Wall Of Salt Abuse

[JerichoRehling]

I am a fairly new DnD player. I was reading Sandstorm, and noticed the spell Wall Of Salt. Unless I'm really mistaken, this spell seems absurdly powerful. Not for its combat potential, but for its money making potential. It is permanent, and you create a 5-foot cube of salt for every caster level. So at tenth level, you're creating 250 cubic feet of salt, or 31,214 pounds. (Number derived by density of halite at 2.16 g/cm3.) Which, by the DMG, is about 150,000 gold. For a 4th level spell slot.

I'm assuming you could use this to create your own artificial salt mine which you would mine over time, to avoid flooding the market. I was merely wondering if I'm interpreting this correctly, and if anyone has any suggestions on how to use this without making my DM TOO mad. :smallamused:

[eggynack]

Yeah, this is a pretty well documented trick. Your numbers are a bit off, however, as the spell only creates a 5*5 foot square of salt, with the final dimension measured in inches/level. Last time I did the math, it came out to about 25,250 GP off of a casting at level seven. Still a lot though.

[Milodiah]

The attitude I've always taken to the "manufacture iron/salt/whatever with magic" issue (trust me, it comes up a lot) is to say that since it was created wholly by magic, it isn't of the necessary quality to be used for the purposes people inevitably think of when they come up with conjure-thing-get-rich-quick plans. Iron wouldn't be of a necessary quality or composition to be forged into anything useful, for example.

If you wouldn't mind putting up the actual phrasing of the spell, that would be nice. Because unless it somehow specifies that it is in fact NaCl, I would totally apply the more general chemistry definition of salt just to screw with the players.

"What, you thought it was table salt? It's actually potassium dichromate, you should probably roll some Fortitude saves right about now."

Besides, economics simply says no. You jack up supply, then the resulting inequality between demand and price will cause the market equilibrium to stabilize at a much less desirable price.

(Full disclosure as an economist, though, if you were to continue the cycle of large-scale deliberate dumps of magically-produced salt on the market, eventually its viability as a non-magically-produced commodity would approach zero, and if you were persistent enough, magic salt would end up displacing "organic" salt almost entirely. Not to say you would have the monopoly on it, of course...the other wizards would catch on eventually, eh?)

[eggynack]

If you wouldn't mind putting up the actual phrasing of the spell, that would be nice. Because unless it somehow specifies that it is in fact NaCl, I would totally apply the more general chemistry definition of salt just to screw with the players.
That's somewhat irrelevant. Wall of salt only specifies salt rather than table salt, but there are similarly no limits defined where the game puts down the price for said salt. If wall of salt creates some obscure general chemistry salt, then by the same token, you should be allowed to sell some obscure general chemistry salt as a trade good.

[Psyren]

"What, you thought it was table salt? It's actually potassium dichromate, you should probably roll some Fortitude saves right about now."

Don't you mean "the hapless NPCs you swindled with this should probably roll some Fortitude saves right about now?"

But yeah, Pathfinder sidestepped this by making Wall of Iron et al. explicitly worthless without elaborating as to how.

[Milodiah]

Well, those nameless NPCs would eventually say, "Hang on a second, this salt is bright orange. Also it killed Thomas. Maybe we should hunt those guys down and get our money back."

[Milodiah]

That's somewhat irrelevant. Wall of salt only specifies salt rather than table salt, but there are similarly no limits defined where the game puts down the price for said salt. If wall of salt creates some obscure general chemistry salt, then by the same token, you should be allowed to sell some obscure general chemistry salt as a trade good.

If you're going to take the 100% RAW stance, sure. But NaCl is the only salt usable as "salt", and the stuff you've just produced is practically worthless in a quasi-medieval economy.

But really, if you're going to be that RAW, why not just go back to chopping ladders into poles for profit?

[Sith_Happens]

But really, if you're going to be that RAW, why not just go back to chopping ladders into poles for profit?

Not nearly as fast.:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Well, those nameless NPCs would eventually say, "Hang on a second, this salt is bright orange. Also it killed Thomas. Maybe we should hunt those guys down and get our money back."

You mean the three jolly gnomes who sold it to you? Hope you had your True Seeing eyedrops in :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Well, those nameless NPCs would eventually say, "Hang on a second, this salt is bright orange. Also it killed Thomas. Maybe we should hunt those guys down and get our money back."
Whatever we don't know, we pretty much do know that the salt produced by wall of salt isn't horribly toxic, because if it were, there'd be some sort of effect like that in the spell itself. Seems like it'd be a pretty important thing to know, even if you're not selling the stuff. If you're speaking particularly to edibility, then we return to irrelevance. The NPC's presumably know that this salt isn't edible when they buy it, and are merely picking up some as a trade good. There's no sort of onus on trade goods to be especially useful.

Edit:
If you're going to take the 100% RAW stance, sure. But NaCl is the only salt usable as "salt", and the stuff you've just produced is practically worthless in a quasi-medieval economy.

But really, if you're going to be that RAW, why not just go back to chopping ladders into poles for profit?
You're the one taking a 100% RAW stance, arguing that wall of salt doesn't produce the thing that's most commonly recognized as salt. I'm merely expanding your 100% RAW stance to cover other things, which is a perfectly fair maneuver. You're currently arguing that this salt over here can totally be any kind of salt, and that other salt over there has to be one specific kind of salt, and there's no real support for that perspective.

[Milodiah]

...where in the rules does the phrase "potassium dichromate" appear? Didn't know that was in the books. I'm not discussing RAW, just like you aren't. Perhaps the potassium dichromate example wasn't what I should have used, because it was just an ass-pull for the novelty of it. But my assertion still stands that if I were the DM, they wouldn't end up with quality, marketable salt that was the salt we know, which is what I was originally saying before this happened.

[bjoern]

Or just sacrifice it to ancestral relic for a free magic item. Load it up with gp for a staff of wish, then rinse and repeat.
I'm going to have to tease my DM with that lol.

[JerichoRehling]

Ah, my mistake. I read it as cube rather than square.

And, yeah - the supply and demand issue was one I had thought about. Thats why I thought about maybe creating an artificial mine with it - reducing the harvesting of the resource to a smaller scale, so its distributed gradually over time rather than a massive flood of the market...

I confess I hadn't thought about the quality and composition of the salt. I simply assumed that since NaCl was the most common salt that "salt" refers to, that it would default to the general rather than the obscure. If my DM decides on using that trick, though, maybe I could convince him to allow me to attempt to control the type of salt made using a Spellcraft check or something.

So, assuming even that smaller gold value, it doesn't seem unreasonable to drop in once or twice a week, replenish the salt in the artificial mine (do any Metamagic feats apply to Wall spells?) and set a few commoners to mining it, run a merchant's guild to distribute it over the country (no local salt sources, I asked. Which I assume also means no other mages employing this trick.) Population of the region is about 14 million.) Would that likely still flood the economy? Assuming six castings, that's still a weekly income of over a hundred thousand a week, probably a little under after accounting for business expenses, and probably only a few thousand pounds of salt (after I adjust my numbers, I'll know for sure.) I'm unsure about the average salt consumption of a population that large per week.

[eggynack]

...where in the rules does the phrase "potassium dichromate" appear? Didn't know that was in the books. I'm not discussing RAW, just like you aren't. Perhaps the potassium dichromate example wasn't what I should have used, because it was just an ass-pull for the novelty of it. But my assertion still stands that if I were the DM, they wouldn't end up with quality, marketable salt that was the salt we know, which is what I was originally saying before this happened.
Salt is salt. If they can end up with something that isn't the quality marketable salt we know, then they can presumably sell that as a trade good, because there is no differentiation in the meaning of the term between the spell and the trade good. There's no reason to think the two are talking about two different things. That's the RAW of it. Pick whatever definition you like, but be consistent about it.

[Malroth]

The Dnd Economy is completely borked anyway, You've got employable commoners who work for less than the cost of a cup of beer, Vanilla beans more valuable per weight than Platinum, Weapons worth more than entire nations GDP avalible for sale in every village and people splitting ladders in half making more than Surgeons. The Correct way to deal with some bizzare super effective WBL breaking scheme like this is to have the Encounters step up to the new situation. Negotiating the location of the Local Shiek in charge of the salt monopoly, Bribing your way past his Djinni Guard, Convincing him to break his deal with the Slavers in the salt mine to buy your salt instead, Fighting off the Assassins sent by the Slavers to Kindap the Shiek for breaking the deal, Raiding the Slavers mine only to find it run by a higher lv caster and He's been using wall of Salt himself the whole time, are All valid CR encounters for the action of "selling my magical salt" and should balance out to be about what you'd expect to get from loot if they'd just gone adventuring. Once the first batch is sold let the local rumor mill find out about the trick and nobody trades in salt anymore since its now cheaper than bricks.

[JusticeZero]

Well, even if it IS making sea salt, sea salt requires a lot of processing to be made useful; sea salts contain a mix of table salt (NaCl), Epsom salt (MgSO4·7H2O), and other interesting salts and evaporite minerals. It isn't necessarily spell to table good.
That said, it's not the only or best way to mint money.

[georgie_leech]

Salt is salt. If they can end up with something that isn't the quality marketable salt we know, then they can presumably sell that as a trade good, because there is no differentiation in the meaning of the term between the spell and the trade good. There's no reason to think the two are talking about two different things. That's the RAW of it. Pick whatever definition you like, but be consistent about it.

Like D&D is ever consistent with its word usage. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

Like D&D is ever consistent with its word usage. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) :smalltongue:
Well, sure, but there's no real context here that would indicate a different meaning.

[daremetoidareyo]

Wall of salt abuse is not necessarily broken. Are you seriously going to find a buyer who will pay retail? You can probably collect 50%. If you set up a salt mine, what wages we talking? Who oversees the miners? Do you trust him? How often do you check in? Who's your distributor? What is his cut? If you want to get free money from your salt empire, let's go. You are going to have to work for it, the same way a hydro electric dam isnt a ticket to free money so much as a boring career.

If you want to really make money with your back of the envelope salt summoning, I say you have to earn it: one excruciating small business man step at a time. This hopeful economy only works because market mechanics are generalized for a Roving band of adventurers. If we require a more fleshed out economic system, we can talk about your hiring process and connection building. The thing is, I can only run an adventure about 3 hours a week, and there are three other PCs more interested in slaying liches and bedding succubi with that time. They'll keep the salt mogul in line. I didn't sign up to play caster level tycoon, but I'll sure as heck jump on the grenade to make get a PC to respect social economy.

[eggynack]

Wall of salt abuse is not necessarily broken. Are you seriously going to find a buyer who will pay retail? You can probably collect 50%. If you set up a salt mine, what wages we talking? Who oversees the miners? Do you trust him? How often do you check in? Who's your distributor? What is his cut? If you want to get free money from your salt empire, let's go. You are going to have to work for it, the same way a hydro electric dam isnt a ticket to free money so much as a boring career.

If you want to really make money with your back of the envelope salt summoning, I say you have to earn it: one excruciating small business man step at a time. This hopeful economy only works because market mechanics are generalized for a Roving band of adventurers. If we require a more fleshed out economic system, we can talk about your hiring process and connection building. The thing is, I can only run an adventure about 3 hours a week, and there are three other PCs more interested in slaying liches and bedding succubi with that time. They'll keep the salt mogul in line. I didn't sign up to play caster level tycoon, but I'll sure as heck jump on the grenade to make get a PC to respect social economy.
By the book, salt is essentially of the same value and level of currency-being as gold. That simplifies things a lot, in terms of things like distribution, because you just kinda hand the salt over to the guy whose items you want, and things are cool. You also don't exactly need to mine the salt all that much, even if that was the OP's premise for some reason (it's not like you're increasing sustainability like that), so that solves some other problems. There's also very little excruciating about it, as a single casting gives you a massive hunk of cash. It's a pretty solid plan, really. You can put in weird house rules to make the whole process less effective, or even go with the Tippy method of spontaneously exploding folks who go too far over wealth by level, but as written, wall of salt actually works well as a get rich quick scheme.

[Andion Isurand]

What if the spell created a wholly disorganized mixed variety of salts, making the harvesting and purification process too labor intensive to bother with? ....just as acid spells don't typically produce a single "default" type of acid... given how many things spell-created acid seems to react with.

[eggynack]

What if the spell created a wholly disorganized mixed variety of salts, making the harvesting and purification process too labor intensive to bother with? ....just as acid spells don't typically produce a single "default" type of acid... given how many things spell-created acid seems to react with.
I think we still return to the main point here. If a wholly disorganized mixed variety of salts can somehow be considered "salt" for the purposes of its creation with wall of salt, then you can equally consider that same wholly disorganized mixed variety of salts "salt" for the purposes of salt as a trade good. You thus wouldn't really have to do any separation of the salt, as it would qualify regardless.

[Brookshw]

Well, sure, but there's no real context here that would indicate a different meaning.

Didn't we just do this? I'm pretty sure we just did this....

Back to the OP, talk to your DM about this, they probably aren't going to appreciate the rules abuse. Probably not a great idea to use the spell to break the game, unless, I don't know, you hate your group or something.

[SaintRidley]

And here I was hoping this thread would be about ways to use Wall of Salt to fend off heavily-templated snails.

[Brookshw]

And here I was hoping this thread would be about ways to use Wall of Salt to fend off heavily-templated snails.

What, and not get to read the epic poems they write with the slime trails? Never!

[eggynack]

Didn't we just do this? I'm pretty sure we just did this....

Pretty close, certainly. D&D 3.5 semantics arguments tend to follow reasonably similar beats, though there are always nuances. For example, in this case, you actually just start out with a competing pair of dictionary definitions, and I would seek to prove that the term has the same definition in both cases, whatever that definition is, and the opposition would seek to prove that they have different definitions. Were I on the opposing side, I would probably go with the idea that salt's very nature as a trade good in that use of the term implicitly restricts that use to edible salt, though actual-me would counter that there is no fundamental restriction on what constitutes a trade good, and that the presence of stuff like copper on the list sets the degree of theoretically necessary utility pretty low.

[Brookshw]

Pretty close, certainly. D&D 3.5 semantics arguments tend to follow reasonably similar beats, though there are always nuances. For example, in this case, you actually just start out with a competing pair of dictionary definitions, and I would seek to prove that the term has the same definition in both cases, whatever that definition is, and the opposition would seek to prove that they have different definitions. Were I on the opposing side, I would probably go with the idea that salt's very nature as a trade good in that use of the term implicitly restricts that use to edible salt, though actual-me would counter that there is no fundamental restriction on what constitutes a trade good, and that the presence of stuff like copper on the list sets the degree of theoretically necessary utility pretty low.

Yeah, I'm going to skip all that and propose an alternative.

You're an adventurer, you make money by adventuring, not by being a merchant. The game ain't variable costs based on markets and balanced budgets. Now go kill a dragon.

[eggynack]

You're an adventurer, you make money by adventuring, not by being a merchant. The game ain't variable costs based on markets and balanced budgets. Now go kill a dragon.
Well, sure, that's always one possible solution to cash problems. It's good to know about all of these crazy chunks of trickery though. Makes life more interesting. It helps that this is one of the more druid aligned WBL breakers.

[LordErebus12]

And here I was hoping this thread would be about ways to use Wall of Salt to fend off heavily-templated snails.

I'll just leave this here...


The farmer had been having a good day right up until he caught sight of an enormous snail emerging from the river near his fields to start eating away at his crops. Immediately he leaped into action, bringing his hoe down on the creature's head. The tool snapped in half. The creature barely noticed. The farmer was dumbstruck, for it had been a masterwork tool. So he goaded some of his bulls into charging the giant gastropod in the hopes that either it would be scared off, or that the bulls would gore it to death. They plowed headlong into the creature's shell with a sickening crack. The farmer looked on expectantly, hoping to see the snail die as its shell split asunder. Instead, his anticipation turned to stupefaction as his strongest bulls fell to the ground dead, their heads twisted at unnatural angles. Turning to look at the bizarre creature--which continued to feed corn stalks into its mouth as if nothing had happened--the farmer raised his hands and loosed a cry that was equal parts indignation and incredulity: "What the Hell?!"



Giant Whelk (Cr 9)
N Large Vermin (Aquatic)


Init/Senses
+0 / Listen -1, Spot -1


AC
27, Touch 9, Flat-Footed 28; Shell
(-1 Size, +18 Natural)


HD
184 (16 hp)


Fort/Ref/Will
+17/+5/+4


Speed
10ft (2 Squares), Swim 20ft (Poor)


Melee
Slam +16 (3d6+7) or


Melee
2 Tentacles +11 (2d8+4)


Space/Reach
10 ft./5 ft.


Base Atk/Grp
+12/+17


Special Actions
Gastric Slime, Shell


Abilities
Str 20, Dex 11, Con 24, Int —, Wis 8, Cha 8


Special Qualities
Shell (+20 Natural, DR 15/Adamantine), Vermin Traits, Amphibious


Skills
Climb +5, Listen -1, Spot -1, Swim +5


Advancement
17-30 (Large), 31-44 (Huge), 45-60 (Gargantuan)



Gastric Slime
Once every third round, a giant whelk can expel a five-foot globule of digestive acid at any target within line of sight and a thirty foot radius. The globule is a ranged touch attack that deals 2d10+4 points of acid damage to the target and whatever equipment it is carrying. On a critical hit, the target is also blinded for 2d4 rounds.

Shell
A giant whelk can retreat into its shell as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. While its body rests within the protective confines of its shell, the whelk increases its natural armor bonus to +38 and gains damage reduction 15/adamantine. It also cannot attack or move while in this state.

Vermin Traits
Immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns and morale effects).

Amphibious
Giant whelks can breathe both air and water, and can spend an equal amount of their time in either environment.



General Information
Giant Whelks are omnivorous, amphibious snails that originated on the ocean floor as much smaller creatures before unexplained circumstances caused them to undergo a tremendous growth spurt. They have since migrated inland, taking up residence in the rivers and swamps where they maintain their simple lairs. Totally omnivorous, they will eat anything that comes into contact with their feeler-tentacles, be it rotting flesh, plant matter or tree roots, to name but a few staples of their diet. The mindless creatures are quite simple, content to feed on whatever they find, but they will defend themselves if they believe that they are under attack. If overwhelmed by its opponents, a giant whelk can retreat into its hard, granite-like shell until the attackers leave.

Strategies and Tactics
When forced to fight, a giant whelk will bludgeon a single opponent with its tough head, following it up with a strike from two of its four tentacles. If the enemy is out of range, it can spit a wad of gastric slime at a distant opponent, dissolving his gear and leaving him blind. If it is under attack from three or more opponents, it can withdraw into its shell, increasing its AC significantly and granting it damage reduction 15/adamantine. If even this proves insufficient, the creature may attempt to retreat.

Ecology
Giant Whelks can be found in any wetland, near rivers, on the sea shore or on the sea floor. They move slightly faster in water than they do on land.

Typical Physical Characteristics
a typical giant whelk is twelve feet long and six feet wide, and is about five feet tall. The creature weighs about a ton. It is essentially a giant snail with four tentacles on its face: two for sensing food, and two for attacking. The design of the shell and coloration varies by individual.

Alignment
As completely mindless, instinct-driven creatures, giant whelks have no understanding of the concepts of good and evil. They are always neutral in alignment.

Advanced Creatures
Giant whelks become more powerful with age, often growing to a substantially larger size. There have been reports of whelks that were fifty feet long and twenty feet tall, capable of dissolving and devouring entire mountains over the course of a day, though such creatures are thankfully rare.

[Darrin]

It is permanent, and you create a 5-foot cube of salt for every caster level. So at tenth level, you're creating 250 cubic feet of salt, or 31,214 pounds. (Number derived by density of halite at 2.16 g/cm3.) Which, by the DMG, is about 150,000 gold.


You're using electron density. Bulk density, according to ASTM D 632 (http://www.saltworks.us/salt_info/si_WhatIsSalt.asp), is 72 lbs per cubic foot. It may actually be higher, due to moisture content, but I think we can assume the spell creates salt without any additional moisture. Your volume is off as well, because the wall is 1 inch thick per caster level, not one cubic foot per caster level. A 10th level caster creates 208.33 cubic feet, or 15000 pounds of salt. At 5 GP per pound, that should be 75,000 GP.

A wand of wall of salt costs 21,000 GP. 7th level casting, so each charge produces 7344 lbs or 36,720 GP. 50 charges, so that would be 1,836,000 GP for the whole shebang.

It's not quite as effective as a Black Lotus Djinn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10040483&postcount=5) (produces 19140 vials of black lotus extract with a market value of 86 million GP).



I was merely wondering if I'm interpreting this correctly, and if anyone has any suggestions on how to use this without making my DM TOO mad. :smallamused:

I actually prefer to use the Djinn trick to make 20 cubic feet of saffron, as it's so rare and hard to produce that it makes sense that lots of people would actually want 20 cubic feet of it, although there may be some gnashing of teeth over determining the bulk density. But as an added bonus, you can make jokes about going on a Kessel Run or chant ominously about "The spice must flow..."

[Graypairofsocks]

The Dnd Economy is completely borked anyway, You've got employable commoners who work for less than the cost of a cup of beer, Vanilla beans more valuable per weight than Platinum, Weapons worth more than entire nations GDP avalible for sale in every village and people splitting ladders in half making more than Surgeons.

I think vanilla is actually worth a lot in real life.

[Rubik]

I think vanilla is actually worth a lot in real life.Uh oh. I just ate some real vanilla ice cream. Maybe I should've sold it on the open market, instead.

[georgie_leech]

Uh oh. I just ate some real vanilla ice cream. Maybe I should've sold it on the open market, instead.

The amount of real vanilla in vanilla ice cream is very little. That said, Platinum is actually more expensive by weight by a factor of almost 100, so meh.

[Graypairofsocks]

Also most of the vanilla commonly used is synthetic IIRC.


And yeah good point about the weight.

[Brookshw]

I think vanilla is actually worth a lot in real life.

Absolutely whole vanilla bean is pricey, saffron's worse.

[Vogonjeltz]

I am a fairly new DnD player. I was reading Sandstorm, and noticed the spell Wall Of Salt. Unless I'm really mistaken, this spell seems absurdly powerful. Not for its combat potential, but for its money making potential. It is permanent, and you create a 5-foot cube of salt for every caster level. So at tenth level, you're creating 250 cubic feet of salt, or 31,214 pounds. (Number derived by density of halite at 2.16 g/cm3.) Which, by the DMG, is about 150,000 gold. For a 4th level spell slot.

I'm assuming you could use this to create your own artificial salt mine which you would mine over time, to avoid flooding the market. I was merely wondering if I'm interpreting this correctly, and if anyone has any suggestions on how to use this without making my DM TOO mad.


Didn't we just do this? I'm pretty sure we just did this....

Back to the OP, talk to your DM about this, they probably aren't going to appreciate the rules abuse. Probably not a great idea to use the spell to break the game, unless, I don't know, you hate your group or something.

I wouldn't worry about if it's possible or even allowed to be sold, I take those to be given as true.

The problem isn't having it, the problem is that it still has to be mined. The wall itself has potential, but until someone actually processes it into a trade good, it isn't worth anything to anyone.

Same issue with a wall of iron, worse actually...it's ridiculously heavy, so nobody is going to be carrying that thing anywhere, and there's no convenient means of cutting it up without adamantine weaponry and a significant amount of spare time.

As there are no rules for processing unrefined goods (walls of salt for example), as a DM I'd say it required a profession miner check for the week along with tools appropriate to both breaking the salt down (picks, shovels, barrels) and refining it (standard mining processing equipment, estimated total value 1000gp). So each minimum level casting would take ~a week for a party of 4 to pack into a usable format. Don't forget to subtract the costs for feeding yourselves/animals and wages for any hirelings. Assuming minimal loss of the salt product owing to inefficiency in breaking it down/packing and standard loss from theft, I think we'd be looking at ~5000 lbs of product (table salt weighs ~135lbs/cubic foot, or ~6000lbs for the minimum CL sized wall...actually rereading the spell it's not clear that it's even 5 cubic feet per caster level...but whatever, let's continue anyway). Total value would be ~25,000gp.

Now comes another tricky bit, finding a merchant to sell your now refined trade goods to. As the SRD20 makes clear, it is Merchants who commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. If you're lucky you find a Platinum trader and not a Pig Trader (5000lbs of salt is equivalent to 50 lbs of platinum or 8,333 (repeating of course) pigs.) In any case, you'd need two wagons because of the size of the materials (9 cubic feet!) and the weight (5000 lbs) requires at least 2 heavy horses (3000lb max drag per horse) with a team of 2 per load recommended.

This brings us to: Merchant Quest! The journey to find someone willing and able to buy your trade goods. Watch out for bandits along the way and, again, pray you meet someone willing to give you items that are more easily transported.

On the whole, I'd say that, not only are you better off just adventuring, you'll probably have more fun doing that. Using a spell to get rich is another in a long list of things that is easier said than done.

[Gavinfoxx]

You should read this:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[Rubik]

I wouldn't worry about if it's possible or even allowed to be sold, I take those to be given as true.

The problem isn't having it, the problem is that it still has to be mined. The wall itself has potential, but until someone actually processes it into a trade good, it isn't worth anything to anyone.

Same issue with a wall of iron, worse actually...it's ridiculously heavy, so nobody is going to be carrying that thing anywhere, and there's no convenient means of cutting it up without adamantine weaponry and a significant amount of spare time.

As there are no rules for processing unrefined goods (walls of salt for example), as a DM I'd say it required a profession miner check for the week along with tools appropriate to both breaking the salt down (picks, shovels, barrels) and refining it (standard mining processing equipment, estimated total value 1000gp). So each minimum level casting would take ~a week for a party of 4 to pack into a usable format. Don't forget to subtract the costs for feeding yourselves/animals and wages for any hirelings. Assuming minimal loss of the salt product owing to inefficiency in breaking it down/packing and standard loss from theft, I think we'd be looking at ~5000 lbs of product (table salt weighs ~135lbs/cubic foot, or ~6000lbs for the minimum CL sized wall...actually rereading the spell it's not clear that it's even 5 cubic feet per caster level...but whatever, let's continue anyway). Total value would be ~25,000gp.

Now comes another tricky bit, finding a merchant to sell your now refined trade goods to. As the SRD20 makes clear, it is Merchants who commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. If you're lucky you find a Platinum trader and not a Pig Trader (5000lbs of salt is equivalent to 50 lbs of platinum or 8,333 (repeating of course) pigs.) In any case, you'd need two wagons because of the size of the materials (9 cubic feet!) and the weight (5000 lbs) requires at least 2 heavy horses (3000lb max drag per horse) with a team of 2 per load recommended.

This brings us to: Merchant Quest! The journey to find someone willing and able to buy your trade goods. Watch out for bandits along the way and, again, pray you meet someone willing to give you items that are more easily transported.

On the whole, I'd say that, not only are you better off just adventuring, you'll probably have more fun doing that. Using a spell to get rich is another in a long list of things that is easier said than done.Yay (Greater)(Psionic) Fabricate, various summoning/calling spells and Astral Construct and (Psionic) (Greater) Teleport.

You immediately process the whole wall into a fully usable trade good for the full amount, and all for the cost of a few extra spell slots/number of extra power points.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yay (Greater)(Psionic) Fabricate, various summoning/calling spells and Astral Construct and (Psionic) (Greater) Teleport.

You immediately process the whole wall into a fully usable trade good for the full amount, and all for the cost of a few extra spell slots/number of extra power points.

It's already a trade good, just not in a usable format, by definition there's no crafting involved.

[Rubik]

It's already a trade good, just not in a usable format, by definition there's no crafting involved.Very true, but it's also a giant slab attached to a stone floor/wall/ceiling, and it must be broken off and carted away in said "usable format." Hence the Fabricate.

[Vogonjeltz]

Very true, but it's also a giant slab attached to a stone floor/wall/ceiling, and it must be broken off and carted away in said "usable format." Hence the Fabricate.

I appreciate that, but fabricate converts a raw material and using a craft check makes a product. Trade goods are already themselves, so I don't see any change into a product (ie a salt sculpture)

[eggynack]

I appreciate that, but fabricate converts a raw material and using a craft check makes a product. Trade goods are already themselves, so I don't see any change into a product (ie a salt sculpture)
If the wall of salt is already the trade good, and thus itself, then you should logically be able to just sell the thing in wall form.

[Vogonjeltz]

If the wall of salt is already the trade good, and thus itself, then you should logically be able to just sell the thing in wall form.

Not if it isn't transportable and there's no merchant on hand willing or able to trade for it. Logically speaking of course.

[eggynack]

Not if it isn't transportable and there's no merchant on hand willing or able to trade for it. Logically speaking of course.
If it's a trade good, then you can effectively use it as currency. If you can't effectively use it as currency, then it's not a trade good. Thus, if its current state makes you incapable of using it as currency, then it isn't a trade good in its base state.

[Rubik]

I appreciate that, but fabricate converts a raw material and using a craft check makes a product. Trade goods are already themselves, so I don't see any change into a product (ie a salt sculpture)It converts matter in one form into the same matter in another form. It only requires a Craft check if it's a complicated item you're creating.

Turning salt from a solid mass into chunks or powder doesn't require a check unless you're making a sculpture or something.

[Vogonjeltz]

If it's a trade good, then you can effectively use it as currency. If you can't effectively use it as currency, then it's not a trade good. Thus, if its current state makes you incapable of using it as currency, then it isn't a trade good in its base state.

If it weren't attached to the stone, allowing you to cart it off to someone who will accept it in trade (remember, only merchants). Being capable of using the good isn't a requirement.

[eggynack]

If it weren't attached to the stone, allowing you to cart it off to someone who will accept it in trade (remember, only merchants).
Taking the salt off of the stone seems like a far less arduous process to me, especially as spells like stone shape exist.

Being capable of using the good isn't a requirement.
You don't have to be able to use it for anything but currency, but you do have to be able to use it as currency. Such is the nature of a trade good.

[Vogonjeltz]

Taking the salt off of the stone seems like a far less arduous process to me, especially as spells like stone shape exist.

You don't have to be able to use it for anything but currency, but you do have to be able to use it as currency. Such is the nature of a trade good.

We are talking about a solid block of 5000lb salt. Nobody is buying it in that form, logically.

[bjoern]

We are talking about a solid block of 5000lb salt. Nobody is buying it in that form, logically.

You could look at it like commodities IRL. crude oil, natural gas, grain. All of which is completely useless until it is refined or proccessed. Yet it still holds value and is traded openly.

[eggynack]

We are talking about a solid block of 5000lb salt. Nobody is buying it in that form, logically.
Then it is not yet a trade good. Either that, or you'd be forcing them to buy in too much bulk, but chopping into smaller blocks shouldn't be nearly as difficult as breaking down the whole thing.

[Vogonjeltz]

You could look at it like commodities IRL. crude oil, natural gas, grain. All of which is completely useless until it is refined or proccessed. Yet it still holds value and is traded openly.

Right, I'm saying it isn't going to be worth anything to a merchant preprocessed, and processing would be a profession check, not a crafting check.

[bjoern]

Right, I'm saying it isn't going to be worth anything to a merchant preprocessed, and processing would be a profession check, not a crafting check.

Why would it be worthless?
--caster /owner/prospector extracts the salt, and transports it to a local merchant and sells it for 1000/unit (arbitrary number), then returns to the mine to extract more product.

-- local merchant takes load of salt from owner and prepares it for shipping to several cities/kingdoms/customers/whatever . He packs it into desired quantities and ships it off and charges 1500/unit. Then awaits more incoming shipments from the mine.

The miner provides the product
The merchant provides the distribution
The customer provides the demand.

Larger operations would be self contained and handle the product all the way to the customer but that would be much more involved for a PC but would garner larger profits.

[Hexalan]

There is a story of a similar circumstance where a rogue has nigh-unlimited access to magically acquired salt and builds a commercial empire. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tale_of_an_Industrious_Rogue,_Part_I) It's an entertaining campaign, and eventually borks over everyone.