Feats how are they?

[DontEatRawHagis]

I've been reading through the feats and they seem like a mix bag.

Instance the Dual Wielder seems to not do a lot except give +1 AC. Whereas Elemental Adept ignores resistances.

Thoughts?

[obryn]

They're probably the best feats D&D has ever had, but they still have their problems. I'm counting Resilient as a feat tax for most characters.

[pwykersotz]

They aren't the Prestige-classes-in-a-can that I thought they would be, and I'm sad to not see Arcane Archer, but they offer an incredible amount of rewards for each one. I haven't had a chance to test them in game yet. I'm cautiously optimistic.

[Naanomi]

There are winners and losers, to be sure, but I feel they compete well with the +2 to a stat you give up for them and do help round out the Fighter class very well. Far more 'winners' than 'losers' by my estimate as well, which is nice.

Winners: Alert, Defensive Duelist, Dungeon Delver, Elemental Adept, Heavy Armor Master, Mage Slayer, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Sharpshooter, Shield Master, Skulker, Spell-Sniper, War Caster

Losers: Dual Wielder, Keen Mind, Linguist, Medium Armor Master

Notes:
Dungeon Delver + Observant + good skill check (expertize?) = Find hidden stuff more-or-less automatically

Polearm Master + Sentinel = 3.Xish battlefield control

Polearm Master + Sentinel + War Caster = 3.xish battlefield control with a spell!

Mounted Combatant + Rogue = Sneak attack enabler (flavor a bit off here....)

[Person_Man]

I agree with the posters above. They're much better then Feats from any previous edition, though I would have preferred for them to basically be the equivalent to an optional list of class abilities or prestige class abilities that every class has access to.

My biggest problem is that some Feats are basically just patches to problematic rules.

Resilient fixes non-scaling Saves (which is a big issue for Dex and Wis at high levels).

Polearm Master allows Opportunity Attacks to actually be triggered occasionally (its otherwise very difficult and/or illogical for an intelligent creature to trigger one).

Tavern Brawler makes Unarmed Strike a worthwhile option for non-Monks (a niche Mearls felt needed to be protected).

War Caster allows you to actually pass Concentration checks regularly (otherwise an entire category of spells are highly unreliable).

[Sartharina]

Eh... I actually don't have problems with those feats, but I might later if the system matures improperly.

Polearm master is for those who want to focus on battlefield control. As it is, OAs still pop up when a Full Retreat is needed, or you need to get somewhere else now - Withdraw only really works if you have an ally to keep the enemies from keeping up with your retreat.

War Caster is required for mages that actually put themselves in danger regularly - most mages can avoid that with good team coordination and care in what they're doing.

[akaddk]

The only problem I have with them is that there aren't enough and there isn't enough variety.

Some concepts I can easily build, others I'm finding none of the feats really suit.

[Chambers]

As I've been thinking about different character concepts I've found that I want to use at least one feat, usually more, for each character. It's a tough decision because of how tight ability scores are and how they impact the game. I've been leaning towards the few feats that offer a +1 ability score increase + some other ability, simply because it's a hard choice to really give up that ability score increase.

I've also found that feat selection directly impacts point buy allocation as I need to determine which feats I want, what level I want to take it at, and how I can place my ability scores to account for a deficiency in ability score improvements. In other words the character creation process is reordered: Class -> Feats -> Race -> Ability Scores. If I'm going to use 2 or more feats it basically means that I need to choose a race that provides ability score bonuses to either my primary ability scores or the ones that I'm going to dump/won't get improved.

Feats are neat. They're fun. They do cool things, and I want my character to do cool things. But taking a feat in this system means I'm directly reducing the effectiveness of my character in some other fashion (fewer HP, less To Hit, weaker Saves, etc, all compared to what they would have been if I had taken an ability score improvement instead). I kinda wish that you didn't have to choose between ability score improvement or a feat, because each choice (ability score or feat) benefits your character in some way and at the same time weakens your character in another (in the case of choosing an ability score you lose out on whatever benefit the feat provided).

I'm toying with a houserule that all characters get a feat every x levels like in 3e. Because of the expected cost of feats in 5e the progression would be much slower than in 3e/4e; maybe 2 or 3 feats over 20 levels, 6th/12th/18th for example.

[Naanomi]

I'm toying with a houserule that all characters get a feat every x levels like in 3e. Because of the expected cost of feats in 5e the progression would be much slower than in 3e/4e; maybe 2 or 3 feats over 20 levels, 6th/12th/18th for example.
You just have to watch that Fighter doesn't lose it's punch when the bonus feats it gets are not so enticing.

[Chambers]

Yeah, but in this scenario the Fighter can choose the ability score improvement from her Fighter ABI/Feat's with an easier conscious knowing that she'll be getting a few feats for free.

[HorridElemental]

So let's forget everything 4e taught us about giving Fighters actual class features and make them generic husks of a class that anyone else can replicate.

Sure that sounds like a good idea.

[Chambers]

So let's forget everything 4e taught us about giving Fighters actual class features and make them generic husks of a class that anyone else can replicate.

Sure that sounds like a good idea.

That's an exaggeration.

First to note is that the extra ABI/Feat's that the Fighter gets are not it's main class feature.

Fighters get 2 more Ability Score Improvements than other classes. They have actual class features and choices within the class (Martial Archetypes). Giving all characters 3 free feats does not make Fighter "a class that anyone else can replicate."

You can't fully replicate the Battle Master with 3 free feats, nor the Champion, nor the Eldritch Knight. You can't replicate the Extra Attacks that a Fighter gets with 3 free feats. You can't replicate Action Surge with a feat. The statement that giving a few free feats to everyone invalidates the Fighter is not true.

Now, whether handing out a feat every tier or so (6th/12th/18th) upsets the balance of the game is another issue entirely, one that I don't have a position on one way or the other at the moment.

[Yagyujubei]

just thinking about a monk rolling with the Mobile feat makes me smile so very much. Im super tempted to roll one now. a Half elf monk with mobility ends up with like 70+ft movement even without dashing lol.

[Naanomi]

just thinking about a monk rolling with the Mobile feat makes me smile so very much. Im super tempted to roll one now. a Half elf monk with mobility ends up with like 70+ft movement even without dashing lol.
Wood Elf Barbarian 5/Monk 14 + Mobile feat is what... 80 ft movement with a free move as a bonus action while raging? Win every footrace ever!

[VeliciaL]

Wood Elf Barbarian 5/Monk 14 + Mobile feat is what... 80 ft movement with a free move as a bonus action while raging? Win every footrace ever!

Just try not to punch the other runners in rage. :smallbiggrin:

[Angelalex242]

Perhaps a good house rule is 'instead of feats OR ability bonus, feat AND ability bonus.'

[Knaight]

The only problem I have with them is that there aren't enough and there isn't enough variety.

Some concepts I can easily build, others I'm finding none of the feats really suit.

This will change. Some amount of splats are all but announced, and I'd be very surprised if something like the Complete line didn't appear again, with all the feats that implies.

[akaddk]

If you have a hard-on for movement speed, then:

Wood Elf + 5-ft.
Mobile + 10-ft.
Barbarian (5th-level) + 10-ft.
Monk (2nd-level) + 10-ft.
Longstrider (spell, cast on you) + 10-ft.
Transmuter's Stone (can be given) + 10-ft.

Add in two Rogue levels for Cunning Action and a Haste spell for an extra Dash action and you can move...

...255-ft. per turn https://i.imgur.com/ASk9Gfc.gif

[Angelalex242]

And then you name him Wally West.

[VeliciaL]

If you have a hard-on for movement speed, then:

Wood Elf + 5-ft.
Mobile + 10-ft.
Barbarian (5th-level) + 10-ft.
Monk (2nd-level) + 10-ft.
Longstrider (spell, cast on you) + 10-ft.
Transmuter's Stone (can be given) + 10-ft.

Add in two Rogue levels for Cunning Action and a Haste spell for an extra Dash action and you can move...

...255-ft. per turn https://i.imgur.com/ASk9Gfc.gif

Which according to Google's unit convertor, comes out to... 25.5 MPH*. Not a bad :smallbiggrin: except Usain Bolt has been clocked at 44.72 MPH :smalleek:

* a round is 6 seconds, right?

[akaddk]

Which according to Google's unit convertor, comes out to... 25.5 MPH*. Not a bad :smallbiggrin: except Usain Bolt has been clocked at 44.72 MPH :smalleek:

* a round is 6 seconds, right?

Sure, but could he do that in COMBAT?!

Running a straight line is easy. Running all over a battlefield like a zig-zagging ball of Jim Carrey crossed with Robin Williams on coke (too soon?) is a different matter altogether.

[Knaight]

Which according to Google's unit convertor, comes out to... 25.5 MPH*. Not a bad :smallbiggrin: except Usain Bolt has been clocked at 44.72 MPH :smalleek:

* a round is 6 seconds, right?

I'm not seeing anything over 28 for peak speed. The 44.72 figure I only found in kilometers per hour, which is 27.44 miles per hour. Even the 28 involved mathematical modeling of speed assuming nonuniform performance in a sprint, and not an actual measurement. The 25.5 is pretty close to the record, and it is for someone hauling equipment, wearing armor, etc.

[VeliciaL]

I'm not seeing anything over 28 for peak speed. The 44.72 figure I only found in kilometers per hour, which is 27.44 miles per hour. Even the 28 involved mathematical modeling of speed assuming nonuniform performance in a sprint, and not an actual measurement. The 25.5 is pretty close to the record, and it is for someone hauling equipment, wearing armor, etc.

Derp, you're right. That should be 44.72 Km/H, which converts to a much more comparable 27.44 MPH.

[akaddk]

Oops, I messed up. The 255-ft. per turn number is based on a move and two Dash actions. I forgot to add in the extra Dash as an action. So that makes it actually 340-ft. per turn (85-ft. movement rate).

[Aricandor]

I like them, I just think it's a conceptual shame to have them compete with core numbers upgrades. Not broken, or anything, just a shame that they'll see less use than they could by virtue of how they're actually providing interesting and significant bonuses, not just minor +1s or +2s. Some sort of limited feat progression seems like it'd be a fair enough thing to house rule in if you want to use them more (as I do), given the 20 stat cap keeps people from just using feats to super-optimize their main stat and how some feats seem like they'd be really important to make certain character concepts even work well mechanically in the first place.

Some feats probably could do with having a +1 stat bump attached. Magic Initiate, for instance, seems to me like it'd be a very tough sell for any non-human. There are also a few cases where it feels like you have very little reason *not* to take a feat over a stat bump, notably whenever you're dealing with an odd-number main stat - for instance with the half-elf warlock I'm currently scheduled to play, it seems I might as well pick up Actor and get some social bonuses on top of the stat boost. What do people think about this kind of case? Bug? Feature? Inevitable? Something else?

[akaddk]

I like them, I just think it's a conceptual shame to have them compete with core numbers upgrades.
I used to feel the same way but I think I've come around now, especially after making a few 20th-level characters and being forced to make the "Feat or ability score" choices.

[Angelalex242]

And?

I still say the houserule of AND, not OR is a good idea.

[Yagyujubei]

And?

I still say the houserule of AND, not OR is a good idea.

i think that idea is way too broken. maybe like each character gets one freebie MAYBE two, but being able to 20 all your core stats AND get 4 feats is way too powerful for the game.

[eastmabl]

If you have a hard-on for movement speed, then:

Wood Elf + 5-ft.
Mobile + 10-ft.
Barbarian (5th-level) + 10-ft.
Monk (2nd-level) + 10-ft.
Longstrider (spell, cast on you) + 10-ft.
Transmuter's Stone (can be given) + 10-ft.

Add in two Rogue levels for Cunning Action and a Haste spell for an extra Dash action and you can move...

...255-ft. per turn https://i.imgur.com/ASk9Gfc.gif


Oops, I messed up. The 255-ft. per turn number is based on a move and two Dash actions. I forgot to add in the extra Dash as an action. So that makes it actually 340-ft. per turn (85-ft. movement rate).

By my understanding of this, you get far faster.

As above, the base speed of Pheidippides, wood elf rogue/barbarian/monk, is 85 feet. Hasted, his speed doubles to 170 feet ("ntil the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled"). This is your new move speed.

This is your action economy - not only can you move, but you have two actions - your normal action, and your additional action from being hasted ("[the target] gains an [u]additional action on each of its turns... [t]hat can be used... to dash"). Icing on the cake is your access to bonus actions from Cunning

Pheidpiddes moves 170 feet and has other actions available. Using his regular action, he dashes (340). Using his hasted additional action, he dashes again (510). Finally, since he has a bonus action and somewhere to be, you dash again via Cunning Action. All in all, you've moved 680 feet in a single round.

Assuming, to this point, that my understanding of the rules is correct, 680 feet in six seconds, or 113.333 Feet per second is 77.2725 Miles per Hour (see: http://www.calculateme.com/Speed/FeetperSecond/ToMilesperHour.htm). You would be outrunning traffic on interstates, if only they existed in your elfgame.

[pwykersotz]

By my understanding of this, you get far faster.

As above, the base speed of Pheidippides, wood elf rogue/barbarian/monk, is 85 feet. Hasted, his speed doubles to 170 feet ("ntil the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled"). This is your new move speed.

This is your action economy - not only can you move, but you have two actions - your normal action, and your additional action from being hasted ("[the target] gains an [u]additional action on each of its turns... [t]hat can be used... to dash"). Icing on the cake is your access to bonus actions from Cunning Action.

So you move 170 feet. You use your regular action to dash another 170 feet, and use your additional action to dash another 170 feet. Just when you think you're done, you use your bonus action to

Now, move you move 170 feet and have other actions available. Using your Cunning Action ability, you dash as a bonus action. Since you have a bonus action and somewhere to be, you dash again via Cunning Action. All in all, you've moved 680 feet in a single round.

Assuming, to this point, that my understanding of the rules is correct, 680 feet in six seconds, or 113.333 Feet per second is 77.2725 Miles per Hour (see: http://www.calculateme.com/Speed/FeetperSecond/ToMilesperHour.htm). You would be outrunning traffic on interstates, if only they existed in your elfgame.

*Clap*Clap*Clap*

That's beautiful.

[Marius]

i think that idea is way too broken. maybe like each character gets one freebie MAYBE two, but being able to 20 all your core stats AND get 4 feats is way too powerful for the game.

Too powerful compared to what?

[Yagyujubei]

Too powerful compared to what?

to what WotC intended when they made the rules, and probably to any WotC made campaign. If your group want's to feel really powerful and your DM doesn't mind tweaking encounters to keep the challenge there then by all means go for it, and dont get me wrong I love feeling like a total badass so I would totally go for it if the DM could ramp the encounters up personally.

If that's not the case though having all those extra feats will make things too easy imho.

[Angelalex242]

Nah. It's really no different then changing the point buy people start with.

Some people want the standard 27 point buy characters.

Maybe I want to run a game with 32 point buy characters. If I do, and my players have fun, why not?

If I then want to let them have an ability boost AND a feat...who cares? It just makes your characters feel that little bit more heroic, that little bit more epic. Does having that extra stuff unbalance the game? Not really...a +5 is 10% better then the +3 you started with. Does it matter? Well, yes, a little, but it doesn't eliminate failure either. It just maximizes the odds of success.

[Yagyujubei]

Nah. It's really no different then changing the point buy people start with.

Some people want the standard 27 point buy characters.

Maybe I want to run a game with 32 point buy characters. If I do, and my players have fun, why not?

If I then want to let them have an ability boost AND a feat...who cares? It just makes your characters feel that little bit more heroic, that little bit more epic. Does having that extra stuff unbalance the game? Not really...a +5 is 10% better then the +3 you started with. Does it matter? Well, yes, a little, but it doesn't eliminate failure either. It just maximizes the odds of success.

yeah.....i said it up to each group to decide, that was just my personal opinion

[Totema]

If anything, I'm letting all my players take Resilient for free when they make a new character.

[HorridElemental]

If anything, I'm letting all my players take Resilient for free when they make a new character.

This might be the most popular houserule out there.

[akaddk]

Hasted, his speed doubles to 170 feet ("[u]ntil the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled").
Oh, I missed that bit.

Still not quite Flash levels but I'm sure we'll get there :D

[VeliciaL]

Oh, I missed that bit.

Still not quite Flash levels but I'm sure we'll get there :D

No, but we've so far tripled the speed of the best runner in the world. :smallbiggrin: Hell, I think we've bested a cheetah at this point...

[Zeuel]

I kind of prefer the stats/saves as are. I mean only having 2 proficient saves on average means that support classes are that much more important and people will have to work together and have team work. Maybe if the Fighter is about to be nailed by a spell requiring a Wisdom save that the Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer could help them out by counterspelling the enemy casting it. I think people want to be self-contained bada**es so much instead of having to rely on their team mates in what has been a team based game for a long time. :/

[Naanomi]

I kind of prefer the stats/saves as are. I mean only having 2 proficient saves on average means that support classes are that much more important and people will have to work together and have team work.
Also, that Monk ability at 14 of being proficient in all saves is fantastic but loses a little bit when people get handed more

[Telwar]

Also, that Monk ability at 14 of being proficient in all saves is fantastic but loses a little bit when people get handed more

How many people are actually going to get to 14, though?

[Yagyujubei]

Also, that Monk ability at 14 of being proficient in all saves is fantastic but loses a little bit when people get handed more

i agree, monk has so many amazing survivability abilities that you could kinda get otherwise with feats, so if you give character so many extra feats then monk gets cancelled out so hard.

[akaddk]

Kids these days don't want to be challenged.

[CyberThread]

You seen the monsters lately mister grumpy sleep disorder pants? The monsters are beefier this time around also.

[da_chicken]

In my day we called ourselves lucky if we started at level 0 with rusty leather armor and a bent club! And we liked it! :smallwink:

In all honesty, I do understand the sentiment that a lot of these kinds of house rules seem to boil down to making the PCs tougher for (IMO) dubious reasons. I won't begrudge another person's enjoyment of the game, but I think high level PCs should be changing their underwear after an encounter with a spellcaster. Death isn't entirely permanent at those levels, and danger shouldn't disappear just because your level is over the age of consent.

[Zeuel]

I know nobody really talks about it, but Lucky has to be one of my favorite feats since ironically it helps to take luck out of the equation. :P

[akaddk]

In my day we called ourselves lucky if we started at level 0 with rusty leather armor and a bent club! And we liked it! :smallwink:

You got armour?

Man, I wish I had a Monty Haul DM like yours.