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StoryKeeper
2014-08-14, 06:06 PM
Mechanically, I actually kind of like bards. Tossing out party-wide buffs, hitting things a reasonable amount of the time, having enough skill points to pull off some interesting actions, and casting the odd (usually unorthodox) spell all appeals to me. The problem is that, despite having what I consider to be a fairly generous suspension of disbelief, I have trouble justifying going around singing or shouting stories or what have you. Like, I get the impression the bard would be a full BAB class if it would stop reciting poetry and focus on stabbing stuff. I'd be sitting that guy down after every fight and explaining to him how playing the guitar is not an activity that should be concurrent with watching your friends being chewed on my dragons.

In some settings, you can magic it away. "Oh, in our setting, certain people or songs are magical, so bards are really just casting a weird sort of spell when they sing." Or maybe he's just evoking the power of 4th wall breaking awesome narrative voice overs. Works for me! Problem is, my group has taken to playing in established settings of late (specifically Pathfinder's Gollarion), and to my knowledge, bards who sing are just, literally, singing. Or reciting poetry. Or dancing. Dancing is arguably even worse. Now he's not even encouraging people with a soundtrack. He's distracting them enough for them to take note of his dance moves.

How do you normally rationalize bardic performance in your games?

Angelalex242
2014-08-14, 06:12 PM
AOE Buffs are usually worth something.

Think of the Bard as a Coach.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw6G2e5rS0Q

That is, 'bardic music' actually looks more like that. His AoE buffs are the same sort of buffs a great coach provides to his football team.

Engine
2014-08-14, 06:32 PM
By picking Performance (Oratory).
You inspire your friends with a battle speech like generals, warlords and heroes have done with their troops for millenia both in reality and fiction.
St. Crispin's Day speech in Henry V, Al Pacino's speech in Any Given Sunday, the speech Alexander the Great gave to his troops to encourage them to go forward in unexplored lands and so on. There's no magic and it's not silly at all - quite the contrary, a good speech could be epic at the eve of a pivotal fight in your campaign.

Fortis
2014-08-14, 06:45 PM
This might be slightly tangential, but I've always wanted to make an orc or half orc bard, and refluff their songs as the orc playing war drums. Don't tell me you wouldn't fight better listening to something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpIhbDN58mA (Or at least the first minute and half of that. For the life of me, I couldn't find any purely percussion war drums sounding tracks). Anyway, never did try it, orc stats don't really line up with bard requirements. But someday.

Flashy
2014-08-14, 08:20 PM
This might be slightly tangential, but I've always wanted to make an orc or half orc bard, and refluff their songs as the orc playing war drums. Don't tell me you wouldn't fight better listening to something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpIhbDN58mA (Or at least the first minute and half of that. For the life of me, I couldn't find any purely percussion war drums sounding tracks). Anyway, never did try it, orc stats don't really line up with bard requirements. But someday.

One of the best bard builds I've ever seen was someone on these forums suggesting a dwarf bard who played a grossly oversized war drum and, since bardic music is a free action to maintain once started, also was able to full attack by continuing to beat out the tune on the skulls of his enemies.

EDIT: Quote
First idea is to pick a bard who doesn't use Perform (Sing).

Fireblood Dwarf Bard with Perform (Drum). Wears a set of heavy-duty drums around his waist, and carries a pair of 'drumsticks', one of which is big enough to count as a Heavy Mace. Since Bardic Music is a free action to maintain once started, his can keep up his beat while wading into battle and playing a refrain on his enemies' skulls.

Spend a feat for Dragonfire Inspiration, and your mace (and the weapons of all your friends) are on fire (or ice, or sonic, or whatever) as well. This is mildly less optimal than a Human Bard would, since you're taking a -2 Charisma penalty to your spellcasting...but you get +2 Con for extra HP, and it's definitely got style. Most other Bardic ACFs and PO tricks can be used on this chassis, albeit one feat behind relative to Silverbrow Human, but at the core you remain a heavy-metal-rocker dwarf drummer of doom.

Tengu_temp
2014-08-14, 08:26 PM
Combat bard music is not declaring flowery love poetry while you're plinking on a lute. It's energetic and powerful songs that raise your spirit and make your blood boil. Imagine your favorite power metal band, give them more setting-appropriate instruments, and there you go.

bulbaquil
2014-08-14, 09:25 PM
The effects are specifically called out as supernatural or magical in the Bardic Performance mechanics. Every single one of them is an (Su) or (Sp) ability.

There's nothing stopping a bard from continuing to sing/dance/play music/give a speech after their rounds per day of bardic performance have expired; it just means they can no longer channel supernatural energy in their song/dance/music/speech until they've had a chance to recuperate. If you stick a bard in an Anti-Magic Field, their in-combat performances are just as useless as they would be in real life, and then yes, they had better stop reciting poetry and focus on stabbing stuff :smallsmile:

Also, what other posters have said - it's rousing speeches, battle hymns, that sort of thing - not what they would be doing in town to earn gp during downtime. You could kind of fluff Perform (Dance) as cheerleading routines....

VoxRationis
2014-08-14, 11:32 PM
It's like the music playing in the gym while you're working out, or the rousing battle score for the final boss of a video game. It's the stirring speech given by a commander before the climactic battle. In AD&D, the bard could inspire courage before the battle began, which in my opinion was better, since you'd think one would have better things to do in combat than listen to a speech.
Now, when your bard takes Perform (dance), now things start getting silly.

Prince Raven
2014-08-15, 01:41 AM
I find this thread interesting, as it runs completely opposite to my thinking of "how can I make my Bardic Performance as silly as possible?"

Socksy
2014-08-15, 04:49 AM
I find this thread interesting, as it runs completely opposite to my thinking of "how can I make my Bardic Performance as silly as possible?"

Perform (Mime). It's even optimised to give silent spells and work in a Silence field!

My last bard was a Maenad, and was a screamo singer. Maenads' sonic breath-weapon-esque attack to hurt your enemies and help your allies? Yeessss.

Thrudd
2014-08-15, 05:28 AM
Mechanically, I actually kind of like bards. Tossing out party-wide buffs, hitting things a reasonable amount of the time, having enough skill points to pull off some interesting actions, and casting the odd (usually unorthodox) spell all appeals to me. The problem is that, despite having what I consider to be a fairly generous suspension of disbelief, I have trouble justifying going around singing or shouting stories or what have you. Like, I get the impression the bard would be a full BAB class if it would stop reciting poetry and focus on stabbing stuff. I'd be sitting that guy down after every fight and explaining to him how playing the guitar is not an activity that should be concurrent with watching your friends being chewed on my dragons.

In some settings, you can magic it away. "Oh, in our setting, certain people or songs are magical, so bards are really just casting a weird sort of spell when they sing." Or maybe he's just evoking the power of 4th wall breaking awesome narrative voice overs. Works for me! Problem is, my group has taken to playing in established settings of late (specifically Pathfinder's Gollarion), and to my knowledge, bards who sing are just, literally, singing. Or reciting poetry. Or dancing. Dancing is arguably even worse. Now he's not even encouraging people with a soundtrack. He's distracting them enough for them to take note of his dance moves.

How do you normally rationalize bardic performance in your games?

The bard's music ability is supernatural. So technically it doesn't matter what it sounds like, it magically affects people.

In the practical sense, as others have said, inspirational battle music would likely by something rousing. Have you ever seen "Zulu"? Remember that bit near the end, where the Zulu start chanting and taunting the Welshmen, and they are massively outnumbered and everyone looks like they've lost hope? Then the Welsh chorus leader starts singing, and the men join in a rousing rendition of "Men of Harlech", and they face the charge with courage?

Or in the chapter "The Ride of the Rohirrim": "...and they sang as they slew, and the sound of their singing came even unto the walls of the city..." There may not have been a specific bard, but the entire host of the Rohirrim sing songs of death and battle as they slaughter their enemies...how intimidating must that be? Their singing didn't limit their effectiveness at all, it pumps them up with battle fury. Later in the battle, after Eomer find Eowyn and thinks her dead, he cries "Death!" and the host behind him take up chanting "Death!" as they go into a frenzy slaughtering orcs by the thousand. At the end of it, Eomer hasn't taken a scratch. The power of poetry. :smallamused:

Prince Raven
2014-08-15, 07:58 AM
Perform (Mime). It's even optimised to give silent spells and work in a Silence field!

My last bard was a Maenad, and was a screamo singer. Maenads' sonic breath-weapon-esque attack to hurt your enemies and help your allies? Yeessss.

Actually, I've already discovered the silliest one, it's Perform (Glass Harmonica).

Svata
2014-08-15, 08:51 AM
I dunno. Perform (Sing) can be intimidating enough. Especially when paired with Perform (Dance) and followed with either Perform (Kubrick Stare) or Perform (Maniacal Laughter). 'Course you don't burn 3-4 skill points/level on that, you just pick up versatile performer and have 14-16 INT.
Two refeences. Either one gets a cookie, both get an internet.

Driderman
2014-08-15, 09:33 AM
By picking Performance (Oratory).
You inspire your friends with a battle speech like generals, warlords and heroes have done with their troops for millenia both in reality and fiction.
St. Crispin's Day speech in Henry V, Al Pacino's speech in Any Given Sunday, the speech Alexander the Great gave to his troops to encourage them to go forward in unexplored lands and so on. There's no magic and it's not silly at all - quite the contrary, a good speech could be epic at the eve of a pivotal fight in your campaign.

The problem with inspiring battle speeches is that they get kind of old if you do them every single time there's an encounter. Even fantasy roleplay can only handle so many "once more unto the breech" speeches in a given session.

For my part, the only types of bard that really work for me are either Bladedancer-types (inspiration through masterful combat-"dancing", which doesn't really mesh well with a mediocre BAB) and chanter/drumer-types, since these guys provide a battle rhythm of sorts.
Of course, for sillier games over-the-top power-hero-metal bards quoting Manowar and such are great fun :smallbiggrin:

Anonymouswizard
2014-08-15, 10:38 AM
I have a problem with singing bards, but that's because I imagine bards as being focused combatants, so taking time out of battling to sing at your allies struck me as wrong.

I like acting bards. You can fluff it as you fighting so stylishly that your allies fight harder.

However, my next project when I play D&D is to have a pair of bards in the party, one with perform (swanny whistle) and the other with perform (kazoo). Or maybe perform (piano) and perform (songs to the tune of other songs). No points for guessing what I've been listening to.

Jay R
2014-08-15, 12:29 PM
The problem with inspiring battle speeches is that they get kind of old if you do them every single time there's an encounter. Even fantasy roleplay can only handle so many "once more unto the breech" speeches in a given session.

The effect of Patton's speech on the Third Army demonstrably affected them for close to a year.

Engine
2014-08-15, 12:32 PM
The problem with inspiring battle speeches is that they get kind of old if you do them every single time there's an encounter. Even fantasy roleplay can only handle so many "once more unto the breech" speeches in a given session.

Of course, if you repeat the same speech with minor variation every time there's an encounter becomes boring really fast. But please read the speech I mentioned: they have similiarities, yet they're distinct and quite compelling. As everything in a roleplaying game, imagination and a little preparation are your friends, so if you prepare two or three brief speeches (more brief than the one I mentioned) for every session I truly doubt players will find that boring or old.
At least that's what I did when I played an Arcane Duelist in a Pathfinder game, and everyone at the table appreciated it. Especially when the next Bard (a new player) was just "I use Bardic Performance".

Zombimode
2014-08-15, 01:29 PM
Keep in mind that activating Bardic Music just takes a standard action. Sure, you can maintain it longer, but most of the time you'll be activating it in one round and then do something else for at least the next 5 turns.

So for most of the time, the Bard will only do a quick riff or chanting/shouting a quick line and then magic pretty much takes over.

draken50
2014-08-15, 01:51 PM
This might be slightly tangential, but I've always wanted to make an orc or half orc bard, and refluff their songs as the orc playing war drums. Don't tell me you wouldn't fight better listening to something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpIhbDN58mA (Or at least the first minute and half of that. For the life of me, I couldn't find any purely percussion war drums sounding tracks). Anyway, never did try it, orc stats don't really line up with bard requirements. But someday.

I think some stuff from the Two steps from Hell album All Drums go to hell might fit what you're looking for.

DragonkingUs20
2014-08-15, 04:48 PM
I think the bardic performances would be more interesting if they had some flavor.. The same way you would add flavor to spells. ie. "Embers of flame spark from your fingertips as a fireball is conjured from the air and leaps forth from your hands". Have the bardic songs resonant from within the bard, casting multiple voices through the air and shake the innards of his allies and foes. As the bard dances, have his image cast multiple images (like the Lord Marshal from chronicles of riddick) or move in spurts of fast & slow motion. MAKE it cool.

I also like the idea of a valkyrie battle cry inspiring the party and causing their foes to release their bowels.

Driderman
2014-08-15, 05:14 PM
Of course, if you repeat the same speech with minor variation every time there's an encounter becomes boring really fast. But please read the speech I mentioned: they have similiarities, yet they're distinct and quite compelling. As everything in a roleplaying game, imagination and a little preparation are your friends, so if you prepare two or three brief speeches (more brief than the one I mentioned) for every session I truly doubt players will find that boring or old.
At least that's what I did when I played an Arcane Duelist in a Pathfinder game, and everyone at the table appreciated it. Especially when the next Bard (a new player) was just "I use Bardic Performance".

But when you do a brief speech as part of the standard buff routine (Bull's Strength, check; Bear's Endurance, check; Haste, check; Rousing battlespeech, check, etcetera) it quickly becomes old hat. Also, when you do an inspiring speech and it's just to mop up some underlevelled encounter or totally inappropriate in some other way.

I'm not saying it can't be done right, I'm just saying D&D makes it pretty easy to do it wrong instead. Of course, it also depends very much on what kind of games you tend to play. For my part, when I played D&D we tended towards more low-magic fantasy, hardly realistic but low-key and gritty which really doesn't lend itself particularly well to bard antics.

Kyuu Himura
2014-08-15, 05:50 PM
But when you do a brief speech as part of the standard buff routine (Bull's Strength, check; Bear's Endurance, check; Haste, check; Rousing battlespeech, check, etcetera) it quickly becomes old hat. Also, when you do an inspiring speech and it's just to mop up some underlevelled encounter or totally inappropriate in some other way.

Warcries, warcries are the way to go, check Captain America. In a big crisis the man gives out a heartfelt speech about the courage of heroes and the importance of mantaining your convictions and what-have-you. In a run of the mill fight? AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!!

Fortis
2014-08-15, 08:58 PM
I think some stuff from the Two steps from Hell album All Drums go to hell might fit what you're looking for.

That is exactly it! Thank you, that music sounds awesome.

Cikomyr
2014-08-15, 09:11 PM
Fun fact: i managed to convince a GM that Perform (Mime) would actually work when used to Inspire Competence on a move silently check.

If you want a good example of a way to realistically inspire courage in people during a battle, i suggest you check up the recent Hercule movie. Tricks are surprisingly effective :-P

But in all seriousness, violence-appropriate perform skills are obviously War Chant, Oratory and my favourite: Weapon Drill.

Hell, you can justify walking up to a group expecting violence and Fascinate them with showy impressive swordsmanship. It makes sense, and gives your group a fantastic distraction to exploit.

Plus, i once managed to swindle a tribe leader into believing my (low quality) metal weapon was a fantastic surnatural weapon, and traded a lot for it. My Weapon Drill roll reached 35... :D

Sartharina
2014-08-15, 09:45 PM
Even singing works - especially in Pathfinder, if you have Ghost Sound to provide BGM at will.

Engine
2014-08-16, 04:37 AM
But when you do a brief speech as part of the standard buff routine (Bull's Strength, check; Bear's Endurance, check; Haste, check; Rousing battlespeech, check, etcetera) it quickly becomes old hat. Also, when you do an inspiring speech and it's just to mop up some underlevelled encounter or totally inappropriate in some other way.

I'm not saying it can't be done right, I'm just saying D&D makes it pretty easy to do it wrong instead. Of course, it also depends very much on what kind of games you tend to play. For my part, when I played D&D we tended towards more low-magic fantasy, hardly realistic but low-key and gritty which really doesn't lend itself particularly well to bard antics.

Just because it could be done wrong (as much as a lot of things in D&D) doesn't mean it's bad. I understand that you don't like this kind of performance for the Bard, but it's perfectly valid, it's not silly, it works.

Lord Raziere
2014-08-16, 05:04 AM
Perform (Funeral Dirge):
You sing of lost lives, of the horrors of war, of men who gave their lives valiantly so that others may be safe, and the pain of battle.

Perform (Dovaahkin):
Need I say more?

Perform (War Chant):
You constantly chant certain phrases of war and battle, instilling them with power.

Perform (Animal Imitation):
Key your spells to certain animal roars.

SouthpawSoldier
2014-08-16, 05:24 AM
A pet project of mine has been working Polynesian & Hawaiian culture into D&D. The latest iteration was for AMFV's Paladin Gestalt game.

Nothing fluffs better for Inspire Courage than a haka.

Aedilred
2014-08-16, 07:31 AM
I'm inclined to agree that inspiring speeches, while they can be very effective, can be dulled by overuse, and aren't always appropriate for D&D-style multiple encounters.

Would it help to think of the bard less as a cheerleader, and more as a sort of regimental musician?

Get the bard to take Perform (Bagpipes). A few seconds of that and you want to kill something.

The Insanity
2014-08-16, 07:41 AM
By not making it silly. Because it isn't. It's whatever you'll make it to be.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-16, 08:32 AM
I'd be more interested in knowing how a bard can fit an inspiring speech in 6 seconds or less, considering that the bonus from the performance is instantaneous instead of kicking in when the speech is actually over and its inspiring meaning is made obvious.
The speech could turn out like a complete non-sequitur... Yeah, I agree, it's silly.

Prince Raven
2014-08-16, 08:35 AM
It's magic, you get the bonus whether you're inspired or not.

The Insanity
2014-08-16, 09:31 AM
I'd be more interested in knowing how a bard can fit an inspiring speech in 6 seconds or less, considering that the bonus from the performance is instantaneous instead of kicking in when the speech is actually over and its inspiring meaning is made obvious.
The speech could turn out like a complete non-sequitur... Yeah, I agree, it's silly.
Use your imagination.

Sartharina
2014-08-16, 09:51 AM
I'd be more interested in knowing how a bard can fit an inspiring speech in 6 seconds or less, considering that the bonus from the performance is instantaneous instead of kicking in when the speech is actually over and its inspiring meaning is made obvious.
The speech could turn out like a complete non-sequitur... Yeah, I agree, it's silly.
You're inspired throughout the speech, not just when it's over. If it becomes a non-sequitur, you either fight on because you don't care (The words aren't important - it's the tone), or it comes to a screeching halt.

Sam K
2014-08-16, 12:51 PM
I once played a dwarven berserker type fighter who was essentially a drunken pub fighter (I got a friend from the UK to help out with his vocabulary, and took some inspiration from ground keeper Willy in The Simpsons as well), who would enter every fight shouting profanity to his enemies and "advice" to his allies. Looking back, I should have made him a bard with Perform: cursing or Perform: smack talk. If you're not inspired by shouts like "Kick him while he's down! It's the best time, he cannae fight back!" "Take it up yer nose, ye wee pretty daisy!" and "Stab'im in de kneecaps! Kick'im in de figgins! BITE HIS TONKER OFF!" (always a favorite advice to the githzerai psion/monk), you're just not trying.

Sadly, profanity doesn't help you solo an ettin at lvl 3...

JustIgnoreMe
2014-08-16, 03:44 PM
However, my next project when I play D&D is to have a pair of bards in the party, one with perform (swanny whistle) and the other with perform (kazoo). Or maybe perform (piano) and perform (songs to the tune of other songs). No points for guessing what I've been listening to.

I object to the suggestion that Colin Sell has any ranks in Perform (Piano)!

The other month he was asked to perform at a U2 gig. Those German submarine crew reunions really know how to push the boat out.

Incidentally the BBC have arranged a special collection of Colin's entire work. They've bagged it up, and the council are sending some men round for it on Tuesday.

jaydubs
2014-08-17, 01:34 AM
I'd be more interested in knowing how a bard can fit an inspiring speech in 6 seconds or less, considering that the bonus from the performance is instantaneous instead of kicking in when the speech is actually over and its inspiring meaning is made obvious.
The speech could turn out like a complete non-sequitur... Yeah, I agree, it's silly.

The fluff could be that he's already given the speech, back when the party had a bit of time together. Now all he does is say a phrase, infused with inspirational magic, and they're brought back to the feeling they had on hearing it for the first time.

If you think about it, that's not too far off from how real world inspiration often works. People don't rally behind flags because the colors and shapes somehow inspire them. They fight because those symbols have been infused with meaning over years before that moment of decision.

Driderman
2014-08-17, 04:02 AM
The fluff could be that he's already given the speech, back when the party had a bit of time together. Now all he does is say a phrase, infused with inspirational magic, and they're brought back to the feeling they had on hearing it for the first time.

If you think about it, that's not too far off from how real world inspiration often works. People don't rally behind flags because the colors and shapes somehow inspire them. They fight because those symbols have been infused with meaning over years before that moment of decision.

Which is why it's kinda hard to condense that inspiration into a 6-second performance everytime you buff for a level-appropriate encounter :smallsmile:

Jacob.Tyr
2014-08-17, 09:56 AM
I object to the suggestion that Colin Sell has any ranks in Perform (Piano)!

The other month he was asked to perform at a U2 gig. Those German submarine crew reunions really know how to push the boat out.

Incidentally the BBC have arranged a special collection of Colin's entire work. They've bagged it up, and the council are sending some men round for it on Tuesday.

Perform (Pun) may actually be worse than Perform (Sexual)....

Sartharina
2014-08-17, 11:36 AM
Perform (Pun) may actually be worse than Perform (Sexual)....Everything is worse than Perform(Sexual)

jaydubs
2014-08-17, 11:45 AM
Which is why it's kinda hard to condense that inspiration into a 6-second performance everytime you buff for a level-appropriate encounter :smallsmile:

"For King and Country!"

"Win one for the Gipper."

"Remember the Alamo!"

"All for one, and one for all."

The bard has given a speech that has inspired in each party member a will to fight. He's keyed it so that a certain phrase brings back all of that emotion. Plus, he puts a part of his magic into it every time, making that feeling more powerful.

Since every time they hear the phrase, it makes them all fighter harder and stronger and leads to a more likely victory, it doesn't get old. It actually gets more powerful, since it now has the force of all those past triumphs behind it as well. It becomes a distillation of their fighting spirit, camaraderie, and all they have accomplished.

That seems entirely reasonable to me, even before we consider the magical portion.

Sartharina
2014-08-17, 12:00 PM
Frankly - even just singing Battle Hymns is enough to rally and inspire others. Or irrelevant songs - you can be the party's equivalent of Starlord's Walkman.

As for speeches - make them appropriate to the encounter. Dramatic speeches for dramatic encounters, trash-talking for trash encounters.

ShadowFighter15
2014-08-19, 12:02 AM
Best fluff for bardic abilities I've ever seen has to be the Chanter in Pillars of Eternity. Game's not going to be out for a few months (barring the backer beta that started today, of course) but they put up a good explanation of the class' fluff in a Kickstarter update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/843762

Jay R
2014-08-20, 10:13 AM
Bard: All right, everyone, you can go out there and fight your hardest for king and country, or you can stay here and listen to me sing!
[starts singing]
Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful trip,
That started from this tropic port,
Aboard this tiny ship...

dilepoutee
2014-08-22, 05:03 AM
AOE Buffs are usually worth something.

Think of the Bard as a Coach.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw6G2e5rS0Q

That is, 'bardic music' actually looks more like that. His AoE buffs are the same sort of buffs a great coach provides to his football team.

Great content..

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-08-22, 08:23 AM
Combat bard music is not declaring flowery love poetry while you're plinking on a lute. It's energetic and powerful songs that raise your spirit and make your blood boil. Imagine your favorite power metal band, give them more setting-appropriate instruments, and there you go.
Alternately, go full throttle metal and be awesome. Your electric guitar runs on MAGIC.

I'd be more interested in knowing how a bard can fit an inspiring speech in 6 seconds or less, considering that the bonus from the performance is instantaneous instead of kicking in when the speech is actually over and its inspiring meaning is made obvious.
The speech could turn out like a complete non-sequitur... Yeah, I agree, it's silly.
Talking is a free action. :smallbiggrin:

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 09:16 AM
The problem with almost all of these, is that they are great: OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.

Music at the gym, great example - NOT COMBAT. If I am fighting for my life, for the mutual survival of my group, and one guy is hanging back playing music (irregardless of how awesome it is) I am not going to be motivated, I am going to be pissed. I am going to yell and curse him out for him to make himself useful, and if I have to iwill snatch away his instrument and smash it so he will use his sword instead. This isn't weightlifting, this isn't running, this is me engaged in a close up struggle for survival with another creature whose guts just got all over my hands and feet from disemboweling it. This is COMBAT.


I even think the coach or military speech thing is good, but then its not a bard. Yeah sure, mechanically you are a bard - but the fluff you have reflavored to something else entirely, which is basically a warlord/commander. Something which in terms of fluff makes more sense (not speaking to martial healing let's leave that alone.)

I would almost say you could have Perform: (Cadence), but even then I don't know about in combat - but maybe. The battle hymn one maybe, if the whole group were religious. But no matter how you dice it, a guy in the middle of a fight playing the lute and singing or playing a violin or whatever while people around him are killing each other, really just makes me think of Nero playing his instrument while Rome burns - which could be awesome if that's what you are going for, but otherwise you just seem silly, insane, or incompetent.

EDIT: I should mention that bard is my favorite class in many games, but I hate the in combat class feature of bardic music, love it out of combat.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-08-22, 10:29 AM
Hey, if that violinist is making me hit harder, helping me to shake off nasty spells, and otherwise making me better, they are pulling their weight, even if I can't see it.

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 10:57 AM
Hey, if that violinist is making me hit harder, helping me to shake off nasty spells, and otherwise making me better, they are pulling their weight, even if I can't see it.

Outside of handwaving that its magic music (which is fine) then it IS silly, that's all my point is. Just give me a spell that does whatever the effect is is, and let bards use their performances as an additional means of casting said spell, for out of combat uses even make that be the ONLY way to cast the spell/use the ability - similar to the AD&D elven spellsinger if memory serves. Captures the flavor of the class well, without the ensuing nonsense (imo) that is involved in imagining someone playing bagpipes while his companions are fighting for their lives.

Forgive the different time period being referenced, but if I am in a firefight or clearing a house I want you manning a weapon - not chanting/singing/wisecracking to make everyone else better at their job, we have someone for that - the squad leader, who is giving commands, directions, and organizing the three main war fighting functions: shoot, move, communicate. That's why I said commander/warlord makes more sense, because that IS the coach/leader.

To clarify this is all from an in universe perspective. From an OOC standpoint, I think the the buffs and stuff the bard brings are awesome. I even like the fluff and flavor of the class: I'm a musician (perform), I'm in the military (combat ability), and like many gamers I love reading about many varied topics for the purpose of self edification (bardic knowledge). But I do honestly feel that no matter how you style it, if you are playing a game with any amount of grit in it the bard playing his lute and singing his companions to victory is silly. If I was reading a book that had a bard in it styled that way I'd roll my eyes every time he did it. I much prefer the idea of bardic music as an out of combat effect, or as just alternate components for spell casting - preferably both.

Anyway just my 2cp, and I apologize if my tone seems rude or gruff, I come across that way sometimes.

The Insanity
2014-08-22, 12:45 PM
Outside of handwaving that its magic music (which is fine) then it IS silly, that's all my point is.
It isn't to a lot of people, so that's not a fact, but just your opinion. My opinion is that it's silly only when you make it to be silly. That's all.

Sartharina
2014-08-22, 12:55 PM
Outside of handwaving that its magic music (which is fine) then it IS silly, that's all my point is.Want a real-world example of Inspire Courage/Heroism/etc? Bill Millin. Of course, the germans were unaware of the morale boost he provided, and declined shooting him because either they thought he was a harmless idiot, or they weren't unaware, but neither were they weren't ruthlessly pragmatic enough to shoot an unarmed and defenseless man (Even if he's in a combat zone on the enemy side).

As for Inspire Competence - there's a reason a lot of workplaces have music. I know I'd never be able to get through my primary job without my MP3 player and its mix of hit songs from 1930-2014.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-08-22, 01:01 PM
I feel like this entire discussion is like something out of a movie. :smallbiggrin: The grizzled fighter who gets mad at the bard for "not pulling his weight", but who eventually comes to value and cherish the role of every party member.

If you asked me, I'd have mad respect for the person who's spending all their effort on the morale music while there's pointy steel and arrows on the battlefield that could kill them.

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 01:16 PM
Want a real-world example of Inspire Courage/Heroism/etc? Bill Millin. Of course, the germans were unaware of the morale boost he provided, and declined shooting him because either they thought he was a harmless idiot, or they weren't unaware, but neither were they weren't ruthlessly pragmatic enough to shoot an unarmed and defenseless man (Even if he's in a combat zone on the enemy side).

As for Inspire Competence - there's a reason a lot of workplaces have music. I know I'd never be able to get through my primary job without my MP3 player and its mix of hit songs from 1930-2014.

Actually, a 30 second glance at the wikipedia entry (hardly an authoritative source I know) indicates the Germans didn't shoot him, beccuse they thought he was CRAZY. Also, an intrinsically Evil creature (the kind that exists in any alignment using system) would have so such compunctions I'm sure.

Also, big difference between the workplace and combat is, you know, the very real threat of death and having to kill someone. Plus I said I like the outside of combat stuff.

ALSO:
sil·ly/ˈsilē/
adjective
having or showing a lack of common sense or judgment; absurd and foolish.

So yeah...those Germans thought it was silly too.

Sartharina
2014-08-22, 01:18 PM
I switched from Inspire Courage to Inspire Competence for the workplace example.

As for Inspire Courage - The germans thought it was silly - but you'll notice that the Allies referred to how it kept morale high. Morale is significant in combat.

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 01:45 PM
It isn't to a lot of people, so that's not a fact, but just your opinion. My opinion is that it's silly only when you make it to be silly. That's all.

If you can find me a credible source of a small unit combatant citing that they would rather have somebody doing something like this as opposed to actual helping win the engagement, then I'll accept it as an opinion. Note I am saying small unit, a group of 13 or less people actively engaged in the process of killing or defending themselves. Not a large scale conflict, or even a small one back in camp. That is what the Inspire Courage ability demonstrates - me choosing not to actively defend myself or defeat the foe in my immediate vicinity to instead sing my allies to fight better. I'm confident you won't find anything meeting that criteria. It only makes sense if the ability is magic, and the whole in game universe KNOWS it is magic.


I feel like this entire discussion is like something out of a movie. :smallbiggrin: The grizzled fighter who gets mad at the bard for "not pulling his weight", but who eventually comes to value and cherish the role of every party member.

If you asked me, I'd have mad respect for the person who's spending all their effort on the morale music while there's pointy steel and arrows on the battlefield that could kill them.

There are people in the modern military who are non-combatants that operate on the battlefield. Medics and chaplains. Medics in the current conflict are armed with M4s, M16s, and M9s because our enemies don't follow our Laws of Armed Conflict, end in spcial operations units they recieve follow on training that makes them a combatant also. Nobody thinks the Chaplain's place is in a firefight, and if he should find himself in one - there is a person who's dedicated job is to keep him alive.


I switched from Inspire Courage to Inspire Competence for the workplace example.

As for Inspire Courage - The germans thought it was silly - but you'll notice that the Allies referred to how it kept morale high. Morale is significant in combat.

Ah my apologies, I missed the switch of abilities there. I like everything about the bard other than inspire courage - which i like mechanically.

Morale IS important. And in the duration of a firefight, that morale is going to come from leadership and peers, not a guy playing music. The music would be great back in camp, not in the fight. That said. In "On Killing" Grossman references the non-firing rate of soldiers from WW2 vs. Vietnam. 15% firing rate compared to a 95% rate in Vietnam using modern training techniques. So there may have been all kinds of people not actively engaging their weapons aside from the guy playing his pipes - maybe I'm being too hard on him, but I say with great certainty that if somebody pulled that these days, their squad is going to have some wall to wall counseling with him back at the FOB. Also, in an old school march across the field style war where only a portion of the army is actively engaged at any time, I can see justification for Inspire Courage - but the small unit style combat of an adventuring party strikes me as being much more analgous with a squad level or below engagement.

Again, it makes more sense as a warlord/commander styled character than a bard. I'd rather see the bard as is, with all his music effects as spells that he can cast with his performance as components.

Sartharina
2014-08-22, 02:01 PM
Why do they have to be spells (Competing with scarce spell slots) instead of the flexible, innate supernatural performances (on their own schedule) that he normally gets.

And, it depends on the role of the guy in a fight in a modern interpretation. A big problem is that most modern combat is based around stealth and aural awareness, and you don't want someone broadcasting your position, or obscuring audio clues.'

And morale comes just as much if not more from a current musical performance than speeches or leadership, which can be forgotten in the heat of a battle. The epic guitar riffs in the background driving you on aren't as forgettable or dismissable.

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 02:07 PM
Why do they have to be spells (Competing with scarce spell slots) instead of the flexible, innate supernatural performances (on their own schedule) that he normally gets.

And, it depends on the role of the guy in a fight in a modern interpretation. A big problem is that most modern combat is based around stealth and aural awareness, and you don't want someone broadcasting your position, or obscuring audio clues.'

And morale comes just as much if not more from a current musical performance than speeches or leadership, which can be forgotten in the heat of a battle. The epic guitar riffs in the background driving you on aren't as forgettable or dismissable.

Small unit combat has always been based around stealth. And again we aren't talking about something that happened BEFORE combat, we are talking about something happening DURING combat.

I'd be cool with them being SU abilites, just let me cast them by means other than playing my instrument in the middle of a melee battle.

I honestly don't think you can cast Inspire Courage mid melee as being anything other than ludicrous short of saying "magic".

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-08-22, 02:10 PM
It's D&D, not modern warfare. There is no such thing as a D&D firefight.

Sartharina
2014-08-22, 02:15 PM
Small unit combat has always been based around stealth. And again we aren't talking about something that happened BEFORE combat, we are talking about something happening DURING combat.Modern combat relies heavily on deception and concealment during the battle. This does not hold up in melee combat.


I honestly don't think you can cast Inspire Courage mid melee as being anything other than ludicrous short of saying "magic".I disagree, though I wish Bards could bring an entire Orchestra and Choir with them to start up the combat music. Music sets the mood and changes the context of a battle. You have to be careful to not play too heroic of music to prevent your team from going from "Assertive and aggressive" to "Reckless", though.

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 02:18 PM
It's D&D, not modern warfare. There is no such thing as a D&D firefight.

You're right, this is even worse! LOL. My buddy is being stabbed at 10 feet from me, and this guy is in my face with a club trying to smash my skull and I'm playing the flute or reciting poetry instead of defending myself! Also, for the record I'm only referencing modern warfare as a reference point for the small unit, which is what an adventuring party is. The individual styles of combat don't matter, unless your manning a triple 6 in an arty unit a mile away in which case bring the bard and we'll takes shots in-between 155 rounds.

Look I like bard, but I don't see how anybody can look at this objectively and not see that in terms of the practicality of combat its foolish. That's why bard isn't a place on the fire team or squad, but there's a place in the adventuring party for him. Becuase in THAT UNIVERSE it makes sense, not ours. Hence my response to the OP.


Modern combat relies heavily on deception and concealment during the battle. This does not hold up in melee combat.

I disagree, though I wish Bards could bring an entire Orchestra and Choir with them to start up the combat music. Music sets the mood and changes the context of a battle. You have to be careful to not play too heroic of music to prevent your team from going from "Assertive and aggressive" to "Reckless", though.

Well regarding you're first point, allow me to present - the ambush. Stealth plays a part, even in SMALL unit melee you want to strike fast, and where your enemy does not expect it. This is not a modern concept. Also, to reference both this and carpe's point, most MOUT (house clearing) engagements take place very close up, to sometimes include melee.

You know the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the German is slowly stabbing the American Soldier near the end, and his buddy is standing outside in the hall and doesn't help as his team mate dies? Make that guy in the hall play Eye of the Tiger instead, and tell me you wouldn't rather have that guy jump on the German, or put his bayonet into the base of the Germans skull.

In a world where the magic isn't understood to be magic (spells or otherwise) it doesn't make sense. Hence in response to the OP:

Mechanically, I actually kind of like bards. Tossing out party-wide buffs, hitting things a reasonable amount of the time, having enough skill points to pull off some interesting actions, and casting the odd (usually unorthodox) spell all appeals to me. The problem is that, despite having what I consider to be a fairly generous suspension of disbelief, I have trouble justifying going around singing or shouting stories or what have you. Like, I get the impression the bard would be a full BAB class if it would stop reciting poetry and focus on stabbing stuff. I'd be sitting that guy down after every fight and explaining to him how playing the guitar is not an activity that should be concurrent with watching your friends being chewed on my dragons.

In some settings, you can magic it away. "Oh, in our setting, certain people or songs are magical, so bards are really just casting a weird sort of spell when they sing." Or maybe he's just evoking the power of 4th wall breaking awesome narrative voice overs. Works for me! Problem is, my group has taken to playing in established settings of late (specifically Pathfinder's Gollarion), and to my knowledge, bards who sing are just, literally, singing. Or reciting poetry. Or dancing. Dancing is arguably even worse. Now he's not even encouraging people with a soundtrack. He's distracting them enough for them to take note of his dance moves.

How do you normally rationalize bardic performance in your games?

In a game where you treat the real violence of killing and death seriously, or just take the game as serious or gritty, I do not see a reason to not view bardic music EXACTLY as the OP does, unless you make it magic, or if you restyle it as a warlord type class. Again we disagree, and that's fine, but I'm not hearing any real justification other than I disagree. Which is fine, if you like the violinist swordfight that's cool, but if you are going for "gritty" then yeah its silly, and based off the OP - I daresay that he's closer to my camp. That said - I like bards the most of every class, so if you have a great example I'd love to hear it so I can use it.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-08-22, 02:23 PM
Not worse, because now the bard doesn't have to worry about getting under cover or facing stray bullets. And if someone's about to smash their face, that's because nobody stopped them from getting there. That said, getting your skull smashed isn't that bad, all that happens is you lose a few hitpoints. :smalltongue:

It's akin to saying that it's foolish for the wizard to be waggling his fingers around when someone is stabbing him in the gut. Oh, and silly wizard for not wearing armor! :smallbiggrin:

The point to a bard is that they're part of a team. Instead of focusing on self-defense, they're playing their music to give their allies the strength to fight. All they have to do is to keep playing, and their allies will win the day. They're prioritizing the success of the group over their own survival.

I have no quarrel with that.

(Also, I'd say that a bard is indeed roughly equivalent to a combat medic. Does a combat medic actively start shooting people when they're performing field medicine? Not at all. Is a bard prohibited from carrying weapons? Of course not.)

Sartharina
2014-08-22, 02:29 PM
You're right, this is even worse! LOL. My buddy is being stabbed at 10 feet from me, and this guy is in my face with a club trying to smash my skull and I'm playing the flute or reciting poetry instead of defending myself!You are still defending yourself, and I dunno any bards that recite poetry, but flute music can be pretty badass in its own right. And no, your buddy's NOT being stabbed 10 feet from you - He's stabbing someone else. He might take a few cuts and scrapes, but the battle music you're playing is keeping the fight in a "We're badasses kicking ass and taking names" context, instead of "We're a bunch of desperate survivalists being torn apart by an insurmountable foe!"

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 03:27 PM
I think the problem here is that I keep referring to a "gritty" or "realistic" game. Getting stabbed isn't "losing a few hp" its getting stabbed. And there is a huge difference between playing an instrument and treating a sucking chest wound, which actually the bard can do with a spell.

Also it is worse because in a firefight I can get behind cover and stay there playing in relative safety while my team fights.

In some games the bard may not seem silly, but I doubt those games are games that treat death and violence with gravity. But then my game group is all veterans or active duty. My players aren't playing anything close to murderhobos and I run a gritty game. Not that I know anything about you all, so please don't take that as me implying anything about you. But again if you can give an example of a non magic based inspire courage that works in a gritty game then share it with me.

Sartharina
2014-08-22, 03:40 PM
I think the problem here is that I keep referring to a "gritty" or "realistic" game. Getting stabbed isn't "losing a few hp" its getting stabbed. And there is a huge difference between playing an instrument and treating a sucking chest wound, which actually the bard can do with a spell. Getting stabbed isn't serious (In the battle - it may prove lethal later) if you keep your spirits and morale high, and maintain the right emotional state. The human body can do a lot of wierd stuff in battle, and Hit Points/Critical Existence failure can be surprisingly accurate model of a real fight and the human body to ignore pain and disability.

Garimeth
2014-08-22, 04:02 PM
Getting stabbed isn't serious (In the battle - it may prove lethal later) if you keep your spirits and morale high, and maintain the right emotional state. The human body can do a lot of wierd stuff in battle, and Hit Points/Critical Existence failure can be surprisingly accurate model of a real fight and the human body to ignore pain and disability.

We aren't talking about the vailidty of the HP model. Your character doesn't know how much HP he has, he just knows he doesn't want to get stabbed, because he might die, or lose a limb or finger, and it hurts.

And if the person with the knife knows what he is doing unless you recieve urgent care you will either die or suffer serious long term injuries potentially for the rest of your life.

But I digress you and I obviously play a different style of game, and apparently have vastly different views of combat, violence, and killing. I'll ask again, if you have an example of inspire courage that doesn't seem out of place in a game where combat and violence are serious I.e. a "gritty" game. Please share. Because at this point we are just arguing, and you aren't going to convince me my training and real life experiences aren't valid, and I doubt I'm going to change your mind either. :-)

EDIT: By the way don't take that as a snide comment either. I don't believe in badwrongfun. :)

Thrudd
2014-08-22, 04:50 PM
I think the problem here is that I keep referring to a "gritty" or "realistic" game. Getting stabbed isn't "losing a few hp" its getting stabbed. And there is a huge difference between playing an instrument and treating a sucking chest wound, which actually the bard can do with a spell.

Also it is worse because in a firefight I can get behind cover and stay there playing in relative safety while my team fights.

In some games the bard may not seem silly, but I doubt those games are games that treat death and violence with gravity. But then my game group is all veterans or active duty. My players aren't playing anything close to murderhobos and I run a gritty game. Not that I know anything about you all, so please don't take that as me implying anything about you. But again if you can give an example of a non magic based inspire courage that works in a gritty game then share it with me.

War Chants, Battle Hymns. Military units have slogans, battle cries, marching chants, etc. I would fluff the battle courage ability less as instrumental and more as singing. Imagine the bard teaching his compatriots such a song, or inventing one for them. Grim faced, as they go into battle, the bard strikes up the hymn. The others may join in with a battle cry or chorus, and enter the fray. The bard continues singing his death song as he slays his enemies, inspiring his allies and unnerving his enemies. For the charming and calming music abilities, the instrument makes sense, but might be accompanied by singing, too.

CombatOwl
2014-08-23, 08:45 AM
Actually, I've already discovered the silliest one, it's Perform (Glass Harmonica).

For D20 Modern: Perform (Theramin)

Sartharina
2014-08-23, 12:40 PM
We aren't talking about the vailidty of the HP model. Your character doesn't know how much HP he has, he just knows he doesn't want to get stabbed, because he might die, or lose a limb or finger, and it hurts.The music sort of changes this, by keeping the person in a mental state of NOT caring that he takes a wound - it keeps him in a mental 'zone' dismissing him as a fragile object with stress, fatigue, pain, and injury, and focused on the battle as being an action and force. He's not afraid of being stabbed - but he's not going to give his enemies the chance to stab him.

As for the performer himself - he's disciplined to keep playing while still defending himself, because his performance is a force multiplier for his allies. The song keeps them from giving into despair from being wounded or outnumbbered/outgunned. Without the morale of his music, the party goes from Badass Heroes to Hapless Redshirts.


And if the person with the knife knows what he is doing unless you recieve urgent care you will either die or suffer serious long term injuries potentially for the rest of your life.But that doesn't matter until after the battle.

Enixon
2014-08-23, 01:48 PM
Honestly I don't think it's a hand wave to say "the bard's music is magic" when that's exactly what it is. He's not wasting time playing silly songs while everyone else is fighting, he's focusing mystic power and channeling it into his allies making them stronger. The fighter that says the bard isn't pulling his weight because he's singing in battle is as silly as the one saying that the wizard isn't pulling his weight because he's waving his hands around and muttering gibberish in battle.

Garimeth
2014-08-23, 01:50 PM
War Chants, Battle Hymns. Military units have slogans, battle cries, marching chants, etc. I would fluff the battle courage ability less as instrumental and more as singing. Imagine the bard teaching his compatriots such a song, or inventing one for them. Grim faced, as they go into battle, the bard strikes up the hymn. The others may join in with a battle cry or chorus, and enter the fray. The bard continues singing his death song as he slays his enemies, inspiring his allies and unnerving his enemies. For the charming and calming music abilities, the instrument makes sense, but might be accompanied by singing, too.

I rather like the idea of him as a skaldic warrior singing his enemies' dirge. Nicely done!

Don't suppose you got anything for the more stereotypical bard do you?

Garimeth
2014-08-23, 01:53 PM
Honestly I don't think it's a hand wave to say "the bard's music is magic" when that's exactly what it is. He's not wasting time playing silly songs while everyone else is fighting, he's focusing mystic power and channeling it into his allies making them stronger. The fighter that says the bard isn't pulling his weight because he's singing in battle is as silly as the one saying that the wizard isn't pulling his weight because he's waving his hands around and muttering gibberish in battle.

Enemies being lit on fire quickly will change his mind. Lol. Again, WE know the bard is pulling his weight, but unless its explicitly understood in character that what the bard is doing is more than strumming some chords, then yeah I do think the in universe opinion would be the same as an out of universe one.

Also Sartharina, I can't help but feel that if you were that person being held down and stabbed to death then you'd rather have him physically help you than play Eye of the Tiger. I know I would!

Bottom line unless its explicitly understood in universe that this guy's music has POWER as opposed to just being good music it seems silly, though I'll grant an exception for Thrudd's skaldic badass. Actually I will probably make a character like that now.

Enixon
2014-08-23, 02:09 PM
Enemies being lit on fire quickly will change his mind. Lol. Again, WE know the bard is pulling his weight, but unless its explicitly understood in character that what the bard is doing is more than strumming some chords, then yeah I do think the in universe opinion would be the same as an out of universe one.

See that's it too, ALL of the bard's spells are performance based, that's why they can't use Silent Spell, so not only do his songs make people fight better they also heal wounds
, make people turn invisible, summon monsters, and create miniature sonic booms. So I figure it'd be no different in their mind than other buffing spells, unless the fighter also thinks the wizard and cleric are also just wasting time when they stop and wave their hands around to cast bless or bull's strength.

Sartharina
2014-08-23, 02:28 PM
Enemies being lit on fire quickly will change his mind. Lol. Again, WE know the bard is pulling his weight, but unless its explicitly understood in character that what the bard is doing is more than strumming some chords, then yeah I do think the in universe opinion would be the same as an out of universe one.It's VERY obvious that the bard's music (Which they need to channel their magic - they are NOT sorcerers!) has magic effect.


Also Sartharina, I can't help but feel that if you were that person being held down and stabbed to death then you'd rather have him physically help you than play Eye of the Tiger. I know I would!Except, while Eye of the Tiger is playing:
1. You're not getting held down and stabbed, because you're fighting too well
2. Even if you do, the song gives you the inspirational strength to throw off your attacker and get back on your feet, just a man with a will to survive!
3. The bard lacks the strength to throw him off, and is likely to get killed in the process of turning his back to other opponents to get the guy off you. By instead giving you the strength to throw off your enemy alone (And ALSO increasing the strength of your other allies to keep up the fight), your fighting force is more effective.
4. By stopping singing to pull the guy off you, it throws the rest of your team off rhythm, and it starts getting overwhelmed. While the bard's trying to get Big Ugly off you, the loss of inspiration turns the fight between your other ally and another three monsters against the Ally, and he goes from being a triumphant god of war beating down seemingly-impossible odds with ease to an overwhelmed soldier taking on more than he can handle. Congratulations - Because the Bard stopped doing his job to help you with a job you could do on your own, the party just TPK'd. Had he kept playing Eye of the Tiger, you would have lasted in the grapple long enough to either break it yourself, or let your Ally finish off the three guys on him and get the guy off you. The important part here being that everyone should be doing their job.

I rather like the idea of him as a skaldic warrior singing his enemies' dirge. Nicely done!

Don't suppose you got anything for the more stereotypical bard do you?It's the exact same concept, but merely a different culture. Unless, of course, by 'stereotypical bard' you mean someone who plays love songs on the lute during battle, which it's not. He can still play the lute, though... but the songs he selects for courage resonate with his audience, which likely aren't Viking Warriors (if they are, he wants to sing and chant Viking Epics). In a gang war between a band of Country Rednecks and Inner-city Thugs, the Redneck gang's Bard would probably select a song like Toby Keith's "Beer for My Horses", while the Inner City Thug bard might select something like Trick Daddy's "Let's Go!" - either trying to play the other team's song would just piss off and confuse their team.

Garimeth
2014-08-23, 04:13 PM
Lol. Sar, we are talking across one another and I don't think we are talking about the same thing. You've already decided that the music IS magic, which the OP was asking for other ways and I said outside of that it is silly, because in real life or in game with mundane music the song would not do all the things you just said. Inspire Courage does because we are agreeing its magic, and if its NOT magic, its silly. Thats my point.

But if you disagree with that and think it makes sense when its not magic I'll just agree to disagree.

EDIT: To be clear even Thrudd's example does not justify the huge bonuses of Inspire Courage in my opinion, unless it is magic - it simply succeeds in portaying it as badass instead of silly - which was the point of both me and the OP.

Jay R
2014-08-24, 08:38 AM
Lol. Sar, we are talking across one another and I don't think we are talking about the same thing. You've already decided that the music IS magic, which the OP was asking for other ways and I said outside of that it is silly, because in real life or in game with mundane music the song would not do all the things you just said. Inspire Courage does because we are agreeing its magic, and if its NOT magic, its silly. Thats my point.

The problem with this logic is that in one real-life example, it's not true. Scottish war units had bagpipers playing during the battle. Technically, they are just playing some (discordant) chords, but it helped with the Scots' morale and the weirdness of it would often discomfit their enemies. And no Scottish warriors, as far as I know, said that the bagpipers weren't pulling their weight.

Garimeth
2014-08-24, 09:46 AM
The problem with this logic is that in one real-life example, it's not true. Scottish war units had bagpipers playing during the battle. Technically, they are just playing some (discordant) chords, but it helped with the Scots' morale and the weirdness of it would often discomfit their enemies. And no Scottish warriors, as far as I know, said that the bagpipers weren't pulling their weight.

I'm fairly certain that there were people there who thought exactly that, we just don't have them on record saying it, BUT that doesn't really matter, since I already said in mass combat it makes sense - I'm specifically talking about an adventuring party sized group. Which is why I keep referring to building clearing in a rifle squad - its close quarters, everybody matters, and its 13 people. Also its what I'm most familiar with. A more analogous example would be somebody clearing the building while singing the Star Spangled Banner, or a running cadence.

I doubt the Scottish used their bagpipes like that in raiding groups of 15 or less. But admittedly I have not researched it.

Prince Raven
2014-08-24, 10:13 AM
Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Scottish didn't channel magical energy through their bagpipes providing tangible benefits to the accuracy and damage of their weapons.

Jacob.Tyr
2014-08-24, 10:14 AM
The bard being a sub-par fighter is what makes it a bit silly, to me, to assume he is being inspirational by singing in combat. If, say, the squad I was in had someone with a reputation for being an unstoppable badass, who just so happened to whistle while killing people, I could see there being a huge boost to hearing him whistling during a fight. It lets you know that backup is nearby in what might be a confused mess otherwise, and that backup is in fact an unstoppable badass. Bards being bards, though, any morale boost from their singing would be from... knowing that a guy who isn't very good with his weapon is nearby singing to himself?

Alternatively, knowing that the bard singing can also throw in a flourish to his song that will magically heal the stab wound you suffered might get you to fight a little more aggressively, helping you get over the fear of people stabbing at you. So if you take the bards entire package, including magic that comes from a few bars of flourish in his music, it might make a bit of sense for non-magical singing to give you a morale boost.

I could see it being fine for a debuff, though. A special forces group breaking into your stronghold that includes some apparent nutjob one handing a flute while stabbing people would be pretty confusing and disconcerting.

Note: PF just released a Bard/Barbarian hybrid class, aptly named a "Skald", who has a SU ability to inspire rage in his allies. Worth checking out if you want a bard-like character fluffed around being a skald.

Sartharina
2014-08-24, 10:24 AM
Lol. Sar, we are talking across one another and I don't think we are talking about the same thing. You've already decided that the music IS magic, which the OP was asking for other ways and I said outside of that it is silly, because in real life or in game with mundane music the song would not do all the things you just said. Inspire Courage does because we are agreeing its magic, and if its NOT magic, its silly. Thats my point.

But if you disagree with that and think it makes sense when its not magic I'll just agree to disagree.No, you don't need the magic. The effect of the music is to keep morale high, and the fighters in a winner's mindset (Which can make them fight as well as three less-inspired men)


EDIT: To be clear even Thrudd's example does not justify the huge bonuses of Inspire Courage in my opinion, unless it is magic - it simply succeeds in portaying it as badass instead of silly - which was the point of both me and the OP.It's a morale bonus. The fighting capacity of someone who's riding high on the thrill of greatnss, and someone just a bad blow away from despair is huge. The music at the very least keeps the combatants in a "Winner's Mindset" critical to success in melee combat. Bullets, though, diminish the value of excellent morale because they're harder to defend against.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-24, 10:32 AM
No, you don't need the magic. The effect of the music is to keep morale high, and the fighters in a winner's mindset (Which can make them fight as well as three less-inspired men)

Cool, I didn't know that!
Source?

...

Whoops! I forgot you just made it up on the spot!
And even then, it's still not pertinent to the OP.

Garimeth
2014-08-24, 11:26 AM
No, you don't need the magic. The effect of the music is to keep morale high, and the fighters in a winner's mindset (Which can make them fight as well as three less-inspired men)

It's a morale bonus. The fighting capacity of someone who's riding high on the thrill of greatnss, and someone just a bad blow away from despair is huge. The music at the very least keeps the combatants in a "Winner's Mindset" critical to success in melee combat. Bullets, though, diminish the value of excellent morale because they're harder to defend against.

You are wrong. Bullets are great for morale, because I can shoot back from a position of relative safety and feel empowered even if I hit nothing. Second, the firearm is the great equalizer because you out weighing me by 100 pounds means nothing because you die to a double tap just as easily as I do. Lastly, the emotional and physical distance between me and my target greatly increases my likelihood of committing to a kill when using a firearm. This is why historically greated sized forces have broke before a bayonet charge because the fear of being atabbed or having to stab someone is so much greater than that of being shot. For my source see "On Killing" by LTC Grossman.

Thrudd
2014-08-24, 03:43 PM
I rather like the idea of him as a skaldic warrior singing his enemies' dirge. Nicely done!

Don't suppose you got anything for the more stereotypical bard do you?

Without magic I don't see a lute-like instrument (the stereotypical bard instrument) being capable of music loud or powerful enough to work during battle. I could see it happening before combat, accompanying an inspirational song (like "Rains of Castamere" for the Lannisters). Maybe if it's a magic lute, that can magically sound like an electric guitar, and the bard can play metal riffs :smallamused:

I don't see why a bard needs to be either one or the other, though. The skaldic singer can still have an instrument, too. He uses the lute when he's charming people or countersonging, he sings when he is inspiring courage during battle (because he's going to want a weapon in his hands instead of an instrument).


The bard being a sub-par fighter is what makes it a bit silly, to me, to assume he is being inspirational by singing in combat

The bard may not be as good a combatant as a fighter, but he/she is decent enough to join the fight and kill a couple orcs. It isn't necessary for the bard to do the most damage or be at the front of the line, just the fact that he's there, fighting with his compatriots, and still singing their song.

Sartharina
2014-08-24, 11:51 PM
Whoops! I forgot you just made it up on the spot!
And even then, it's still not pertinent to the OP.I exaggerated the effectiveness (It's probably closer to a 10-15% boost, maybe 20% in effectiveness, instead of 300% - but it's better to have 10 guys and a morale-booster than 11 normal guys)


You are wrong. Bullets are great for morale, because I can shoot back from a position of relative safety and feel empowered even if I hit nothing. Second, the firearm is the great equalizer because you out weighing me by 100 pounds means nothing because you die to a double tap just as easily as I do. Lastly, the emotional and physical distance between me and my target greatly increases my likelihood of committing to a kill when using a firearm. This is why historically greated sized forces have broke before a bayonet charge because the fear of being atabbed or having to stab someone is so much greater than that of being shot. For my source see "On Killing" by LTC Grossman.I should have clarified - Guns have diminished effect on the morale from music, to the point of possibly being a detriment (It's easier for the Bard to get killed - a dead singer's worse than no singer, and it obscures audio cues in a battle). In melee, however, the boost music provides helps people overcome their fear of having to stab someone or be stabbed. Guns provide enough morale on their own, and the greater alacrity and tenacity from higher morale are diminished by the fear of the other guy with a gun.

AMFV
2014-08-25, 01:43 AM
Well it's worth noting that most instances of combat music had to do with communicating marching orders and signaling, since voices don't actually carry that far on a battle field, but bugles can carry a goodly distance. Although watching Birth of a Nation (which if you can ignore the racism isn't too bad), which is notable in that it's the only war film that survives to this date that was made when there would have been Civil War survivors, and is likelier to therefore be accurate, even with buglers it was impossible chaotic. But the idea is that buglers and drummers signal the pacing and formations and such, which is where the music in war idea comes from.

Aedilred
2014-08-25, 05:30 AM
It's VERY obvious that the bard's music (Which they need to channel their magic - they are NOT sorcerers!) has magic effect.

Except, while Eye of the Tiger is playing:
1. You're not getting held down and stabbed, because you're fighting too well
OK, but, and I know this is impossible, what if it does happen...


2. Even if you do, the song gives you the inspirational strength to throw off your attacker and get back on your feet, just a man with a will to survive!
... and you can't?


3. The bard lacks the strength to throw him off, and is likely to get killed in the process of turning his back to other opponents to get the guy off you. By instead giving you the strength to throw off your enemy alone (And ALSO increasing the strength of your other allies to keep up the fight), your fighting force is more effective.
Oh, that's alright then.


4. By stopping singing to pull the guy off you, it throws the rest of your team off rhythm, and it starts getting overwhelmed. While the bard's trying to get Big Ugly off you, the loss of inspiration turns the fight between your other ally and another three monsters against the Ally, and he goes from being a triumphant god of war beating down seemingly-impossible odds with ease to an overwhelmed soldier taking on more than he can handle. Congratulations - Because the Bard stopped doing his job to help you with a job you could do on your own, the party just TPK'd. Had he kept playing Eye of the Tiger, you would have lasted in the grapple long enough to either break it yourself, or let your Ally finish off the three guys on him and get the guy off you. The important part here being that everyone should be doing their job.
No, not seeing it.

If you've been overpowered, and on the verge of being killed, and your team-mate is standing there watching this and singing rather than doing literally almost anything else, you're not going to think "oh well, that's ok, I guess he's fulfilling his group role accurately even if it results in my dying, and maybe if he stops doing this thing that's already proven ineffective in this instance things will get even worse in some way that's not really relevant to me right now, so he' doing the right thing really". You're more likely to think "What the hell are you doing? Get this thing off me, you jerk!"

Now if you somehow survive because you get lucky or the wizard blasts him or someone else manages to drag the guy off you, that lingering mistrust of the bard - the suspicion that he's not pulling his weight, that he's an idiot, that he's a coward, or that he's just downright useless, isn't going to go away entirely, even if someone sits you down and talks you through the reasoning behind his doing what he did.

In fact, even if you go through it with the party calculator and work out with strictly accurate (not eyeballed or arbitrary) probabilities that it was better overall for him to keep playing than to help you directly, I think there's going to be a lingering suspicion of him, because what kind of cold-blooded psychopath watches their friend get pummelled into the floor and works out on the spot that he'll be more help singing than running over and trying to help more directly? And if singing is really the best thing he can do to help, and in this situation where it actually mattered it didn't apparently help at all, what's the point in him anyway?

Now, assuming that your regular D&D party on a given active adventure, dungeoncrawl, whatever, is facing a couple of level-appropriate encounters a day, you're probably looking at, on average, every party member getting that sort of beatdown about once a week. Pretty soon, they're all going to be feeling like our hero above. By this point, the rest of the party is going to be questioning why they're giving the bard a share of the loot, when he doesn't really do anything, and, when it comes to the bard's turn to be attacked and nearly killed, are you going to save him, or go "sorry dude, but I've worked out I'm more effective doing <this other thing>"? You're certainly much less likely to risk your life for him.


I exaggerated the effectiveness (It's probably closer to a 10-15% boost, maybe 20% in effectiveness, instead of 300% - but it's better to have 10 guys and a morale-booster than 11 normal guys)
Again though these are completely arbitrary numbers, with nothing to support them beyond say-so.

Garimeth
2014-08-25, 07:32 AM
Without magic I don't see a lute-like instrument (the stereotypical bard instrument) being capable of music loud or powerful enough to work during battle. I could see it happening before combat, accompanying an inspirational song (like "Rains of Castamere" for the Lannisters). Maybe if it's a magic lute, that can magically sound like an electric guitar, and the bard can play metal riffs :smallamused:

I don't see why a bard needs to be either one or the other, though. The skaldic singer can still have an instrument, too. He uses the lute when he's charming people or countersonging, he sings when he is inspiring courage during battle (because he's going to want a weapon in his hands instead of an instrument).



The bard may not be as good a combatant as a fighter, but he/she is decent enough to join the fight and kill a couple orcs. It isn't necessary for the bard to do the most damage or be at the front of the line, just the fact that he's there, fighting with his compatriots, and still singing their song.

Bah, sry I didn't necessarily mean the instrument, I agree singing is the only way to go in combat. I more meant the personality type and character depiction. The typical bard doesn't seem to pull off what you descruibed, though I could maybe see insane guy stabbing people while whistling a merry tune.


I exaggerated the effectiveness (It's probably closer to a 10-15% boost, maybe 20% in effectiveness, instead of 300% - but it's better to have 10 guys and a morale-booster than 11 normal guys)

I should have clarified - Guns have diminished effect on the morale from music, to the point of possibly being a detriment (It's easier for the Bard to get killed - a dead singer's worse than no singer, and it obscures audio cues in a battle). In melee, however, the boost music provides helps people overcome their fear of having to stab someone or be stabbed. Guns provide enough morale on their own, and the greater alacrity and tenacity from higher morale are diminished by the fear of the other guy with a gun.

You should just stop acting like you know anything about this, because its apparent you don't. You can't posit your explanations about the affect of music on morale in combat, unless you have a source to cite - no matter how you try to frame your made up numbers. I doubt there has been a study about its effects on LETHAL combat, and modern sport martial arts - no matter how violent, don't cut it - because you don't DIE when you lose.

You have this gaming fantasy about combat that does not mesh with the reality of it. You know how many morale boosters the Marine Corps takes with them when they deploy an infantry battalion? ONE, the CHAPLAIN, not a musician. And that's for 900 people. You know what is the best thing to have when you have 10 guys is? One more guy that is fighting, and leading/coordinating the other guys - a squadleader.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-25, 08:09 AM
I exaggerated the effectiveness (It's probably closer to a 10-15% boost, maybe 20% in effectiveness, instead of 300% - but it's better to have 10 guys and a morale-booster than 11 normal guys)

I think there is less than a 2% of accuracy in the 100% of the statistics you completely made up. Please stop doing that, it's embarassing.

Prince Raven
2014-08-25, 10:01 AM
I'd like to point out that casting Fireball involves chanting silly words while throwing bat poo at the enemy. Why is it that Bardic Performance is the thing being called silly again?

Bluydee
2014-08-25, 10:05 AM
Simple solution: don't pick Perform(Music). Use perform(comedy), and while fighting you can start cracking jokes!

But really, morale is one of the most important things in fighting. Many soldiers are shown to use ipods and listen to music while on the battlefield, and one of my closest friends always listened to the cheers theme song while in the military. As for why anyone cares about the bard, is that many heroes want fame, and bringing along a musician, no matter how useless, will eventually spread stories about your prowess and greatness.

Also, bonus image.
http://premiersages.free.fr/Arken%27al/bardesauvage.jpg

Jacob.Tyr
2014-08-25, 11:15 AM
But really, morale is one of the most important things in fighting. Many soldiers are shown to use ipods and listen to music while on the battlefield, and one of my closest friends always listened to the cheers theme song while in the military. As for why anyone cares about the bard, is that many heroes want fame, and bringing along a musician, no matter how useless, will eventually spread stories about your prowess and greatness.

I can see this working for many people, hearing the bard improvising a song about how glorious you were while you're actively doing said glorious things. If you're the type who cares more about glory, then just knowing that there is a guy actively composing a song about the fight you're in might make you act with less caution, make you less likely to retreat, and perhaps even be okay with dying just knowing that it will be one hell of a story.

Thinking about it in this regard, the bard singing about his party members' exploits, I could see that as a mundane morale boost. Thinking about how great you are because someone is actively singing/composing a song about how great you are is probably pretty damned good for the ego...

The Insanity
2014-08-25, 12:05 PM
Simple solution: don't pick Perform(Music). Use perform(comedy), and while fighting you can start cracking jokes!
Spiderman is a Bard!

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-08-25, 12:26 PM
He's a terrible bard, because he never has allies to buff. :smalltongue:

More seriously, Spidey is actually his own bard. He rattles off the one-liners to keep himself together, and (secondarily) to debuff opponents and infuriate them.

Garimeth
2014-08-25, 12:39 PM
I'd like to point out that casting Fireball involves chanting silly words while throwing bat poo at the enemy. Why is it that Bardic Performance is the thing being called silly again?

Well mostly due to the resulting explosion. See several previous posts explaining how magic bardic music can make sense.



But really, morale is one of the most important things in fighting. Many soldiers are shown to use ipods and listen to music while on the battlefield, and one of my closest friends always listened to the cheers theme song while in the military.

I can't speak for the Army, but a Marine on a foot patrol listening to an IPOD will get reamed by his fire team. Guys aren't mid firefight listening to ipods, and they definitely aren't doing it while clearing a building - which is far more similar to a melee adventurer's group. Back in camp, sure, mounted patrol while waiting for contact, sure, sitting in an OP... "maybe" if they are not being professional, but woe be unto them if they get caught, and hopefully its not by the enemy.

Second, the knowledge that a story is going to be made about your actions may provide a level of motivation, because you don't want to be seen as weak or cowardly. Interesting fact, one of several reason that snipers, machine guns, and artillery are more efficient, is because of the group accountability provided by squad based weaponry (in the sniper's case his spotter). This is only one of several reasons, so please nobody take it as my saying it is the only reason. The source for this is... you guessed it: "On Killing" by LtCol Grossman.

I mean ultimately this is people making conjecture about things they have never experienced or trained for that disagrees with alot of relevant professional source material that is highly regarded in the field actually being discussed. You're better off looking for historical justification than modern day justification.


As for why anyone cares about the bard, is that many heroes want fame, and bringing along a musician, no matter how useless, will eventually spread stories about your prowess and greatness.

Side note, while this works great for the adventurer stereotype, most servicemembers don't want to talk about their valor awards, and in many cases don't believe they deserve them.

The Insanity
2014-08-25, 12:48 PM
He's a terrible bard, because he never has allies to buff. :smalltongue:

More seriously, Spidey is actually his own bard. He rattles off the one-liners to keep himself together, and (secondarily) to debuff opponents and infuriate them.
He uses an archetype. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer)

AMFV
2014-08-25, 01:05 PM
Second, the knowledge that a story is going to be made about your actions may provide a level of motivation, because you don't want to be seen as weak or cowardly. Interesting fact, one of several reason that snipers, machine guns, and artillery are more efficient, is because of the group accountability provided by squad based weaponry (in the sniper's case his spotter). This is only one of several reasons, so please nobody take it as my saying it is the only reason. The source for this is... you guessed it: "On Killing" by LtCol Grossman.

I mean ultimately this is people making conjecture about things they have never experienced or trained for that disagrees with alot of relevant professional source material that is highly regarded in the field actually being discussed. You're better off looking for historical justification than modern day justification.

I wouldn't take an anything from "On Killing" as anything better than that. He after all, never had a combat deployment, and his only source was one that's highly questioned. Machine Guns aren't really more effective, they have a different purpose in the field. As does Artillery, arty doesn't even really have any visible effect, you aren't going to really see what you hit several miles away. I suspect that most people are willing to kill for various reasons, but I imagine being thought of as a coward isn't one of the bigger ones.

As far as the Bardic Music goes. We are assuming that it is not a known effect In-Universe. Bards clearly have a demonstrable effect, one that people would notice in training and on the battlefield. After all a five to ten percent shift is going to be very very noticible, so it's unlikely that Bardic performance wouldn't be common knowledge, since it can very easily turn the tide of a battle. People aren't just thinking about it in terms that we'd think about it in the real world, they know it's magic, and they know it works.

SiuiS
2014-08-25, 01:49 PM
Or dancing. Dancing is arguably even worse.

I think you should reassess that. (http://youtu.be/2hYlNO61ImA)

The honest to god key is buy-in. If you're that guy who's like, too cool for getting into things, yeah. It makes no sense. If you're that guy whose running through the battle-lines wild eyes and screaming and ripping your own chest with your nails and not feeling it, mocking and shouting like the gods had come to play, it's a different matter. When you get into it, this stuff works.


I find this thread interesting, as it runs completely opposite to my thinking of "how can I make my Bardic Performance as silly as possible?"

Making bards silly is the exact same process just taken slightly too far.

Or rolling really poorly. You haven't seen silly until you have a bad-ass bard who rolls a 3 on every single attempt to do anything ever. Much less awesome Viking, much more impromptu Monty python.


The problem with inspiring battle speeches is that they get kind of old if you do them every single time there's an encounter. Even fantasy roleplay can only handle so many "once more unto the breech" speeches in a given session.


You're kidding. You're... Kidding right?
Most fights are <20s long. What speech can you come up with that makes sense but wears out it's welcome?

You know what's a good, short battle speech? "Axes of the dwarves! The dwarves are upon you! YYYYEEEEEEAAAAAARRREEGH!"

Hell, make everyone into an ambush player. All fights are over as soon as the bard leaps up and screams "Fiana Fal".


For my part, the only types of bard that really work for me are either Bladedancer-types (inspiration through masterful combat-"dancing", which doesn't really mesh well with a mediocre BAB) and chanter/drumer-types, since these guys provide a battle rhythm of sorts.
Of course, for sillier games over-the-top power-hero-metal bards quoting Manowar and such are great fun :smallbiggrin:

Oh yeah, totally. It's "suboptimal", but getting a sturdy instrument and using it to fight with works wonders. Like the bad guitarist with an actual axe? Had one such bard a good few years ago, enemy charged and kicked his instrument out from under him, was a sitar/cello/guitar thing. Bard's response was a dex check to spin and plant the butt spike into the guy's face... And keep playing.

Cheesy but fun. :)



As far as the Bardic Music goes. We are assuming that it is not a known effect In-Universe. Bards clearly have a demonstrable effect, one that people would notice in training and on the battlefield. After all a five to ten percent shift is going to be very very noticible, so it's unlikely that Bardic performance wouldn't be common knowledge, since it can very easily turn the tide of a battle. People aren't just thinking about it in terms that we'd think about it in the real world, they know it's magic, and they know it works.

Plus there are those songs that are so electrifying they light your fists on fire. That's got to count for something.



Side note, while this works great for the adventurer stereotype, most servicemembers don't want to talk about their valor awards, and in many cases don't believe they deserve them.

Even the Romans noticed a difference between warriors and soldiers, mate. Which do you think modern professional soldiers would be?

Sartharina
2014-08-25, 01:54 PM
I can't speak for the Army, but a Marine on a foot patrol listening to an IPOD will get reamed by his fire team. Guys aren't mid firefight listening to ipods, and they definitely aren't doing it while clearing a building - which is far more similar to a melee adventurer's group. Back in camp, sure, mounted patrol while waiting for contact, sure, sitting in an OP... "maybe" if they are not being professional, but woe be unto them if they get caught, and hopefully its not by the enemy.I know this - the music is also a distraction, especially in modern combat. No amount of morale boost can offset the distraction, isolation, and oblivion of headphones+music. Even loudspeakers can interfere with coordination and communication that can be lethal in a gunfight (Do marines clear buildings with Axes, Shields, and Broadswords, or shotguns, assault rifles, and SMGs?)


Bah, sry I didn't necessarily mean the instrument, I agree singing is the only way to go in combat. I more meant the personality type and character depiction. The typical bard doesn't seem to pull off what you descruibed, though I could maybe see insane guy stabbing people while whistling a merry tune.The typical bard maintains his Bardic Music while fighting in D&D - it only takes a Standard Action to initiate (a quick breather to find the rhythm and tempo), and No Action to continue.


You should just stop acting like you know anything about this, because its apparent you don't. You can't posit your explanations about the affect of music on morale in combat, unless you have a source to cite - no matter how you try to frame your made up numbers. I doubt there has been a study about its effects on LETHAL combat, and modern sport martial arts - no matter how violent, don't cut it - because you don't DIE when you lose.Well, since we're not fighting with battleaxes, swords, shields, and plate armor anymore, I highly doubt such a study will provide any meaningful information (And any that does is HIGHLY unethical).


You have this gaming fantasy about combat that does not mesh with the reality of it. You know how many morale boosters the Marine Corps takes with them when they deploy an infantry battalion? ONE, the CHAPLAIN, not a musician. And that's for 900 people. You know what is the best thing to have when you have 10 guys is? One more guy that is fighting, and leading/coordinating the other guys - a squadleader.It depends on the force multiplier of the group.


OK, but, and I know this is impossible, what if it does happen...


... and you can't?You do it anyway, because nothing will keep you down. Because it's your job, and you're the hero.


If you've been overpowered, and on the verge of being killed, and your team-mate is standing there watching this and singing rather than doing literally almost anything else, you're not going to think "oh well, that's ok, I guess he's fulfilling his group role accurately even if it results in my dying, and maybe if he stops doing this thing that's already proven ineffective in this instance things will get even worse in some way that's not really relevant to me right now, so he' doing the right thing really". You're more likely to think "What the hell are you doing? Get this thing off me, you jerk!"First off "being overpowered" and "on the verge of being killed" are a state of mind that indicate you've already been defeated. Furthermore - the Bard has all the combat effectiveness of a kid. He's a walking stereo system and sometimes spell-slinger, not a combatant.


Now if you somehow survive because you get lucky or the wizard blasts him or someone else manages to drag the guy off you, that lingering mistrust of the bard - the suspicion that he's not pulling his weight, that he's an idiot, that he's a coward, or that he's just downright useless, isn't going to go away entirely, even if someone sits you down and talks you through the reasoning behind his doing what he did. What weight does the bard have to pull? You hired him because he's a walking stereo in combat, and useful toolbox, knowledge database, and packet of discount coupons outside of combat.


In fact, even if you go through it with the party calculator and work out with strictly accurate (not eyeballed or arbitrary) probabilities that it was better overall for him to keep playing than to help you directly, I think there's going to be a lingering suspicion of him, because what kind of cold-blooded psychopath watches their friend get pummelled into the floor and works out on the spot that he'll be more help singing than running over and trying to help more directly? And if singing is really the best thing he can do to help, and in this situation where it actually mattered it didn't apparently help at all, what's the point in him anyway?What's the point of the guy who runs over to save you but you both end up dying anyway because he's not a trained combatant? Or the fighter who tries to hold a hopeless breach but gets killed anyway? Or wizard who spams Save-Or-Dies that the enemy manages to Save against?


Now, assuming that your regular D&D party on a given active adventure, dungeoncrawl, whatever, is facing a couple of level-appropriate encounters a day, you're probably looking at, on average, every party member getting that sort of beatdown about once a week. Pretty soon, they're all going to be feeling like our hero above. By this point, the rest of the party is going to be questioning why they're giving the bard a share of the loot, when he doesn't really do anything, and, when it comes to the bard's turn to be attacked and nearly killed, are you going to save him, or go "sorry dude, but I've worked out I'm more effective doing <this other thing>"? You're certainly much less likely to risk your life for him.If the Party Defender/Fighter is getting outfought this often, I think the party needs to take another look at which character isn't Doing Their Job Right.

AMFV
2014-08-25, 02:28 PM
Plus there are those songs that are so electrifying they light your fists on fire. That's got to count for something.


Exactly, and it's not like people wouldn't have noticed that a bard supported unit performed even five percent better (with a level 1 Bard) and much better than that. The more people in a unit the bard is supporting the more effective they get. So in large scale units there is no reason not to spread the Bards out.



Even the Romans noticed a difference between warriors and soldiers, mate. Which do you think modern professional soldiers would be?

It's not really a difference between professional Soldiers and Warriors. So much as it is the cultural value of modesty in our society. The Vikings for example were taught not to be modest, so even if they felt guilty that they survived and like they didn't deserve the award they were supposed to act as though they did. The reverse being true in our society. Modesty is not culturally universal.

Garimeth
2014-08-25, 02:30 PM
Long Post!


I wouldn't take an anything from "On Killing" as anything better than that. He after all, never had a combat deployment, and his only source was one that's highly questioned. Machine Guns aren't really more effective, they have a different purpose in the field. As does Artillery, arty doesn't even really have any visible effect, you aren't going to really see what you hit several miles away. I suspect that most people are willing to kill for various reasons, but I imagine being thought of as a coward isn't one of the bigger ones.

As far as the Bardic Music goes. We are assuming that it is not a known effect In-Universe. Bards clearly have a demonstrable effect, one that people would notice in training and on the battlefield. After all a five to ten percent shift is going to be very very noticible, so it's unlikely that Bardic performance wouldn't be common knowledge, since it can very easily turn the tide of a battle. People aren't just thinking about it in terms that we'd think about it in the real world, they know it's magic, and they know it works.

On Killing was based off of the some of the few actual studies that have been conducted, and while he never had a combat deployment he was still an Army Ranger, a psychologist, conducted a number of interviews with combat veterans, and taught at West Point. Pretty good resume compared to random people on the internet, though there is admittedly controversy about some of his views - in particular with law enforecement, video games, and movies. I'm not a LE professional, and can't speak to that. Nor do I necessarily agree with his stance on media.

Also, realizing that I fall into random guy on the internet category also, I spent 3 years with 5th Marine Regiment in the 1st Marine Division, have had combat deployments, and several of my friends are highly decorated infantrymen and corpsmen, though let it not be said that I am a liar, or misrepresenting my service - I never recieved or gave fire during my deployments and I am not an infantryman, I trained and deployed with them however. I agree with a fair amount of his views as it pertains to the mentality of a member of the military in combat. Also to clarify, the cowardly part was talking about the supposed group of adventurers, not soldiers. I would say the biggest fear of the average servicemember is that he will let his buddies down. So even if a decent portion of his writing is conjecture, it lines up with the several years of training and experience I have had that validates a number of his assertions - which for me gives him more weight than random people on the internet. But even if you swap out his stance "people are afraid to kill" for "fear of death" or "low morale", which I think are almost equal factors (my top 3 would be fear of killing, fear of death, and level of realistic training), it still doesn't in anyway support the idea that a guy playing live music next to you instead of helping you fight is going to help you fight better when the stake is death (be it yours or the enemies) which is the stance that has to be taken by supporters of the idea of MUNDANE bardic music.

You're right about them having different roles on the battlefield, but you underestimate the group accountability that enables them to function better, which is what my point was, I said efficiency - and I meant efficiency in accomplishing their individual tasks. I've had to get in people's face, yell at them, and shake the **** out of them to get them to engage their weapon, IN TRAINING! (I should clarify this is in house clearing training with paint rounds against other Marines, not at the rifle range.)

Lastly, in regards to Bardic Music, the point of the whole OP, and every single comment that I have made is for if bardic music were NOT magical. I.E. Somebody playing music in the middle of a small scale combat in real life would not yield the results that we see in Inspire Courage. I've repeated this as being my stance several times during the thread, and yet people keep bringing magic back up, lol. With "magic" anything can make sense.


I know this - the music is also a distraction, especially in modern combat. No amount of morale boost can offset the distraction, isolation, and oblivion of headphones+music. Even loudspeakers can interfere with coordination and communication that can be lethal in a gunfight (Do marines clear buildings with Axes, Shields, and Broadswords, or shotguns, assault rifles, and SMGs?)

What you referenced was in response to somebody else's post about soldiers and ipods.


Well, since we're not fighting with battleaxes, swords, shields, and plate armor anymore, I highly doubt such a study will provide any meaningful information (And any that does is HIGHLY unethical).

Irrelevant, you keep posting made up statistics all the same. YOUR information is just as meaningless, as its made up.


It depends on the force multiplier of the group.

You don't know what you are talking about, and no chaplain is going to be patrolling with guys into combat. He's going to go to a location, do his thing there, and then go to another place, and his routes have to be screened by the unit's operations and logisitics sections, and if there is garunteed contact he will be told to visit that location another time most likely.


First off "being overpowered" and "on the verge of being killed" are a state of mind that indicate you've already been defeated. Furthermore - the Bard has all the combat effectiveness of a kid. He's a walking stereo system and sometimes spell-slinger, not a combatant.

What's the point of the guy who runs over to save you but you both end up dying anyway because he's not a trained combatant? Or the fighter who tries to hold a hopeless breach but gets killed anyway? Or wizard who spams Save-Or-Dies that the enemy manages to Save against?

He is just as much a combatant as the cleric or rogue! Also "on the verge of being killed" is not a state of mind, I could be behind you with a knife with you completely unaware of my presence and you are still on the verge of being killed.



Even the Romans noticed a difference between warriors and soldiers, mate. Which do you think modern professional soldiers would be?
Oh definitely, hence my saying it may work for adventurers and mentioning it as an aside.

AMFV
2014-08-25, 02:43 PM
Long Post!
On Killing was based off of the some of the few actual studies that have been conducted, and while he never had a combat deployment he was still an Army Ranger, a psychologist, conducted a number of interviews with combat veterans, and taught at West Point. Pretty good resume compared to random people on the internet, though there is admittedly controversy about some of his views - in particular with law enforecement, video games, and movies. I'm not a LE professional, and can't speak to that. Nor do I necessarily agree with his stance on media.

He was a reservist, who was quoting one actual study, which was a self-reporting study where they asked soldiers after fighting if they'd shot anybody. And there have been dozens of later studies using actual data which pretty heavily disprove it. After all if only 5% of soldiers were willing to kill then every engagement would involve all of the raw recruits being killed by a small number of veterans, but that's neither here nor there.




Also, realizing that I fall into random guy on the internet category also, I spent 3 years with 5th Marine Regiment in the 1st Marine Division, have had combat deployments, and several of my friends are highly decorated infantrymen and corpsmen, though let it not be said that I am a liar, or misrepresenting my service - I never recieved or gave fire during my deployments and I am not an infantryman, I trained and deployed with them however. I agree with a fair amount of his views as it pertains to the mentality of a member of the military in combat. Also to clarify, the cowardly part was talking about the supposed group of adventurers, not soldiers. I would say the biggest fear of the average servicemember is that he will let his buddies down. So even if a decent portion of his writing is conjecture, in lines up with several years of training and experience I have had that validates a number of his assertions - which for me gives him more weight than random people on the internet. But even if you swap out his stancepeople are afraid to kill for "fear of death" or "low morale", which i think are almost equal factors, it still doesn't in anyway support the idea that a guy playing live music next to you instead of helping you fight is going to help you fight better when the stake is death (be it yours or the enemies) which is the stance that has to be taken by supporters of the idea of MUNDANE bardic music.

I agree completely with almost all of this. However the guy playing music in the game is helping. I'm not really sure why people would be supporting the ideals of a mundane Bard, since that doesn't make any sense. At least not to me, and I've had my two deployments which were naturally really eventful. Although we did receive fire... once. were mortared in Fallujah, but that's not really anything. I've just read enough of Grossman's stuff and met enough people that were actually in combat to seriously doubt his findings. I think he was looking more to prove a point than anything else.

In any case onto to the topic at hand, in real life if mundane music worked, it'd be used, consistently by everybody, I'm sure that in the fantasy world it is.


L
You're right about them having different roles on the battlefield, but you underestimate the group accountability that enables them to function better, which is what my point was, I said efficiency - and I meant efficiency in accomplishing their individual tasks. I've had to get in people's face, yell at them, and shake the **** out of them to get them to engage their weapon, IN TRAINING! (I should clarify this is in house clearing training with paint rounds against other Marines, not at the rifle range.)


Well this is probably where Grossman went wrong I imagine, in training there is less of an incentive to e aggressive as you aren't going to die. Having your life threatened is a good incentive. And I'm sure that the people who you counseled in training, were likewise by having their lives threatened, no?

[QUOTE=Garimeth;18001174]L
Lastly, in regards to Bardic Music, the point of the whole OP, and every single comment that I have made is for if bardic music were NOT magical. I.E. Somebody playing music in the middle of a small scale combat in real life would not yield the results that we see in Inspire Courage. I've repeated this as being my stance several times during the thread, and yet people keep bringing magic back up, lol. With "magic" anything can make sense.[QUOTE]

True, if this were the case, we'd have people playing music in combat. As I was saying, since it is the case in D&D though, you would see that. If having your TL play a Kazoo would increase combat effectiveness by five percent or more, you don't think they'd issue Kazoos? Well they might make you buy them like the rape whistles. Again if having your A-Gunner hum "Bodies" by Drowning Pool helps in combat, they'd be doing it.

SiuiS
2014-08-25, 02:45 PM
It's not really a difference between professional Soldiers and Warriors. So much as it is the cultural value of modesty in our society. The Vikings for example were taught not to be modest, so even if they felt guilty that they survived and like they didn't deserve the award they were supposed to act as though they did. The reverse being true in our society. Modesty is not culturally universal.

Survivors guilt, yes, but that was only part of the inference I am addressing.



Lastly, in regards to Bardic Music, the point of the whole OP, and every single comment that I have made is for if bardic music were NOT magical. I.E. Somebody playing music in the middle of a small scale combat in real life would not yield the results that we see in Inspire Courage.

Are you sure? Both weapon performance and oratory are viable. Like, the bard could literally be working everyone into a frenzy by micromanaging orders. "You! Swing now!" And all.

And so what? What's the point? Bardic music is silly because it doesn't make sense in real combat, right next to this chimera and this guy who has perfect coordination with two large chopping weapons and who has taken multiple mailings but since he has one hit point he's fine, so let's ditch that one element for not being real enough?

You say that with magic anything can make sense. Well, yes. Duh. Especially magic. What I don't get is, why a re you asking how to make magic make sense without magic? That's like asking how to make a marine a good rifleman with no rifle and no range time and no ammunition. Or how to make a standing army without recruitment, training and logistics.

The question is invalid, not the answers received.



Oh definitely, hence my saying it may work for adventurers and mentioning it as an aside.

But your aside seemed derogatory.
If you want your elfgames to more fully match the non romantic realities of modern warfare, then asking why a romanticized fantasy nonmodern system that has had it's warfare roots systematically stripped away is not the way to go.

Garimeth
2014-08-25, 03:02 PM
Are you sure? Both weapon performance and oratory are viable. Like, the bard could literally be working everyone into a frenzy by micromanaging orders. "You! Swing now!" And all.

And so what? What's the point? Bardic music is silly because it doesn't make sense in real combat, right next to this chimera and this guy who has perfect coordination with two large chopping weapons and who has taken multiple mailings but since he has one hit point he's fine, so let's ditch that one element for not being real enough?

You say that with magic anything can make sense. Well, yes. Duh. Especially magic. What I don't get is, why a re you asking how to make magic make sense without magic? That's like asking how to make a marine a good rifleman with no rifle and no range time and no ammunition. Or how to make a standing army without recruitment, training and logistics.

The question is invalid, not the answers received.

But your aside seemed derogatory.
If you want your elfgames to more fully match the non romantic realities of modern warfare, then asking why a romanticized fantasy nonmodern system that has had it's warfare roots systematically stripped away is not the way to go.

LOL. I mean you can say the question is invalid all you want, but that was the question in the OP - and what I at least have been referencing this whole thread. But as an aside, he said "silly" not "realistic". You can make a "serious" game that has fantasy races and characters in it. Plenty of them in fact do not use fantasy races or monsters, and all the adversaries are other humans. Also, none of that other stuff matters, because that wasn't the point of the OP. I really think everybody arguing here should go and look at the OP, because context is key.

I reread my comment about valor awards, and there is nothing in my response that was remotely derogatory. This discussion has run the gamut, and I was pointing out as an "oh by the way" a distinction between adventurers and soldiers. Because while the conversation started about adventurers it has veered towards the military alot.


Alot.

Yeah man definitely agree with almost everything you said, though he did reference more than the SLA Marshall study, there were a couple across different time periods, but I agree its really neither here nor there.

My whole stance is hinged on the OP, and vehemenetly disagreeing with the people who started off implying or stating that music in real life (mundane) would inspire people in a way similar to inspire courage, which is so patently wrongheaded I had to say something. I mean even IN UNIVERSE not every musician's music has this effect, because not everyone is a bard, lol.

Hence my stance: magic is the only way it is not silly.

AMFV
2014-08-25, 03:09 PM
Survivors guilt, yes, but that was only part of the inference I am addressing.


As a former Marine, I'm not sure that the distinction is as pronounced as you imagine it to be. I was addressing more the cultural mores about modesty. We aren't supposed to look for fights, culturally that's bad in the Western World, at this time. Which is actually also a contrast between Rome and the "Barbarians" culturally which I suspect is why they produced that particular dichotomy.



But your aside seemed derogatory.
If you want your elfgames to more fully match the non romantic realities of modern warfare, then asking why a romanticized fantasy nonmodern system that has had it's warfare roots systematically stripped away is not the way to go.

Well you could completely have bards in a gritty setting, because they work, the same way as you can have medics and support troops, bards are support troops and they have demonstrable ability to improve people's ability to fight.

Anlashok
2014-08-25, 11:27 PM
It's explicitly magical. So there's that.

It's also a bit weird that a thing that's actually been done in real life (For thousands of years at that) is where we draw the line in the sand on our suspension of disbelief.

Aedilred
2014-08-26, 01:20 AM
You do it anyway, because nothing will keep you down. Because it's your job, and you're the hero.
If you're not going to bother to engage with the issue properly...


First off "being overpowered" and "on the verge of being killed" are a state of mind that indicate you've already been defeated.
Yeah, like Garimeth said, this is basically nonsense, sorry.


Furthermore - the Bard has all the combat effectiveness of a kid. He's a walking stereo system and sometimes spell-slinger, not a combatant.

What weight does the bard have to pull? You hired him because he's a walking stereo in combat, and useful toolbox, knowledge database, and packet of discount coupons outside of combat.

What weight does he have to pull? His share of the loot's worth. His share of the risk's worth. His share of bailing me out of trouble's worth. Who's worth more to me, the guy who's going to pull me out of trouble when my life's on the line, or the guy who stands there watching and singing? And if they're both costing me the same, why wouldn't I get an extra one of Type A and leave Type B back in the tavern where he belongs. If I want to listen to him sing I'll go and see him there.


What's the point of the guy who runs over to save you but you both end up dying anyway because he's not a trained combatant? Or the fighter who tries to hold a hopeless breach but gets killed anyway? Or wizard who spams Save-Or-Dies that the enemy manages to Save against?

Well, that's obviously gone wrong. But at least they're trying to do something which is obviously directly relevant to the situation at hand, which in the aftermath of whatever's happened is likely to win them more credit with me/my crew than someone who didn't do that.


If the Party Defender/Fighter is getting outfought this often, I think the party needs to take another look at which character isn't Doing Their Job Right.

Eh. Most campaigns I've been in have had regular tough battles where someone gets thumped down to their last few hit points. But if the fighter is struggling that badly, you could sack him, sure. Or sack the bard and hire another fighter. The fighter might be struggling, but at least he's obviously doing something, rather than playing the kazoo or whatever.



It's also a bit weird that a thing that's actually been done in real life (For thousands of years at that) is where we draw the line in the sand on our suspension of disbelief.
There's a difference in scale between a regimental musician (which I agree makes perfect sense) and a bard in an adventuring party, though. Dedicating around 15-20% of your available personnel to play the specific support role of standing there and singing is not something I'm aware of being done by any people in history. Maybe it was and they're just a bit obscure... although I'd suggest that's possibly indicative of the success of the strategy in itself.

Anlashok
2014-08-26, 11:02 AM
There's a difference in scale between a regimental musician (which I agree makes perfect sense) and a bard in an adventuring party, though. Dedicating around 15-20% of your available personnel to play the specific support role of standing there and singing is not something I'm aware of being done by any people in history. Maybe it was and they're just a bit obscure... although I'd suggest that's possibly indicative of the success of the strategy in itself.

Oh I agree there. The scale doesn't make sense. Which is why the Bard isn't just the regimental musician. The musician after all isn't going to be running around chopping heads off and tending to the wounded while he sings after all.

Now if the bard was actually just

the guy who stands there watching and singing
you'd have a point. He isn't though.

The bard is a warrior-mage who just happens to also be able to sing magical songs that cause you to hit harder, ignore pain, or make the enemy **** themselves.

Prince Raven
2014-08-26, 09:51 PM
All the wizard does is chant silly words while taking strange stuff out of his bag. The bard takes a moment to start performing then goes in and fights with the rest of them.
It is the wizard who is the silly one.

Synar
2014-08-26, 11:03 PM
Well musicians in suads were very much a thing. Most of the time with percussions, but still. Because in ancient warfare,keeping your formations formed and united* was a key part, and this is highly dependent on morale. Modern warfare is much more complex, and it reposes far less on conscripts and mildly trained troops and far more on higly trained, professional, organized soldiers (for the winning sides) and morale is still very much a thing, but those soldiers tend to have already high morale by default and repose more on perfect execution, organisation and intel than holding the ground/charging whil keeping the line and not breaking formation/fleeing (which repose on high spirit) (and combat musicians might not be very practical nowadays in gunfight, you know).


Also unless this is the only bardic power and there is no magic at all, you could play on bards singing the song of reality. And even if we are not allowed to talk about religions here, songs/notes/words of creation are very much a thing too.





*I can't find te right words as I'm french, but you get what I mean

Aedilred
2014-08-26, 11:15 PM
All the wizard does is chant silly words while taking strange stuff out of his bag. The bard takes a moment to start performing then goes in and fights with the rest of them.
It is the wizard who is the silly one.

That's not all the wizard is doing, though. His magic has an obvious and visible effect. Goblins go boom. It's difficult to argue the wizard isn't pulling his weight when he's just vapourised the trolls you were fighting, even if he's not holding a weapon.

If the bard is actually fighting, that does change things a bit, but there seems to be the idea floating around (from Sartharina most notably) that the bard's job literally is just to stand there and sing, and not to fight - and moreover that he's more useful doing that, because he's a rubbish fighter and his music is just so awesome that it's more effective than a dedicated fighter or caster. Which I think is where the perception of silliness OOC - and my argued perception of uselessness IC - comes from.

Because it is silly, and unless there's a very obviously perceptible and useful magical effect to that music (on a par or, the way things go, even moreso than the wizard's illusions, evocations, conjurations etc. or the cleric's healing), he's going to be seen as useless by the party as well. I mean, you don't need to look any further than Elan in the OOtS. Even he acknowledges he's silly and useless. Anlashok's charismatic warrior-mage makes a lot more sense if you're not playing the idea for laughs.

I mean, there's nothing wrong in principle with a party having a bard who just stands there and sings. He could be an apprentice, sidekick, adopted orphan, tagalong, squire, group mascot, someone they've commissioned to write a song of the group's deeds, or whatever. But he's a cohort, not a full party member, and isn't going to get a full cut of the loot.

Prince Raven
2014-08-26, 11:22 PM
Bards may only be 3/4 BAB but Inspire Courage more than makes up for that.
I just don't see how the bard taking 6 seconds to start performing a battle dirge or something in order to boost every member of the party is less silly than the Wizard chanting what sounds like nonsense while holding out a shaving of liquorice root to boost only 1 member of the party, or spraying sparkly glitter at the enemy. Sure, blasting wizards have flashy effects but the generally more effective buff/debuff ones don't really appear to be doing anything in combat at first glance.

Aedilred
2014-08-27, 12:15 AM
Even talking about buffs only, morale is one of the least tangible available types. Most wizard buffs will be more obvious than that - and stuff like Stoneskin probably actually has a visible effect. Cleric buffs, not so much maybe, but the cleric also has super-healing powers so he's going to win friends that way.

In any case I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm not disputing that an all-action bard is effective, and visibly contributes to the team. It might still be a little silly, but I can live with that. I'm challenging the specific idea, as espoused by Sartharina above, that the bard's job is to stand there and sing and not get involved in combat, and that his contribution to the party by doing that is more effective than (firstly) if he did fight, and (secondly) a frontline warrior or full caster would be in his place. In that interpretation, it doesn't matter what the bard's BAB is, because he shouldn't be using it.

That's what I think is silly, and doesn't make IC sense.

AMFV
2014-08-27, 12:15 AM
That's not all the wizard is doing, though. His magic has an obvious and visible effect. Goblins go boom. It's difficult to argue the wizard isn't pulling his weight when he's just vapourised the trolls you were fighting, even if he's not holding a weapon.

Not necessarily, many wizard spells are extremely subtle and nuanced. Charm Person for example, it'd be very hard to distinguish that from an enemy freezing in combat for other reasons. Daze as well. Many of the best spells are difficult to pin point, fog appearing out of nowhere, the wind picking up and stopping arrows. Remember, the six second rounds all actions are roughly happening simultaneously. So you get the wizard chanting at the same time as somebody is swinging a sword at you and you're returning the favor. I'd be surprised if you were able to pay that much attention.



If the bard is actually fighting, that does change things a bit, but there seems to be the idea floating around (from Sartharina most notably) that the bard's job literally is just to stand there and sing, and not to fight - and moreover that he's more useful doing that, because he's a rubbish fighter and his music is just so awesome that it's more effective than a dedicated fighter or caster. Which I think is where the perception of silliness OOC - and my argued perception of uselessness IC - comes from.

Well a Bard who is built for that, tend to have some very notable effects, also people would tend to respond well to that, since Bards are a known quantity. It's not like they're just showing up and saying their music will help, this has been demonstrated previously. A Bard optimized for inspire courage on the other hand will produce a massive improvement, maybe higher than twenty-five percent. In a party of four people that means that his contribution is more than enough to stand in the back. In a larger party, this is doubly true, and that's discounting other snazzy effects like the flaming weapons and such. A bard has as clear an effect on the battlefield as the subtly buffing Wizard.



Because it is silly, and unless there's a very obviously perceptible and useful magical effect to that music (on a par or, the way things go, even moreso than the wizard's illusions, evocations, conjurations etc. or the cleric's healing), he's going to be seen as useless by the party as well. I mean, you don't need to look any further than Elan in the OOtS. Even he acknowledges he's silly and useless. Anlashok's charismatic warrior-mage makes a lot more sense if you're not playing the idea for laughs.

Well the thing is that Elan is a rubbish bard. Bardic music has a ton of clearly visible effects, increased performance, regeneration, your weapons lighting on fire. Even inspire courage has demonstrable effect, after all a five percent increase in efficacy in combat is tremendous. The problem is that you are assuming that people are looking at it unaware of that increase in efficacy which is unreasonable. A Bard's music is not normal music, we don't have a Mascot cheering, or even the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders, we have something with a measurable and clear magical effect.



I mean, there's nothing wrong in principle with a party having a bard who just stands there and sings. He could be an apprentice, sidekick, adopted orphan, tagalong, squire, group mascot, someone they've commissioned to write a song of the group's deeds, or ., and isn't going to get a full cut of the loot.

There's nothing wrong with having a sidekick who does that. But a Bard is something else entirely, a bard can make four men into an army, he can light their weapons on fire, he can make them brave, he can stop evil spells from affecting them. That's a pretty notable effect. And he has other abilities.


Even talking about buffs only, morale is one of the least tangible available types. Most wizard buffs will be more obvious than that - and stuff like Stoneskin probably actually has a visible effect. Cleric buffs, not so much maybe, but the cleric also has super-healing powers so he's going to win friends that way.

In any case I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm not disputing that an all-action bard is effective, and visibly contributes to the team. It might still be a little silly, but I can live with that. I'm challenging the specific idea, as espoused by Sartharina above, that the bard's job is to stand there and sing and not get involved in combat, and that his contribution to the party by doing that is more effective than (firstly) if he did fight, and (secondly) a frontline warrior or full caster would be in his place. In that interpretation, it doesn't matter what the bard's BAB is, because he shouldn't be using it.

That's what I think is silly, and doesn't make IC sense.

Again a bard who is optimized for that purpose will have an extremely noticeable effect, and if they don't people will certainly notice when they start playing how much their effectiveness improves. This isn't a small increase, it isn't music making you feel better while you're working. This is something magical, and you're telling me you wouldn't notice it.

Prince Raven
2014-08-27, 12:44 AM
The Bard doesn't have to be on the front lines either, he could be in the back with a bow or a whip, or even casting spells for even more buffing and debuffing. That's the beautiful thing about Bards, they are a very versatile class on top of having a party-wide buffing class feature.

Garimeth
2014-08-27, 06:37 AM
If the bard is actually fighting, that does change things a bit, but there seems to be the idea floating around (from Sartharina most notably) that the bard's job literally is just to stand there and sing, and not to fight - and moreover that he's more useful doing that, because he's a rubbish fighter and his music is just so awesome that it's more effective than a dedicated fighter or caster. Which I think is where the perception of silliness OOC - and my argued perception of uselessness IC - comes from.


THIS and the idea that non magic music can provide bonuses comparable to Inspire Courage IRL is where the argument lies. People want to argue against points neither one of us are saying, lol.


This isn't a small increase, it isn't music making you feel better while you're working. This is something magical, and you're telling me you wouldn't notice it.

The argument here is that some people have said that it is EXACTLY like music making you work better, that this can happen in real life, and that it makes sense when the music is NOT magical. That is what we are arguing against, not that magic music is magic

AMFV
2014-08-27, 07:30 AM
THIS and the idea that non magic music can provide bonuses comparable to Inspire Courage IRL is where the argument lies. People want to argue against points neither one of us are saying, lol.

The problem is that you two are making different arguments. Aedilred is arguing that Bards would not be given equal share or seen as contributing despite having magic music (Or at least as far as I've understood him). Claiming that nobody would be able to recognize the effects. Which I believe stems from the earlier association with the real music. I mean you were in the Marines, you don't think they'd be fine with doing something that looked ridiculous if it were effective, I mean it seemed like that was the majority of the the things we did to me.



The argument here is that some people have said that it is EXACTLY like music making you work better, that this can happen in real life, and that it makes sense when the music is NOT magical. That is what we are arguing against, not that magic music is magic

Well there are two arguments going on at the same time. One is that Bards even with magical music wouldn't be utilized in adventuring parties (and stop me if I'm not understanding correctly) the other is that regular music wouldn't be utilized in that way. The problem is that we have no comparison. There is no music that improves fighting ability by five percent, nothing comes close to what a level one bard can do, and that's something that I assume would have a demonstrable and noticeable effect. I mean I think I'd definitely notice a five percent increase in my abilities, since that's huge.

Garimeth
2014-08-27, 08:15 AM
The problem is that you two are making different arguments. Aedilred is arguing that Bards would not be given equal share or seen as contributing despite having magic music (Or at least as far as I've understood him). Claiming that nobody would be able to recognize the effects. Which I believe stems from the earlier association with the real music. I mean you were in the Marines, you don't think they'd be fine with doing something that looked ridiculous if it were effective, I mean it seemed like that was the majority of the the things we did to me.

Well there are two arguments going on at the same time. One is that Bards even with magical music wouldn't be utilized in adventuring parties (and stop me if I'm not understanding correctly) the other is that regular music wouldn't be utilized in that way. The problem is that we have no comparison. There is no music that improves fighting ability by five percent, nothing comes close to what a level one bard can do, and that's something that I assume would have a demonstrable and noticeable effect. I mean I think I'd definitely notice a five percent increase in my abilities, since that's huge.

Hmm. I think that Aed is mostly referencing Sarthina's statement that its counter-productive for him to fight because he's "not a combatant". Which is wrong.

As far as the other one, I agree we have no reference, but some people keep insisting that regular music, in fact, does work that way.

Lastly, full disclosure, I was my unit's RP - not a Marine, I just don't bother making the distinction because either nobody knows what I do or when I say I'm a sailor they start thinking actual Navy, and I've never been on a ship a day in my life. That or they think I'm a corpsman, or when I try to explain I was "Navy attached to the Marines, but not actually part of the Marines" people either are just confused or get the wrong idea and think I'm like a SEAL or something lol.

Anyway, Semper Fi all the same.

Raimun
2014-08-27, 10:33 AM
1) Don't roll a Bard. Why were you rolling a Bard?
2) Roll a Barbarian.
3) Take Perform (Sing)
4) Sing in every battle.

Because speaking is a free action.

While it is cool, it's also surprisingly effective in some situations.

I once made a singing Barbarian who not only bashed heads but took hits for the team because he was very tough. Others had sneaky characters who would sneak in position while perplexed monsters would come check out who the hell is singing battle songs in their territory.

The best part is that a singing Barbarian smashes skulls just as well as his less artistic colleagues.

Garimeth
2014-08-27, 11:14 AM
1) Don't roll a Bard. Why were you rolling a Bard?
2) Roll a Barbarian.
3) Take Perform (Sing)
4) Sing in every battle.

Because speaking is a free action.

While it is cool, it's also surprisingly effective in some situations.

I once made a singing Barbarian who not only bashed heads but took hits for the team because he was very tough. Others had sneaky characters who would sneak in position while perplexed monsters would come check out who the hell is singing battle songs in their territory.

The best part is that a singing Barbarian smashes skulls just as well as his less artistic colleagues.

This reminds me of the bardbarian build in DDO. Buff and self buff the party with magic, sing, rage, kill.

Aedilred
2014-08-27, 11:36 AM
Hmm. I think that Aed is mostly referencing Sarthina's statement that its counter-productive for him to fight because he's "not a combatant". Which is wrong.

As far as the other one, I agree we have no reference, but some people keep insisting that regular music, in fact, does work that way.

Yes, indeed.

AMFV: My point about the magic is only that if that's all he's doing, the magic had better be damn good, and sufficiently obvious as effective magic rather than mundane music, for the reasons discussed (i.e. normal music doesn't work that way). If he's actually fighting, that issue largely goes away.

On the point of the wizarding buff spells, well maybe, but I think the wizard's spells would be, on the whole, more perceptible and more obviously useful than a bard's just singing would be. I could go through the entire wizard spell list to try to verify that, but I actually can't think of anything less productive to do with my time, so if that's going to go any further, which is kind of missing my point anyway (see above, and what Garimeth's said) we might just have to agree to disagree.

Sartharina
2014-08-27, 11:37 AM
If you're not going to bother to engage with the issue properly...You are assuming a worst-case scenario. The real world isn't that bleak.


Yeah, like Garimeth said, this is basically nonsense, sorry.You are on the verge of being painfully incapacitated and mortally wounded - but you might still have a few seconds or even minutes before that eventuality to turn the situation around.


What weight does he have to pull? His share of the loot's worth. His share of the risk's worth. His share of bailing me out of trouble's worth. Who's worth more to me, the guy who's going to pull me out of trouble when my life's on the line, or the guy who stands there watching and singing? And if they're both costing me the same, why wouldn't I get an extra one of Type A and leave Type B back in the tavern where he belongs. If I want to listen to him sing I'll go and see him there.Because there is much, much more to an adventure than simple Combat. In fact, most adventures are best if you avoid combat entirely (Something later editions of D&D have lost). Type A cannot get you in to see the King, cannot get good leads on well-paying jobs, cannot put together the various parts of the quest that don't seem to make sense, cannot tell you the significance of the magic sword you found lying around, cannot negotiate a truce with enemies you couldn't outfight even with another fighter...


Well, that's obviously gone wrong. But at least they're trying to do something which is obviously directly relevant to the situation at hand, which in the aftermath of whatever's happened is likely to win them more credit with me/my crew than someone who didn't do that.So is keeping everyone in a "We will win" mindset. Does the bard not get credit if, thanks to the inspiration from his music, the party fighter completely obliterates enemies that would otherwise outclass them?


There's a difference in scale between a regimental musician (which I agree makes perfect sense) and a bard in an adventuring party, though. Dedicating around 15-20% of your available personnel to play the specific support role of standing there and singing is not something I'm aware of being done by any people in history. Maybe it was and they're just a bit obscure... although I'd suggest that's possibly indicative of the success of the strategy in itself.Adventuring parties are not dedicated combat units.

AMFV
2014-08-27, 12:21 PM
Hmm. I think that Aed is mostly referencing Sarthina's statement that its counter-productive for him to fight because he's "not a combatant". Which is wrong.

Well technically speaking a Bard actually gets a lot of mileage out of the vow of nonviolence. Which is a lot less restrictive than the Vow of Peace. So a non-combatant singing bard is entirely possible.



As far as the other one, I agree we have no reference, but some people keep insisting that regular music, in fact, does work that way.

Again the issue is we have no reference. I think that being able to hit harder and more accurately would have to have an immediately noticeable physical effect, not to mention the stuff that Bards get later. A Bard built to inspire would be clearly recognizable as having magical powers.



Lastly, full disclosure, I was my unit's RP - not a Marine, I just don't bother making the distinction because either nobody knows what I do or when I say I'm a sailor they start thinking actual Navy, and I've never been on a ship a day in my life. That or they think I'm a corpsman, or when I try to explain I was "Navy attached to the Marines, but not actually part of the Marines" people either are just confused or get the wrong idea and think I'm like a SEAL or something lol.

Anyway, Semper Fi all the same.

Er, We had a linguistic that was a Navy attachment person in Fallujah. I don't remember exactly what that was called. But I imagine she'd have similar confusion. But she was an Arab Linguist.


Yes, indeed.

AMFV: My point about the magic is only that if that's all he's doing, the magic had better be damn good, and sufficiently obvious as effective magic rather than mundane music, for the reasons discussed (i.e. normal music doesn't work that way). If he's actually fighting, that issue largely goes away.

Well Bardic music is completely different from normal music. It's magical, and has an obvious measurable effect on you. If the effect can be measured by an outside observer how do you think it feels for somebody who is under the effect.



On the point of the wizarding buff spells, well maybe, but I think the wizard's spells would be, on the whole, more perceptible and more obviously useful than a bard's just singing would be. I could go through the entire wizard spell list to try to verify that, but I actually can't think of anything less productive to do with my time, so if that's going to go any further, which is kind of missing my point anyway (see above, and what Garimeth's said) we might just have to agree to disagree.

I don't think that's the case though. A Bard built to inspire is going to cause your weapons to light on fire. You're going to be fighting at at least thirty percent more effectiveness in the end. Even if there is no demonstrable effect in terms of glowing aura or what-not (and there might be) the effects of being under Bardic music are tantamount the effects of being on performance enhancing drugs, and that's a noticeable difference, not something you'd shrug off and wonder if it was working.

Garimeth
2014-08-27, 12:53 PM
You are assuming a worst-case scenario. The real world isn't that bleak.

This one statement is all I need to know we will never agree on this.

Good talk.

Jacob.Tyr
2014-08-27, 01:07 PM
I don't think that's the case though. A Bard built to inspire is going to cause your weapons to light on fire. You're going to be fighting at at least thirty percent more effectiveness in the end. Even if there is no demonstrable effect in terms of glowing aura or what-not (and there might be) the effects of being under Bardic music are tantamount the effects of being on performance enhancing drugs, and that's a noticeable difference, not something you'd shrug off and wonder if it was working.
Is there any way to substitute Perform (???) with Craft (PCP)? That would be a fun way to boost your team via mundane means.

cildan
2014-08-27, 01:19 PM
I have a problem with singing bards, but that's because I imagine bards as being focused combatants, so taking time out of battling to sing at your allies struck me as wrong.

I like acting bards. You can fluff it as you fighting so stylishly that your allies fight harder.

However, my next project when I play D&D is to have a pair of bards in the party, one with perform (swanny whistle) and the other with perform (kazoo). Or maybe perform (piano) and perform (songs to the tune of other songs). No points for guessing what I've been listening to.

I'm sorry I Don't Have A Clue what your talking about :elan:

daremetoidareyo
2014-08-27, 05:01 PM
To sum it all up:

Option 1.) Bards use magic. Their magic is contained in their music. The magic suffuses through the allies and lends a bonus. Wizards do weird things to make spells happen, why can't you suspend your disbelief for the effete sucker with a lute?

Option 2.) Bard music isn't magic. Their skill and charisma generates a palpable psychological effect.

a.) In Real life combat situations, having a dude singing seems unlikely to have an effect


Depends on unit size: large armies see a morale effect to having an aural representative; the concept breaks down for small units, as that body is needed for combat, and the bonuses observed in large scale bonuses represent a gestalt of minor good moods amongst 100s of soldiers

b.) this isn't real life combat, so basilisks, chimera, liches, whathaveyou can attack, but the johnny applesong can totally be legit: you're an elf for crissake!

Option 3.) If you have a problem, switch the performance category to oratory. "Do you want to live forever, you apes?"

a.)Fixes combat believability to have a weaker more charismatic man yelling instructions, insults and hell yeahs to his comrades, especially in small groups. The best fighter isn't necessarily the company captain. It introduces some fluff issues with countersong.

b.) Further, PCs have a sense of combat abilities, but they don't necessarily have a sense of statistical skill levels associated with class and level, so they accept all allies. Do you think skills and talents are evenly distributed in the worlds' military by a true meritocracy?

Option 3 is the middle road path, with the other two approaches unlikely to marry believability to the core concept for some, no matter what magical reasoning applied.

AMFV
2014-08-27, 05:54 PM
To sum it all up:

Option 1.) Bards use magic. Their magic is contained in their music. The magic suffuses through the allies and lends a bonus. Wizards do weird things to make spells happen, why can't you suspend your disbelief for the effete sucker with a lute?

I'll note that in both 3.5 and Pathfinder this is the correct option since all Bardic Music is (Su) or (Sp)

Edit: In any case they have a demonstrable effect, and a measurable effect, what's more.

Sartharina
2014-08-27, 06:55 PM
This one statement is all I need to know we will never agree on this.

Good talk.

Probably not. Some people are more responsive to music than others. I take it you're not.

AMFV
2014-08-27, 08:02 PM
Is there any way to substitute Perform (???) with Craft (PCP)? That would be a fun way to boost your team via mundane means.

There should be a drug dealer class. Although the Pathfinder Alchemist could probably be fluffed that way.

Garimeth
2014-08-28, 06:52 AM
Probably not. Some people are more responsive to music than others. I take it you're not.

I'm a musician. I play, write, and teach music - which I have done for 15 years.

My disagreement is your rose-tinted and unrealistic view of the world. Represented by a couple of different comments, such as:


Getting stabbed isn't serious (In the battle - it may prove lethal later) if you keep your spirits and morale high, and maintain the right emotional state.
Yeah ok. You've clearly never been in fear of your life, or seen the result of a serious stabbing.


And no, your buddy's NOT being stabbed 10 feet from you - He's stabbing someone else. He might take a few cuts and scrapes, but the battle music you're playing is keeping the fight in a "We're badasses kicking ass and taking names" context, instead of "We're a bunch of desperate survivalists being torn apart by an insurmountable foe!"
...


And morale comes just as much if not more from a current musical performance than speeches or leadership, which can be forgotten in the heat of a battle. The epic guitar riffs in the background driving you on aren't as forgettable or dismissable.
What? Your leader is RIGHT THERE!


The music sort of changes this, by keeping the person in a mental state of NOT caring that he takes a wound ...

You do it anyway, because nothing will keep you down. Because it's your job, and you're the hero.
Yes, because the power of believing in myself automatically makes me over come all odds! I'll let my guys know they got shot because they didn't have enough determination.


First off "being overpowered" and "on the verge of being killed" are a state of mind that indicate you've already been defeated.
...really?


It also doesn't help when you act like you know about things you actually don't, or make up things like this:

No, you don't need the magic. The effect of the music is to keep morale high, and the fighters in a winner's mindset (Which can make them fight as well as three less-inspired men)

I exaggerated the effectiveness (It's probably closer to a 10-15% boost, maybe 20% in effectiveness, instead of 300% - but it's better to have 10 guys and a morale-booster than 11 normal guys)
Thanks for that clarification!

So I was going to just leave it alone, but the idea that I disagree with you because "Some people are more responsive to music than others." and since I disagree with your ludicrous staements I must not be...well let's just say I had to clarify WHY I disagree with you.

I disagree because in the real world bad things happen to good people, life isn't fair, the good guy doesn't always win, and everything doesn't always turn out happily ever after. If you want all that stuff in your game, that's great, but to sit here and say that all those above statements could apply in a real life (which you did in context), that is why I disagree with you. Life isn't a Disney movie.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-28, 09:53 AM
I'm a musician. I play, write, and teach music - which I have done for 15 years.

My disagreement is your rose-tinted and unrealistic view of the world. Represented by a couple of different comments, such as:


Yeah ok. You've clearly never been in fear of your life, or seen the result of a serious stabbing.


...


What? Your leader is RIGHT THERE!



Yes, because the power of believing in myself automatically makes me over come all odds! I'll let my guys know they got shot because they didn't have enough determination.


...really?


It also doesn't help when you act like you know about things you actually don't, or make up things like this:


Thanks for that clarification!

So I was going to just leave it alone, but the idea that I disagree with you because "Some people are more responsive to music than others." and since I disagree with your ludicrous staements I must not be...well let's just say I had to clarify WHY I disagree with you.

I disagree because in the real world bad things happen to good people, life isn't fair, the good guy doesn't always win, and everything doesn't always turn out happily ever after. If you want all that stuff in your game, that's great, but to sit here and say that all those above statements could apply in a real life (which you did in context), that is why I disagree with you. Life isn't a Disney movie.

Yes, this. A thousand times this. Thank you.
People that think they know things they actually don't is nothing new to the Internet but Sartharina brings it to a whole new level. Reading her comments I'm getting the mental picture of someone that thinks Hollywood movies are realistic and plausible.

Sartharina
2014-08-28, 09:55 AM
I speak from personal experience.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-28, 10:08 AM
I speak from personal experience.

No, you don't. :smallannoyed:

Sartharina
2014-08-28, 10:11 AM
No, you don't. :smallannoyed:Yes, I do. :smallamused:

Kalmageddon
2014-08-28, 10:36 AM
Yes, I do. :smallamused:

Have you got any idea on how offensive you are in spewing stuff like this? There are people on this forum who have had real traumatic experiences involving knife fights or similar life threatening situations. And you waltz in, saying "no, I'm talking from experience, being inspired by a bard totally works" while supporting completely and obviously unrealistic points of view.

There's desperately trying to prove that you are right and then there's this. This is insulting. It's really insulting.
You've already told a musician that he doesn't care about music enough because he thinks you are talking nonsense with this whole bard thing. Now you are digging yourself even deeper. Please stop this.

Sartharina
2014-08-28, 10:37 AM
There are people on this forum who have had real traumatic experiences involving knife fights or similar life threatening situations. Yes. One of them happens to have a furry avatar and is arguing with someone who's decided her experience doesn't count because it doesn't mesh with how he thinks it should go.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-28, 10:42 AM
Yes. One of them happens to have a furry avatar and is arguing with someone who's decided her experience doesn't count because it doesn't mesh with how he thinks it should go.

*edit*
Actually: **** this. You are not worth it.

Sartharina
2014-08-28, 11:08 AM
And another one is right here with a skeleton as his avatar, wanna bet on who's not bull****ting an entire forum?! Wanna bet on who's had PTSD for the **** he's seen? I better put you in the ignore list before I really get angry. I fed you too much already.I don't doubt you've had such experiences (since you've said it)... but I'm not surprised two different people from two different walks of life react significantly differently when exposed to apparently similar trauma, and take away completely different lessons from the experiences.

Merellis
2014-08-28, 11:12 AM
Not sure accusing someone of bull****ting because their experience with the situation differs from your own is the right way to go about it.

As for the Bardic Music discussion, I'm not really sure what the issue is here. All of them are magical in nature; the PC just needs to RP it well to make it work. Perform (Dance) for inspire courage by showing her comrades that this is not a hard fight as she continues to dance and slice her way to victory, the magic in the movements inspiring them to greatness.

Inspire competence could be a whistled song with just the right tempo and tune to put the PC into a trance that blocks out all obstacles.

All these really need is a decent RPer to handle and the bard works great, she doesn't need to explain how it works, just needs to show that she can work her magic and still be useful out and in combat.

Toss them into the leader role where they fit by design. They're the ones negotiating jobs and then coercing people into assisting the party. They lie and talk their way into things, they have healing, and they have a knack for knowing about local legends and notable people in the world.

The only real issue to explaining how a bard works is just that they need that extra kick of RP for verisimilitude, which is still covered by "It's magic"

Sartharina
2014-08-28, 11:27 AM
The argument came about because, from personal experience, I don't think it's absurd that the right jam can cause someone to practically hulk out in a fight and perform significantly better than they otherwise would (I still need broom handle or other bar-like tool to fight effectively, though. My hands and feet are too sensitive to deliver blunt force trauma. It's kinda funny, actually.)

Kalmageddon
2014-08-28, 11:51 AM
Not sure accusing someone of bull****ting because their experience with the situation differs from your own is the right way to go about it.

"

I simply do not believe her. She talks like she has no idea of what real life is, just take a look at her posts. I obviously can't prove she's lying, but read how she expresses herself on the subject and tell me she doesn't sound completely disconnected from reality.
Anyway, this is my last post on the matter, either way I don't give a damn.

Sartharina
2014-08-28, 12:55 PM
She talks like she has no idea of what real life is, just take a look at her posts.Well, if it clears anything up - I feel the same way about all your posts. It's actually pretty amazing just how huge the subjective experiences of life can be.

Garimeth
2014-08-28, 03:46 PM
Well... that escalated while I was gone.

Well I'm not going to assume I know anybody's life story, but.... Kalm, I tend towards your view, but you're right its not worth it.

I'm not talking about PTSD, or resilience. I'm talking about in the moment.

Music is powerful. Its powerful as a reliency tool, and its powerful as a healing tool. I've had fellow veterans who I gave guitar lessons to or with specifically for the purpose of helping them overcome PTSD. I've played music and taught music IN AFGHANISTAN to guys in my unit to help our morale and build their resilience. People who thanked me for the music I played, and told me they looked forward to it every week when I wasn't out on mission - hell having that outlet of music probably saved my marriage and my career. None of this matters when the blast goes off, you hear the crack of the round, or the ANA guy on foot patrol with you turns and shoots your friend in front of you. If you don't get tunnel vision or freeze, your training probably kicks in. Maybe you're scared, but probably you're ANGRY. You're angry that these guys are shooting at you. People are yelling, guns are going off, your trying to locate where the enemy was, somebody is calling for the corpsman or medic...

You're not thinking of epic guitar riffs. You're not thinking of whiskey for my men. Because the enemy isn't some notional thing, he's RIGHT THERE. In that house, shooting at you and your friends. Or you have no idea where he is, but this IED just went off, and Doc has a tourniquet on what's left of Johnson's leg, the radio operator is yelling for the corpsman to give him the info for the casevac, and you KNOW that you're being watched, and there's probably a secondary IED and possibly an ambush coming.

You're not thinking of that really motivational metal song you listen to in the gym. Because your squadleader is yelling for you're fire team to engage the right flank and your weapon just got a double feed and you can't engage **** until you clear it. But you came around the MRAP and put two in the chest and one in the groin of some guy who had an AK-47 and you guys are pushing into a building now to get to the second deck where the fire is coming from, and you really don't want to be the first guy to go up those stairs but **** it, you don't want one of the other guys to go up it either so you just do it anyway, and you're calling out the hallway as you clear the stairs and drop a guy down the hall who is turning to face you. You verify he's dead and you have this wierd feeling of pleasure for having helped your team, and wonder if you are a bad person because you are amped up and excited right now. Or maybe your horrified at having to do it, but it was him or you.

Sure, different people react different ways, but you can't sell me a guy strumming a guitar or playing a flute in the middle of all that and tell me it would be motivating. I would shoot that ******* myself. And giving us all knives or swords isn't going to change any of that.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Jacob.Tyr
2014-08-28, 04:54 PM
Deleted because I was kind of an asshat.