INgame choises

[Melcar]

In a game we are playing, one of many, I was told by the dm, that my char could choose either +1 untyped bonus to int or two free levels of meta-magic. So I could freely empower on spell for free, for instance.

I was just wondering what you guys think would be the best choise.

Personally I'm torn!

[VariSami]

While the latter alternative seems a bit open-ended, take it. Free Metamagic nomally requires some shenanigans, and the pay-off is almost incomparable to a mere +1 to Int. Even if you currently have no metamagic feats, it should still be worth it.

[sideswipe]

if i came along to you and said-
"do you want a years worth of schooling instantly, or the ability to make spells more powerful (assuming you can cast them)"

what would you choose?

[Melcar]

Im inclined to agree, but higher spell DC and more spell per day is quite good!

[bjoern]

A +1 to int is worth 1000gp

Unlimited use of a +2 reduction from a MM worth much more than that. Do you have to pick one feat it applies to now or is it an open ended reduction? Like having two of incantratixes capstones?

If its across the board then its a no brainer.
I'd take the MM hands down. A +1 int ain't much when you'll already be in the 20s or 30s anyway.

[Melcar]

A +1 to int is worth 1000gp

Unlimited use of a +2 reduction from a MM worth much more than that. Do you have to pick one feat it applies to now or is it an open ended reduction? Like having two of incantratixes capstones?

If its across the board then its a no brainer.
I'd take the MM hands down. A +1 int ain't much when you'll already be in the 20s or 30s anyway.

The int bonus is an untyped permanent bonus, like inherent. The two free levels are open ended, could be used in conjunction with any meta-magic feat. 2 +1, 1 +2 or reduce a higher cost meta-magic feat. Its a wizard build.

[bjoern]

The int bonus is an untyped permanent bonus, like inherent. The two free levels are open ended, could be used in conjunction with any meta-magic feat. 2 +1, 1 +2 or reduce a higher cost meta-magic feat. Its a wizard build.

That metamagic boon he's offering you is huge. For myself, you'd have to offer me around a +6 int for me to consider it. Even then I'd probably take the MM. I mean a +1 isn't squat . You get that from every four levels. Just to get half of the MM bonus he's giving you , you've got to invest 15 levels to get there. Level 30 vs level 4.

A +1 doesn't even boost your int bonus (unless its odd to begin with.) As far as having a higher save DC goes.....use the MM To twin your spell and force them to make the save twice in a row. Way more versatile and potent.

[nedz]

Metamagic — you choose Persist and Quicken.

[bjoern]

Metamagic — you choose Persist and Quicken.

You take wizard 5 incantatrix 10 and you got -3 from every MM feat applied.
Quicken every turn for a +1 yes please
Persist nonsense for 1/2 the DC than normal yes please

A twinned repeating maximized empowered fireball as a 4th level spell. Yes please.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What the DM offered you was +1 Int or a combo if feats and 10 class levels. Take B. It is also inestimably more valuable. Want better DC's? Free Heighten!

[Talar]

The metamagic hands down in this instance. it seems like you are already playing a character with this choice, so it might depend on your feat selection but even then take the MM bonus and start picking up MM feats and retraining your current feats to fit/taste. To turn down the metamagic you should be getting +8 or +10 to int. Maybe more...that's how powerful of an option he is giving you.

Of course there could be some miscommunication about what he is exactly offering you, so I would clarify.

[Melcar]

I get the feeling that I have been unclear. Its two levels per day. Its a total of two level. It does not apply to more that a max of two spells. It not like a double improved meta-magic. I somehow got the feeling that some of you thought so. So one spell could be empowered for free. Not all of them.

What if it was +5 int or 10 levels?

Oh.. and thanks for your thoughts so far!:smallsmile:

[bjoern]

I get the feeling that I have been unclear. Its two levels per day. Its a total of two level. It does not apply to more that a max of two spells. It not like a double improved meta-magic. I somehow got the feeling that some of you thought so. So one spell could be empowered for free. Not all of them.

What if it was +5 int or 10 levels?

Oh.. and thanks for your thoughts so far!:smallsmile:

That tones it down from an inferno to a campfire.
But +1 int is still just a puff of smoke.

Gett a -2 to a single MM application once a day is still quite good. It gives you access to quicken a spell 2 levels higher than you normally could once a day. A lot of times a caster only needs one spell to decisively end a battle. I'd say MM still wins.

Now that I understand you better, it sounds more fun. The other way would be broken asheck and mess up the game.

[Talar]

I get the feeling that I have been unclear. Its two levels per day. Its a total of two level. It does not apply to more that a max of two spells. It not like a double improved meta-magic. I somehow got the feeling that some of you thought so. So one spell could be empowered for free. Not all of them.

What if it was +5 int or 10 levels?

Oh.. and thanks for your thoughts so far!:smallsmile:

Yes there was some miscommunication here. We thought it was a constant benefit. I would probably still take the metamagic, you just have to pick what feats/spells you use it with carefully. Just one point of int is lackluster really.

[Thanatosia]

Thats a much tougher comparison. I dunno, half a free quicken per day or untyped int bonus.... I might agree with your choice on the int bonus. Int bonus also gives bonus spell slots, which will eventually make up for 2 meta levels per day in a lot of ways - once you get high level the extra spell slot could translate into an extra useful quickened spell per day.

I dunno, daily uses of free metamagic can eventually be obtained via rods or taking 'sudden' metamagic feats, untyped int bonuses are much harder to come by.

[Melcar]

Now that I understand you better, it sounds more fun. The other way would be broken asheck and mess up the game.

Indeed... I'm sorry for my lack of explaining capabilities! :smallsmile:

EDIT: I personally find it very difficult, even with the answers now, to choose. I am most inclined to pick int, but I also see the strenght of having the two levels of free meta-magic. What to do....

[bjoern]

Indeed... I'm sorry for my lack of explaining capabilities! :smallsmile:

EDIT: I personally find it very difficult, even with the answers now, to choose. I am most inclined to pick int, but I also see the strenght of having the two levels of free meta-magic. What to do....

Having another +1/2 bonus to a check is less value able than having or not having a spell you need because you didn't have the MM to make it happen.

[Fax Celestis]

Only one of those selections could potentially save your life.

Hint: it's not the Int bonus.

[bjoern]

Only one of those selections could potentially save your life.

Hint: it's not the Int bonus.

Definitely a waste to use it on an empower. But a quickened teleport or similar for example. Could save your parties life

[Tvtyrant]

Does the int bonus stack with PaOing into a gold dragon?

[bjoern]

Does the int bonus stack with PaOing into a gold dragon?
I'd say so. It is untyped. But still, every other alternating block of 4 levels, that int bonus is worthless as it leaves you with an odd number not helping you at all. So half of the time the int bonus helps a tiny amount and the other half of the time it does absolutely nothing.

An item that gives a +1 enhancement bonus costs 1000gp. A custom item that grants an untyped +1 costs at most AT MOST 4000 gp.
A metamagic rod that let's you quicken 7th level spells costs 170,000gp

[nedz]

OK, I wasn't entirely sure what you meant in the OP.

It's still metamagic — unless you never plan to take any metamagic feats ?

Basically you can use metamagic on spells you couldn't use them on previously. Say your 10th level and can cast 5th level spells, now normally you could Quicken, say, 1st level spells; now you can Quicken two 2nd level spells, or one 3rd level spell, per day - out of your 5th level spell slots.

[Melcar]

I havent been a big user of meta-magic so far. That might change ofc, if I chose the meta-magic thing. Instead I have actually always went for as high int as possible, so it would fit the deal, and well its always nice to have high DC's and exstra bonus spells.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I would still go for the 2 MM levels/day. Just as a for-example, you might be able to use this for some early-entry stuff, maybe replacing the Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell stuff for Shadowcraft Mage. Assuming you want to keep things reasonable, I'd still take the MM reduction. Wizards are about flexibility, and unless you're going for a hyper-focused build that wants to bump save DCs as high as possible, I'd prefer to enhance the flexibility.

[bjoern]

I would still go for the 2 MM levels/day. Just as a for-example, you might be able to use this for some early-entry stuff, maybe replacing the Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell stuff for Shadowcraft Mage. Assuming you want to keep things reasonable, I'd still take the MM reduction. Wizards are about flexibility, and unless you're going for a hyper-focused build that wants to bump save DCs as high as possible, I'd prefer to enhance the flexibility.

Most of the best spells don't offer saves at all. At that point a high save DC isn't helping you much.

[Melcar]

Most of the best spells don't offer saves at all. At that point a high save DC isn't helping you much.

If you could I would like some exsamples. I'm always eager to learn new spells or tactics. If you look at the high end monsters they all have saves above 30 usually even 40+. Its goin to be diffecult getting spell in on red wyrms or the monsters from ELH... whose saves going well into the 50s and 60s.

[bjoern]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batmanhttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman
If you could I would like some exsamples. I'm always eager to learn new spells or tactics. If you look at the high end monsters they all have saves above 30 usually even 40+. Its goin to be diffecult getting spell in on red wyrms or the monsters from ELH... whose saves going well into the 50s and 60s.

Every caster should read this . http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Most of the best spells don't offer saves at all. At that point a high save DC isn't helping you much.

Unless you've decided you want a hyper-focused build around specific spells that offer a save.


If you could I would like some exsamples. I'm always eager to learn new spells or tactics. If you look at the high end monsters they all have saves above 30 usually even 40+. Its goin to be diffecult getting spell in on red wyrms or the monsters from ELH... whose saves going well into the 50s and 60s.

Let's see. Most Conjurations will do work in this area; many of the good control spells have saves against particular effects but have debuffs regardless of save. Depending on the levels you're going to be playing at... web has a save, but even if they save there are penalties. Grease. Benign transposition. Sleet storm. Dimension step. Bands of steel has a save but Reflex is usually relatively low. Black tentacles. Solid fog. Dimension door. Wall of stone. Viscid glob has a save but it's reflex. Dimension shuffle. Freezing fog. Tunnel swallow is only useful in a few environments and has a save, but the save only negates half the damage and half the movement. Choking cobwebs. Stun ray is be stunned, save or be stunned longer. Maze. Generally lots of the summoning spells are pretty baller. The planar binding line is usually considered gamebreaking.

There are lots of other good spells, of course. My last Wizard was a Focused Specialist Conjurer, so I'm remembering those especially.

[draken50]

I personally would go with the Metamagic thing just because I find doing more things to be more fun than having a higher number when I do them. I do get how mechanically it may be more sound to get the untyped +1, but personally I'd rather have even the lame stuff like a couple free silent, or still, or silent/stilled spells.

I feel like it'd be a more fun resource to get to play with than a plus 1 bonus, that as many pointed out, may not always be useful.

Just my two cents.

[firebrandtoluc]

The meta magic is better in just about every possible way. If you haven't been using meta magic... start. Don't bother with boring damage boosters though. Try using shape spell on burning hands, grease, or anti magic field. Use chain spell. Use reach spell. Make your magic do (even more) impossible things.

[Melcar]

Thanks for all the replies. I still find it difficult, albeit some very sound advise have been given. I am almost agreeing with all of you, that the free meta-magic is the way to go, im just thinking that later I will regret the choise, when improved spellcapasity is on the table. You guys have given me something to think about.

Thanks

[Tvtyrant]

Thanks for all the replies. I still find it difficult, albeit some very sound advise have been given. I am almost agreeing with all of you, that the free meta-magic is the way to go, im just thinking that later I will regret the choise, when improved spellcapasity is on the table. You guys have given me something to think about.

Thanks

I just use thought bottles and xp modifiers to make Tyrant's Mind Enhancer. Standard action to get a 100+ into for 20 hours, cast before memorizing spells. You can even get 300+ into if you really want.

[bjoern]

If for whatever reason you decide to use the int bonus, at least have the DM make it an even numbered bonus. That way you won't have alternating sets of 4 levels at a time where the bonus does absolutely nothing.

[Melcar]

I just use thought bottles and xp modifiers to make Tyrant's Mind Enhancer. Standard action to get a 100+ into for 20 hours, cast before memorizing spells. You can even get 300+ into if you really want.

I have no clue what Tyrant's Mind Enhancer is... COuld you explane?


If for whatever reason you decide to use the int bonus, at least have the DM make it an even numbered bonus. That way you won't have alternating sets of 4 levels at a time where the bonus does absolutely nothing.

So you think I should get a +2 untyped bunus and not +1...?

[bjoern]

So you think I should get a +2 untyped bunus and not +1...?

Is the bonus hes offering you an INT score bonus or an INT modifier bonus?

If its a score bonus then yeah having an odd number is terrible. That's why you never see anything that gives odd bonuses. (Not that I recall ever seeing)

If its a modifier bonus then it'll work fine, although that is an unusual kind of bonus.

[Tvtyrant]

I have no clue what Tyrant's Mind Enhancer is... COuld you explane?


One of the epic spell seeds is fortify. It allows you to get +1 to a stat for every 6 spell craft points you raise the epic spell by. For every 100XP you spend you can lower the DC by 1. So for every 600XP you can temporarily raise your intelligence by 1 and keep the SDC at 0. So for 100 intlligence bonus you would need 60,000xp loss. Unfortunately it caps at 20000 xp, but you can get a pretty fair chunk of intelligence improvement. You are also going to increase the casting time to 10 minutes for -10 to the Spellcraft DC, and add them to duration so it lasts 100 hours (most of a week.) Now you make a thought bottle (an item that stores your XP) and use it after casting the epic spell to get your XP back.

[Melcar]

Is the bonus hes offering you an INT score bonus or an INT modifier bonus?

If its a score bonus then yeah having an odd number is terrible. That's why you never see anything that gives odd bonuses. (Not that I recall ever seeing)

If its a modifier bonus then it'll work fine, although that is an unusual kind of bonus.

It funtions just like the bonus you get every 4th level. Meaning that at level 20 I would have gotten +6 instead of +5.

[bjoern]

It funtions just like the bonus you get every 4th level. Meaning that at level 20 I would have gotten +6 instead of +5.

Yeah, at level 20 your WBL is astronomical. Just buy a custom magic item that gives you an enhancement bonus to intelligence for (bonus ^2 x 1000gp) or if you need it un-typed for some reason have it be x 1500 gp or something. Ask your DM on pricing for different bonus types I can't recall them.right now. At that high of level a +1 is pretty over shadowed by being able to apply metamagic to a spell two levels higher than you normally could. For instance , normally, you could only quicken a 5th level spell since its a 9th level slot after the +4 from quicken. Now, with this free custom bonus he's giving you, you are able to quicken 7th level spells. That's something that changes your potency as a caster dramatically.
And the fact that the bonus isn't tied to a specific spell (like arcane thesis is) or a specific metamagic feat (like practical metamagic is) makes it a home run if you ask me.

[Melcar]

Just wanted to say thanks for all your responses! :smallsmile:

[Dell_the_Engie]

I'm getting the impression that you may have made up your mind before you even asked, given how much you're leaning to the +1 Intelligence bonus. Plain and simple, it is not worth the same as the metamagic. You can quantify the worth of those two options in gold, and metamagic is going to be worth much, much more. Even with a single use per day, some metamagic options are going to make the difference between victory and loss, or life and death. If you're still insistent on being the party's brainiac, try your luck and ask for a +2 bonus at least, because +1 is simply not worth it. The smarter wizard isn't the one with the highest Intelligence score, but the one with the most tricks up their sleeves.