass the gear treadmill because I feel the same way.

[Sartharina]

The last time I DMed 4e was when Dark Sun came out, but if I did it again I would definitely switch over to inherent bonuses to completely bypass the gear treadmill because I feel the same way.

Even the Inherent Bonuses don't seem to make much sense to me, because of the utility of the other magic stuff outside of just math things. WBL is like some sort of modular character traits.

[ibtfu]

Does gold seem... worthless this Edition?

Can we buy riding dogs and other war animals?

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/uploads/2013/11/nws77-baby-riding-dog.jpg

Haven't played 5e, but I'm expecting hordes of low level minions to be overpowered because of the bounded accuracy mechanic. Maybe we'll see a return to the B/X D&D days of adventuring expeditions with armies of men-at-arms, torchbearers, charmed followers, etc. :smallbiggrin:

[bulbaquil]

It seems to me traveling expenses are going to be more of an issue than in 3.5/PF. Overland Flight is gone, and Teleport's been hiked in level with a much greater chance of mishap. Greater Teleport is gone.

The overall feel and grittiness level seems to be somewhere around 2e - still not as much as Warhammer, but I'd likely consider doing things like tracking mundane expenditures/ammo to a greater extent than I would in a 3.5/PF game.

[Person_Man]

The intrinsic motivation to go out and adventure is still there. The world needs saving, after all. And since you can't buy magic items, the only way to get them is to go out into the world explore (and/or kill other people you meet with magic items).

But yeah, not seeing a motivation for gold. I hope the DMG has a module for running an organization/property/followers/etc like the Adventurer Conqueror King (old school D&D clone with really good wealth management rules), so that money is actually useful for players who care about it.

[Sartharina]

The intrinsic motivation to go out and adventure is still there. The world needs saving, after all. And since you can't buy magic items, the only way to get them is to go out into the world explore (and/or kill other people you meet with magic items).

But yeah, not seeing a motivation for gold. I hope the DMG has a module for running an organization/property/followers/etc like the Adventurer Conqueror King (old school D&D clone with really good wealth management rules), so that money is actually useful for players who care about it.

The lack of gold means the party's not swimming in the stuff the first time they stumble across a slightly-shinier sword than the ones they can get from Ye Olde Blacksmith and decide to sell rather than keep it. The lack of a WBL treadmill also gives the DM more leeway in allowing the party to lose what it acquires without breaking the game as well, allowing for sessions where the party is Broke.

[Naanomi]

But yeah, not seeing a motivation for gold.
I see it the exact opposite really. Now, at least for some characters, gold *is* the motivation (instead of just a vehicle to more loot). Big houses, big parties, buying political power... the reasons people want gobs of money in real life.

Investment bankers are not looking to buy the 'Custom Item of +8 Profession: Investment Banking' for their efforts; and many (not all) adventurers are looking less at 'saving the world' and more at 'get rich quick schemes'.

For those that don't care, well... donate it to the church or orphans or whoever. Or save it to buy a magic item; just because their is no 'magic mart' mentality doesn't mean you can't go pay millions of gold to have an alchemist alchemize some potions for you; or your share of the dragon's horde can't get donated to the temple of the Forge God in expectation of material rewards coming your way.

[1of3]

There is also the life style cost that I will ruthlessly apply, where before I usually handwaved such expenses, because tedious.

[mr_odd]

Gold (or at least being "wealthy") is a pretty big motivation for my 3.5 group. They typically don't straight use it for magical items though, they just want riches. Multiple players have spent hundreds of gold on a single bottle of wine. One player has an entire goal of buying the most expensive wine available.

I feel as though gold will have a wider use that can be applied in several ways. For those who want goal to obtain magical items, you can do that. If you just want straight cash, you got it. If you want to start a guild or an army, there you go.

[Felhammer]

Gold represents the actual wealth of a character, instead of a bar that has to be filled up so you can be given item X that boosts stat Y.

[Sir_Leorik]

Here are a few things that gold can be spent on:


Training your character to learn new languages and proficiencies.
Mounts
Healing potions
Lifestyle expenses
Spellcasting services from an NPC caster
Silvered weapons


I could go on and on, but there's plenty of cool stuff to spend gold on, whether before an adventure or during your PC's downtime. I feel its a good compromise between 3.X/4E, where you needed to save gold to buy (or craft) magic armor and weapons, and 1E/2E, where you were constantly scrimping for gold because you hand so many mundane expenses, like training just to go up a level.

[Sir_Leorik]

There is also the life style cost that I will ruthlessly apply, where before I usually handwaved such expenses, because tedious.

What's nice about 5E's lifestyle expenses rules is how they are very user friendly for a DM to apply. They don't require the micromanagement that was necessary in 1E/2E (and even in 3.X).

[Slipperychicken]

I think gold is going to sharply appreciate in value once they put out the rules for hirelings and magic item crafting.

Also, it seems like the designers wanted to remove gold from the character advancement process to make low-wealth games easier.

[bulbaquil]

Also, it seems like the designers wanted to remove gold from the character advancement process to make low-wealth games easier.

I agree with that. For starters, the "poor" wealth level (assumed to be used by most unskilled laborers) is 2 sp/day in D&D 5e, whereas in Pathfinder it is 3 gp/month = 1 sp/day. The "modest"/"comfortable" level is 1-2 gp/day = ~15 sp/day in 5e, whereas the roughly-equivalent "average" in Pathfinder is 10 gp/month = 3.3 sp/day.

In short, your gold coin appears to not go quite as far as it used to. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing - towns can for instance make, say, bounties for bandits and monsters a reasonable amount instead of horribly inflated to keep up with WBL. Adventurers appear to be back to being part of the economy here, rather than the economy. (Can the economy be broken by theorycrafting and the like? Well, yes; fabricate still exists, for example. But the underlying assumption is different.)

[Zeuel]

I think gold is going to sharply appreciate in value once they put out the rules for hirelings and magic item crafting.

Also, it seems like the designers wanted to remove gold from the character advancement process to make low-wealth games easier.

I'm wondering if crafting magic items is even going to be baseline in this edition. I could see it being like some sort of optional variant since magic items were major problems in both 3.X and 4e. Of course they could make it like 2e where making magic items was a super rare thing at higher levels that took multiple quests for weird crazy ingredients and a really long time to even do.

[Totema]

I'm wondering if crafting magic items is even going to be baseline in this edition. I could see it being like some sort of optional variant since magic items were major problems in both 3.X and 4e. Of course they could make it like 2e where making magic items was a super rare thing at higher levels that took multiple quests for weird crazy ingredients and a really long time to even do.

I love that idea. It makes a great quest hook. Find the ingredients, forge the holy sword of holiness, slay the BBEG. Classic, and tons of room to monkey around with. I'd be glad if that was the supported core basis for magic item creation.

[Gamgee]

I feel so vindicated. It's like..... they took my setting and rules I had to smash into 3.5/Pathfinder with great difficulty and never did fit properly. And just made it the default setting (minor tweaks still needed but who doesn't).

I can definitely say the focus is on ADVENTURE and not level grinding or gear grinding. In my modified games my players were so happy just to get a simple magic item. However due to the nature of how bad 3.5 supported that style of game I had to cap them at certain points until I could do work around. Thankfully I put it on pause until 5th came out as I had seen the rules.

Suffice to say my players think my campaign is one of the better ones I have done. Though only part of that is because of the super homerules and now 5th.

My one player has a potent magic item I gave him in Pathfinder and it was essentially Mjolnir Thor uses in the movies. Despite the fact it only added +1 it was still powerful because he could throw it and it would come back. It also had lightning damage associated with it.

However he was afraid he would need to dump it without it constantly being "upgraded" to match tiers of play. It was so stupid. Clearly a potent and powerful weapon gifted to him.

[Slipperychicken]

However he was afraid he would need to dump it without it constantly being "upgraded" to match tiers of play. It was so stupid. Clearly a potent and powerful weapon gifted to him.

It seems like PCs will need at least +1 weapons at high levels, if the new Tarrasque is anything to go by, since they made it flat-out immune to nonmagical weapons.

[Marius]

I think a middle ground between 3.5 and 5e would be the best. I'm a big fan of the way Fantasy Craft handled the subject.

At the end of each adventure you can transfer a certain
amount of your coin in hand into your stake. The rest is
automatically spent during Downtime, frittered away on
pleasures and covering expenses not expressly taken into
account by the rules (e.g. day-to-day living, entertainment,
personal debts, and the like). The amount you can transfer into
your stake after each adventure is determined by your Prudence
(see below).

You could only have X amount of magic items if your renown allowed it. If not, you'll have to sell them and then your money would be spent as per the rules above. You can't usually buy magic items and if you do you pay in reputation points, not in gold.

At my table the party decided to spend their money in things like forming a rebellion against the ruler of a town and things like that. It's a really cool system.

[rlc]

A cockatrice mount sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Everyone knows cockatrices are best used as weapons, anyway. Just be sure to wear gloves, and try not to fall down the stairs.

I like throwing their eggs. Don't even need gloves for that.

[Sir_Leorik]

I like throwing their eggs. Don't even need gloves for that.

Just don't eat the eggs. Actually, don't eat any eggs. They go bad real quick.

[Aricandor]

It's interesting, at the very least, to have it at least theoretically open for more roleplayish things than be a fundamental WBL-assumption to keep the core numbers on par. I still like the idea of there being people like the FR Thayvians and magic-guilds selling minor magic items (low level scrolls, potions, perhaps the occasional wand like one might be able to purchase a hunting rifle today) for whatever prices the DM sees fit, perhaps things that even non-adventurers might buy for specialized tasks.

[Falka]

I'm wondering if crafting magic items is even going to be baseline in this edition. I could see it being like some sort of optional variant since magic items were major problems in both 3.X and 4e. Of course they could make it like 2e where making magic items was a super rare thing at higher levels that took multiple quests for weird crazy ingredients and a really long time to even do.

I bet that's entirely possible.

Also, don't you guys think that the low amount of magic items makes now spellcasting classes more valuable? Not in a "I completely outshine mundane classes" way, but more like, you now actually care about having that Disguise Self at will WL Invocation, because you cannot easily replicate it otherwise.

[Angelalex242]

Well, gold isn't COMPLETELY worthless. All the heavy armor guys need their 1500 GP for Plate Armor.

After that though...

If Mithril Plate from the playtest becomes a thing, then they may save up for that instead.

[Gamgee]

It seems like PCs will need at least +1 weapons at high levels, if the new Tarrasque is anything to go by, since they made it flat-out immune to nonmagical weapons.

That's perfectly acceptable. Considering they will be heroic characters by that point who will have earned them through hard work.

[pwykersotz]

That's perfectly acceptable. Considering they will be heroic characters by that point who will have earned them through hard work.

Immunity to non-magic weapons also won't stop people from beating the Tarrasque with mundane means. It's also perfectly acceptable to have a foe that can't be beaten through power alone. Kite it into tarpits, for example.

[Gamgee]

Immunity to non-magic weapons also won't stop people from beating the Tarrasque with mundane means. It's also perfectly acceptable to have a foe that can't be beaten through power alone. Kite it into tarpits, for example.

If I want a monster that is truly unbeatable, it won't have stats. It will be a force of nature, and they will get XP for "solving" the solution. Or even simply surviving the attack of a force of nature. I use these monsters sparingly (once or twice per entire 1-20 campaign), but to good effect.

[pwykersotz]

If I want a monster that is truly unbeatable, it won't have stats. It will be a force of nature, and they will get XP for "solving" the solution. Or even simply surviving the attack of a force of nature. I use these monsters sparingly (once or twice per entire 1-20 campaign), but to good effect.

Yep, that's certainly another way to do it. On the other hand, if the party lures the Tarrasque into tarpits at level 1 and it escapes at level 20 and they have to kill it, you get the benefits of force of nature + statted all in the same monster.

Edit: I think I'll stop mentioning this here, there's a lovely Tarrasque thread that would probably appreciate the topic more.

[Knaight]

Well, gold isn't COMPLETELY worthless. All the heavy armor guys need their 1500 GP for Plate Armor.

After that though...

If Mithril Plate from the playtest becomes a thing, then they may save up for that instead.

There's still all the other things it's useful for. Gold is essentially a consumable used mostly for temporary effects, and that's totally fine. There are bribes, there's hiring people, there's buying buildings to conduct clandestine affairs* in, so on and so forth. It's money that behaves like money, instead of a second track of character power based on a needlessly high number point buy system.

*In the sense of smuggling, or investigating something within a city without being caught, or whatever, though romantic clandestine affairs could also qualify.

[Demonic Spoon]

Presumably you could also allow players to purchase magic items. It's just that you wouldn't tell them "Here's the DMG's full list of magic items, buy what you want"...there might be some merchant in a city who happens to have a small collection of certain things for sale.

[Angelalex242]

Well, as a guy who normally plays Paladins, my first concern is buying my full plate just as fast as my GM will let me. I presume something similar for most fighters/clerics.

[Gamgee]

Yep, that's certainly another way to do it. On the other hand, if the party lures the Tarrasque into tarpits at level 1 and it escapes at level 20 and they have to kill it, you get the benefits of force of nature + statted all in the same monster.

Edit: I think I'll stop mentioning this here, there's a lovely Tarrasque thread that would probably appreciate the topic more.

Yea has its uses.

[Naanomi]

Presumably you could also allow players to purchase magic items. It's just that you wouldn't tell them "Here's the DMG's full list of magic items, buy what you want"...there might be some merchant in a city who happens to have a small collection of certain things for sale.
I agree, and for higher level parties (or people just walking away with 1/4 share of a dragon's horde); huge donations to the Church of the Smith God or something similar would seem like a good way to turn cash into magic items without having a 'magic-mart' price list laying around

[Angelalex242]

Actually...I wouldn't recommend donations to the smith god. Clerics and Paladins should generally donate their huge gobs of unnecessary money (Ya know, after they buy their full plate...) to their own church. The Church, particularly a Lawful Good church...is going to have magic items on standby, kept in the holy reliquary, for heroes of the faith who need them. Most Paladin orders probably have a Holy Avenger in the hands of whoever the Grand Knight of the order is, because the Clerics go out of their way to create one every time a new Paladin Order is made. They have magical full plate and magic rings and rings of elemental resistance and so on to deal with threats that require such things. And the general idea is, they give you what you need to smite the great evil, but then they expect you to return it to the reliquary so it can be used the next time somebody needs it.

Unlike everyone else in the world, a Lawful Good Church full of Paladins and equally ethical Clerics can pretty much run on an honor system with minimal bookkeeping, checking powerful magic items out like books at a library, because they know their god will smite them down if anyone dares do anything the least bit unethical. Corollary to this is that any magic items found are added to the church reliquary to make the whole faith stronger.

Paladin:A blue dragon is making a nuisance of itself 3 villages over.
Cleric:Right then, you need this sword of dragonslaying, this ring of electrical resistance, this shield of evasion, this cloak of resistance for the saving throws...that should do it.
Paladin:Thanks!

1 Week later:
Paladin:Yep, dragon's dead, here's all the stuff back.
Cleric:Everything's here, dragon's dead, everyone wins.

[hawklost]

Actually...I wouldn't recommend donations to the smith god. Clerics and Paladins should generally donate their huge gobs of unnecessary money (Ya know, after they buy their full plate...) to their own church. The Church, particularly a Lawful Good church...is going to have magic items on standby, kept in the holy reliquary, for heroes of the faith who need them. Most Paladin orders probably have a Holy Avenger in the hands of whoever the Grand Knight of the order is, because the Clerics go out of their way to create one every time a new Paladin Order is made. They have magical full plate and magic rings and rings of elemental resistance and so on to deal with threats that require such things. And the general idea is, they give you what you need to smite the great evil, but then they expect you to return it to the reliquary so it can be used the next time somebody needs it.

Unlike everyone else in the world, a Lawful Good Church full of Paladins and equally ethical Clerics can pretty much run on an honor system with minimal bookkeeping, checking powerful magic items out like books at a library, because they know their god will smite them down if anyone dares do anything the least bit unethical. Corollary to this is that any magic items found are added to the church reliquary to make the whole faith stronger.

Paladin:A blue dragon is making a nuisance of itself 3 villages over.
Cleric:Right then, you need this sword of dragonslaying, this ring of electrical resistance, this shield of evasion, this cloak of resistance for the saving throws...that should do it.
Paladin:Thanks!

1 Week later:
Paladin:Yep, dragon's dead, here's all the stuff back.
Cleric:Everything's here, dragon's dead, everyone wins.

OR

1 Week Later:
------------------------------------------------ SCENARIO 1 possible -------------------------------------------------
Cleric: Has anyone seen Paladin Bob? He went out to slay a dragon a week ago and he hasn't returned. That is not like him at all.
Cleric 2: We just heard from some villagers who just barely escaped the dragons wraith. Although Paladin Bob was slain in combat and the Dragon took his corpse away, he valiantly spent his life holding the Dragon at bay while a few more of the villagers escaped with their lives.
Cleric: That is terrible news, Bob was a great person and it is wonderful he saved the villagers but we just lost all those holy relics that the church was responsible for!
-------------------------------------------------SCENARIO 2 possible -------------------------------------------------
Cleric: Hey Head Cleric, we have some villagers here again begging us to help them defeat a dragon that's been attacking them and raiding the villages for weeks. Didn't we send Paladin Bob out last week to take care of it?
Cleric: Oh wait, the villages just gave me a tattered crest they found on the roadside going to their villages. It looks like some of them were attacked by a strong bandit group and all their money was stolen. I know Bob wouldn't have left bandits behind him on his travels....... oh crap, Bob must have been killed by bandits. Now all his Holy Relics have been taken by brigands!

And now your Lawful Good church is missing their holy relics. Years later.... and now for a new adventure plot!

[Angelalex242]

Neither scenario 1 nor scenario 2 is particularly likely if Paladin Bob has a standard adventuring party with him. TPKs are pretty rare.

[Naanomi]

Works for some character concepts. I imagine other organizations might have similar systems in place... powerful Druid Circles having a secret cache of goodies to give out to those who protect nature; powerful Thieves' Guilds having 'special tools' for important jobs done by highly producing members (knowing they can 'acquire' it back if the person doesn't comply to return it).

Still, some character concepts are not going to have the built in support, and in those cases the God of the Forge still seems like a viable option (alongside the Wizard's College etc) for the truly wealthy to buy such things. Of course, a less moral character could always turn to darker sources for enchanted items in exchange for wealth (or the idols/etc it can buy); particularly Warlock characters who already have an 'in' with an appropriate Patron.

[hawklost]

Neither scenario 1 nor scenario 2 is particularly likely if Paladin Bob has a standard adventuring party with him. TPKs are pretty rare.

First, you implied that the Lawful Good church would give their items to any of their Paladins they felt could take on the threat. Why do you assume that I am talking about the adventuring party getting those items? There could be many other Paladins in the church who do not travel with random ruffians who are questionable in the law (Welcome Rogues and others who are NOT lawful good!). Secondly, TPKs Can and Do happen. They happen all the time in the adventures, whether they are player TPKs or just some 'other group who already went there' and died is different. It is not like your Lawful Good church would ask their paladin questions like

"Do you have a group of 3-4 others with you"
----- "No? You are Alone, well then go take care of it without any of our Relics"
----- "No? You are going to take 50 Men-At-Arms with you but no other people? Sorry, those aren't good enough as these 4-5 people over there in the bar"

"Are all your Party members good upstanding citizens?"
---- "You work with someone who casts Arcane magic? Sorry, you know we don't trust those people near our Relics, they are always trying to take them away to study"
---- "You work with some strong man from out in the badlands? Sorry, you know we can't really trust those tribes people, they always raid our border monasteries and kill our priests"
---- "You work with a guy who breaks in and steals things all the time? why would we trust our most holy items near someone who is a known thief?"

"Is the CR of this Dragon within your ability to take without too much challenge?"
---- "Wait, what do you mean that you don't know what CR is and that you need to take the dragon even if you die?"
---- "You believe so huh? Did we get scout reports to verify that this is an Adult dragon and not an Elder Dragon? Only villager reports? Nope, we need to send more people to investigate first, we will sent our members with Relics out after we can be sure they will make it back"

"Are you a person who has gained skills quite a bit quicker than normal?" (Are you a PC?)
---- "Well yes, you did earn your Paladinship at an early age, but you haven't gained enough skill in the last month of travel to be good enough. We should keep our Relics for those special Paladins"
---- "You have only been a Paladin for a week and can already cast smite 5 times a day? Yes, here is all your items, I know you haven't spent much time with us, but since you are from our Church you must be trustworthy."

[Angelalex242]

Try to give the clerics some credit for their wisdom scores, which are 20 most of the time.

Wisdom 20 comes with a great deal of common sense. Which includes 'one guy is not an adventuring party. One guy is a liability.'

Also give them credit for spellcasting. Augry, Divination, Commune...before sending out the holy relics, cast the spells to make sure it's a good idea.

[hawklost]

Try to give the clerics some credit for their wisdom scores, which are 20 most of the time.

Wisdom 20 comes with a great deal of common sense. Which includes 'one guy is not an adventuring party. One guy is a liability.'

Also give them credit for spellcasting. Augry, Divination, Commune...before sending out the holy relics, cast the spells to make sure it's a good idea.

Wow, you have really high opinions of NPCs. First, where does it say that all your Priests in a church are casters? Second, why do you assume that every single person who makes it in the church has a high wisdom? Where do you get your fantastical people from where everyone in your realm carries a high score at the peak of human capacity? Heck, where are all your high level NPCs coming from as it is? You seem to believe that every person who isn't a peasant (and possibly them as well) is a superhuman (yes, 20 in a stat is superhuman, the strongest person in the world from all of history is a 20 str, the smartest from all of history is a 20 int, the wisest is a 20 wis, these people are what legends are based on partially). This is kind of ridiculous thinking trying to base every NPC on the fact that PCs are considered extraordinary to begin with.

As for common sense, are you saying that a Cleric would not give the Paladin of Light, slayer of 20 dragons, the dragonslayer sword because he was alone and didn't want to get others killed? He could still fail this time.

And your spells, you might want to look them up better, they don't give the answer, just vague help.

-Commune doesn't have the answers to the future, just what your Deity might know. No Deity knows the future (it also requires a lvl 9 caster minimum to get used, how many people in your world are Clerics of Lawful Good Church and are lvl 9 casters?).
-Divination is just as bad because it can't answer the outcome of a battle, but only what will occur within 7 days, by the way it is written, Any spell cast can change the outcome (and therefore make your answer useless). (This requires only a lvl 7 caster, but still pretty high in most of the worlds)
- Augury is useless unless the Dragon is right outside the Temple doors as it only works for 30 minutes in advance.

Any answer is also subject to the casting of spells or loss of a companion or any other thing that could effect combat heavily.

You are trying to claim that because your person is from a lawful good location that they would be able to get items for free and be awesome. That is a ridiculous claim for many reasons, some of which I have provided in previous posts (People lose their Relics all the time in DnD!)

you also ignore the fact that
- Thieves might take the Relics
- The Temple is raided and/pr destroyed, making the Relics lost
- They Can be lost on an Adventure, whether you cast 1 or 1 million divination spells
- Someone in the Church is corrupt
- Everyone in DnD are not super powered beings like mid-high level PCs are.

[Angelalex242]

It's a safe bet the deity knows both the stats of the dragon and the stats of the adventuring party as if it had a bunch of character sheets in front of it. From that information, it can make educated guesses on whether or not sending the team out with the holy relics is a good idea. Commune only answers yes/no, typically, so 'Is sending these guys out with the holy relics a good idea?' can be asked as a valid question. The deity might not know the future, but they're so good at guessing they're right at least 80 to 90 percent of the time.

Divination? Well, if the Divination shows a dragon standing on dead heroes, probably a bad idea. If the divination shows heroes standing on a dead dragon, probably a good idea.

Augry can only tell you 30 minutes in advance...but it can say 'weal' or 'woe' to giving the holy items to this particular group of adventurers. (Naturally, if it comes back 'woe' they don't hand 'em out.')

[hawklost]

Commune - 'Is sending these guys out with the holy relics a good idea?' Yes Why? Well, lets see, without these relics, the party will surely die. With them they have a chance to defeat the dragon. So to answer is it a good idea? Yup, definitely a good idea. See how that works? Answer comes out as yes because without them you lose your paladin and crew.

Divination requires a question, just like Commune. so assuming your question is 'Is sending these guys out with the holy relics a good idea?' the answer could be the party standing over the dead body of a dragon (because just like the Commune, without it the outcome was certain).

I don't believe that Augury can predict anything Farther than 30 minutes. You don't get to ask it (Should I let this child live) every time a person is born, just because someone someday might cause harm to you. Otherwise there would be entire areas where no one would be allowed to make any 'major' life decisions without first having Augury cast. "Should I marry him/her?" "Should we cure this person?" "Should I move to a new home?" All of these in the future could be Woe, so you are trying to take a 2nd level spell and make it into this super spell.

You are again trying to make Divination spells an "I win for certain". Divination spells are not a sure thing, even the Gods can be completely wrong (welcome to using Dice in a system). They aren't perfect and they can only answer basic information At Best and everything is still subject to change. These abilities are only as powerful as the DM allows them, and in my opinion, any DM who allows players to abuse them (like you think the LG clerics should) is pretty bad at storytelling. In most of the games I like (with DMs not allowing Cheeze to screw up the game like that) you would find that somehow Evil has blocked (or at least screwed up the answers) all abilities to pertain to the future after using it that way too many times (or arguing with the DM because your character died/was injured when the divination spell said you would be awesome).

[Sartharina]

And what if the answer is "No - Because the dragon or a twist of fate has a good chance of killing the party even with their magic items, and then we're out a bunch of magical relics"

No power of divination is capable of determining the fate of a PC.

[Angelalex242]

No, it's not 'I win for certain.' It never is. It's 'according to the laws of statistical probability, you are more likely to win then not.'

[hawklost]

No, it's not 'I win for certain.' It never is. It's 'according to the laws of statistical probability, you are more likely to win then not.'

Congrats, by asking the Divination spells if the random paladin and group should take the Relics, the answer was Yes, there was a 51% chance of the group killing the dragon with it. Heck, lets give it a 90% chance.

Oh no. The group still failed and died because they only had a 90% chance. Now all your relics are gone.

So, we are back to the group probably not having a huge amount of relics prepared for random party groups of their order because sometime in the past, Not PCs, failed and died even with the Clerics spending all their time casting those Divination spells.

[Sartharina]

Wait... wait! It's all part of the plan to keep the Adventuring Business afloat and relics in circulation.

Of course the temples send their holy relics out on suicide missions - After all, they're not doing any good just gathering dust in the storerooms. Worst comes to worst, you just end up with a few dead adventurers, and they have to send someone out to retrieve them.

In fact, NOT sending their relics out with adventurers could be disastrous - Between dragons being too deadly for adventurers to face without artifacts, and a complete loss of the Artifact Retrieval sub-business in Adventuring, the damn murderhobos start roving the countryside getting into trouble because they don't have anything better to do!

[hawklost]

LOL, for that Sartharina, I shall concede that all large organizations have 'Relics' that they send out with the murderhobos. :smallbiggrin:

[Sartharina]

LOL, for that Sartharina, I shall concede that all large organizations have 'Relics' that they send out with the murderhobos. :smallbiggrin:

You don't have to put "relics" into quotes. When playing the long game, giving relics away to adventurers will result in net gains - Either the adventurer wins his quest and returns the relic as possibly more powerful than it was (Because now it has ANOTHER legend under its belt), or its wielder is defeated, and the power of the item grows as it passes from wielder to wielder, gets desecrated and then re-sanctified, shattered and reforged, and eventually finds its way back to the temple. Deities can play a VERY long game.

[hawklost]

I put 'relics' in quotes because the items he was giving out where probably not relic quality in the first place "sword of dragonslaying, this ring of electrical resistance, this shield of evasion, this cloak of resistance" Most of those items are uncommon magic but definitely not Relic worthy. I still don't see the Church keeping them around just for PC adventurers.

[Angelalex242]

It's still a better proposition to have the right tools for the job sitting in the temple reliquary then not. After all, if the bandits take those items with powerful seals of Heironeous (or Torm, or whoever) on them, it's pretty obvious who they stole those things from, and then clerics simply send someone else to hunt the thugs down. The symbols in question may even be specially enchanted to make retrieval easier. And this on top of having them set up such that they only function for good (or even only lawful good!) characters. So when the neutral or evil bandits take them, all they get is cursed for their trouble.

[Sartharina]

I put 'relics' in quotes because the items he was giving out where probably not relic quality in the first place "sword of dragonslaying, this ring of electrical resistance, this shield of evasion, this cloak of resistance" Most of those items are uncommon magic but definitely not Relic worthy. I still don't see the Church keeping them around just for PC adventurers.

Actually - they very well could be in this edition. It's not a "Sword of Dragonslaying": It's "St. George's Longsword, used to slay the foul dragon X, and his blessing accompanies those who endevour in similar pursuits." It's not "The Ring of electrical resistance" - it's "Kord's Ring" allowing his followers to charge into battle amidst the deadly tempest, heedless of the lightning thundering around him. It's not the "Shield of Evasion" - it's "The Pretentiously-Named Shield", keeping the user safe from dragon breath, fireballs, and lightning bolts.

[VeliciaL]

I didn't think we were talking about handing them out to random adventurers, but to PC paladins, who are (in theory at least) agents of the church, or at least the church's deity. I'm pretty sure the church has a vested interest in keeping these agents well equipped.

[Angelalex242]

In addition, these churches have been around for thousands of years. During those thousands of years, **** happens. Thus, the churches have standard procedures for what to do when **** happens. Being Lawful, such churches are going to be very organized about dealing with it. This, of course, applies to LN and LE churches as well, and god help you if you cross the LE church, cause not only will they take their item back, they'll torture you to death as a dark sacrifice to their god for the evulz in the process.

[hawklost]

I didn't think we were talking about handing them out to random adventurers, but to PC paladins, who are (in theory at least) agents of the church, or at least the church's deity. I'm pretty sure the church has a vested interest in keeping these agents well equipped.

It is assumed that there are many Paladins of the church throughout the hundreds/thousands of years in its existence. As such, not all of them make it back for whatever reason. Those items would be lost. Others would be lost through thieves and others still when one of the churches gets overrun by evil.

Its not as if the church just keeps around magical items to give out to the PCs whenever the group asks (even if they are part of the church)

[Angelalex242]

Actually, a well organized church handing out magical items to PC adventurers makes lots of sense if one likewise assumes the PC adventurer Paladin/Cleric is donating the magical items he finds on its own to keep the reliquary well stocked. Because if the PCs do it, NPCs are doing it too, and on the whole, they find or win more stuff then they lose, so the church is slowly gaining stuff on the whole. Some of the stuff they have to loan out may be only +1 swords, but they probably have 15 or 20 of them available at any given temple.

In short, this whole setup relies on clerics and paladins NOT being greedy. Like, ya know, Lawful Good clerics and paladins shouldn't be. :)

[Zeuel]

I think it's probably pretty reasonable for organized churches to have the resources necessary to invest in other religious adventurer's who can help further their interests if they are big enough. Other adventurer's may have donated magic items previously in exchange for favors or maybe adventurers of the faith donated magic items that weren't readily useful to them.

[hawklost]

I think it's probably pretty reasonable for organized churches to have the resources necessary to invest in other religious adventurer's who can help further their interests if they are big enough. Other adventurer's may have donated magic items previously in exchange for favors or maybe adventurers of the faith donated magic items that weren't readily useful to them.

I have no problem with a church (or even many other organizations) having items to give to players during certain circumstances (Love the Pathfinder Society, which sells at discount those items to players). I don't believe that they will have all the items players want. I don't believe that they will guaranty the safety of the items through Divination. Heck, I don't even agree with them always knowing what the items ARE other than something magical.

I don't agree with the idea that the Cleric and Paladin can get around the limited magical items a campaign might have by just saying "Well, my church should have them and I am in good standing, so I will get them there".

[Angelalex242]

Misunderstanding the point.

I'm talking about a whole new way of looking at religious types and magic items. They turn in the magic items they find to the temple reliquaries, and then, when they need stuff, they check it out. Each temple reliquary will have an inventory, of course, of stuff they can loan out at any given time, but it's the GM's call either way.

It should, however, generally allow a cleric/paladin to have access to more stuff when they need it then they might have by trying to hoard everything they find. Playing to the greater good works to their favor.

[VeliciaL]

Misunderstanding the point.

I'm talking about a whole new way of looking at religious types and magic items. They turn in the magic items they find to the temple reliquaries, and then, when they need stuff, they check it out. Each temple reliquary will have an inventory, of course, of stuff they can loan out at any given time, but it's the GM's call either way.

It should, however, generally allow a cleric/paladin to have access to more stuff when they need it then they might have by trying to hoard everything they find. Playing to the greater good works to their favor.

This is how I see it. It's not about allowing religious classes access to more items than they should have, but refluffing how they get their allotment of magic items.

[Angelalex242]

It still gives them versatility. The greedy rogue in the party is stuck with what he has, but the cleric and paladin can check out varying stuff depending on the adventure they face.

Back in 3.5, your WBL may be 36,000 gp.

But the Cleric and Paladin can just turn their current stuff in and pick 36,000 gp of different stuff. It gives a prepared spellcaster's advantage...customizing your setup...to the divine classes. And only to good divine classes. Neutral and Evil divine casters wouldn't trust each other enough to do that.

[Sartharina]

Why should only Paladins and Clerics be able to access the church resources?

[Angelalex242]

Divine Casters are part of the church. They lose their powers if they doublecross the church. That's not true of other people.

[VeliciaL]

Why should only Paladins and Clerics be able to access the church resources?

This struck me as well. Seems to me that particularly religious members of other classes should be allowed access too, as long as they're donating items to the stores.

[Totema]

Misunderstanding the point.

I'm talking about a whole new way of looking at religious types and magic items. They turn in the magic items they find to the temple reliquaries, and then, when they need stuff, they check it out. Each temple reliquary will have an inventory, of course, of stuff they can loan out at any given time, but it's the GM's call either way.

It should, however, generally allow a cleric/paladin to have access to more stuff when they need it then they might have by trying to hoard everything they find. Playing to the greater good works to their favor.

The problem I have with that setup is that it still messes with 5e's apparent philosophy of permanently magic items being rare and mythic. Sure, it's nowhere near as bad as in 3.5, where you can pick up your +1 weapon at the closest 7-Eleven, but the idea of every temple having an inventory of them still degrades their specialness.

5e looks like it really wants you to work for your magic items. I see no inherent problem with a church possessing one or two that the PCs might be able to access, but it shouldn't be as easy as saying to the head priest "Oh I need this to slay the dragon" and them saying "Alright here you go". Maybe the magic item needs some kind of lengthy attunement process, or maybe it needs to be reconsecrated, or maybe it's been stolen. Simply being part of the same religious order is just not an adequate gateway to getting pimped out gear.

Of course I kind of lost track of this discussion so I might be talking out of my ass right now.

[Sartharina]

Divine Casters are part of the church. They lose their powers if they doublecross the church. That's not true of other people.No they don't. Divine classes answer to their god (if they have one), not their church.

Furthermore, a Wilderness Barbarian, loyal soldier, streetsmart/archaeologist rogue helps the church with Magic Item retrieval and donation, they should likewise be able to enjoy the church's generosity and hospitality.

[Angelalex242]

Sigh. Semantics. Do you really think a Paladin or Good Cleric is going to get away with double crossing the church unless the church itself is corrupt, and thus, out of favor with the God him or herself?

Common sense, please.

A god/goddess and their church are assumed to be in alignment unless the whole plot is that they're not. But if they aren't, that's the whole plot.

[hawklost]

Sigh. Semantics. Do you really think a Paladin or Good Cleric is going to get away with double crossing the church unless the church itself is corrupt, and thus, out of favor with the God him or herself?

Common sense, please.

A god/goddess and their church are assumed to be in alignment unless the whole plot is that they're not. But if they aren't, that's the whole plot.

Gotta love your argument of common sense. Where in any of the books does it say the church is the exact alignment of their god? Where does it even say that a Cleric or Paladin must be the exact alignment? Someone who is NG could still be a great cleric of a church of LG or True Neutral easily.

[Sartharina]

Sigh. Semantics. Do you really think a Paladin or Good Cleric is going to get away with double crossing the church unless the church itself is corrupt, and thus, out of favor with the God him or herself?

Common sense, please.

A god/goddess and their church are assumed to be in alignment unless the whole plot is that they're not. But if they aren't, that's the whole plot.The cleric/paladin might be the Apostate, out of sync with the church, but still somewhat aligned with the deity - for example, an LN cleric/paladin of Heironeous.

[Angelalex242]

I can only conclude you two live in a much, much darker world then I'm envisioning, World of Darkness level bad, even, where even good people are out to backstab everyone else and take what they want for their own gain at every opportunity. I tend to live in a more forthright, honest world, where the only people backstabbing and screwing people are the evil faiths.

[Zeuel]

I assume even evil people help each other out depending on what kind of evil they are. The Scarlet Crusade type evil would be no different from good aligned churches I imagine while evil type churches might help each other out for selfish reasons as long as it furthers their church's power.

[Falka]

No they don't. Divine classes answer to their god (if they have one), not their church.

That depends a lot of the campaign setting that you are playing. I am positively sure that at least in the Forgotten Realms, you cannot become a cleric of a faith if the church does not allow it. Take for example, Liriel Baenre, who tried to join Eilistraee's faith, but Qilue Veladorn disallowed it because she blamed her for the death of her daughter Ysolde.

Liriel had to become a cleric of Mystra in the end.

Also, the PHB in several editions mentions that class levels and hierarchy in the church are closely tied. Also, the only way to look for an atonnement spell involves getting in touch with a member of your faith, so it's highly unlikely that they would be keen to help you if you are a well known apostate.

[rlc]

Sigh. Semantics. Do you really think a Paladin or Good Cleric is going to get away with double crossing the church unless the church itself is corrupt, and thus, out of favor with the God him or herself?

Common sense, please.

A god/goddess and their church are assumed to be in alignment unless the whole plot is that they're not. But if they aren't, that's the whole plot.

maybe there are different denominations of some gods' followers, like in real life. more than one christianity, more than one islam, etc. so, there's more than one way to worship <insert god here>. that way, it doesn't have to be double crossing anyone (unless you want it to be), the paladin can just realize a different denomination and it doesn't necessarily have to be the entire plot.

[Slipperychicken]

5e looks like it really wants you to work for your magic items. I see no inherent problem with a church possessing one or two that the PCs might be able to access, but it shouldn't be as easy as saying to the head priest "Oh I need this to slay the dragon" and them saying "Alright here you go". Maybe the magic item needs some kind of lengthy attunement process, or maybe it needs to be reconsecrated, or maybe it's been stolen. Simply being part of the same religious order is just not an adequate gateway to getting pimped out gear.

I think the lack of guaranteed magic items in core is just part of the design philosophy. They want to keep the core game as simple and stripped-down as they can (to make things easier on gamers), but each group can choose to use the numerous variant subsystems (I can see magic items and WBL being added in later) if they really want to.


Also, I figure that if churches have magic items to dole out to divine classes, other organizations would do the same for their associated classes. A military or militant organization (such as a state, mercenary, insurgent, or terrorist group) might let a high-level Fighter or Barbarian borrow a +1 longsword to eliminate a threat, an assassin network might lend a Rogue a +1 dagger or bow, an established monastic order might give a Monk a set of +1 bodywraps, a druidic council might let a Druid use a +1 sickle, a mage's guild might give a high-level Wizard access to useful spells or a magic item, and so on.

[Knaight]

In addition, these churches have been around for thousands of years. During those thousands of years, **** happens. Thus, the churches have standard procedures for what to do when **** happens. Being Lawful, such churches are going to be very organized about dealing with it. This, of course, applies to LN and LE churches as well, and god help you if you cross the LE church, cause not only will they take their item back, they'll torture you to death as a dark sacrifice to their god for the evulz in the process.

Who says the churches have been around for thousands of years? That's a very, very long time for an institution to last, particularly when it comes to a particular building and congregation. Heck, that's a very long time for a particular religious sect to last, particularly without having major changes and upheavals. It works if you assume medieval stasis (which has always annoyed me, personally), but that's about it.

I'm not saying that the church relics model isn't a functional one, but I wouldn't call it a safe assumption. It's very setting dependent.

[Slipperychicken]

Who says the churches have been around for thousands of years? That's a very, very long time for an institution to last, particularly when it comes to a particular building and congregation. Heck, that's a very long time for a particular religious sect to last, particularly without having major changes and upheavals. It works if you assume medieval stasis (which has always annoyed me, personally), but that's about it.

I still believe that one can take many historical time-periods in fantasy and divide them by 10 or 100 to get a more reasonable value. Authors seem to like throwing around such huge, round numbers, as if doing so adds a sense of grandeur and significance to their writing. Even the Fallout series suffers from this, taking place 200 years after an apocalyptic event, yet having objects degrade as if it were only 2 years (that Salisbury Steak is still good to eat, aside from the radiation, and the box looks good as new), with some people claiming to remember the pre-war era.

[Naanomi]

I still believe that one can take many historical time-periods in fantasy and divide them by 10 or 100 to get a more reasonable value.
Part of the problem is the long life span of some races. In my homebrew setting I wanted only a very few Dwarves and Elves to have survived the war against the Big Bad; whereas no living Human remembers it. That means I had to have it take place 300 years ago or so, just so at least a good portion of Dwarves and Elves would have died of old age.

[Knaight]

I still believe that one can take many historical time-periods in fantasy and divide them by 10 or 100 to get a more reasonable value. Authors seem to like throwing around such huge, round numbers, as if doing so adds a sense of grandeur and significance to their writing. Even the Fallout series suffers from this, taking place 200 years after an apocalyptic event, yet having objects degrade as if it were only 2 years (that Salisbury Steak is still good to eat, aside from the radiation, and the box looks good as new), with some people claiming to remember the pre-war era.

They really, really do. Sometimes you can bump those numbers up yet further - Numenera is set either hundreds of millions or billions of years in the future, and that's just enough time for society to build up, collapse, and repeat this procedure 9 times. Hundreds of millions of years are nor necessary.

[Tvtyrant]

I still believe that one can take many historical time-periods in fantasy and divide them by 10 or 100 to get a more reasonable value. Authors seem to like throwing around such huge, round numbers, as if doing so adds a sense of grandeur and significance to their writing. Even the Fallout series suffers from this, taking place 200 years after an apocalyptic event, yet having objects degrade as if it were only 2 years (that Salisbury Steak is still good to eat, aside from the radiation, and the box looks good as new), with some people claiming to remember the pre-war era.

I sort of agree, except that many nations lasted hundreds or even thousands of years. Old Kingdom Egypt lasted about 500 years and started nearly 5,000 years ago. There were two more "kingdoms" of 200-300 years each and long lasting interregnums, and all of this before the "Iron Age."

1600 years is a long time for a civilization or religion, except Catholicism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Caananite civilization, and dozens of others. Civilization on Earth where its individuals live between 40 and 80 years on average is up to 11,000 years old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) (oldest towns in Mesopotamia) and it stands to reason that longer lived races would have longer lived civilizations.

[Angelalex242]

On Faerun, at least, religion lasts as long as the god in charge of it does. They only die out when the god in question does. Because the god can always drop by the prime and remind his followers that the glowing guy down the street is the one they're working for.

[Naanomi]

On Faerun, at least, religion lasts as long as the god in charge of it does. They only die out when the god in question does. Because the god can always drop by the prime and remind his followers that the glowing guy down the street is the one they're working for.
However, even of Faerun there are different sects and cults that worship the same God in different ways; sometimes in conflict with each-other. In a world where belief = power for a God, it doesn't hurt to be accommodating for people who want to send worship your way in different styles.

[rlc]

you'd think people would only serve the gods who show up the most

[Knaight]

I sort of agree, except that many nations lasted hundreds or even thousands of years. Old Kingdom Egypt lasted about 500 years and started nearly 5,000 years ago. There were two more "kingdoms" of 200-300 years each and long lasting interregnums, and all of this before the "Iron Age."
Old Kingdom Egypt was among the most stable civilizations ever to exist, if not the most stable civilization ever to exist. Even then, there were changes. Meanwhile, elsewhere you have the gigantic mess that was Mesopotamian civilizations, you have the rise and fall of numerous city states there and over much of the Mediterranean, you have India which was a changing set of warring kingdoms, you have China, which oscillated between a stable civilization and a bunch of warring states despite having pretty impressive cultural unity.

Plus, that being before the iron age helped. By the medieval period, dynasties were generally shorter, countries were forming and deforming faster, so on and so forth. Technological change was even more pronounced - you have things like the explosion of watermills in medieval civilization and the industrialization that followed it, the bulk of which was within a century. You have the dramatic changes in military fortifications from 900-1300. So on and so forth. Fantasy routinely has a ridiculous technological stasis, well after the period where that made sense - if they want paleolithic stasis, fine. There were comparatively few developments. Medieval? Not happening.


1600 years is a long time for a civilization or religion, except Catholicism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Caananite civilization, and dozens of others. Civilization on Earth where its individuals live between 40 and 80 years on average is up to 11,000 years old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) (oldest towns in Mesopotamia) and it stands to reason that longer lived races would have longer lived civilizations.
Sure, but those generally have changed dramatically during the period. Take Catholicism - even if you completely ignore the religious aspect, you have things like the shifting of power from one geographic area to another, the building and abandonment of tons of churches, so on and so forth.

[Naanomi]

Old Kingdom Egypt was among the most stable civilizations ever to exist, if not the most stable civilization ever to exist.
Now imagine it being made of Elves, with 10 times the lifespan and the same number of generations making a 50,000 year empire straight out of fantasy. I blame long-lived races and their cultural dominance for the social and technological stagnation. Also the periodic world-shattering evils that seem to rise and fall to reset everything.

[Tvtyrant]

Old Kingdom Egypt was among the most stable civilizations ever to exist, if not the most stable civilization ever to exist. Even then, there were changes. Meanwhile, elsewhere you have the gigantic mess that was Mesopotamian civilizations, you have the rise and fall of numerous city states there and over much of the Mediterranean, you have India which was a changing set of warring kingdoms, you have China, which oscillated between a stable civilization and a bunch of warring states despite having pretty impressive cultural unity.

Plus, that being before the iron age helped. By the medieval period, dynasties were generally shorter, countries were forming and deforming faster, so on and so forth. Technological change was even more pronounced - you have things like the explosion of watermills in medieval civilization and the industrialization that followed it, the bulk of which was within a century. You have the dramatic changes in military fortifications from 900-1300. So on and so forth. Fantasy routinely has a ridiculous technological stasis, well after the period where that made sense - if they want paleolithic stasis, fine. There were comparatively few developments. Medieval? Not happening.


Sure, but those generally have changed dramatically during the period. Take Catholicism - even if you completely ignore the religious aspect, you have things like the shifting of power from one geographic area to another, the building and abandonment of tons of churches, so on and so forth.

I don't disagree that there are a lot of changes on the ground, I just don't agree that a setting is wrong for using their time frames. Most of the changes, like moderate changes in fortification design or wind mills instead water or donkey powered mills are not going to be important for a campaign. The Roman Army changed constantly, and the idealization of it is a mismashed snap-shot. That doesn't mean a game set in pseudo-Rome needs to focus on the shift between the Punic Wars equipment, the Marian reforms, and the Late Empire when professional soldiers were being replaced by conscription and foreign mercenaries.

Take Netheril from Forgotten Realms. It goes from a group of villages without access to metal or magic and develops into an empire with spell casters and far ranging anti-Orc genocide patrols in about 1,000 years, and then stops progressing because of the focus on flying Wizard conclaves which basically siphons the upper and middle classes out of the country. The only real problem is that the characters involved at this point are immortal, so the Golden Age through the fall takes about 4,000 years because all of the Wizards are there to keep their little civilization stagnant. But right up until the birth of the Chronomancer it is actually moving about as fast as a real life civilization.

Edit: Another issue with applying the real world to D&D is that a lot of technology is either impossible or meaningless in the setting. Spelljammer's cannons were inferior to wands of Fireball, for instance, and handguns were only a little better than crossbows. Magic is much, much better than anything real life had until at least the 19th century but fantasy conventions forbid the creation of arcanology because it makes mundanes appear useless.

[Angelalex242]

Not at all. Magitek actually makes mundanes more useful. Ask Final Fantasy 6 whether those suits of magitek armor helped or not.

[Tvtyrant]

Not at all. Magitek actually makes mundanes more useful. Ask Final Fantasy 6 whether those suits of magitek armor helped or not.

I don't know about you, but my mundane players tend to want to be Barbarians and actually be mundane, not mech pilots.

[bulbaquil]

Only a few paltry dozen millennia of medieval stasis? Bah. Ten million years without any new inventions or fundamental paradigm shifts is more like it.


I don't know about you, but my mundane players tend to want to be Barbarians and actually be mundane, not mech pilots.

Sounds about like me. If I wanted to be a mech pilot, I'd play a wizard.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't know about you, but my mundane players tend to want to be Barbarians and actually be mundane, not mech pilots.

And they use nonmagical weapons, right? And obviously no magical gauntlets, armour, rings or amulets.

[hawklost]

And they use nonmagical weapons, right? And obviously no magical gauntlets, armour, rings or amulets.

Are you really trying to equate using magical weapons and armor to a full fledged magitech mech?

[Tvtyrant]

[QUOTE=Yuki Akuma;17955644]And they use nonmagical weapons, right? And obviously no magical gauntlets, armour, rings or amulets.[/QUOTE
Many of my players express the desire to, yes. There is a reason so many people bemoan the Christmas Tree on this forum, and why Vow of Poverty fixes are all over the place.

[Yuki Akuma]

Are you really trying to equate using magical weapons and armor to a full fledged magitech mech?

Nope! I am, however, trying to equate using magical weapons and armor to magitech in general.

How is a pair of gauntlets that set your Strength score to 19 and a suit of plate armour +1 any different from a magitech powered armour suit that sets your Strength to 19 and has an AC of 21?

Alternatively, how is a Crossbow of Burning any different to a magitech laser rifle?

[Knaight]

Nope! I am, however, trying to equate using magical weapons and armor to magitech in general.

How is a pair of gauntlets that set your Strength score to 19 and a suit of plate armour +1 any different from a magitech powered armour suit that sets your Strength to 19 and has an AC of 21?

Alternatively, how is a Crossbow of Burning any different to a magitech laser rifle?

In the first case, they're pretty similar - there may or may not be an aesthetic difference, and there are two parts to it, but that's about it. The crossbow and the magitech laser rifle are a completely different deal. The crossbow is an actual weapon, which uses the exact same weapon skills as a non-magical crossbow, and which still operates as a crossbow without magic. The magitech laser rifle is basically a wand, with a mechanism completely different than any other weapon. The aesthetic clashes really strongly, whereas the fantasy power armor is basically just plate armor that magically makes the wearer stronger.

Also, I generally do prefer that characters aren't decked out in a bunch of magic items, where many of them are using completely mundane equipment, so there's that. Magitech has its place, but I wouldn't use it as a default D&D assumption - it works in some settings, and not so much in others.

[Angelalex242]

Well, for starters, magitek is more of a Final Fantasy thing, and D&D sometimes has trouble translating well to Final Fantasy. However, you could create a magitek suit easily enough. The basic model just fires 10d6 of fireball, cone of cold, and lightning bolt, and the healing function is cure critical wounds.

[pwykersotz]

I, for one, approve of this new thread tangent. :smallbiggrin:

[Angelalex242]

The 4 'special' abilities (That only Terra uses in FF6, and Gogo in Cyan's dream)...

would include an AOE Poison spell (Mass Poison) combined with an AOE Cause Disease (Bio Blaster), Finger of Death (Banisher), Mass Insanity (Confuser), and finally...Mage's Sword (Tek Missile)

[Knaight]

Well, for starters, magitek is more of a Final Fantasy thing, and D&D sometimes has trouble translating well to Final Fantasy. However, you could create a magitek suit easily enough. The basic model just fires 10d6 of fireball, cone of cold, and lightning bolt, and the healing function is cure critical wounds.

You could, easily. The mechanics can handle it just fine. The question is whether you want to, and even if you do whether it should be standard. Some settings it just won't fit with at all. Other settings it will fit with as a rare thing, and yet others will fit with fantasy Samus being downright standard.

Again, I am totally cool with a fantasy setting in which magic is very ubiquitous and technological, in which magical power armor is the norm, in which standard military strategy includes things like taking several squads on magic carpets, having them jump from the carpets and magically slow their falls, then start shooting things with their magitech guns. There are other settings in which the fantasy equivalent of aerial insertion of paratroopers is horribly out of place. Standard D&D is in the latter category for me.