Pathfinder [PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes? [Archive]

Yanisa

2014-08-14, 01:00 PM

o.0

What are the prereqs? That would have been great for the bard I was playing... His fort save could have used a boost. Maybe the SoD wouldn't have killed him had he had this!

Divine Protection
Your deity protects you against deadly attacks.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks,
ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells; blessings†, domains,
or mystery class feature.

Benefit: You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma
modifier on all saving throws. If your Charisma modifier
is already applied as a bonus on all saving throw (such as
from the divine grace class feature), you instead gain a +1
bonus on all saving throws.

So no to bards, or sorcs, or any spontaneous arcane caster.

Ssalarn

2014-08-14, 01:24 PM

Hunter is really, really strong now. Their animal companion can learn the combat tricks from the Skirmisher archetype as its normal handle animal tricks (!!!), and she gets both the Ranger and Druid spell list, learning a spell in whatever the lowest level either class gains it. By level 3 you can be getting +6 to hit when flanking with your animal companion (Outflank and your AC using aiding attack from the Skirmisher) while dropping Lead Blades on your primary weapon and maybe also sharing a damage boosting feat like Precise Strike.
I think he's kind of the unexpected power-house from the ACG, with a lot of strong potential.

Skald is pretty much what I expected, potent but a little boring.

I was hoping the White Mage Arcanist archetype would be a little bit more than it turned out to be, but it basically just trades a couple exploits to get a very expensive version of the cleric's spontaneous casting + breath of life.

For all the hype, Slayer just felt a little boring. Between him and the Investigator I probably won't ever need to play a Rogue, but I was already playing Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, and Rangers instead of Rogues anyways.

Shaman may be my favorite after the Hunter. Lot of good stuff there.

I'm not feeling super impressed by Warpriest Blessings, but maybe I'm missing something. The class in general is solid.

Big fan of the Brawler being able to just straight up knock people out starting at level 4. That's cool.

Asteron

2014-08-14, 01:32 PM

So no to bards, or sorcs, or any spontaneous arcane caster.

:smallsigh: I had wondered. The name made seem like it would have those prereqs... I guess Sonny was fated to die!

stack

2014-08-14, 01:53 PM

So, oracles no longer get a level five feat, just divine protection as a class feature. And the rest are wisdom based, so it doesn't help them much. I guess you could dip for the domain/mystery/blessing and meet the spell requirement with a racial sla.

Craft (Cheese)

2014-08-14, 01:54 PM

I was hoping the White Mage Arcanist archetype would be a little bit more than it turned out to be, but it basically just trades a couple exploits to get a very expensive version of the cleric's spontaneous casting + breath of life.

That's actually good to hear: It's Paizo's normal modus operandi to make a huge deal out of arcane casters being able to cast Cure Light Wounds, but the Arcanist seems to be the new Mary Sue class so I was genuinely worried they'd do something like a "Trade one exploit to get all divine spells forever!" kinda deal.

I'm not feeling super impressed by Warpriest Blessings, but maybe I'm missing something. The class in general is solid.

In the playtest the warpriest had so much competing for their swift action every round (and blessings were generally so weak) that none of the blessings would ever really come into play in-game.

I actually took the time to rewrite all the Warpriest Blessings (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qepn?Warpriest-Blessings-Overhaul) while the playtest was going on; Can't say I'm surprised none of the devs took my advice.

Oazard

2014-08-14, 02:01 PM

I guess you could dip for the domain/mystery/blessing and meet the spell requirement with a racial sla.

Or dip 1 level of Oracle and take the Wood mystery's Bend the Grain revelation to gain a 2nd level Divine sla. :smallamused:

squiggit

2014-08-14, 02:05 PM

A lot of the archetypes for the old classes are kind of bland. Most of them are just ways to tack ACG features on an old class. Get aspects on a Druid or a super AnC on a ranger or inspiration on an alchemist and so on.

There's a lot of other minor annoyances too. The investigator archetype that gains firearms trades class features for deeds but doesn't gain grit.

The slayer felt like it didn't get enough effort put into it. It gets three or four new slayer talents (compare to twenty or so investigator talents). Its study target feature is basically just studied combat again and its quarry feature is basically the sand feature a second time.

Still a fun book overall.

jaydubs

2014-08-14, 02:07 PM

I really like Orator. I doubt a lot of people will take it since it's basically 2 feats to let an intelligence based character play party face, but I think it's going to end up in some of my builds anyway.

I feel like an imbecile not realizing that Pummeling Style was a style feat. Derp.

The fortuitous weapon ability looks promising (second attack of opportunity at -5 when you hit a target with an attack of opportunity).

Even though I have the pdf, I'm still eager to see it on d20pfsrd since I find that a lot easier to navigate, especially when cross-referencing would be useful.

BlackDragonKing

2014-08-14, 02:27 PM

So some initial thoughts:

Jesus @#$*ing Christ, the Arcanist looks like the most broken-arse monster of a class that has ever crawled out of Game Balance's nightmares. This thing is going to cause some frigging arguments at my table unless I'm hugely overestimating its power relative to other classes. Not looking forward to that. :smallsigh:

The Brawler is pretty damn cool. I was initially thinking it wasn't going to be worth much on account of parent class original sin, but...it has one of the crappiest capstone abilities in the game besides Monk of the Healing Hand, but the rest of it's good stuff. Martial Flexibility's the real selling point there, and I like that it and the Swash get to dodge around needing to be smart enough to cast a frigging Fireball just to use half the combat maneuvers without getting punched in the face. Definitely going to roll one of these. I'm thinking Pummeling Style giving it a Clustered Shot Pounce around level 8 will make it surprisingly lethal, even if it means I gotta give up Dragon Style. I like that gauntlets, brass knuckles, and other Close weapons are actually pretty good on this thing, too. Brawling Armor property gives a real nice cheap +2 to unarmed strikes and grappling, and the new Brawling WEAPON property on a gauntlet should allow me to buff CMB pretty decently. This is my new pick for the thinking man's full BAB class.

Swashbucklers are cool as hell, I just really really really hope it's not a class that's all flash and no substance in gameplay. Several of its decisions in design are baffling to me, however; two bad saves is a deep @#$*ing grave to dig yourself out of for a front liner, and it feels like the class has too many swift/immediate actions competing with its ability to buff those bad saves. I was really putting my bets on an alleged feat that would let you sub in your reflex save on a fort or will, but the actual feat, Twist Away, isn't much use to the swashbuckler, so I'm really thinking I've got no choice but to blow a LOT of wbl on buffing saves or take a 1-level dip into cleric to snag Divine Protection and get the Divine Grace I feel the class deserves.

Investigators tickle my fancy as the new skill master in this game while being more handy to have around than your average rogue. The Mastermind Archetype seems like a great BBEG, too, because he can block out a ton of the spy, scry, and fry strategies PCs attempt against their enemies without expending any resources at all. Great for baddies in social campaigns.

Shamans seem really cool, but I've been focused on their spirits and such rather than the spell list. They are probably the most MAD spell caster in the game, but you know? I'm OK with that. That's how it should bloody be for 9th-level casters.

Eldritch Scion Magus is a great archetype. It's an unprecedented paradigm shift, but I wanted a sorcerous-type spontaneous magus, and Paizo has obligingly made my favorite magical swordsman get in touch with the CHA side!

deuxhero

2014-08-14, 02:27 PM

What's it do exactly? You could already stick Student of Philosophy on an int based character for just a trait.

Anlashok

2014-08-14, 02:30 PM

Jesus @#$*ing Christ, the Arcanist looks like the most broken-arse monster of a class that has ever crawled out of Game Balance's nightmares.

Got some good news for you. The baseline wizard can (through an archetype) trade his spell school for Arcanist exploits/arcane pool. So it can't be the most broken thing ever when the wizard can pick up all its class features without the broken spell progression or limited spells prepared.

Shinken

2014-08-14, 02:44 PM

So, first of all: the book is gorgeous. I've only bought 3rd party pdfs the last few months, so seeing a book this well done with such a low price tag was very nice.
I've spotted a few editing mistakes (Investigators study their targets as a move action, but their Quick Study talent refers to standard actions), but nothing major.

I'm wondering what happens when an Arcanist takes Eldritch Heritage and the bloodline exploit. As per RAW, I think they would have a virtual sorcerer level of ECL-2, but would add their arcanist level to that - and if you're a single classed Arcanist, that is going to end up with a virtual sorcerer level higher than your character level (well, not "end up" - you surpass a Sorcerer at level 5). You would still need to spend feats to unlock higher level abilities, though. It's nothing gamebreaking, but I expect errata.

I liked the same classes I liked in the ACG, and I'm liking the archetypes even more. Snakebite Striker sounds very fun. I like Daring Champion specially because it allows an unmounted Cavalier. I also like the idea of Dares - it's not very powerful, but it's thematically appropriate. A Gunslinger that doesn't use guns is weird, but I understand why they did it. I'm a bit disappointed with the Feral Hunter - I expected something more along the lines of Cernd from Baldur's Gate 2. Steel Hound and Sleuth both appeal to me far more than standard Inquisitor, since it feels more thematically apropriate. Arcane Deed is overpowered. I don't like the Kata Master - there is no connection between kata and panache and having both a ki pool and a panache pool sounds awful. Can't see why Wildcat is a Monk archetype instead of a Brawler archetype. I like all of the Slayer archetypes. In fact, I like all things Slayer. Mysterous Stranger is less than I expected, but still cool. Not sure why Picaroon gets abilities that only work with two-weapon fighting but keeps Precise Strike.

Gotta hit the bar now, but I still have to check the feats. All in all, 10 dollars well spent.

jaydubs

2014-08-14, 02:58 PM

What's it do exactly? You could already stick Student of Philosophy on an int based character for just a trait.

It lets you use linguistics instead of diplomacy/bluff/intimidate to change attitudes or make people do what you want.

I'm not saying it's optimal, since it's usually better just to let someone else handle it. I'll probably end up using it in my builds nonetheless because:
1) There are so many great traits I often end up taking a drawback and the additional traits feat and still running out.
2) Student of philosophy doesn't make bluff/diplomacy into class skills, so you need two more traits if you want those to be high. And it doesn't cover intimidate. So if you actually are aiming for similar coverage with traits, you end up spending 2 feats worth of them, plus more skill points, and you wouldn't get skill focus or end up speaking every language ever. (Skill focus in linguistics is the prerequisite, so it's like getting skill focus in 4 skills.)

Bhaakon

2014-08-14, 03:02 PM

Got some good news for you. The baseline wizard can (through an archetype) trade his spell school for Arcanist exploits/arcane pool. So it can't be the most broken thing ever when the wizard can pick up all its class features without the broken spell progression or limited spells prepared.

A well prepared wizard might still have slight edge at certain levels thanks to earlier access to high level spells, but an Arcanist is a wizard with an easy button. You get to be 95% of the awesome with 5% of the preparation. Especially if the arcanist has quick study. At that point it's virtually a sorcerer with access to the entire class spell list (yeah, a wizard with the archetype can do it, too, but he only gets one instance of the spell instead of 4+).

Eldritch Scion Magus is a great archetype. It's an unprecedented paradigm shift, but I wanted a sorcerous-type spontaneous magus, and Paizo has obligingly made my favorite magical swordsman get in touch with the CHA side!

It's the archetype we've been waiting for since the Magus was created. I think the concept always made more sense as a fighter-sorcerer mix than as prepared caster. Too bad they nerfed spell combat in the process (not badly enough to make it unusable, but enough to make it annoying).

There's a lot of other minor annoyances too. The investigator archetype that gains firearms trades class features for deeds but doesn't gain grit.

The Amateur Gunslinger feat grants a grit pool, albeit a gimped one in that doesn't replenish past 1 with rest.

Anlashok

2014-08-14, 03:08 PM

A well prepared wizard might still have slight edge at certain levels thanks to earlier access to high level spells, but an Arcanist is a wizard with an easy button. You get to be 95% of the awesome with 5% of the preparation. Especially if the arcanist has quick study.

My point was that thanks to Exploiter Wizard, the Wizard can pick up gems like quick study too.

Bhaakon

2014-08-14, 03:15 PM

kardar233

2014-08-14, 03:26 PM

I have to say, I'm looking forward to a chance to play a Brawler. They seem like a martial class that is fun and useful and fits a favourite character of mine that I've been itching to play for a while.

Craft (Cheese)

2014-08-14, 03:41 PM

And my point was that the exploits are nice, but the arcanist would be ridiculously broken even if its only class feature was the casting mechanic. It's nearly as good as wizard and much, much easier to play up to its potential.

Also, that Quick Learner is more effective with the archanist mechanic than Vancian casting, since re-memorizing a spell slot can result in multiple castings.

I'm gonna make the same suggestion I made during the playtest:

1. Reduce spells prepared per day to something like the spirit shaman progression. (It sounds like they've already done this with the Eldritch Font archetype but I'd have to see the book myself to judge.)

2. Change the spellbook to something else (even if it's mechanically identical) just to give an arcanist some flavor distinction from the wizard. My suggestion is/was to say that an arcanist is surrounded by a "cloak" of whirling spell energy that she "pulls" her daily spells from, in place of a spellbook. As the arcanist increases in level and learns more spells, the spellcloak grows in visual intensity: Starting as a barely visible aura and ending as a whirl of rainbow colors that outshines the sun, unless the arcanist takes measures to hide it.

3. Take the exploits and place them in thematically coherent packages, and only allow each arcanist access to one package. Separate the really good exploits (after some nerfs to make them more reasonable) like MyLittleIncantatrix and UncannyMemoryLoss into different package sets.

Psyren

2014-08-14, 03:46 PM

The new Jabbing Style is nice for dex-focused monks/brawlers who need more damage on their attacks.

Anything Bard (or Bardic Performance, because at least 3 other classes can get it) specific? Paizo's previous bard feats have been so poor as to be useless or so good as to be mandatory.

Battle Cry: Cha times per day, as a swift action you give all allies (which includes yourself, thanks to the FAQ) +1 morale to attack and +4 vs. fear for a minute. That's not a big deal since even bless does that - but the cool part is that if you or any of your allies fails a save during this time, you/they can burn the battlecry with respect to themselves to reroll the save. So basically, you are going to want this feat and use it at the first round of every combat.

Improved/Greater Dirge of Doom: You can power up your Dirge of Doom to AoE frighten/panic enemies respectively. The downside is that you must make them shaken by another means, e.g. Dazzling Display.

Intimidating Performance: lets you demoralize a foe as a standard the same round you start a performance as a move/swift, using Perform instead of Intimidate. The kicker though is that if you also have Dazzling Display, you can do that instead, again using Perform instead of Intimidate. This combos well with the Dirges above, letting you AoE panic foes within 2 rounds.

Riving Strike: If you hit a foe with Arcane Strike, they take a -2 penalty on saving throws vs. spells and SLAs for 1 round. This is better for Magi but Bards can use it too.

Slashing Grace: Dex to damage with whips is of course quite nice for bards. There is also that other feat coming out that will make it work with rapiers.

EDIT: I haven't finished reading through the arcanist but they have very small spells/day, on par with a Witch or Generalist Wizard. Even less half the time, because they are on the sorcerer's delayed progression (i.e. 9th-level spells at 18 rather than 17.)

deuxhero

2014-08-14, 03:51 PM

Knew about IDoD, but the rest look pretty neat.

bulbaquil

2014-08-14, 04:06 PM

My rogue 3/sorcerer 3 with aspirations of going arcane trickster is salivating at that Twist Away feat. So he'd be staggered for a round... he'd hardly ever have to make Fortitude saves again!

NightbringerGGZ

2014-08-14, 04:07 PM

I am salivating over the Investigator (which was always my favorite concept) - particularly the iconic investigator, Quinn, (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg64&page=2?Meet-the-Iconics-Quinn) and his excellent backstory. (Defense attorney powers, activate!)

I'm also highly interested in the archetypes. I'm going to help update Cieryn's excellent combo handbook in a little while here.

I've been playing one for a couple of months now and it has been a blast! I'll be posting a thread later asking for people's thoughts on optimizing it.

Slashing Grace: Dex to damage with whips is of course quite nice for bards. There is also that other feat coming out that will make it work with rapiers.

Which feat is this?

deuxhero

2014-08-14, 04:21 PM

From what I've heard there's going to be a lot to add to my handbook isn't there?

So he'd be staggered for a round...

There are a bunch of things that negate stagger aren't there?

Psyren

2014-08-14, 04:23 PM

I've been playing one for a couple of months now and it has been a blast! I'll be posting a thread later asking for people's thoughts on optimizing it.

So far my favorite archetype is Empiricist, which completes your transformation into a Factotum v2. They get Int to nearly everything - Perception, UMD, Disable Device, Sense Motive, Diplomacy checks to gather information, even will saves to disbelieve. Basically you out-logic the universe. And all you give up for that are the crappy poison abilities and swift alchemy.

My personal suggestion would be to get Ranged Study as fast as possible because they are on the squishy side.

jaydubs

2014-08-14, 04:31 PM

The Undersized Mount feat lets you ride creatures of your size category. If multiple people took it...

Psyren

2014-08-14, 04:53 PM

Which feat is this?

Fencing Grace is the feat they are coming out with. I'm trying to find the original post where JB leaked it, instead of the myriad people quoting him.

NightbringerGGZ

2014-08-14, 05:02 PM

Fencing Grace is the feat they are coming out with. I'm trying to find the original post where JB leaked it, instead of the myriad people quoting him.

Thanks Psyren! I found the post on Jason's profile page: http://paizo.com/people/JasonBulmahn/posts

Psyren

2014-08-14, 05:05 PM

Thanks Psyren! I found the post on Jason's profile page: http://paizo.com/people/JasonBulmahn/posts

*slaps forehead*
Now why didn't I think of doing that? :smallsigh:

(sidenote - I wonder if this and SG will let you TWF with unarmed strike in your offhand and still get the bonuses?)

NightbringerGGZ

2014-08-14, 05:14 PM

*slaps forehead*
Now why didn't I think of doing that? :smallsigh:

(sidenote - I wonder if this and SG will let you TWF with unarmed strike in your offhand and still get the bonuses?)

That would be feat intensive. Why not just take Slashing Grace (Unarmed Strike) after picking up a Style Feat that lets you deal slashing damage? You could easily work it into a monk build by level 5, possibly earlier but I'll have to look at builds to be sure.

Also, I think there might be a ruling that prevented people from trying to combo Dervish Dance and Unarmed Strike at some point. That might just be in my head though.

Anlashok

2014-08-14, 05:19 PM

That would be feat intensive. Why not just take Slashing Grace (Unarmed Strike) after picking up a Style Feat that lets you deal slashing damage?

Because Unarmed Strikes are a light weapon and Slashing Grace doesn't work for light weapons.

Baroncognito

2014-08-14, 06:12 PM

Swashbucklers are cool as hell, I just really really really hope it's not a class that's all flash and no substance in gameplay. Several of its decisions in design are baffling to me, however; two bad saves is a deep @#$*ing grave to dig yourself out of for a front liner, and it feels like the class has too many swift/immediate actions competing with its ability to buff those bad saves. I was really putting my bets on an alleged feat that would let you sub in your reflex save on a fort or will, but the actual feat, Twist Away, isn't much use to the swashbuckler, so I'm really thinking I've got no choice but to blow a LOT of wbl on buffing saves or take a 1-level dip into cleric to snag Divine Protection and get the Divine Grace I feel the class deserves.

Yeah. I really think charmed life is disappointing. Your Oracle, Cleric, or Warpriest can get Charisma to all saves for the cost of a feat, but a Swashbuckler can only get it 7 times per day (or 10 times if you're a mysterious avenger) and at the cost of an immediate action, so never more than once per round.

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-14, 06:20 PM

Can someone confirm that this is actually in the book?

Mastermind's Inspiration (Ex): A mastermind can use inspiration on any Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge, or skill checks without spending a use of inspiration. This ability alters inspiration.

NightbringerGGZ

2014-08-14, 06:31 PM

Can someone confirm that this is actually in the book?

Mastermind’s Inspiration (Ex): A mastermind can use inspiration on any Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge, or skill checks without spending a use of inspiration. This ability alters inspiration.

Pretty obvious that this is a typo, and it isn't the only bad typo I've seen. Take a look at the first paragraph of the new "Dares" system:

Dares are similar to deeds in that they grant a gunslinger or a swashbuckler extra abilities based on either grit or panache, but unlike deeds, dares become active when a member of these classes runs out of her respective pool, and become inactive until the character regains points of their respective pool. They grant the character a benefit and a new ability to regain or increase the ability to regain either grit or panache.

Dares become active at 0 Grit and inactive until Grit > 0...

Psyren

2014-08-14, 06:35 PM

Can someone confirm that this is actually in the book?

Yes. It's pretty clearly a typo.

Mastermind’s Inspiration (Ex): A mastermind can use inspiration on any Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge, or skill checks without spending a use of inspiration. This ability alters inspiration.

Pretty obvious that this is a typo, and it isn't the only bad typo I've seen. Take a look at the first paragraph of the new "Dares" system:

Dares are similar to deeds in that they grant a gunslinger or a swashbuckler extra abilities based on either grit or panache, but unlike deeds, dares become active when a member of these classes runs out of her respective pool, and become inactive until the character regains points of their respective pool. They grant the character a benefit and a new ability to regain or increase the ability to regain either grit or panache.

Dares become active at 0 Grit and inactive until Grit > 0...

Yeah it should probably be "they become inactive once the character regains points."

deuxhero

2014-08-14, 06:43 PM

My Samurai/Mammoth Rider wants that first one.

It's an "or", but its selected daily.

Dusk Eclipse

2014-08-14, 06:49 PM

Any idea of when will the ACG content will hit the PFSRD? I don't have a PF group right now so I can't rationalize spending money in books I won't use...as much as I would like to.

NightbringerGGZ

2014-08-14, 06:51 PM

Agreed. The only good thing about the errors I've spotted is that they pretty obviously are typos, which makes coming up with a reasonable RAI easy.

Prime32

2014-08-14, 06:51 PM

Hunter looks fun - it can cover most ranger or druid concepts (particularly once you bring in archetypes), but at a power level closer to Tier 3. And the inquisitor's Sacred Huntsmaster archetype is practically a Hunter with a different spell list. :smalltongue:

A Slayer with the Deliverer archetype, Slayer's Feint and Merciless Butchery feels kind of like Link. Its Sniper archetype lets you spend a talent to increase the range of your sneak attack by +5ft, but that's pointless since there's already a talent that increases it by +10ft and can be taken multiple times.

Snakebite Striker's ability to feint as part of a move has potential for combos with Blistering Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/blistering-feint-combat-ifrit) and a Pyrokineticist dip. Now if only there were some way to get whips into the Close weapon group...

The rogue's Underground Chemist archetype reverses some of PF's bizarre nerfs to splash weapons, and also grants +Int to damage... but you can only sneak attack with them on your first attack of the round. :smallsigh:

Some interesting spells in there, like mindlocked messenger and whip of spiders.

squiggit

2014-08-14, 06:52 PM

The more I look at the hunter the more I feel it's less "ranger 2.0/halfdruid" and the more I feel like it's actually a summoner variant.

Zrak

2014-08-14, 07:10 PM

So no to bards, or sorcs, or any spontaneous arcane caster.

Not on their own, no, but they can get it for a one-level dip instead of a two-level dip, now, and a dip that probably gives them more benefits in the long run. Aasimar [Divine Caster] 1/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 10 casts as a 14th level sorcerer, qualifies for Divine Protection, and gets eleven levels of cleric/oracle/druid casting as a fun bonus. If Aasimar is off the table, I think the only option is to go Wood Oracle and use the Bend the Grain revelation to qualify for the feat.

Craft (Cheese)

2014-08-14, 07:11 PM

Any idea of when will the ACG content will hit the PFSRD? I don't have a PF group right now so I can't rationalize spending money in books I won't use...as much as I would like to.

"Sometime in September" apparently (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rcql?Advanced-Class-Guide-on-the-PRD#9)

Sayt

2014-08-14, 07:13 PM

Slayer's skill boosts from Studied Target (a MUCH better name) no longer stack up, which I hope is a typo.

Seize Advantage and the Answering magic weapon property are positively gorgeous, and my desire to play a Serpentfolk Swashbuckler is only rising.

I feel the classes are actually fairly well supported in terms of feats and magic items.

Hunter's getting SKirmisher's Hunter's Tricks is interesting, especially with the ability to give your Animal companion free movement from Stag's Leap, free action to make a running jump, without the runn up!

Also, the fact that you could stack Stunning Fist, Staggering Fist, Dazing Fist and Paralyzing Strike can all be stacked on the same attack to force 4 saves amuses me.

Also, Pummeling Style seems really good paired with the Gifted Fist Soulknife, letting you get a 17-20 threat range, and if one attack (Of say, six or so?) confirms a crit, they all crit? Maybe not the best, but I am still alight with glee.

Anlashok

2014-08-14, 07:17 PM

I hated Studied Target.

I mean the Investigator already does Studied Combat, why does the Slayer need to do it too?

Then at level 14 Slayers get Quarry which is like, the revenge of studied target.

Psyren

2014-08-14, 07:20 PM

Any idea of when will the ACG content will hit the PFSRD? I don't have a PF group right now so I can't rationalize spending money in books I won't use...as much as I would like to.

No clue, sorry. But since it's OGL we can at least answer any questions you have/provide quotes etc.

EDIT: Better estimate provided above

Agreed. The only good thing about the errors I've spotted is that they pretty obviously are typos, which makes coming up with a reasonable RAI easy.

And hopefully RAW once they FAQ/errata them.

Hunter looks fun - it can cover most ranger or druid concepts (particularly once you bring in archetypes), but at a power level closer to Tier 3. And the inquisitor's Sacred Huntsmaster archetype is practically a Hunter with a different spell list. :smalltongue:

A Slayer with the Deliverer archetype, Slayer's Feint and Merciless Butchery feels kind of like Link. Its Sniper archetype lets you spend a talent to increase the range of your sneak attack by +5ft, but that's pointless since there's already a talent that increases it by +10ft and can be taken multiple times.

Snakebite Striker's ability to feint as part of a move has potential for combos with Blistering Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/blistering-feint-combat-ifrit) and a Pyrokineticist dip. Now if only there were some way to get whips into the Close weapon group...

The rogue's Underground Chemist archetype reverses some of PF's bizarre nerfs to splash weapons, and also grants +Int to damage... but you can only sneak attack with them on your first attack of the round. :smallsigh:

Some interesting spells in there, like mindlocked messenger and whip of spiders.

Your first sentence is exactly why I was interested in Hunter to begin with!

For the rogue - curiously, underground chemist doesn't specify that sneak attack damage isn't added to the splash damage. It simply gets added to splash weapons, so RAW I would think that lets you get SA on everyone in the blast radius, as silly as that is.

Counterfeit Mage is nice too - they exchange trapfinding for... trapfinding (:smalltongue:), can use wands without UMD, and get to use Dex with UMD instead of Cha for wands. I love the artwork too.

Dusk Eclipse

2014-08-14, 07:22 PM

"Sometime in September" apparently (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rcql?Advanced-Class-Guide-on-the-PRD#9)

Damn, oh well I guess I can wait a month or so.

Prime32

2014-08-14, 09:25 PM

The Snakebite Striker archetype seems like it could make a good combo with Unfolding Wind Rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/unfolding-wind-rush-combat-style). As long as you have Improved Feint and at least 3 levels in Brawler you get to move, feint and make multiple attacks in the same turn. With Greater Feint you can turn it into multiple sneak attacks.

Alleran

2014-08-14, 10:03 PM

I've been playing a Oracle-leaning Oradin as of late, and it seems that there's a single feat which makes my two-level dip into Paladin somewhat redundant: Divine Protection, which gives +CHA to all saving throws. It's basically Divine Grace for the rest of us.
Something I noticed in there is Believer's Boon. Requires WIS 13 and an alignment within one step of your deity. In exchange, you get access to a domain (the 1st level power, usable 1/day). So using that to take the Trickery domain will give you 2nd level divine spells and the domain ability, which as a result opens up Divine Protection for non-Oracles.

Amusingly enough, Divine Protection was banned from PFS play before the book even hit the street date. At least somebody realised how ludicrously powerful it was.

deuxhero

2014-08-14, 10:11 PM

I take it that feat doesn't let a caster prepare the spells?

Alleran

2014-08-14, 10:15 PM

Does that feat give the spells?
That's what you pick the Trickery domain for. Since it's a 2nd level spell coming from a domain (thus divine), and since per their FAQ rulings a spell-like ability counts as spells for prerequisites, you meet the spell requirement and the domain requirement.

Doc_Maynot

2014-08-14, 10:18 PM

The Disheartening Display feat, just in time for my Inquisitor.

Anderlith

2014-08-14, 10:29 PM

Okay so I don't have the book but I'd like to ask a question for those that do.

Is the Investigator or it's Archetypes a valid Pathfinder version of the Factotum?

What are the Archetypes of the Wizard, Paladin & the Magus? I don't need detail just the jist

deuxhero

2014-08-15, 12:16 AM

Seize Advantage and the Answering magic weapon property are positively gorgeous, and my desire to play a Serpentfolk Swashbuckler is only rising.

What do these do?

Bhaakon

2014-08-15, 12:21 AM

Is the Investigator or it's Archetypes a valid Pathfinder version of the Factotum?

It depends on your definition of "valid," but I'd say so. Especially if you take the empiricist archetype. I'd say that it's a touch less versatile, but it won't burn through its bag of tricks as quickly.

What are the Archetypes of the Wizard, Paladin & the Magus? I don't need detail just the jist

Wizard gets an archetype that allows it cast spells from the bard, cleric, or druid list to a very limited extent. The other archetypes borrow complex mechanics from the new classes that can't be explained briefly if you haven't read the book.

Paladin has a archetype that gives it favored terrain and bonus teamwork feats. A second trade spellcasting for a domain with some added powers. I don't think either are that great.

Magus gets spontaneous casting archetype.

squiggit

2014-08-15, 12:22 AM

What do these do?

Seize Advantage lets a Swashbuckler's Riposte benefit from their opponent's power attack damage bonus. Answering weapon gains a +4 enhancement bonus while parry/riposting.

Bhaakon

2014-08-15, 12:24 AM

Seize Advantage lets a Swashbuckler's Riposte benefit from their opponent's power attack damage bonus. Answering weapon gains a +4 enhancement bonus while parry/riposting.

These seem like nice wrenches for the tricky DM toolbox, but a bit too situational for PCs.

Chris Robin R2

2014-08-15, 01:34 AM

Damn, oh well I guess I can wait a month or so.

You realize they're talking about the PRD and not the PFSRD, right?

Craft (Cheese)

2014-08-15, 01:48 AM

You realize they're talking about the PRD and not the PFSRD, right?

That's absolutely true, but we'll see: The PFSRD can be even slower to put up new content than the PRD, at times.

Sayt

2014-08-15, 02:02 AM

Seize Advantage lets a Swashbuckler's Riposte benefit from their opponent's power attack damage bonus. Answering weapon gains a +4 enhancement bonus while parry/riposting.

Ah, technically, Answering increases your weapons enhancement bonus by +4 (to a max of +5), so a +1 Answering is a +5 weapon for parry and ripostes.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 02:19 AM

The PFSRD is already starting to add some things, like the Style Feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats) (Jabbing, Grabbing, Pummeling.)

jamieth

2014-08-15, 03:12 AM

Since I know I'm blind to things like that, could anyone please confirm/disprove that from a mechanical standpoint, Bloodrager's Bloodrage is exactly the same as the normal rage?

-Thanks in advance.

Craft (Cheese)

2014-08-15, 03:23 AM

Since I know I'm blind to things like that, could anyone please confirm/disprove that from a mechanical standpoint, Bloodrager's Bloodrage is exactly the same as the normal rage?

-Thanks in advance.

In the playtest, bloodrage counts as rage for the purposes of feats, spells, magic items, and class abilities that refer to rage. Can't confirm that this is so in the final book, but I can't conceive of any rational reason why they would change that. (Then again we've already seen dumber changes from the playtest...)

jamieth

2014-08-15, 03:29 AM

In the playtest, bloodrage counts as rage for the purposes of feats, spells, magic items, and class abilities that refer to rage. Can't confirm that this is so in the final book, but I can't conceive of any rational reason why they would change that. (Then again we've already seen dumber changes from the playtest...)

Yep, just looked it up - it does count as rage.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 07:55 AM

ACG 16: "Bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s rage class feature for the purpose of feat prerequisites, feat abilities, magic item abilities, and spell effects."

The big difference between the two is that at 4th level, bloodragers can cast while bloodraging.

Also, for the Skald - ACG 49: "A raging song counts as the bard’s bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances. A skald may learn bard masterpieces."

Finally, both can cast in medium armor and the skald can cast with a shield while ignoring ASF. (Not sure how this interacts with their need to have a hand free.)

deuxhero

2014-08-15, 08:43 AM

Oh does Skald still have that thing from the bard where even a tower shield wouldn't stop their casting?

Zanos

2014-08-15, 08:51 AM

Can Human Arcanists still abuse the hell out of the Sorcerer FC bonus?

Psyren

2014-08-15, 08:52 AM

Oh does Skald still have that thing from the bard where even a tower shield wouldn't stop their casting?

Correct, it's the same wording. (Do note though that tower shields work differently in PF.)

Can Human Arcanists still abuse the hell out of the Sorcerer FC bonus?

Can you elaborate?

There are specific favored class options for the new classes - They are not "alternate classes" of the old ones anymore, so I don't think you can mix and match FC bonuses.

magotter

2014-08-15, 08:54 AM

Welp, I just think I found a way to break the game... sort of.

In the new ACG there is a feat called Inspired Alchemy, which requires 2nd-level Alchemy and a source of Inspiration to take. It's basically a version of the Magus's Spell Recall. By spending 10 minutes and blowing a number of Inspiration points equal to Spell Level, an alchemist and/or Investigator can recover a Extract Spell Slot.

Now, on its own, that's kinda neat for Investigators; like I said, it's basically Spell Recall. However, there's a new Alchemist Archetype called Inspired Chemist. Their big deal is that they get a special kind of Cognatogen, which gives them a new pool of inspiration every time they drink the mutagen (as well as +2 Dodge AC and -2 STR/CON). There's also a downside, but I'll get to that.

Basically, the combination thereof means that every hour, an Inspired Chemist gets to bring back a number of Spell Levels worth of extract equal to (1/2 Alchemist Level + INT). There are limitations, but this is extremely potent.

Now, limitations are two-fold: It must be an extract he's expended/drank/etc already, for one. And each time he quaffs an Inspired Cognatogen, he takes 2 temporary points of STR and CON damage. The first can likely be gotten around since Inspired Alchemy would be used to restore commonly-used spells anyway, such as the broken Touch Injection/Skinsend combination.

The second is a bit trickier. Ability damage cures after 24 hours, but it means you can't spam the cognatogen on its own. However, Lesser Restoration is a 2nd-level Alchemist spell, so if you just utilize that once or twice after each dose of the cognatogen (and then use the inspired alchemy to restore it), you'll have at least some leftover pool to freely restore other spells.

Tell me, is this too much time and effort for free Recall on spells? Would it only be viable at higher levels and higher intelligence scores? or is free spells worth any investiture of time and effort?

Psyren

2014-08-15, 09:06 AM

magotter

2014-08-15, 09:19 AM

You can only recover an extract you've drunk in the past hour, and it takes you an hour to make the cognatogen. So realistically, at most you're recovering a single extract this way, and you further need the restoration extract to recover the ability damage. I wouldn't say it's broken, just a neat trick for a pinch.

Ah, you're right; in my giddy haste I failed to note the 1 hour limitation. So perhaps blow the 21k in gold on a Wand of Restoration or Lesser Restoration, which would make it more viable. Still could be good for restoring up to 5 to 6 uses of Alchemical Allocation if you have the Cognatogen on hand before you quaff the A.A. (and then a half dozen free potions).

Zanos

2014-08-15, 09:41 AM

There are specific favored class options for the new classes - They are not "alternate classes" of the old ones anymore, so I don't think you can mix and match FC bonuses.
I was informed in one of the previous threads that the Hybrid classes could use FC bonuses of their "parent" classes, and that abilities which added spells known instead added to the Arcanists number of prepared spells per day, making a Human Arcanist with the Sorcerer FC bonus hilariously versatile.

Beowulf DW

2014-08-15, 09:47 AM

Psyren

2014-08-15, 09:52 AM

I was informed in one of the previous threads that the Hybrid classes could use FC bonuses of their "parent" classes, and that abilities which added spells known instead added to the Arcanists number of prepared spells per day, making a Human Arcanist with the Sorcerer FC bonus hilariously versatile.

I think this was present in the playtest but it appears not to have made it to the final product. The only rule regarding the parent classes that I see is that their class features don't stack (e.g. bloodrager bloodline and sorcerer bloodline), and that whatever choice you make for one must be the same choice as for the other. In other words, they are heavily discouraging multiclassing between hybrid and parent. There is no rule about being allowed to take sorcerer FC bonuses on an arcanist etc.

Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two
classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme.
While a character can multiclass with these parent classes,
this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities
don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the
character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline),
that choice must match similar choices made by the parent
classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

Craft (Cheese)

2014-08-15, 10:18 AM

That's great news! It's pretty much the thing that made Arcanists almost strictly superior to the Sorcerer. Now Arcanists are only strictly superior to non-human/half-elf sorcs. But it's progress!

Is there any word on how feats that give extra spells known interact with the Arcanist?

Psyren

2014-08-15, 10:28 AM

Is there any word on how feats that give extra spells known interact with the Arcanist?

Erm... the same way they work for Wizard, I guess? Arcanists don't have "spells known," they are prepared casters.

Beyond that - to your half-elf comment - have you seen the Paragon Surge FAQ? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gh)

Talya

2014-08-15, 11:31 AM

Beyond that - to your half-elf comment - have you seen the Paragon Surge FAQ? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gh)

That's a good change to paragon surge. Though it's still an outstanding spell, and still probably puts a half-elf sorcerer/oracle at the bottom of tier 1.

Chris Robin R2

2014-08-15, 12:21 PM

Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare.

So that's still in. The human class bonus is the wizard one, basically.

Add one spell from the arcanist spell list to the arcanist’s spellbook. The spell must be at least 1 spell level below the highest level the arcanist can cast.

I guess you could try and argue that it's an effect that modifies spells known, so it changes spells prepared, although that seems clearly not as intended.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 12:41 PM

I would say no, because the FCB says nothing about "spells known." It just puts them in your book. So you do not get more spells prepared out of it.

Giddonihah

2014-08-15, 12:44 PM

Animal Soul is hilarious and perhaps potentially broken. It makes you count as an animal, animal companion or special mount for the purpose of spells. So if you can figure out a way to get your int low enough you could get awakened :smalltongue:.

Shinken

2014-08-15, 01:26 PM

Giddonihah

2014-08-15, 01:39 PM

Feeblemind?

That should work. And scarily works multiple times as even when Awaken turns you into a magical beast, Animal Soul makes you count as an animal.

Dusk Eclipse

2014-08-15, 01:41 PM

Doesn't awaken give you a couple of RHD? Well since this is pretty much TO you could probably "Do the Wight thing" to deal with those extra HD.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 01:49 PM

Doesn't awaken give you a couple of RHD? Well since this is pretty much TO you could probably "Do the Wight thing" to deal with those extra HD.

Not in Pathfinder - you can't lose HD or levels from level drain.

Dusk Eclipse

2014-08-15, 01:52 PM

Damn.... well then an "infinite" Awaken loop isn't that good.

Giddonihah

2014-08-15, 01:59 PM

The RHD still gives feats, Hitpoints, Saves and skills, with Awaken giving Charisma and Int you end up with all skills maxed and insane over the top knowledge and social skills. When all skill checks are effectively 'yes' and you have every feat in the game that's not class specific, you are still going to be very strong.

Take 4 levels of Cavalier for Horse Master and you get an animal companion that scales with your Racial Hit die, and you can use a bunch of your feats to buff it with evolution points and stuff from the ACG to make it fly.

On the less broken side of Animal Soul, Animal growth is a superior enlarge person, and it might be nice enough to justify getting Animal Soul by itself.

squiggit

2014-08-15, 02:03 PM

I just started building a Wyvaran hunter (terrible race without 3.P I know, but I like them) and I've been having fun with it.

The more I look the more I'm underwhelmed by the new Druid/ranger spells though and the Hunter really suffers from being a true 6th level caster. Unlike say, Inquisitor, Summoner or Bard who have 8ths/9ths on their "six level" list.

Dusk Eclipse

2014-08-15, 02:04 PM

What is a Wyvaran?

Zanos

2014-08-15, 02:05 PM

I would say no, because the FCB says nothing about "spells known." It just puts them in your book. So you do not get more spells prepared out of it.
Hm, are there any other effects that add to spells known that I could reasonably exploit with an Arcanist?

137beth

2014-08-15, 02:09 PM

How did they handle warpriests without deities? I recall that being choppy in the playtest.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 02:31 PM

That's a good change to paragon surge. Though it's still an outstanding spell, and still probably puts a half-elf sorcerer/oracle at the bottom of tier 1.

Naw, it just takes an extra feat now.

Zanos

2014-08-15, 02:34 PM

Naw, it just takes an extra feat now.
Emergency Attunement (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Emergency%20Attunement), I believe?

squiggit

2014-08-15, 02:44 PM

What is a Wyvaran?

Hybrid of a Kobold and Wyvern +2 dex/wis -2 int, dragon type, 30ft(clumsy) fly, slapping tail(1d8 natural attack only usable on AoOs), dark/low light vision.

http://i.imgur.com/t3sH8xy.png look like that.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 02:46 PM

Vhaidara

2014-08-15, 02:47 PM

So, looking through it, I like most of the classes (Arcanist aside, mostly in a "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?"). Hunter looks really fun to me.

I was just skimming through Feats and saw Counterpunch. You get to make an AoO when unarmed and someone mises you. This is all I can think of (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzNo0bo_9E0)

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-15, 03:13 PM

Naw, it just takes an extra feat now.Kind of. Oracles lost access to the wizard spell list in another FAQ, though, so tier 0 oracles aren't really a thing anymore.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 03:27 PM

Kind of. Oracles lost access to the wizard spell list in another FAQ, though, so tier 0 oracles aren't really a thing anymore.

This as well.

Though they now have Divine Grace so they're not doing too shabby regardless :smalltongue:

animewatcha

2014-08-15, 03:32 PM

Is it just me or did master of many styles monk just get quite a few new combinations to do with the new style feats?

HylianKnight

2014-08-15, 03:59 PM

In the playtest the warpriest had so much competing for their swift action every round (and blessings were generally so weak) that none of the blessings would ever really come into play in-game.

I actually took the time to rewrite all the Warpriest Blessings (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qepn?Warpriest-Blessings-Overhaul) while the playtest was going on; Can't say I'm surprised none of the devs took my advice.

Giving that you're a random person on an internet forum, I can't say I'm surprised either.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 04:05 PM

That lets you change to a different choice from the same list (i.e. a different feat, not a different spell.) It does not let you change the choices within the choice you made. So you can't change "Expanded Arcana: Spell A" to "Expanded Arcana: Spell B" as that would be choosing the same feat (even if you are trying to change what that feat gives you.) Similarly, you can't change "Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - New Arcana - Spell A" to "Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - New Arcana - Spell B" as that is the same feat again.

What you can do is go from "Expanded Arcana: Spell A" to "IEH(A) - NA - Spell B." But the first time you do that, your choices for both of these feats are locked in, so every time you switch back to them you will get the same two spells (A and B) every time. That's still two floating spells per day, so still very useful, but not unlimited versatility.
This is entirely debatable. For example, the spells grants you options off a list, it just happens to be through coincidence.

Kind of. Oracles lost access to the wizard spell list in another FAQ, though, so tier 0 oracles aren't really a thing anymore.I've dug through the FAQs and I can't find this. Help a pile o' snow out? :smalltongue:

These are very odd decisions considering the boost of power the Arcanist is compared to the oracle. The oracle was already pretty meh, considering it suffers from most of the problems favored soul does in 3.5.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 04:07 PM

Is it just me or did master of many styles monk just get quite a few new combinations to do with the new style feats?

Yep. Not only that, but MoMS still ignores the prereqs of all subsequent feats in the chain, and if you start with an unarmed fighter dip, you can skip the prereqs of the first feat as well.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 04:10 PM

Wait are there new style feats? Did they remove the silly requirements like improved unarmed?

Psyren

2014-08-15, 04:24 PM

This is entirely debatable. For example, the spells grants you options off a list, it just happens to be through coincidence.

The options the spell gives you are the feats themselves, not the spells granted by those feats. It lets you switch to a new feat from the list of allowed feats for Paragon Surge, but otherwise does not contradict the FAQ, which states that "all the associated choices" that go with those feats are locked in for the day the first time you select them.

I've dug through the FAQs and I can't find this. Help a pile o' snow out? :smalltongue:

That would be this one. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s54)

Wait are there new style feats? Did they remove the silly requirements like improved unarmed?

Grabbing style, Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style. Grabbing does not require IUS but the other two do (but Grabbing requires Improved Grapple, which itself requires IUS.)

As far as requiring IUS, these seemed aimed at Brawlers so it kind of makes sense that they do.

Shinken

2014-08-15, 04:25 PM

Giving that you're a random person on an internet forum, I can't say I'm surprised either.

I'm surprised you had to be this rude for no reason, though.

Wait are there new style feats? Did they remove the silly requirements like improved unarmed?

Why is Improved Unarmed Strike a silly requirement for all these unarmed combat styles? :smallconfused:

Did anyone else get a mental image of the Hyuga clan from Naruto while reading Jabbing Style?

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 04:45 PM

The options the spell gives you are the feats themselves, not the spells granted by those feats. It lets you switch to a new feat from the list of allowed feats for Paragon Surge, but otherwise does not contradict the FAQ, which states that "all the associated choices" that go with those feats are locked in for the day the first time you select them.
Nothing in either text indicates that.

That would be this one. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s54)

Oh you... okay, I have no word that would properly expressed this without getting censored. What about Samsarans, which was released before this? Or trying to improve your spell list legitimately without cheese? It's a 3 feat chain to learn 2 spells off another list.

It's bad enough you have to dig all over the place for these damn FAQ, but they release another blandification measure. Oracles are already stuck with a reactive spell list for the most part, so having less (id est zero) options to branch out should make little sense to anyone. Sounds like they REALLY want everyone to play Arcanists instead.

As far as requiring IUS, these seemed aimed at Brawlers so it kind of makes sense that they do.

Why is Improved Unarmed Strike a silly requirement for all these unarmed combat styles? :smallconfused:

Did anyone else get a mental image of the Hyuga clan from Naruto while reading Jabbing Style?
Classes with no class are the only ones that are allowed to have style, according to Paizo. It's the same problem with all feat chains have had for all of 3.x. Trying to get something out of your feats costs a whole bunch of feats you don't want. This is so certain classes with no value gain some artificial importance. They really should cut down on all of this feat tax stuff so it can open up more interesting combinations.

I'm not a Naruto fan, either. *hides*

Psyren

2014-08-15, 04:53 PM

Nothing in either text indicates that.

All I can do is point you to the FAQ - it's quite clear, both in wording and intent. The first time you choose a feat, you are locked into the associated choices that come with it; it's not a toolbox (at least, not more than once per day.)

Oh you... okay, I have no word that would properly expressed this without getting censored. What about Samsarans, which was released before this? Or trying to improve your spell list legitimately without cheese? It's a 3 feat chain to learn 2 spells off another list.

Samsaran explicitly adds them to the list so it is in the clear, as do pretty much all other legitimate-without-cheese means.

It's bad enough you have to dig all over the place for these damn FAQ, but they release another blandification measure. Oracles are already stuck with a reactive spell list for the most part, so having less (id est zero) options to branch out should make little sense to anyone. Sounds like they REALLY want everyone to play Arcanists instead.

You're kidding, right? :smallconfused: Oracles are more than fine, especially now.

Classes with no class are the only ones that are allowed to have style, according to Paizo. It's the same problem with all feat chains have had for all of 3.x. Trying to get something out of your feats costs a whole bunch of feats you don't want. This is so certain classes with no value gain some artificial importance. They really should cut down on all of this feat tax stuff so it can open up more interesting combinations.

Tax (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/unarmed-fighter) evasion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) :smalltongue:

PsyBomb

2014-08-15, 04:55 PM

Man, I wish I could justify buying this one... can someone put up details of the new styles?

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 05:02 PM

Samsaran explicitly adds them to the list so it is in the clear, as do pretty much all other legitimate-without-cheese means.
Eldritch Heritage?

You're kidding, right? :smallconfused: Oracles are more than fine, especially now.

Fine != good. In my very humble opinion the Wizard list is the one that is better suited for spontaneous casters. A larger portion of the cleric spells operate in specific circumstances, and will often be a waste of a spell known. This was one of the biggest problems with the favored soul in 3.5, too.

And cha to saves does not a class make. I don't see that as a large incentive to take it over a class that has a better casting stat and better base saves, especially if it costs you feats. They are, in fact, worse off without any options to improve their spell lists outside their caste.

Tax (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/unarmed-fighter) evasion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) :smalltongue:
*ahem*
Exactly my point!
This should not be!
Cookie cutters!
Feat chains are the worst!

EDIT: Psyren, the fighter option doesn't even function for this! It loses a bonus feat to get a feat tax you were taking while hoping it would work with your cool halberd!

Psyren

2014-08-15, 05:09 PM

Man, I wish I could justify buying this one... can someone put up details of the new styles?

Grabbing Style:
Feat 1: You can grapple one-handed without penalty and pin opponents without losing your Dex to AC. (This lets you grapple two foes at once.)
Feat 2: You can drag a single opponent at full speed while grappling them instead of half speed, then you can drag them half speed again with a move action.
Feat 3: You can damage or drag two foes you are grappling with the same action.

Jabbing Style (my personal favorite:)
Feat 1: You do extra damage to any foe you hit twice (1d6), and more if you hit them three times (2d6).
Feat 2: You can take a free 5-foot step every time you land an attack - you must end adjacent to the foe you hit. (You can circle a single foe or slide along a line of them etc.)
Feat 3: The extra damage from Feat 1 is doubled.

Pummeling Style:
Feat 1: Basically it's clustered shots for punching.
Feat 2: You can charge and make a clustered punch.
Feat 3: When you hit with your clustered punch, you get a free trip or reposition attempt. (You can combine this with feat 2 to trip/reposition after your charge.)

Eldritch Heritage?

Pick a spell that's on your list, it's not the end of the world. This nerf was absolutely needed.

Fine != good. In my very humble opinion the Wizard list is the one that is better suited for spontaneous casters. A larger portion of the cleric spells operate in specific circumstances, and will often be a waste of a spell known. This was one of the biggest problems with the favored soul in 3.5, too.

This gives you a very situational spell at a moment's notice, and the cleric list is chock-full of those. How often do you need to remove a curse, or remove blindness/paralysis, or restore someone to flesh - not often enough to need it as a spell known, I'll bet, but when you do need it I bet you'll be very glad to have it. Especially since you don't have to trek back to Magic Mart to do it.

And cha to saves does not a class make. I don't see that as a large incentive to take it over a class that has a better casting stat and better base saves, especially if it costs you feats. They are, in fact, worse off without any options to improve their spell lists outside their caste.

If "worse off" still lands me in T2, I'll take two with a side of fries, thanks.

*ahem*
Exactly my point!
This should not be!
Feat chains are the worst!

Right, so those two classes (and the Brawler, which is their hybrid) are the kings of style feats. That's fine! Working as intended!

Shinken

2014-08-15, 05:09 PM

Classes with no class are the only ones that are allowed to have style, according to Paizo. It's the same problem with all feat chains have had for all of 3.x. Trying to get something out of your feats costs a whole bunch of feats you don't want. This is so certain classes with no value gain some artificial importance. They really should cut down on all of this feat tax stuff so it can open up more interesting combinations.
I disagree. Improved Unarmed Strike is a desirable feat for several characters that don't get it as a bonus feat (specially good for natural attack builds that want to keep iteratives). You can't get much use out of the maneuvers if you provoke every time you attack anyway. Unless your point is that unarmed strikes should never provoke... no, wait, I disagree with that as well.
I mean, I understand where you're coming from with feat taxes, but I don't think it applies here. IUS is not like Combat Expertise, which you only ever take because it's a prerequisite for something else - it's the feat you take when you want to fight unarmed and it makes you better at fighting unarmed. Not requiring IUS for a Style feat would make no sense, IMHO.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 05:17 PM

Pick a spell that's on your list, it's not the end of the world. This nerf was absolutely needed.
Blandification! It's a 3 feat chain for 2 spells you wouldn't otherwise know. How isn't that fair?

If "worse off" still lands me in T2, I'll take two with a side of fries, thanks.
Power != good game design. Oracle was a misstep.

This gives you a very situational spell at a moment's notice, and the cleric list is chock-full of those. How often do you need to remove a curse, or remove blindness/paralysis, or restore someone to flesh - not often enough to need it as a spell known, I'll bet, but when you do need it I bet you'll be very glad to have it. Especially since you don't have to trek back to Magic Mart to do it.
I'll roll a sorcerer and solve the problem before it happens, or I'll roll a cleric and save myself the action, race choice, and complaints.

Right, so those two classes (and the Brawler, which is their hybrid) are the kings of style feats. That's fine! Working as intended!
Obviously the intent is to make the game worse by digging more holes in the graves of failed game designs.

People should be getting styles that function more readily with more weapons with less investment in order to improve mundane characters in terms of variety and functionality.

I disagree. Improved Unarmed Strike is a desirable feat for several characters that don't get it as a bonus feat (specially good for natural attack builds that want to keep iteratives). You can't get much use out of the maneuvers if you provoke every time you attack anyway. Unless your point is that unarmed strikes should never provoke... no, wait, I disagree with that as well.
I mean, I understand where you're coming from with feat taxes, but I don't think it applies here. IUS is not like Combat Expertise, which you only ever take because it's a prerequisite for something else - it's the feat you take when you want to fight unarmed and it makes you better at fighting unarmed. Not requiring IUS for a Style feat would make no sense, IMHO.
Thanks for the response, but that's generally wrong. Natural attack build HATE iterative attacks in PF. Their weapons loses their primary status, which costs considerable damage per hit and gives a -5 attack penalty. Almost all of them (and 100% of the good ones) have 3/4 BAB or worse, so iteratives are less of a concern and penalties tend to hurt more. Of course, there are times that you would want to pick it up for a cheap extra attack, but the math generally doesn't support it in PF.

Unarmed Attack should always provoke, and characters with that try should lose limbs. That's just my opinion of the concept for the most part. That has nothing to do with THIS. I just don't like monks in the first place. This is a feat problem, not a monk.

Why does it have to be unarmed? Where are the other style options that don't require you to train at a monastery to use? I like halberd styles and longsword fencing, for example. Where do I find the feat for a mordhau, or to jab the guy over and over with the blunt end of my polearm?

squiggit

2014-08-15, 05:19 PM

Power != good game design. Oracle was a misstep.
I'm not seeing it. Oracle is one of the cooler classes (design wise) in pathfinder's repertoire and easily one of the best fixes around to an inelegant 3.5 class.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 05:34 PM

I'm not seeing it. Oracle is one of the cooler classes (design wise) in pathfinder's repertoire and easily one of the best fixes around to an inelegant 3.5 class.

What? In the end it's just another caster that does nothing to stand out from the changes made to the other classes. In terms of the classes it's easily Summoner (adds custom monster) > Alchemist (preferring vivisectionist, actually building around faulty rogue design) > Magus (these guys blend casting+fighting, crits are crazy)> Witch (wizard but with the new wizard class features are now hexes) >= Oracle (divine sorc, redundant). Compared to the other PF original classes it really falls short. Probably the best part to give it credit is that it (for the most part) gets to choose in what order it gets it class features, but most of them are locked by level anyway.

Psyren

2014-08-15, 05:40 PM

Blandification! It's a 3 feat chain for 2 spells you wouldn't otherwise know. How isn't that fair?

You can still do that - they just have to be from your list now. There's plenty of goodies there. Useful without being broken.

Anyway, just use Expanded Arcana instead and now it's one feat (or none!) for that situational spell you need. Free/low-cost Limited Wish, available to oracles/bards and at a much lower level, is worth it.

Obviously the intent is to make the game worse by digging more holes in the graves of failed game designs.

Fine, fine, rage if you must but plenty of us are happy with this change. *shrug*

I'm not seeing it. Oracle is one of the cooler classes (design wise) in pathfinder's repertoire and easily one of the best fixes around to an inelegant 3.5 class.

Agreed 100%.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 05:51 PM

Fine, fine, rage if you must but plenty of us are happy with this change. *shrug*

Can do. By that I mean I'm done for today. PF has worn me out and I haven't even played it today.

I have no clue about any change, though. I thought my complaint in the quote text was more of a status quo problem. :smallconfused:

Psyren

2014-08-15, 06:02 PM

By change I meant "I and many others are happy that Tier 0 Oracle got nerfed all the way back down to the cloying depths of utter uselessness that is Tier 2." :smalltongue:

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 06:08 PM

A boring T2! :smalltongue:

But that's way off topic. The style feats are the relevant complaint. *nods head*

PsyBomb

2014-08-15, 06:16 PM

Thanks for putting the summaries up, Psyren. I know my next character will probably be a MoMF, once those make it onto the SRD

Beowulf DW

2014-08-15, 09:40 PM

I'm personally thrilled with the Slayer and Bloodrager, and content with the Warpriest. Those were the three I was most interested in.

I'm certainly interested in how the Arcanist would interact with Eldritch Knight, especially in the case of the Blade Adept. Any ideas? Would it gain spells from EK like a spontaneous caster, or would you be left high and dry like a prepared caster?

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 09:53 PM

Probably high and dry.

9mm

2014-08-15, 10:15 PM

So funny thing about pummeling style, the only reference to it being limited to unarmed strikes is in the fluff.

Giggity.

NightbringerGGZ

2014-08-15, 10:17 PM

So has anybody started looking at the spells yet? There are some interesting ones added, thematically at at least. I had moment where I had to laugh with my evil GM cackle after reading Curse of Burning Sleep! Details in the spoiler tag:

Saving Throw Will negates (see text); Spell Resistance yes
You place a curse upon the target that triggers 1 hour after
the next time it falls asleep. When the curse is triggered,
the creature bursts into flame, taking 1d6 points of fire
damage per 2 caster levels (maximum 8d6). Furthermore, it
catches on fire, taking 2d6 points of fire damage per round
at the end of its turn each round until the creature dies
(Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 444). If the target is still
asleep, the fire damage from this spell wakes it.

That spell could wind up killing players. I wonder if we could combo it with Explosive Runes somehow...

zimmerwald1915

2014-08-15, 10:21 PM

Probably high and dry.
Aye, an arcanist has a spellbook, not spells known. Eldritch knight only advances spells known.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 10:23 PM

So funny thing about pummeling style, the only reference to it being limited to unarmed strikes is in the fluff.

Giggity.... remember improved trip? Would have been nice. Just sayin'.

Aye, an arcanist has a spellbook, not spells known. Eldritch knight only advances spells known.

Mhm. I think that means they get more unique spells per day, though. Either way, the ruling is a huge pain.

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-15, 10:55 PM

With all the different types of gishes, who's the strongest in a fight? Could a straight Magus beat up a Bloodrager? What about a Blade Adept Arcanist / Eldritch Knight? Or a Skald? How do Sorcadin / Eldritch Knights, Dragon Disciples, and traditional Wizard / Fighter / Eldritch Knights compare to the new gishes?

Has the arcanist obsoleted the sorcerer? At any level, an Arcanist X can cast just as many different spells as a Sorcerer of the same level, but can change them every day.

As an aside, I just came up with a crazy build idea that takes Arcane Bloodrager 16, learns how to cast Dimension Door, then dips Fighter 2. Using their 17th-level feat and the two bonus from Fighter 2, the character can get Dimensional Dervish at level 18 while still having +18 BAB. That's pretty cool, I think.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 11:14 PM

I don't know how a Bloodrager is supposed to stand up to magus.

squiggit

2014-08-15, 11:15 PM

People on the Paizo forums seem to think Bloodrager is the most powerful class Paizo has ever released, but I have absolutely on idea why.

Snowbluff

2014-08-15, 11:23 PM

People on the Paizo forums seem to think Bloodrager is the most powerful class Paizo has ever released, but I have absolutely on idea why.

... Please tell me you are joking. Care to elaborate? :smallfrown:

Fenryr

2014-08-15, 11:24 PM

Love the idea of the Brawler and the floating feats. Same for the Archetype of Fighter with floating feats. Hooray!

Lots of new stuff in this book. Gonna take a while to read everything twice.

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-15, 11:33 PM

People on the Paizo forums seem to think Bloodrager is the most powerful class Paizo has ever released, but I have absolutely on idea why.

A Steelblood Metamagic Rager Bloodrager has full BAB and heavy armor training and can cast a Quickened or Maximized spell every* round. That's pretty scary, but that's not even close to a Magus with both metamagic reducers, who can do things like make a full attack, cast Maximized Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp, attack again, cast Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp, and attack again, all in the same round. The difference there is that that magus needs hard-to-find metamagic-reducing traits to pull off that kind of power, while the bloodrager comes fairly close with just a couple archetypes.

*Each Quickened spell costs 8 rounds of rage and each Maximized spell costs 6, and they have (4+ CON mod + 2*level) to spend, so at high levels they have enough to last a long while.

Personally, I'd call the most powerful class they've ever released the Arcanist, in terms of "how many problems can a member of this class answer", or a high-op magus in terms of just raw numbers.

Edit to add:

Love the idea of the Brawler and the floating feats. Same for the Archetype of Fighter with floating feats. Hooray!

Lots of new stuff in this book. Gonna take a while to read everything twice.

Oh, I hadn't noticed that. So did Paizo finally take a hint from Grod the Giant and base their fighter fix around floating feats? Because I'll never play a straight Fighter without this archetype ever again.

Vhaidara

2014-08-15, 11:37 PM

btw, Atilla, what do you think of the Primal Companion Hunter?

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-15, 11:42 PM

btw, Atilla, what do you think of the Primal Companion Hunter?

I love it :smallbiggrin: Overall, I was disappointed with the strength of the Hunter's Animal Foci, especially because they're a primary class feature. Not only are evolutions more fun and more adaptable, but they also turn a very weak class feature into a very strong one. Primal Companion is like that floating-feat Fighter archetype in that I consider it part of the base class and would have to have a good reason for building a character of that class without that archetype.

Edit to add: Oh, and Eldritch Scion for Magi. I just like spontaneous casting better.

Beowulf DW

2014-08-15, 11:45 PM

... Please tell me you are joking. Care to elaborate? :smallfrown:

It's the Paizo forums. All they ever seem to think about is numbers. Not many of them spend time thinking about how things can be solved without HP reduction/hitting things.

animewatcha

2014-08-15, 11:46 PM

How can bloodrager use rounds of rage to reduce metamagic? Also, it can only cast up to 4th. A Sorcercor gets time stop. How is bloodrager the most powerful class ever?

Vhaidara

2014-08-15, 11:46 PM

I love it :smallbiggrin: Overall, I was disappointed with the strength of the Hunter's Animal Foci, especially because they're a primary class feature. Not only are evolutions more fun and more adaptable, but they also turn a very weak class feature into a very strong one. Primal Companion is like that floating-feat Fighter archetype in that I consider it part of the base class and would have to have a good reason for building a character of that class without that archetype.

Edit to add: Oh, and Eldritch Scion for Magi. I just like spontaneous casting better.

Eh, I for one enjoy them all. I just don't even want to know what they were smoking when they made the Arcanist.
"Hey, let's take a wizard and give them the best part of the sorcerer!"
But aside from that, I've liked everything I've seen.

Oh, and also, make sure you check out the Evolved Companion feat. Which has no limit on times you can take it.

Zanos

2014-08-15, 11:47 PM

Eh, I'm still convinced that a Human FC Sorcerer is a better day to day character than an Arcanist, especially since PF made Knowstones more accessible(Pages of spell knowledge.)

Fenryr

2014-08-15, 11:47 PM

Oh, I hadn't noticed that. So did Paizo finally take a hint from Grod the Giant and base their fighter fix around floating feats? Because I'll never play a straight Fighter without this archetype ever again.

Not EVERY feat but the Fighter may expend a Move Action to gain a combat feat the doesn't posses. One at level 5, two at level 9, three at level 14, and any number of combats feats at level 20. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The Fighter must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. Usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his fighter level.

Vhaidara

2014-08-15, 11:50 PM

Eh, I'm still convinced that a Human FC Sorcerer is a better day to day character than an Arcanist, especially since PF made Knowstones more accessible(Pages of spell knowledge.)

Thing is, Arcanists can still use that, and I think Int is a much better casting stat than Cha, since it gives you skill points and Knowledges.

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-15, 11:50 PM

How can bloodrager use rounds of rage to reduce metamagic? Also, it can only cast up to 4th. A Sorcercor gets time stop. How is bloodrager the most powerful class ever?

From the Metamagic Rager archetype:

Meta-Rage (Su): At 5th level, a metamagic rager can sacrifice additional rounds of bloodrage to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a bloodrager spell. This costs a number of rounds of bloodrage equal to twice what the spell’s adjusted level would normally be with the metamagic feat applied (minimum 2 rounds). The metamagic rager does not have to be bloodraging to use this ability. The metamagic effect is applied without increasing the level of the spell slot expended, though the casting time is increased as normal. The metamagic rager can apply only one metamagic feat he knows in this manner with each casting.

It's the Paizo forums. All they ever seem to think about is numbers. Not many of them spend time thinking about how things can be solved without HP reduction/hitting things.

It does admittedly have some pretty big numbers, but numbers are rarely everything and other classes have bigger numbers anyway.

animewatcha

2014-08-15, 11:55 PM

Zanos

2014-08-16, 12:00 AM

Thing is, Arcanists can still use that, and I think Int is a much better casting stat than Cha, since it gives you skill points and Knowledges.
What's the arcanist's prepared spells per day table look like? I'll hold off on final judgement until I can actually read the entire book, but when I checked the playtest I think a human FC sorcerer's spells known were about double that of the arcanist's spells prepared. Of course the arcanist is still tier 1 and the sorcerer is still tier 2 due to how the tiers are defined, but I think a human sorcerer can bring a lot more to the table unless the DM is being very generous with divinations.

Not sure if you were talking about the FC bonus of the page of spell knowledge, or both, but information devulged earlier in this thread indicated that arcanists cannot use the human sorcerer FC bonus.

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-16, 12:02 AM

Here are some responses to the whole bunch of posts that were made while I was writing my last post. Man, this thread moves quickly.

Eh, I for one enjoy them all. I just don't even want to know what they were smoking when they made the Arcanist.
"Hey, let's take a wizard and give them the best part of the sorcerer!"
But aside from that, I've liked everything I've seen.

I don't dislike them on principle, I just wish there were more of them and that they had bigger less small numbers.

Oh, and also, make sure you check out the Evolved Companion feat. Which has no limit on times you can take it.

Yesssssss. :smallbiggrin:

Eh, I'm still convinced that a Human FC Sorcerer is a better day to day character than an Arcanist, especially since PF made Knowstones more accessible(Pages of spell knowledge.)

Eh, I think it depends on the optimization level. For a new player, it's definitely easier to think "okay, these are my spells" than to manage a spellbook, but an Arcanist can get a Page of Spell Knowledge just by buying a Scroll and then preparing that spell every day thereafter. Sure, the Arcanist may have fewer options on any given day, but for the amount of gold a Sorcerer spends on one Page of Spell knowledge, an Arcanist can buy thirty different scrolls (between 15 and 40, depending on the level) and choose between any of them.

Replaces weapon training and mastery.

Yeah, but those are just numbers, and the fighter has big enough numbers already. What that archetype grants is options, and in that area the fighter is sorely lacking.

What's the arcanist's prepared spells per day table look like? I'll hold off on final judgement until I can actually read the entire book, but when I checked the playtest I think a human FC sorcerer's spells known were about double that of the arcanist's spells prepared. Of course the arcanist is still tier 1 and the sorcerer is still tier 2 due to how the tiers are defined, but I think a human sorcerer can bring a lot more to the table unless the DM is being very generous with divinations.

Not sure if you were talking about the FC bonus of the page of spell knowledge, or both, but information devulged earlier in this thread indicated that arcanists cannot use the human sorcerer FC bonus.

An arcanist prepares as many spells per day as a Sorcerer of equal level knows :smallfrown:

Zanos

2014-08-16, 12:06 AM

An arcanist prepares as many spells per day as a Sorcerer of equal level knows :smallfrown:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KuuktJh6c8I/T7yUjp9e_aI/AAAAAAAABOY/sLHmTr9Mwdc/s1600/misfits.gif
Paizo is either high or wanted to unseat WotC for the prize of making the most OP class. Now i just need to find some poor unsuspecting DM to abuse.

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-16, 12:13 AM

So, a couple of people on the Paizo forums, who's opinions I respect, are sharing the thought that this book is very poorly edited. Has anyone else here noticed this?

VexingFool

2014-08-16, 12:18 AM

Shield Champion(Brawler) is the Archetype/Class to take if you want to build Captain Andoran.

Trying to figure out how to build a decent ranged investigator. I want to build one for an upcoming Iron Gods campaign so he can eventually shoot laser pistols.

If you take a level of Gunslinger would that change the Steel Hound archetypes Amateur Gunslinger into Extra Grit?

So, a couple of people on the Paizo forums, who's opinions I respect, are sharing the thought that this book is very poorly edited. Has anyone else here noticed this?

There are enough errors that I've noticed so far that I am thinking of cancelling my Amazon order and sticking with the PDF. If they come out with a revised/second printing then I will pick up the hard copy.

Beowulf DW

2014-08-16, 12:18 AM

So, a couple of people on the Paizo forums, who's opinions I respect, are sharing the thought that this book is very poorly edited. Has anyone else here noticed this?

A few errors here and there, but nothing huge so far. I haven't read through the whole thing, yet, so it's certainly possible. Still, in my editing classes, I was taught to view a book with even one error as a defective product, and a company that is focused primarily on a written medium really should have higher standards.

squiggit

2014-08-16, 12:35 AM

So, a couple of people on the Paizo forums, who's opinions I respect, are sharing the thought that this book is very poorly edited. Has anyone else here noticed this?

There's a thread for it http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdla?Mastermind-Skillgods-Dares-dont-work-and that we're working on

In general nothing super gamebreaking, just silly stuff like abilities that no longer exist/have changed being referenced. There's a ring that costs more than three times its purchasing price to make. A couple FCBs are a bit vague. Bounty hunter's get their sneak attack modifying class feature before they get sneak attack.

The biggest "Power" thing is probably Pummeling Style not requiring you to use unarmed strikes, which does fun stuff like let you trip with a revolver and can get a bit silly with crit modifiers (and it's martial, so it's probably gonna be the first thing FAQ'd away).

The Random NPC

2014-08-16, 12:57 AM

Ah, you're right; in my giddy haste I failed to note the 1 hour limitation. So perhaps blow the 21k in gold on a Wand of Restoration or Lesser Restoration, which would make it more viable. Still could be good for restoring up to 5 to 6 uses of Alchemical Allocation if you have the Cognatogen on hand before you quaff the A.A. (and then a half dozen free potions).

For 18k gold you could pick up a ring of inner fortitude and prevent the damage.

Sayt

2014-08-16, 01:20 AM

So, a couple of people on the Paizo forums, who's opinions I respect, are sharing the thought that this book is very poorly edited. Has anyone else here noticed this?

I've noticed enough screw-ups to agree with this, and in general there's a feeling that the whole thing was a bit rushed in the end. Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Slayer's Studied target not advancing skill bonuses, Dares not working...

That said, I'm in love with Pummeling style. I built a Monk/SOulknife(Gifted Blade/Deadly Fist) a few weeks ago that gets a 17-20/x3 crit. Pummeling style means if any of them crit, they all crit, which with Physical acceleration and Medusa's Wrath is pretty fun and mildly delicious.

And lets not ignore the fact that Pummeling charge is basically pounce?

I guess it's more susceptible to miss chances than making the whole spree of attacks, but the increased crit chance would seem to counterbalance that.

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-16, 01:30 AM

In related, the Paizo PRD (http://paizo.com/prd/) got a serious facelift.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-08-16, 01:47 AM

I'm already writing up an NPC swashbuckler for my E6 campaign. An Atomie Swashbuckler....

Psyren

2014-08-16, 01:55 AM

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KuuktJh6c8I/T7yUjp9e_aI/AAAAAAAABOY/sLHmTr9Mwdc/s1600/misfits.gif
Paizo is either high or wanted to unseat WotC for the prize of making the most OP class. Now i just need to find some poor unsuspecting DM to abuse.

A "prepared spell" for the arcanist is not the same as it is for the wizard. They still have lower spells/day than both of the core arcanists, particularly since they are on the sorcerer's delayed progression. They have a lot of cool tricks, but for sheer power at most levels a wizard is still going to be king of the arcane roost.

Edit to add: Oh, and Eldritch Scion for Magi. I just like spontaneous casting better.

Not only that, but so many races are no longer stuck with bard if they want to gish out of the box. Dhampir, Drow, Ifrit, Gnome, Fetchling... this option is great.

And lets not ignore the fact that Pummeling charge is basically pounce?

I'm going to yell "Falcon Punch!" every time I use it :smallbiggrin: Followed by "Show ya moves!" when I drop an enemy.

squiggit

2014-08-16, 02:17 AM

They have a lot of cool tricks, but for sheer power at most levels a wizard is still going to be king of the arcane roost.

Especially given that a Wizard can have access to those tricks if he wants

VexingFool

2014-08-16, 03:19 AM

Does the Gunslinger(Bolt Ace) make crossbows viable weapons now? Grit with crossbows, Dex to Damage at level-5 plus increased crit multiplier, no pesky misfire, no touch AC unless you use grit but then it uses crossbow range increment so 80-120ft touch attacks.

Any opinions on the Cleric(Ecclesitheurge)?
Lose-
Armor, shield and deity weapon proficiencies
3rd level channeling increase

Gain-
Primary domain - Can use non-domain spell slots to mem domain spells
Secondary domain - Keep secondary domain power but can daily choose to use different domain spells from domains available to deity.
Bonded Holy symbol - As wizard bonded object.

Crimson Wolf

2014-08-16, 04:24 AM

And I'm just sitting here enjoying more alchemical items and alchemy used more :D

Bhaakon

2014-08-16, 04:49 AM

Does the Gunslinger(Bolt Ace) make crossbows viable weapons now? Grit with crossbows, Dex to Damage at level-5 plus increased crit multiplier, no pesky misfire, no touch AC unless you use grit but then it uses crossbow range increment so 80-120ft touch attacks.

I think they were viable before, just not optimal. Bows were strictly better, but you could make a functional ranged character who specialized in the crossbow by using the ranger combat style to bypass the Crossbow Mastert prereqs. Since it forces you to buy Crossbow Mastery the hard way, I'm not sure that this archetype is a superior option for crossbow enthusiasts, but I'd be tempted to dip for Dex to damage.

Sayt

2014-08-16, 05:05 AM

Does the Gunslinger(Bolt Ace) make crossbows viable weapons now? Grit with crossbows, Dex to Damage at level-5 plus increased crit multiplier, no pesky misfire, no touch AC unless you use grit but then it uses crossbow range increment so 80-120ft touch attacks.

I think the Bolt Ace is the first legitimate, 1st party only crossbowman that works, and that's because you have a source of flat damage beyond enhancement bonuses. Dreamscarred Press' Marksman can pull it, I put together a 3.PF build which I think can pull it off, but this is the first time pure Pathfinder can do it.

Is it as good as the flat gunslinger? I don't think it has the sheer DPR, but it has better range, and is more likely to receive acceptance at people of who have a narrower definition of fantasy.

Crimson Wolf

2014-08-16, 05:18 AM

It could be better for people who don't want guns in their game but would like the benefits of the gunslinger class.

VexingFool

2014-08-16, 05:30 AM

Unfortunately it does nothing to alleviate the feat tax situation if you want to have full attacks with crossbows.

The deed Inexplicable Reload inexplicably does nothing to fix this.

You still need Rapid Reload to full attack with Light x-bow and Crossbow Mastery to fire with Heavy. They should have stuck to Rapid Reload's template where a move becomes a free action. And then the free action becomes no action.

Inexplicable Reload (Ex): At 11th level, loading a crossbow
becomes unthinking and automatic for a bolt ace. As long as
she has at least 1 grit point, she always starts each round of
combat (even a surprise round) with her crossbow loaded. Also
the amount of time needed to reload a crossbow decreases by
one step: a standard action becomes a move action, a move
action becomes a swift action, a swift action becomes a free
action, and a free action becomes not an action. This deed
replaces lightning reload.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-08-16, 05:31 AM

I think they were viable before, just not optimal. Bows were strictly better, but you could make a functional ranged character who specialized in the crossbow by using the ranger combat style to bypass the Crossbow Mastert prereqs. Since it forces you to buy Crossbow Mastery the hard way, I'm not sure that this archetype is a superior option for crossbow enthusiasts, but I'd be tempted to dip for Dex to damage.

I think a lot depends on exactly how the "Sharp Shoot" deed works, after taking signature deed at 11th level (reducing its cost to 0) can you use it on every shot or just one shot a round. If the former... then yeah its certainly worth it.

You still need Rapid Reload to full attack with Light x-bow and Crossbow Mastery to fire with Heavy. They should have stuck to Rapid Reload's template where a move becomes a free action. And then the free action becomes no action.
Perhaps the eventual errata will correct the deed issue, as it seems like a mistake or an oversight. That being said the damage difference between light and heavy crossbow isn't that much, Dexterity to damage is certainly more significant well worth just using a light crossbow instead.

Larkas

2014-08-16, 07:44 AM

I don't have the book, and hence have to ask: does Animal Soul interact at all with Evolved Companion?

Sayt

2014-08-16, 07:53 AM

Animal soul makes you be able to voluntarily count as an animal for spell targeting. Evolved Companion specifically gives your animal companion a 1 point evolution

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-16, 09:53 AM

Hybrid classes are starting to show up on the d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes)

Jacob.Tyr

2014-08-16, 10:25 AM

Hybrid classes are starting to show up on the d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes)
Reading through the brawler for the first time... are they missing information or is this class really bad?

Flexible feats seemed great at first, but they also get a ton of bonus feats anyway... I guess at least they are acknowledging how many feats you need to be a martial character.

Maneuver bonus seems horribly underwhelming, and is probably in entirety a waste of a class feature.

Once per day you can try and knock someone out with a punch, if you land an attack and deal damage.

And at level 16 you can push people through doors as a standard, getting +1d6 damage. With a CMB check, so good luck.

PsyBomb

2014-08-16, 10:41 AM

I... think I might be in love with the Brawler. It's a Monk that gets a bunch of combat-focused feats and bonuses instead of the useless class features, and you can actually wear light armor without losing everything. Only things he gives up are fast movement the high Will progression. If they have a good Monk archetype for scout-types, I may never go back for my combat needs.

... also helps that I'm about to stat out Sabin to send against my players...

EDIT:

To respond to the above, Knockout is decent early (though the limited uses and targeting Fort hurts) and Knockback is admittedly lackluster, but the massive feat spikes let you customize for the opponent you're against. It specifically calls out that, from level 6 on, you can grab chains of them.

Maneuver Bonus is not the best out there, but it is untyped and certain builds will LOVE having boosted Grapple or Bull Rush.

Craft (Cheese)

2014-08-16, 10:51 AM

Reading through the brawler for the first time... are they missing information or is this class really bad?

No, it was ridiculously bad in the playtest too: The main problem is it's a class built around CMB checks and that entire subsystem breaks in the monsters' favor after a few levels. Doesn't seem like they've changed anything significant.

deuxhero

2014-08-16, 10:58 AM

Wait, bloodragers don't get Read Magic or Dispel Magic?

9mm

2014-08-16, 12:23 PM

so the real answer to pummeling vs jabbing is... BOTH!

deuxhero

2014-08-16, 01:10 PM

Oh, I just had an idea for Animal Soul! The Feeblemind+awaken loop is known, but it can be expanded upon:

There is a clause for awakened animals not being able to be animal companions, familiars or mounts. There is no such clause for an Eidolon. It didn't get class levels, contribute to your CR or take XP anyways, so an infinite number of HD bolted on won't hurt.

But it doesn't get an AC/mount and can't qualify you say?! Animal Ally gives you an animal companion as if you were a Druid (class feature).

Lord Vukodlak

2014-08-16, 01:41 PM

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-16, 01:46 PM

Did no one notice the Wizard archetype that lets you spontaneously cast any spell off the entire Cleric, Druid and Bard lists level/5 times a day? That's just silly.

Snowbluff

2014-08-16, 01:46 PM

I did now. I'm bleeding from me ears.

There is a clause for awakened animals not being able to be animal companions, familiars or mounts. There is no such clause for an Eidolon. It didn't get class levels, contribute to your CR or take XP anyways, so an infinite number of HD bolted on won't hurt.

Hm... How about Synthesists? When they unbind their eidolon, make it an animal, and then make it bigger so they have more BAB when they refuse.

squiggit

2014-08-16, 01:46 PM

... Please tell me you are joking. Care to elaborate? :smallfrown:

The argument seems to be that barbarians are one of the best classes in the game and Bloodrager is barbarian +1. People there seem to legitimately think barbarians are entirely broken (along with synthesists and gunslingers).

Also want Pummeling Style to function like dead shot.

malonkey1

2014-08-16, 01:59 PM

Not EVERY feat but the Fighter may expend a Move Action to gain a combat feat the doesn't posses. One at level 5, two at level 9, three at level 14, and any number of combats feats at level 20. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The Fighter must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. Usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his fighter level.

Wait, can they meet prerequisites for feats gained with ability with other feats from this ability (Combat Expertise and Improved Trip in one go)? Or do they always have to have the real feat?

Jacob.Tyr

2014-08-16, 02:02 PM

Wait, can they meet prerequisites for feats gained with ability with other feats from this ability (Combat Expertise and Improved Trip in one go)? Or do they always have to have the real feat?

They do get to meet the prereqs by using this ability, yes.

Orsyn

2014-08-16, 02:04 PM

I think a lot depends on exactly how the "Sharp Shoot" deed works, after taking signature deed at 11th level (reducing its cost to 0) can you use it on every shot or just one shot a round. If the former... then yeah its certainly worth it.

I suspect it will work for every attack, as I can't find anything to the contrary. As far as I can tell, as a normal gunslinger using deadeye, I can resolve a full attack in my second increment against touch AC, simply by paying a point for each attack therein (it doesn't specify any type of action to use deadeye), and can do so for free if I signature deed it. I see no reason Bolt Ace wouldn't work the same way.

Perhaps the eventual errata will correct the deed issue, as it seems like a mistake or an oversight. That being said the damage difference between light and heavy crossbow isn't that much, Dexterity to damage is certainly more significant well worth just using a light crossbow instead.

I think the reason behind the change -might- be because of the double crossbow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/crossbow-double), though admittedly I don't see anything particularly game breaking about being able to full-attack with it, any more than full-attacking with a double-barreled musket is game breaking.

Edit: That said, I don't even think the Bolt Ace has the feats to effectively -use- the double crossbow, because the archetype doesn't replace any of the other gun-related stuff. Like Gunsmith. Or, you know, firearms proficiency.

Larkas

2014-08-16, 02:18 PM

I decided to bite the bullet and get the book. So far, I think it's totally worth it for the price!

Regardless, I didn't see anyone commenting on the hunter being a spontaneous caster. This actually alleviates a bit my concerns that the ranger might be completely overshadowed, what with the hunter spell list encompassing the entirety of the ranger's.

lord_khaine

2014-08-16, 02:34 PM

... also helps that I'm about to stat out Sabin to send against my players...

Nice one, i tried making him as a PC myself in 3.5, and ended up with a unhole mixture of Ardent, Swordsage and Monk :P

It did turn out to get brutally efficient though, at the later levels.

Snowbluff

2014-08-16, 02:38 PM

Regardless, I didn't see anyone commenting on the hunter being a spontaneous caster. This actually alleviates a bit my concerns that the ranger might be completely overshadowed, what with the hunter spell list encompassing the entirety of the ranger's.

Isn't this the opposite of what you mean? Between FCB, Paragon Surge, ad other options it shouldn't be an issue. In fact, being a 6/9 spontaneous caster is much better. Rangers don't have that many spells that stand out in the first place, and the ones that do are just gravy for the superior and easier to manage caster. Other than spells known, the biggest issue with spontaneous casters is metamagic use. Rangers don't benefit from being prepared casters from metamagic because their spell slots are generally too low to use MM. Which is awful because the class is STILL redundant.

Larkas

2014-08-16, 02:48 PM

Isn't this the opposite of what you mean? Between FCB, Paragon Surge, ad other options it shouldn't be an issue. In fact, being a 6/9 spontaneous caster is much better. Rangers don't have that many spells that stand out in the first place, and the ones that do are just gravy for the superior and easier to manage caster. Other than spells known, the biggest issue with spontaneous casters is metamagic use. Rangers don't benefit from being prepared casters from metamagic because their spell slots are generally too low to use MM. Which is awful because the class is STILL redundant.

Notice that I said "completely". I do think that the hunter does overshadow the ranger for the most part, but at the very least the latter does know his entire spell list (in addition to having full BAB). I mean, it's not a major, or arguably even noticeable advantage, but it is something! :smallsmile:

Regardless, another fruit of poor proof reading:

Additionally, each day when the hunter prepares spells, she chooses one animal focus to be active on herself for the entire day.

The hunter doesn't prepare spells. Does this mean he can't use his capstone? :smalltongue:

squiggit

2014-08-16, 03:02 PM

ooh. gonna add that to the typo thread.

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-16, 03:18 PM

I'm calculating a quick numerical comparison of five major gish builds, in order from most to least castery: Dex-based Blade Adept Arcanist, Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight, Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch Knight, Strength-based Magus with no archetypes, and Steelblood Metamagic Rager Bloodrager. I'm going to be doing power comparisons at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels of attack bonus, damage on hit, damage per round to the average monster of equivalent CR, HP, saves, CL and DC for highest-level spells, and effective damage per round to the average monster of equivalent CR using the highest-level damaging spell(s) available to the caster.

Does anyone have any predictions on the outcome?

squiggit

2014-08-16, 03:23 PM

Bloodrager should be Primalist.

Since it's like a Qinggong in that it's a free archetype that you can mix and matchs tuff with

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-16, 03:31 PM

deuxhero

2014-08-16, 05:12 PM

I did now. I'm bleeding from me ears.

Hm... How about Synthesists? When they unbind their eidolon, make it an animal, and then make it bigger so they have more BAB when they refuse.

Infinite HD and infinite int=infinite skills and infinite feats. Synthesist loses both those

(that loop is pure TO cheese though)

Ilorin Lorati

2014-08-16, 06:34 PM

Bloodrager should be Primalist.

Since it's like a Qinggong in that it's a free archetype that you can mix and matchs tuff with

Presuming the Bloodrager doesn't want to take any other archetypes it is better by default, but it's not actually "free" like Qinggong, since it'll prevent them from taking any other archetypes that alter or replace the bloodline class feature. Its cost is just an archetypical opportunity cost. It doesn't seem there's anything that'll actually cause that issue for the moment, but eventually it's pretty likely.

Raw damage? Bloodrager or Magus. Defense? Paladin/Sorcerer/EK.

They may also prefer to find a race with a level 2 divine SLA, take one level in Warpriest, and then take Divine Protection as a feat instead of using up 2 levels for the Charisma bonus to defenses.

T.G. Oskar

2014-08-16, 06:49 PM

I think there's a bit more of a problem with the Brawler other than its somewhat poor capstones (it does have the ability to improve the damage with Close combat weapons, giving a lot of flexibility in terms of choices), but the fact that it's dip-tastic.

A friend of mine is a fan of Fighters, but not a fan of the system. He was invited to play, and worked up a Fighter with the Two-Handed Fighter archetype, using Dreamscarred Press rules for the Half-Giant race (a favorite of his from 3.5) and some Psionic feats (namely Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon and whatnot). After looking at the first two levels of Brawler, I decided to see how the build would change with it, including advantages and disadvantages but in particular his damage output per hit. As it stands, his damage output is of 46 points of damage per hit, without counting weapon damage.

Without adding Strength boosters, starting with a Strength of 16 (modified to 18 because of Half-Giant) and adding 4 points of Strength via level increases, he ends up with a Strength of 22, for a +6 modifier. Overhand Chop and Backslide double this to +12 except on the first attack of a full attack, so he has a +9 on his first attack and a +12 on the rest. Greater Psionic Weapon adds a +2 bonus to damage rolls while psionically focused, and Weapon Training adds another +4. He always uses Power Attack, and due to Greater Power Attack he adds 4 points of damage for every point of BAB sacrificed, so he adds a +24 to damage right there. Finally, he has Greater Weapon Specialization, adding yet another +4 to the damage.

12 (Strength x 2) +2 (Greater Psionic Weapon) + 24 (Greater Power Attack damage bonus) + 4 (Weapon Training) +4 (Weapon Specialization) = 46, before factoring weapon damage, enhancement bonuses to attack rolls or Strength modifiers.

After running down the schematic, the build ended up with 2 additional skill points, Sense Motive as a class skill (which he chose despite not having it as a class skill), +3 to Fortitude and Reflex, a free floating feat, two "free" feats (Improved Unarmed Strike because of the Unarmed Strike class feature; Two Weapon Fighting because of the Brawler's Flurry class feature), increased US damage (1d6), no loss in Fighter level for purposes of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, and effectively no loss of damage at all. He remains at 1[W] + 43/46 per hit.

He's considering whether losing Weapon Mastery is worth this (he doesn't particularly care that much about Devastating Blow, though he spent some feat choices on Vital Strike for it), and my gut feeling is that it does. He mentions that the floating feat doesn't really justify the carefully selected feats for his build (mostly damage, with Trip and Bull Rush for a sweet maneuver and a massive focus on Intimidate to demoralize while attacking), but while the damage from Weapon Mastery is pretty sweet, considering he STILL feels the Fighter is feat-starved, that can grant him some flexibility (and with 4 uses per day and a duration of 1 minute, it is definitely worthwhile IMO).

This is only an example, but some other builds can benefit just as well. Because of the free feat (and free floating feat), the free boost to Unarmed Strike damage, the good Hit Dice and the good Fortitude/Reflex saving bonus (AND the good skill points per level), it is a really good 2-level dip. To be precise, it is a superior dip than actually dipping Fighter, because it offers loads more things. It's almost as superior as a 2-level Monk dip, though the Monk offers evasion which is actually very good as well.

malonkey1

2014-08-16, 07:15 PM

They do get to meet the prereqs by using this ability, yes.

Noice. 100% Noice.

Zan Thrax

2014-08-16, 07:19 PM

Bhaakon

2014-08-16, 07:43 PM

Am I the only one who sees Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge making a two level Master of Many Styles dip even more attractive than the Crane Style / Crane Wing dip ever did? While the flavour of the text implies that it's intended to be used for unarmed strikes, it's never actually specified. So those two feats with a two level monk dip = low level pounce along with a better version of vital strike.

From the text of the ability:

As a full-round action, you can pool all your
attack potential in one devastating punch.

pg 154

That's the benefits section, not the flavor text. It would be nice if it said "unarmed strike", but it would strain credulity past the breaking point to define an attack with a sword, axe, spear, etc. as a punch. As a DM, I'd rule that it only works with unarmed strikes and perhaps brass knuckles and similar punch-enhancing weapons.

grarrrg

2014-08-16, 07:43 PM

Because of the free feat (and free floating feat), the free boost to Unarmed Strike damage, the good Hit Dice and the good Fortitude/Reflex saving bonus (AND the good skill points per level), it is a really good 2-level dip. To be precise, it is a superior dip than actually dipping Fighter, because it offers loads more things. It's almost as superior as a 2-level Monk dip, though the Monk offers evasion which is actually very good as well.

Don't forget Brawler's Cunning at 1st. Your INT counts as 13 for Combat Feat pre-reqs.

Also, there's an odd "restriction" on the Brawler's Bonus Feats:
"These bonus feats must be ones that affect or improve her defenses or melee attacks."
Considering they still must be _Combat_ feats, I don't see the actual point of this. I guess it excludes things like Ranged-only feats, but there are quite a few feats in the gray area. Like Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat), it doesn't affect the attack at all, but making the opponent Shaken (-2 on Attacks, amongst other things) would effectively improve your defenses.

malonkey1

2014-08-16, 07:44 PM

That's the benefits section, not the flavor text. It would be nice if it said "unarmed strike", but it would strain credulity past the breaking point to fit an attack with a sword, axe, spear, etc. as a punch. As a DM, I'd rule that it only works with unarmed strikes and perhaps brass knuckles and similar punch-enhancing weapons.

Uhm...Punching Greatswords?

Jacob.Tyr

2014-08-16, 07:52 PM

I like what I'm seeing from Hunter. Trying to figure out how to best take advantage of an ally that always has the same teamwork feats as you. Coordinated charge so you can both charge twice each round?

Skirmisher tricks instead of normal pet tricks seems awesome as well. Kind of want to get a dog companion and teach it Quick Healing. Strap a keg of healing potion around his neck and call him Bernie. But, y'know, entangle and knockdown attempt are cool, too.

What is the best way to build this into an uber-charger duo?

Snowbluff

2014-08-16, 09:06 PM

Raw damage? Bloodrager or Magus. Defense? Paladin/Sorcerer/EK.
I'll go out on a limb and say magus.

Also, where is the love for Vivisectionist and Synthesists? Why isn't the wizard an Aasimar? :smalltongue:

Infinite HD and infinite int=infinite skills and infinite feats. Synthesist loses both those

(that loop is pure TO cheese though)

I'm just saying I like the synthesist, and having lots of BAB on a PC would be cool.

deuxhero

2014-08-16, 09:18 PM

Not even possible anyways. YOu need feats to actually TAKE animal soul.

squiggit

2014-08-16, 09:38 PM

Here's a fun one. The Divine Huntsman hunter archetype has a rule in its domain that the Animal Doman doesn't give you a second animal compain and that instead you get ability score increases for your primary companion. The Sacred Huntsman Inquisitor archetype however, does not. Which is kind of cool.

That's the benefits section, not the flavor text.
Possibly, but there's also no real rules in that line, at all. And the rest of the text makes no mention of an unarmed strike requirement.. so eh. Wait for the fun police to slap the feat into the dirt. It'll probably be one of the first things errata'd since it benefits martials.

Larkas

2014-08-16, 09:43 PM

Animal soul makes you be able to voluntarily count as an animal for spell targeting. Evolved Companion specifically gives your animal companion a 1 point evolution

I'm sorry, but having bought the book now, I beg to differ, however slightly. Animal Soul says that "You can allow spells and effects that affect animals, animal companions, and special mounts to affect you"; Evolved Companion, on the other hand, says that "Your animal companion gains this evolution", and while Animal Soul lets you count as an animal companion, I don't see how you can count as your animal companion.

... Unless, by being, for all intents and purposes, an animal, you select yourself as your animal companion. :eek:

Bhaakon

2014-08-16, 09:46 PM

Possibly, but there's also no real rules in that line, at all.

Restricting the use of the feat to a punch seems like a rule to me.

squiggit

2014-08-16, 09:54 PM

Restricting the use of the feat to a punch seems like a rule to me.

But it doesn't place any restrictions. It just says you combine all your attacks into a devastating punch. None of that discusses the mechanics of the ability (hence not regarding it as rules text... because there's no rules there). Even if it did there's still no restriction on what weapons you can attack with, only that you deliver it through a punch.

Bhaakon

2014-08-16, 10:12 PM

But it doesn't place any restrictions.

Limiting the attack to a punch is most certainly a restriction.

Vhaidara

2014-08-16, 10:14 PM

Limiting the attack to a punch is most certainly a restriction.

No, it just means that the sum of your attacks, which can be made with any weapon, in a punch.

So you swing your sword around, then punch him in the gut. For net weapon damage.

3WhiteFox3

2014-08-16, 10:19 PM

Show me where punch is defined as rules text. Unarmed strikes do not necessarily have to be punches afterall. Even borrowing the English definition, all a punch is a strike with your fist, find some way to add that to your attack description. The feat never says you have to punch hard after all, simply punch.

Besides, its not broken just a melee nice thing let them have it.

Snowbluff

2014-08-16, 10:21 PM

I think it will be fixed for intent rather than letting it slide and loosening the prereqs like a sane dev.

squiggit

2014-08-16, 10:22 PM

Keledrath's point is the one I was trying to make in my last post on the subject. It says you combine your attacks into a single punch, but it doesn't say you can only use unarmed attacks. So you punch someone for your full set of iteratives with your greatsword. Could use it to argue that you can't make use it with bows I suppose.

Here's a fun one. The Divine Huntsman hunter archetype has a rule in its domain that the Animal Doman doesn't give you a second animal compain and that instead you get ability score increases for your primary companion. The Sacred Huntsman Inquisitor archetype however, does not. Which is kind of cool.
Replying to myself.. but said Sacred Huntsman also lacks the Packmaster's restriction on how its class features effect multiple animal companions.

Larkas

2014-08-16, 10:38 PM

Two new typos I've noticed:

Improved Spell Sharing (Teamwork)
Your link with your companion creature allows you to share your magic with it.
Prerequisite: Ability to acquire an animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount.
Benefit: When you are adjacent to or sharing a square with your companion creature and that companion creature has this feat, you can cast a spell on yourself and divide the duration evenly between yourself and the companion creature.

How can a companion creature have this feat if the prerequisite is having the ability to acquire a companion creature? :smallconfused:

Improved Studied Combatant
Deep understanding of your foes’ tics grants you the upper hand in combat.

"Tics" must be "tactics", right?

Giddonihah

2014-08-16, 10:39 PM

Two new typos I've noticed:
How can a companion creature have this feat if the prerequisite is having the ability to acquire a companion creature? :smallconfused:

Its intended for the Hunter who can share teamwork feats with his Animal Companion. Pretty much unusable for anyone else.

Vhaidara

2014-08-16, 10:41 PM

"Tics" must be "tactics", right?

No, I think it means like a nervous tic. Like a tell in poker.

Larkas

2014-08-16, 10:51 PM

Its intended for the Hunter who can share teamwork feats with his Animal Companion. Pretty much unusable for anyone else.

Then why the provision for eidolons, familiars and special mounts? :smallconfused:

Giddonihah

2014-08-16, 10:54 PM

Then why the provision for eidolons, familiars and special mounts? :smallconfused:

Cause the book is full of poor editing. Its usable by Hunters, and they made sure of that, but they seemed to have forgotten no one else can take it.

Vhaidara

2014-08-16, 10:55 PM

Then why the provision for eidolons, familiars and special mounts? :smallconfused:

Potential future archetypes allowing for it? Isn't there a feat based way of getting an Animal Companion that an Eidolon could take?

Lord Vukodlak

2014-08-16, 11:04 PM

Cause the book is full of poor editing. Its usable by Hunters, and they made sure of that, but they seemed to have forgotten no one else can take it.

Or its just missing a line
"Prerequisite: Ability to acquire an animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount. Or you are an animal companion, eidolon, familiar or special mount."

grarrrg

2014-08-16, 11:22 PM

Potential future archetypes allowing for it? Isn't there a feat based way of getting an Animal Companion that an Eidolon could take?

Feat based Animal Companion? Yes.
...That an Eidolon could take? Not quite yes.

Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally) can be taken to get a Companion at Char level-3
One of the prerequisites is "Character level 4". Eidolons/Animal Companions/etc... do not have a Character Level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Character-Level), so they cannot take the feat.
Same reason they cannot take Leadership or Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage).

Vhaidara

2014-08-16, 11:25 PM

Feat based Animal Companion? Yes.
...That an Eidolon could take? Not quite yes.

Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally) can be taken to get a Companion at Char level-3
One of the prerequisites is "Character level 4". Eidolons/Animal Companions/etc... do not have a Character Level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Character-Level), so they cannot take the feat.
Same reason they cannot take Leadership or Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage).

Ah. I'd just heard people talk about the Summoner who grabs a batch of feats and becomes a party (Animal Companion for the beatstick, skilldolon, familiar UMDs into healer, Summoner has BFC and UMDs in healing). Never actually looked into it.

QuidEst

2014-08-16, 11:42 PM

Ugh, this book has so much stuff I love, even if all the other full arcane casters point and laugh at Sorcerer.
Evolved Companion and Spirit's Gift are awesome. Archetype for an animal companion with Eidolon evolutions is likewise fantastic. Bloodrager, Brawler, and the Pummeling Style Monk fix are great. Shaman is a Wis-based full caster I can be interested in, and its Animist archetype is one of the coolest archetype options I've seen. The Long Arms spell is something I've wanted for a while, and Aberrant Bloodrager is even cooler for it. Reach EVERYTHING. While Animist may be the coolest archetype I've seen, Mutation Warrior is one of my favorites. Fighter with a mutagen and access to the wings discovery. I would play that. That is a Fighter that I would play. Holy cats, death curses! I don't care how impractical it is… if I can guarantee that should my Primalist Bloodrager fall in combat, the killer will be saving versus "age one year every day and take a Con damage for good measure", I will take that, get Ability Focus on it, and grab my headband in Charisma. Another great one is "you aren't affected by healing spells and don't recover hit points from rest". Leave them knowing that every little nick and cut they get is going to stay with them forever until their body just gives up from a hundred little injuries. If there's any way to make my dying action an intimidate check to give them -2 on that save, it's worth taking over that casting of False Life.

Psyren

2014-08-17, 12:42 AM

Arcanist has more potential power than Sorcerer by virtue of being T1 but I wouldn't at all say it "points and laughs," any more than the wizard or witch do. I actually think they did a good job with Arcanist - it's a prepared caster that is much more fun for newer players to play than a Wizard would be, but it has enough disadvantages that there is room for all three of them to exist in the game (though perhaps not in the same party.)

QuidEst

2014-08-17, 12:49 AM

Zan Thrax

2014-08-17, 01:51 AM

From the text of the ability:

That's the benefits section, not the flavor text. It would be nice if it said "unarmed strike", but it would strain credulity past the breaking point to define an attack with a sword, axe, spear, etc. as a punch. As a DM, I'd rule that it only works with unarmed strikes and perhaps brass knuckles and similar punch-enhancing weapons.

Even restricted to just "punching" - which, as has already been pointed out, isn't defined anywhere (and certainly doesn't equate to unarmed strikes which are specifically called out as not having to involve one's hands at all), that feat is still better than either Clustered Shots or Vital Strike. The second feat in the chain is basically Pounce as a feat. Both can be had by anyone willing to sacrifice two levels to a MoMS dip. I'd seriously consider it for any unarmed fighting build except Brawler. It might even be enough to make a Scout Rogue (or Scout Ninja) viable in a fight.

I'm pro-martial-classes-getting-nice-things, and I think this is broken. But they'll "fix" it the same way they fixed MoMS dippers getting Crane Wing early - by destroying the feat instead of doing something about the MoMS dip that's letting people get mid-level abilities at level two or three.

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-17, 08:09 AM

For the power comparison, I'm trying to mimic thye optimization level I assume Paizo's internal testing optimization level to be. That turns out to be fairly low-op by GiantITP standards: no metamagic reducers, no WBL cheese, and no early entry tricks. I'm not spending full WBL, just handing out equal-level magic items to each build to compare the numbers. For example, the 4th level testing conditions are "Ability scores of 18, 16, 14, and 10 assigned in the most optimal way for the build among strength, dexterity, intelligence, and constitution; a +1 weapon; and a +1 armor enhancement or a Ring of Protection +1".

Ah. I'd just heard people talk about the Summoner who grabs a batch of feats and becomes a party (Animal Companion for the beatstick, skilldolon, familiar UMDs into healer, Summoner has BFC and UMDs in healing). Never actually looked into it.

I played against a build like that in a duel once. I don't remember exactly how the opponent did it, but he had a Quasit familiar that had a bunch of wands, a weak animal companion for flanking, and a deadly humanoid eidolon that spent all its points on Evolutions (Arms) and Strength boosts to make something silly like eight attacks a round. I didn't stand a chance- I just got action economy'd into the ground.

I exaggerate, but the archetype that gets a full bloodline power set plus the arcana for less than half its exploits seemed pretty point-and-laughy to me.

Yeeeah. Is there anything a Sorcerer can do that an Arcanist of equivalent level can't do?

Septimus

2014-08-17, 08:32 AM

Arcanists don't have bloodline arcana. Aside that...

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-17, 08:36 AM

Arcanists don't have bloodline arcana. Aside that...

Sadly, they do.

Bloodline: A blood arcanist selects one bloodline from those available through the sorcerer bloodline class feature. The blood arcanist gains the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers of that bloodline, treating her arcanist level as her sorcerer level. The blood arcanist does not gain the class skill, bonus feats, or bonus spells from her bloodline...This ability replaces the arcanist exploits gained at 1st, 3rd, 9th, and 15th levels, as well as magical supremacy. A blood arcanist cannot select the bloodline development arcanist exploit.

So, I guess, if a sorcerer would be able to cast a spell off another list as a bloodline spell, the arcanist can't do it. Is that really the only thing?

ibtfu

2014-08-17, 08:52 AM

Yeeeah. Is there anything a Sorcerer can do that an Arcanist of equivalent level can't do?

The Blood Arcanist archetype steps all over the Sorcerer.

Psyren

2014-08-17, 08:53 AM

I exaggerate, but the archetype that gets a full bloodline power set plus the arcana for less than half its exploits seemed pretty point-and-laughy to me.

The Blood Arcanist archetype steps all over the Sorcerer.

I still disagree - if archetypes enter the equation, the Arcanist can indeed get a full bloodline + an arcana, but the sorcerer has access to Wildblooded (Sage/Empyreal, woo) and Cross-blooded. Arcanist is slightly stronger but that was never the point - the point is rather "would someone still want to play a sorcerer when arcanist exists" and I think the answer to that is still yes even with arcanist archetypes in the picture.

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-17, 09:15 AM

Yeeeah. Is there anything a Sorcerer can do that an Arcanist of equivalent level can't do?Paragon Surge doesn't work for Arcanists the way it does for sorcerers.

caimbuel

2014-08-17, 09:16 AM

Shinken

2014-08-17, 09:22 AM

Why does it have to be unarmed? Where are the other style options that don't require you to train at a monastery to use? I like halberd styles and longsword fencing, for example. Where do I find the feat for a mordhau, or to jab the guy over and over with the blunt end of my polearm?
Ah, I understand now. While I agree with you, that was never the point of Style feats in Pathfinder. We do have a few feats for other weapon styles, though - they are just not called Style feats.

Squirrel_Dude

2014-08-17, 09:22 AM

Why worry about the arcanist? I find the wizard with the arcanists exploits and such to be T0 or whatever is above T1. Wizard has always been T1 for their spells, losing specialization to gain all the shenanigans of the arcanist and still have wizard casting is the measuring stick for all other class's now. YMMV

Edit: One reason the arcanist was made was probably to slide this archtype in. Someone at Pazio seems to lover OP casters.Nah. Judging by most archetypes recently, the exploiter wizard probably exists because they didn't have any other ideas, and figured they might as well make one semi-related to what else is in the book.

Snowbluff

2014-08-17, 09:39 AM

Ah, I understand now. While I agree with you, that was never the point of Style feats in Pathfinder. We do have a few feats for other weapon styles, though - they are just not called Style feats.

Few, and they barely do anything and they cost too many feats. I can only think of a couple, like Dazzling Display (meh) and Cornugan Smash (decent).

And just an FYI, style feats existed before PF. Granted, they cost too many feats in most cases.

caimbuel

2014-08-17, 09:51 AM

Nah. Judging by most archetypes recently, the exploiter wizard probably exists because they didn't have any other ideas, and figured they might as well make one semi-related to what else is in the book.

Well the exploiter wizard broke the bank IMO. The loss vs gain is incredibly off balance. And with it I feel that a new player wanting to play "gandalf" or some such would be the only one to play an arcanist, Human sorc beats it for spamming and wizard has it all day for versatility and 1 level sooner higher spells. The Exploiter Wizard archetype adds to the wizards gain on the arcanist with the same immediate action counter spell shenanigans on top all that err, umm, ahh, ya, cheese.

PsyBomb

2014-08-17, 10:29 AM

Hunter and Investigator are up on d20pfsrd. Again, I'm liking what I'm seeing.

stack

2014-08-17, 10:58 AM

Hunter and Investigator are up on d20pfsrd. Again, I'm liking what I'm seeing.

I don't see them now. Other times there has been inadvertent access to the working area of the site, allowing material to be viewed before they wanted to post it publicly.

Zrak

2014-08-17, 11:27 AM

Nobody's really been talking about Shaman. How much did it get changed from the playtest model?

Jacob.Tyr

2014-08-17, 11:29 AM

Hunter and Investigator are up on d20pfsrd. Again, I'm liking what I'm seeing.

Hunter popped up last night, don't know why they aren't visible to you now. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes)

I love the Hunter, I hope it has an archetype to trade out casting, though. If I wind up making a character for a game at 14+, definitely making a hunter with a rhino companion, set up with minotaur's charge and entangling strike, and having Coordinated Charge teamwork feat. Hunter charges, attacks, companions gets an immediate action to charge, knocks back and entangles. Companions turn-Charge and knockback, hunter gets immediate action to charge. Maybe add on the skirmisher free trip attempt ability, for knockback, entangle, and knockdown on every one of the rhino's charges.

Investigator is a bit odd, to me. It is a pretty heavy leader in skill monkey, but it sort of just lacks in combat.

Studied Combat being expended every time you want to make a single studied strike, taking a move action to study, and not being able to reapply on the same monster for 24 hours is.. limited. If it worked on ranged I'd be a bit happier about it, to be honest; it could be a nice sniper setup that applies debuffs on hit. Some of the Investigator Talents you can apply through it are nice, but the level requirements seem way too high to me.

Prime32

2014-08-17, 11:37 AM

There was a trick where a bladebound magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound) used a sword cane pistol as their black blade, then dipped wizard with the spellslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spellslinger) archetype and designated it as their arcane gun, allowing them to get a large bonus to save DCs with no risk of misfire. Now it seems wizard/arcanist does it better (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/archetypes/paizo---arcanist-archetypes/blade-adept). :smallsigh:

Snowbluff

2014-08-17, 11:40 AM

AttilaTheGeek

2014-08-17, 11:51 AM

But still, my next toon will probably be a blade bound arcanist with eldritch strike.

Eldritch Strike?

Snowbluff

2014-08-17, 11:57 AM

Eldritch Strike?

Eldritch Knight. I meant knight. :smalltongue:

Zrak

2014-08-17, 01:05 PM

Is it just me, or does the Arcane Reservoir section read like the size of the reservoir continues to increase for multi-classed Arcanists? If that's correct, arcanists might be the best base class for a gish, if you pick the right exploits before prestiging out. If that's correct, Arcanist 6/EK 10/AA 4 has CL 18, BAB 17, and full uses of three exploits.

caimbuel

2014-08-17, 01:13 PM

The arcanist's arcane reservoir can hold a maximum amount of magical energy equal to 3 + the arcanist's level. Each day, when preparing spells, the arcanist's arcane reservoir fills with raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to 3 + 1/2 her arcanist level.

where is the multi-class friendly in there?

BlackDragonKing

2014-08-17, 01:27 PM

Even restricted to just "punching" - which, as has already been pointed out, isn't defined anywhere (and certainly doesn't equate to unarmed strikes which are specifically called out as not having to involve one's hands at all), that feat is still better than either Clustered Shots or Vital Strike. The second feat in the chain is basically Pounce as a feat. Both can be had by anyone willing to sacrifice two levels to a MoMS dip. I'd seriously consider it for any unarmed fighting build except Brawler. It might even be enough to make a Scout Rogue (or Scout Ninja) viable in a fight.

I'm pro-martial-classes-getting-nice-things, and I think this is broken. But they'll "fix" it the same way they fixed MoMS dippers getting Crane Wing early - by destroying the feat instead of doing something about the MoMS dip that's letting people get mid-level abilities at level two or three.

I actually disagree with you very strongly on this being overpowered for early access.

MoMS dip for Crane Wing created problems because Pathfinder Society has needlessly restrictive and poorly thought-out encounter design that is easily thwarted by something as simple as a melee-type deflect arrows and high armor class. Crane Wing early access is as good early game as it is late game; in fact, Crane Wing is probably a lot better early game because so few adversaries have multiple attacks at that point in the game. This gives a MoMS dipper a huge edge in E6 and the like, although I find the notion this is somehow more broken than the almighty E6 Heavens Oracle completely laughable.

Pummeling style literally doesn't do anything if you can't full attack or flurry, and the MoMS gives a number of things to dippers but not flurry of blows or a helpful BAB increase. Getting early access to the feat is a meaningless waste of time because the feat has no power until mid-level anyway.