Is INT the new, easiest Dump stat?

[Prophet_of_Io]

5e has improved a lot in D&D. For one, all of the abilities are much harder to straight up ignore. With Ability Based Saves replacing saving throws you never know what stat you might need. But it's still not to say some abilities are just more important than others.
Constitution is easily the most relevant stat across the board. No one would want to make it their dump stat unless it's a character decision. No class uses it as their Primary stat but since it determines Hit Points every class has it as a secondary stat of sorts.
Dexterity is likely the next most relevant stat. Not all builds need it but it does determine Init. no matter the class. Some won't care and may dump it but most would like at least a +1 in it. Other classes use it as the primary stat and then it becomes more important than Constitution in some cases. Plus now that it applies to weapon and damage rolls it's more important than ever.

After this things get a little more situational.
If you're asking me I'd say Wisdom is the most (generally) important stat after. Perception is a very relevant skill that if you're not trained in it's nice to have a natural advantage, but that not why it's an important skill. Con, Dex and Wis have been the most common saving throws so far. That may very well change when we see all the monster manual has to throw at players but right now those are the most common, and thus, most relevant abilities.

Now we have three left, Strength, Intelligence and Charisma.

Now back in 3.5 Intelligence was super relevant because it determined skill points. Not only that but more than a few relevant skills used Int as their ability modifier, not the least of which was Craft. But now that the skills you know are purely determined by class and background Intelligence is only as relevant as the class you choose and the saving throws you make with it. Where we are now I don't know a single thing that uses a Int saving throw (though I have yet to pick up Horde of the Dragon Queen, maybe there's one in there). When Mike Mearls was asked his reply was "Psionics when we make them" which isn't very reassuring. Charisma at least has the Umber Hulk on it's side saving throw wise and Strength based ones seem easy for DM's to add in. Speaking of Charisma it's a lot more important than it has been in the past. Plenty of classes use it as their Primary or Secondary stat including Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock and some Wizards.

As it stands now I'd say Strength and Charisma are about as important as each other. If it's your primary or secondary stat in your class you'll want a decent one in there, otherwise you might not care. Strength does determine your carrying capacity which some DM's actually keep track of so I guess that puts it above charisma but charisma is a relevant stat for anyone that likes to roleplay with the NPC's.

In 5e it looks to me like Intelligence is the stat that I'd care the least about if it didn't have any relevance to my class. But what do you think? Which stat is the most "dumpable"? Honestly I think that all the classes are pretty close (except con). Nothing seems like an auto-dump (like Charisma from 3.5) but what ability seems like the most common dump?

[Angelalex242]

Actually, anyone wearing heavy armor can safely dump Dex now. Since heavy armor negates dex bonus entirely, you can throw a 10 there and call it good. Init? Who cares, that what heavy armor is for. Dex is for all those people that need to bother dodging. This is, of course, from the Fighter/Cleric/Paladin perspective, since they're the heavy armor classes. Medium armor wants 14 dex, light armor wants 20.

[da_chicken]

Eh. I think Int, Cha, and Str are about equal. You're pretty much guaranteed to need one of the three for your class, but you're also pretty much guaranteed to not need more than one. Int has a large number of skills, including Investigation, and it does determine starting languages, IIRC. Str can generally be replaced by Dex, and Cha for most classes is an ability for skills that only get rolled by the person who has the stat and the skill trained (i.e., someone else can cover for your low Cha). I'd agree that they're the three least useful stats, however.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Actually, anyone wearing heavy armor can safely dump Dex now. Since heavy armor negates dex bonus entirely, you can throw a 10 there and call it good. Init? Who cares, that what heavy armor is for. Dex is for all those people that need to bother dodging. This is, of course, from the Fighter/Cleric/Paladin perspective, since they're the heavy armor classes. Medium armor wants 14 dex, light armor wants 20.

There are still a good amount of Dex based saving throws. Those breath weapons aren't gonna take half-damage by themselves you know. AC can't protect you from that.


Int has a large number of skills, including Investigation, and it does determine starting languages, IIRC.

I don't recall Int determining starting language. From what I knew that was up to race and background. Where did you see that?

[Angelalex242]

That's what Divine Grace is for, and before level 6, try not to face breath weapons :P

Anyways, heavy armor heavily discourages setting dex higher then 10. Dex is for other people, not the heavy armor classes.

Besides, Paladins need Str AND Cha, unlike most classes, so those points have to come from somewhere.

[Malifice]

Until the Psionics rules comes out (which will target Int for saves), then Yes.

Aside from Wizards (who need Int) It does literally nothing aside from help your Knowledge skills, which (unless DM'd carefully or RP'd well) are generally the most prone to metagame abuse anyways.

[Gamgee]

A lot of my players use Int even in 40k games, but I also like to use lore checks to feed them information about my homebrew setting. A lot of them find them absolutely indispensable, and no I don't let them metagame it.

However that is GM choice/skill not the system itself making it useful.

[Prophet_of_Io]

That's what Divine Grace is for, and before level 6, try not to face breath weapons :P

Anyways, heavy armor heavily discourages setting dex higher then 10. Dex is for other people, not the heavy armor classes.

Besides, Paladins need Str AND Cha, unlike most classes, so those points have to come from somewhere.

For sure but that's just Paladins. I'm only saying that a heavy armor class (like Fighter) can't simply ignore Dex with no penalties at all, there are attacks that get by AC. But yeah as a Paladin, dump that Dex. Nobody cares :P.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, we paladins have our 20 charismas to deal with saves of all sorts. And...we're proficient with wisdom and charisma saves.

...so our 20 charisma paladin has an obscene charisma save, because he's adding charisma twice, then adding proficiency.

They really don't need proficiency with charisma saves. Probably be better off if it was wisdom and con saves, or wisdom and dex saves.

[Malifice]

A lot of my players use Int even in 40k games, but I also like to use lore checks to feed them information about my homebrew setting. A lot of them find them absolutely indispensable, and no I don't let them metagame it.

However that is GM choice/skill not the system itself making it useful.

Agreed. A good player will RP a poor Int, and a good GM will be wary of metagame stuff ('dumb characters' using a players knowedge and smarts to avoid what would be a big 'in game' obstacle)

Same deal for Charisma, the 'go-to' dump stat of generations past.

Seriously, if DnD were real life, and you were making a character for you to 'become,' Charisma would be the first stat most would max out. Be everyones best friend, and pull all the ladies (or fellas). Id rather be the coolest and most popular kid in school than the most agile!

Yet oddly, most of my campaigns have featured parties full of social outcasts and losers with no friends.

Dumping charisma comes at a cost in my campaigns!

;)

[Angelalex242]

Clearly, your games must not have liked Bards/Sorcerers/Paladins much. They're the Charisma kings.

[Malifice]

Clearly, your games must not have liked Bards/Sorcerers/Paladins much. They're the Charisma kings.

They had NPC's actually trust them, give them information and be helpful to them.

And they got all the ladies.

[Naanomi]

Yet oddly, most of my campaigns have featured parties full of social outcasts and losers with no friends
Hey now, most parties are full of social outcasts and losers with no friends (who else would become adventurers?) AND one highly sociable guy who convinces other people to hire them. Gotta have the party face :smallcool:

[Prophet_of_Io]

Hey now, most parties are full of social outcasts and losers with no friends (who else would become adventurers?) AND one highly sociable guy who convinces other people to hire them. Gotta have the party face :smallcool:

Also, not to derail my own thread, but a party of social outcasts and losers... that kind of sounds like the perfect underdog team to make a great story. But I guess for every Rocket Raccoon and Gamora, you need a Chris Pratt, I mean Star Lord (no... I mean Chris Pratt).

[da_chicken]

I don't recall Int determining starting language. From what I knew that was up to race and background. Where did you see that?

Playtest. You got Int mod bonus languages.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Playtest. You got Int mod bonus languages.

I don't think that stayed in the final version. At least, I haven't seen it in the Players Handbook.

[Falka]

If you can't consider Wisdom a dump stat, why would you do so with Int? It's required for several useful skills (Investigation is used in active searching attempts, and all the Lore related skills also use Int).

Also, I can't stand playing a dumb character. I'd prefer to roll with less Con.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't think that stayed in the final version. At least, I haven't seen it in the Players Handbook.

It didn't. Languages come from your race and possibly your background. And that one Linguist feat.

[Prophet_of_Io]

If you can't consider Wisdom a dump stat, why would you do so with Int? It's required for several useful skills (Investigation is used in active searching attempts, and all the Lore related skills also use Int).

Also, I can't stand playing a dumb character. I'd prefer to roll with less Con.

To be clear, you can consider anything a dump stat in 5e much more than other versions. The usual exception is Con but as I said, as a character choice you can even chose that.

But I put Wisdom higher up since right now a good amount of saving throws use Wisdom, while none at all have Int. That's not to say Int is a bad score, or even that playing a smart character isn't fun. But on average, what is the easiest skill to dump?

[Falka]

To be clear, you can consider anything a dump stat in 5e much more than other versions. The usual exception is Con but as I said, as a character choice you can even chose that.

But I put Wisdom higher up since right now a good amount of saving throws use Wisdom, while none at all have Int. That's not to say Int is a bad score, or even that playing a smart character isn't fun. But on average, what is the easiest skill to dump?

Some spells like Maze have Int saves. Most illusions require a good Int score to disbelieve them. (Investigation).

I would pick Charisma as a dump stat if my class features weren't dependant on its score, though. Or Strength, even (but that means you are playing a caster Class).

I could live with a bland personality, not I think it's too risky to be stupid. :p

[Yuki Akuma]

You could play a Fighter who dumps Strength, honestly. Just pick up a finesse weapon and pump your Dex. Rogues definitely don't need Strength.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Some spells like Maze have Int saves. Most illusions require a good Int score to disbelieve them. (Investigation).

Ahh, that's right isn't it. Well there you go. I never thought it was an auto dump but the spells certainly help.

I still think it's usually the least relevant though. Class wise only two and a half classes (Wizard, Rogue and Eldritch Knight Fighters) have Int as a primary or secondary stat. While Charisma has about 5 and a half (Bard, Paladin, Social Rogue, Sorcerer, Warlock and Enchanter Wizards) and Strength has about four and a half (Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric, Paladin and certain Rangers). Which means outside of let's say, three classes the value of Int comes down to Saving Throws and personal character preference. If you like playing with a high Int than of course it's valuable. If you don't or are indifferent you'll only invest in it if you need to which, often, you won't.


You could play a Fighter who dumps Strength, honestly. Just pick up a finesse weapon and pump your Dex. Rogues definitely don't need Strength.
This is, of course, true. I'm just going on average. Plenty of builds can choose any of the six stat's as a dump. But which one will be dumped the most?

Honestly it might be a blessing for Int characters. If something like Charisma becomes a commonly endowed stat but Intelligence is largely ignored than there isn't as much of a need for the Party's face but suddenly the character with a high Investigation and certain "knowledge" based skills becomes highly valuable in the party.

[Person_Man]

I basically agree with the OP.

Also, I find it perplexing that this issue still exists. Within the current framework of 5E it would have been really really easy to re-balance things between the six ability scores much more closely. Make Strength Save against Paralysis/Hold/Telekenisis/etc, make Int resist most mental stuff (in place of Wis, since Int is supposed to represent the power of your intellect), move Initiative to Wisdom (because it's about Perception, judgement, etc), move everything related to Fear and Compulsion to Charisma (which is supposed to represent the force of your personality, bravery, etc), and so on.

The issue exists because Mearls made a lot of decisions based on precedent (how did it work in a previous edition) or his personal simulationist notions (how would it work in the real world... if the real world had dragons and wizards and whatnot).

[Sartharina]

Strength is actually a bad idea to dump, because you need it for a LOT of ability checks, especially if you're doing a lot of exploration. It's required for all non-guaranteed attempts to interact with your surroundings.

[VeliciaL]

If nothing else, it seems like 5e really rewards balanced parties. You may not need strength all that much, but someone needs to move all those heavy rocks...

[Felhammer]

INT is not a dump stat, unless you like all of your min/maxed characters to speak like :thog:

[mr_odd]

If nothing else, it seems like 5e really rewards balanced parties. You may not need strength all that much, but someone needs to move all those heavy rocks...

Which, ideally, should be the result of a good system. To use (yet another) video game analogy, this is not Skyrim, nor is it an MMO. D&D is about the party, and how these unique and interesting characters come together to accomplish their goals.

[lianightdemon]

If you even just put a 10 into any one stat, while it will suck for most things, it's about what an average human has. So you aren't dumb with a 10. With an 8 your a little slow, but you don''t get to the actually dumb until you get less then 8.

[rlc]

i think a dwarf using ranged attacks could probably survive with using constitution as their dump stat, especially a hill dwarf.

[CyberThread]

Big dumb likeable paladin with saves so strong he can afford too rp dumb.

[Person_Man]

If nothing else, it seems like 5e really rewards balanced parties. You may not need strength all that much, but someone needs to move all those heavy rocks...

I think that at mid-higher levels a spellcasters can probably replace high Str + Athletics Proficiency with "I blow up the rocks that our in our way with my magic" or whatever is needed, but you're basically correct. In many games, someone in the party needs high Str to carry/move/break stuff, someone needs Dex and the right Proficiencies to do traps and doors, someone needs high Int for Lore related checks, someone needs high Cha and social Proficiencies for party face duties, someone needs to be a healer so that you don't need to take a Short Rest after every battle, mid-high level parties need magic weapons and/or spellcasters to bypass Resistances/Immunities, and probably a few other things I've forgotten.

But I'd also say that to some degree, it imposes the designer's idea of what a balanced party should be on the players.

Mearls addressed this directly in regards to healing, and his response was basically 'yes, we expect that someone will have to play a Cleric or something close to it.' Which is really annoying, because maybe no one in my group wants to play a healer or expend their limited spell slots on healing, or whatever other "required" role is needed.

[Demonic Spoon]

Mearls addressed this directly in regards to healing, and his response was basically 'yes, we expect that someone will have to play a Cleric or something close to it.' Which is really annoying, because maybe no one in my group wants to play a healer or expend their limited spell slots on healing, or whatever other "required" role is needed.


do you have a link for this? This rather irritates me as well. Maybe something that could be solved by a variant mundane healing rule?

[Sartharina]

Probably. I think that was made a design goal because of excessive bitching from outside The Playground against Nonmagical Healing as a way to cater to the Anti-4e crowd.

Earlier in the playtest, you got all your Hit Dice back per long rest. But people complained about non-magical healing, so they cut that down.

[Joe the Rat]

INT is not a dump stat, unless you like all of your min/maxed characters to speak like :thog:
So what's the downside?

[Icewraith]

You can have a decent int and just have your character use few words as a hook anyways. You could maybe ascribe it to low cha and a desire to speak as efficiently as possible, or to have others think he's dumber than he is.

SIMPLE TALK BEST.

BAD IDEA.

GOOD IDEA.

YOU STAY.

I WILL GUARD.

DANGER!

DIE!

DUCK!

What do you do?
FIGHT.

Why are we going this way?
PYTHAGORAS.

How are we going to solve this problem?
FIRE.

What are you looking for in a weapon?
BETTER THAN THIS.

What should I wear on my date with the princess?
PROTECTION.

[Demonic Spoon]

10 int is average for a human. Humans of below-average intelligence aren't incapable of speaking in coherent sentences, they're just below-average in intelligence.

I don't think anyone would be speaking like Thog unless they were in the realm of 6 or 7 int.

[Angelalex242]

Well, I figure most people will pointbuy their way to 'no negative modifiers.' Once the minimum stat is 10...

You'd have a base Paladin who probably starts with 16s in Str and Cha, and pumped his con as high as he can get it.

Human Paladins might (with heavy armor feat), take 14/10/13/10/10/15 (Assuming a 27 point buy) and move on with life. That becomes 16/10/13/10/10/16

[rlc]

Probably. I think that was made a design goal because of excessive bitching from outside The Playground against Nonmagical Healing as a way to cater to the Anti-4e crowd.

Earlier in the playtest, you got all your Hit Dice back per long rest. But people complained about non-magical healing, so they cut that down.

Man, that's dumb. Sure, you probably won't go from on your death bed to completely refreshed after just getting a good night's sleep in real life, but you probable won't have access to magic spells and potions in real life, either. It's a game. It doesn't have to be completely realistic.
I will always play it as getting all of your hit dice back after a long rest.

[T.G. Oskar]

You can have a decent int and just have your character use few words as a hook anyways. You could maybe ascribe it to low cha and a desire to speak as efficiently as possible, or to have others think he's dumber than he is.

SIMPLE TALK BEST.

BAD IDEA.

GOOD IDEA.

YOU STAY.

I WILL GUARD.

DANGER!

DIE!

DUCK!

What do you do?
FIGHT.

Why are we going this way?
PYTHAGORAS.

How are we going to solve this problem?
FIRE.

What are you looking for in a weapon?
BETTER THAN THIS.

What should I wear on my date with the princess?
PROTECTION.

Don't take this as pedantry, but the word you're looking for is "laconic". Thank the Spartans for laconic wit: if you can't say things in as few words as possible, then say nothing. (Which is the complete opposite of what I do, but there's laconic wit and there's loquaciousness and florid language.)

Questions #1, 3 and 4 can be expected of someone with Int 8 or even a bit lower, if you want to do it that way, but Question #2 is a perfect example of laconic wit (so as long as the Pythagorean Theorem is replaced by its in-world equivalent), and Question #5 also requires a bit of Charisma (though it *can* be done with a dry-wit deliver).

Regarding the Investigation skill: IIRC, both Investigation and Perception are good at finding traps, so the main benefit of the Investigation skill is for, as previously said, "active searching". As it stands, Perception and Investigation overlap quite a bit: if finding a hidden clue, you might do it via Perception or Investigation. They might differ (you can get a clue you know or expect via Perception, but you can only get a clue that might not seem like one through Investigation), but for the most part they'll overlap. I find it rare that there's no mention of a Passive Investigation action, where you spend your Exploration turns doing careful searching of all areas without making an actual roll. Passive Perception (an element born mostly from 4e) crossed over, but while the rule was established as a wider one, it has limited applications.

[GnomeGninjas]

Actually, anyone wearing heavy armor can safely dump Dex now. Since heavy armor negates dex bonus entirely, you can throw a 10 there and call it good. Init? Who cares, that what heavy armor is for. Dex is for all those people that need to bother dodging. This is, of course, from the Fighter/Cleric/Paladin perspective, since they're the heavy armor classes. Medium armor wants 14 dex, light armor wants 20.

Unless the Player's Handbook is deferent from the PDF (or my PDF is out of date) heavy armor also ignores dexterity penalties so you can throw an 8 in there and call it good.:


Heavy armor doesn't let you add your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class, but it also doesn't penalize you if your dexterity modifier is negative.

[Person_Man]

do you have a link for this? This rather irritates me as well. Maybe something that could be solved by a variant mundane healing rule?

http://archive.wizards.com/Dnd/Print.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110503

It's from way back in 2011, but it shows his philosophy. His basic point is that some people like playing a classic healbot Cleric, 5E should cater to that as an option, and that changing the healing rules to something like 4E means that the healbot Cleric is no longer a real option for players who like it.

He also states that healing should basically be optional - if you want to play a healbot then great, if not you don't need it. (This is Mearl's general philosophy with game design). But sadly 5E basically does require a healbot, unless you want to take a 1 or 8 hour Rest after every combat. So the underlying rationale for keeping healing segregated to Clerics doesn't exist.