Polymorph and Concentration

[TheSethGrey]

When under the effects of a Polymorph spell and you take damage I assume you have to make a concentration check to stay in your form, do you retain any bonuses you get from Feats? What might be a reasonable bonus to have when polymorphing into a beast that does melee combat?

[Lokiare]

When under the effects of a Polymorph spell and you take damage I assume you have to make a concentration check to stay in your form, do you retain any bonuses you get from Feats? What might be a reasonable bonus to have when polymorphing into a beast that does melee combat?

There are 2 feats you can take. One grants proficiency on Con saves and the other grants advantage to Con saves with concentration. Together they give you a 97.75% chance to save when you take less than 21 damage and that's with a +0 Con mod.

[HorridElemental]

Do note that feats are optional and each feat is subject to DM approval.

As a DM I would just say that any tactics used by the party very often may allow enemies (the world) to catch on and start duplicating that tactic. The world isn't static after all and just as the PCs can grow and learn so can the world.

It is a good way to keep the party in check and a good way to allow more immersion within the game.

[TheSethGrey]

There are 2 feats you can take. One grants proficiency on Con saves and the other grants advantage to Con saves with concentration. Together they give you a 97.75% chance to save when you take less than 21 damage and that's with a +0 Con mod.

Are feats replaced though when you transform? Because the monster stat block replaces your own.

[Twelvetrees]

I believe feats are replaced, as you substitute them for ability score increases, which are part of your stats.

[1of3]

Yes. Everything except Int,Cha,Wis and Alignment is replaced by Polymorph.

[hawklost]

Yes. Everything except Int,Cha,Wis and Alignment is replaced by Polymorph.

You might want to read 5e Polymorph. All stats, including Mental stats are changed to the polymorphed creature.

[pwykersotz]

You might want to read 5e Polymorph. All stats, including Mental stats are changed to the polymorphed creature.

Yep, only the 9th level spell Shapechange allows you to retain mental stats (as far as I can remember).

[Lokiare]

Unfortunately I don't have access to the PHB so I have to go on second and third hand knowledge.

Wait so they gain all the abilities of the new creature? So they gain things like the spells if they polymorph into a creature with spells? Is it limited to beast types like in the play test or is it any creature in the MM?

[pwykersotz]

Unfortunately I don't have access to the PHB so I have to go on second and third hand knowledge.

Wait so they gain all the abilities of the new creature? So they gain things like the spells if they polymorph into a creature with spells? Is it limited to beast types like in the play test or is it any creature in the MM?

Polymorph the 4th level spell is limited to beasts. True Polymorph and Shapechange the 9th level spells are creatures.

True Polymorph has the lovely clause that the creature's 'game statistics' are replaced by the new creature. So turning into the new creature erases everything you were.

Shapechange has the same clause and also says you keep your mental ability scores, your alignment and personality, and your skill and save proficiencies, so it calls out exceptions. You also don't get legendary or lair actions.

True Polymorph seems a bit odd and I'm not sure how to interpret it. It's permenent duration if focused on for an hour, but it also says that
The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you oncentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent. I think that means that you can still be reverted by dropping to 0. In addition though, Polymorph doesn't call out Legendary or Lair actions, so that's pretty sick.

[Lokiare]

Polymorph the 4th level spell is limited to beasts. True Polymorph and Shapechange the 9th level spells are creatures.

True Polymorph has the lovely clause that the creature's 'game statistics' are replaced by the new creature. So turning into the new creature erases everything you were.

Shapechange has the same clause and also says you keep your mental ability scores, your alignment and personality, and your skill and save proficiencies, so it calls out exceptions. You also don't get legendary or lair actions.

True Polymorph seems a bit odd and I'm not sure how to interpret it. It's permenent duration if focused on for an hour, but it also says that I think that means that you can still be reverted by dropping to 0. In addition though, Polymorph doesn't call out Legendary or Lair actions, so that's pretty sick.

Yes, yes it is.

[Fable Wright]

True Polymorph seems a bit odd and I'm not sure how to interpret it. It's permenent duration if focused on for an hour, but it also says that I think that means that you can still be reverted by dropping to 0. In addition though, Polymorph doesn't call out Legendary or Lair actions, so that's pretty sick.
Problem is, though, will there be any Legendary beasts with Lair actions?

[pwykersotz]

Problem is, though, will there be any Legendary beasts with Lair actions?

Dragons. True Polymorph isn't limited to Beasts. It just says 'creature'.

[Gnomes2169]

Dragons. True Polymorph isn't limited to Beasts. It just says 'creature'.

Unfortunately, it also destroys your mental scores, memories and personality and sets you to "Default dragon of X color", since unlike Shapeshift you don't get to keep those and it makes you that creature... But yeah, if you wanted your character to become an adult dragon of X color forever as their "happy ending", you could get the wizard to True Poly you.

(Note, since the spell requires concentration but destroys the mind (temporarily), the wizard cannot cast it on him/ herself... As their concentration would sort of be broken by being rewritten into that of a dragon, and True Poly would instantly end.)

(Also note, no sane DM will let the fighter keep their character sheet if they get the wizard to true poly them into a dragon. That would be silly and campaign breaking. :p)

[pwykersotz]

Unfortunately, it also destroys your mental scores, memories and personality and sets you to "Default dragon of X color", since unlike Shapeshift you don't get to keep those and it makes you that creature... But yeah, if you wanted your character to become an adult dragon of X color forever as their "happy ending", you could get the wizard to True Poly you.

(Note, since the spell requires concentration but destroys the mind (temporarily), the wizard cannot cast it on him/ herself... As their concentration would sort of be broken by being rewritten into that of a dragon, and True Poly would instantly end.)

(Also note, no sane DM will let the fighter keep their character sheet if they get the wizard to true poly them into a dragon. That would be silly and campaign breaking. :p)

Uhh...actually you RETAIN your personality and alignment. You're right, it says nothing about memories, I think it's technically a DM call since we have no rules either way.

Edit: Due to the complexity of giving entirely new memories and the theme of the spell not matching this at all, I'd be inclined to say memory transferred. Not saying it's not broken or that it couldn't be easily seen another way, that's just my call.

[da_chicken]

IMO, when you cast Polymorph or True Polymorph you take your character sheet, set it aside, and then use the stat block of the monster instead until the spell ends or you run out of HP. You don't keep any mechanics from your normal form beyond alignment and personality (and memory, presumably) but you get all the mechanics from the new form entirely. All equipment merges, even if the new form could use it.

That's what, "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions," means. You can only everything the new form can do, but you can only do what the new form can do. If you as a Wizard cast True Polymorph and turn into a Balor, well you lose Wizard spellcasting because Balors don't cast Wizard spells. They have Balor spellcasting abilities that you get instead. You are, outside your wonky alignment and predilection for concentration, indistinguishable from an average Balor.

Wild Shape, Animal Shapes, and Shapechange, on the other hand, are complicated as hell. You don't change mental stats, you take sum of the best skill and save proficiencies, you explicitly lose Spellcasting but can maintain concentration on existent spells, you maintain all class and race benefits except when it's a special sense (i.e., darkvision) unless the new form has it as well, and your equipment can merge but you can also decide that you don't want it to merge in which case you can wear it or it drops to the ground if the DM says you can't wear it.

Other than the additional types, I don't see any difference between Polymorph and True Polymorph, or Wild Shape and Shapechange. Animal Shapes has some shortened wording, but I haven't read it closely enough to see if it varies much.

[Gnomes2169]

Uhh...actually you RETAIN your personality and alignment. You're right, it says nothing about memories, I think it's technically a DM call since we have no rules either way.

Edit: Due to the complexity of giving entirely new memories and the theme of the spell not matching this at all, I'd be inclined to say memory transferred. Not saying it's not broken or that it couldn't be easily seen another way, that's just my call.

I see True Poly as more of an offensive cursing spell, so the idea that a wizard can use it to dragon the fighter makes me tilt my head a bit, I'll be honest... Seeing as it basically overides all of your character/ typical creature abilities, and can eventually force you to be that creature forever, one would think that you force a dragon to be a squirrel instead of the other way around.

(Also, an argument could be made for memory shattering, since True Poly changes your mental scores and is thus obviously messing with your mind... But that's neither here nor there)

I guess I'm too used to Baelful Poly from previous editions and see True Poly as a more appropriately leveled version of it... :P

[TripleD]

Regarding mental change, does this mean you have to relinquish control of your character?

I mean, if the character is no longer "you" then isn't it up to the DM to decide what, for example, a dire bear would do in your situation?

[pwykersotz]

Regarding mental change, does this mean you have to relinquish control of your character?

I mean, if the character is no longer "you" then isn't it up to the DM to decide what, for example, a dire bear would do in your situation?

If anyone here has read Voyage of the Dawn Treader, think Eustace when he put on the armband. Unfortunately, in the absence of guidelines in this regard, all tables will come up with their own rulings.

[hawklost]

Regarding mental change, does this mean you have to relinquish control of your character?

I mean, if the character is no longer "you" then isn't it up to the DM to decide what, for example, a dire bear would do in your situation?

The answer is simple but so complex. It is both yes and no. Yes if your DM decides it plays that way. No if your DM decides it plays that way.

[Lokiare]

If they keep their mind, why not capture goblins, charm or dominate them and then polymorph them into dragons or whatever?

This edition is just as broken as 3.5E was. There is no balance to be had here.

[da_chicken]

If they keep their mind, why not capture goblins, charm or dominate them and then polymorph them into dragons or whatever?

Because you're limited by the challenge rating or (if it's a PC) the level of the target. The only dragon you can turn a Goblin into is a Pseudodragon.

[Lokiare]

Because you're limited by the challenge rating or (if it's a PC) the level of the target. The only dragon you can turn a Goblin into is a Pseudodragon.

Fine how about ogres or some other lower CR creature?

[Fable Wright]

Fine how about ogres or some other lower CR creature?
Then you'd be able to convert them into any dragon you can find with the same or lower CR.

[da_chicken]

Fine how about ogres or some other lower CR creature?

Whatever challenge or level the target has is the maximum challenge the new form is allowed to have. Cast it on a Goblin? Challenge 1/4 or less. Cast it on an Ogre? Challenge 2 or less. Cast it on a level 10 Rogue? Challenge 10 or less, which would allow you to turn him into at least a Young Green Dragon. Of course, that takes True Polymorph, a 9th level spell, since Polymorph and Animal Shapes are limited to beasts.

[obryn]

Turning the Fighter into a dragon is a rather major boost.

[da_chicken]

Turning the Fighter into a dragon is a rather major boost.

Of course it is. It's a 9th level spell. It's competing with Meteor Swarm, and it suffers from the Concentration drawback. Additionally, it replaces all the Fighter's attacks and actions with those of a dragon -- he can't choose to use his longbow or magical greatsword enhanced by a belt of giant strength, or any other equipment, class features, racial features, or feats -- so it's only actually adding the delta of the two. The Fighter is also now huge, occupying a 15 x 15 foot area, or larger.

[obryn]

Of course it is. It's a 9th level spell. It's competing with Meteor Swarm, and it suffers from the Concentration drawback. Additionally, it replaces all the Fighter's attacks and actions with those of a dragon -- he can't choose to use his longbow or magical greatsword enhanced by a belt of giant strength, or any other equipment, class features, racial features, or feats -- so it's only actually adding the delta of the two. The Fighter is also now huge, occupying a 15 x 15 foot area, or larger.
It's permanent if you Concentrate long enough, though.

[HorridElemental]

It's permanent if you Concentrate long enough, though.

High level games just got a bit more fun...

Balor, Dragon, Deva, and Storm Giant walk into a bar...

[Person_Man]

Seems very odd that the Polymorph related rules weren't play-tested a lot. They were one of the biggest and most well known known issues with every non-4E editions of the game. Some players want the fantastic element of magic that you to transform into a dragon or whatnot. Other players hate the brokenness of it. Seems like a non-broken version must exist somewhere in the universe.


"It's 9th level magic" is not an excuse for being broken. Yes, you can only do it once or twice per day. But it still shouldn't be something that is dramatically better then what non-magic using characters can do at 17th-20th levels. Or if it is dramatically better, then it needs to be very temporary (I can only blow up one city per day?) so that being able to do it once or twice per day is a meaningful limitation. For example, I've got no problem with Meteor Swarm, but I hate how Foresight is an 8 hour non-Concentration spell that's better then any benefit a Fighter gets. It doesn't even have some sort of outwardly "only magic users could possibly do this" justification. It's just pure "you notice stuff and get Advantage to basically everything all the time and can't be surprised."

[obryn]

Seems very odd that the Polymorph related rules weren't play-tested a lot. They were one of the biggest and most well known known issues with every non-4E editions of the game. Some players want the fantastic element of magic that you to transform into a dragon or whatnot. Other players hate the brokenness of it. Seems like a non-broken version must exist somewhere in the universe.

"It's 9th level magic" is not an excuse for being broken. Yes, you can only do it once or twice per day. But it still shouldn't be something that is dramatically better then what non-magic using characters can do at 17th-20th levels. Or if it is dramatically better, then it needs to be very temporary (I can only blow up one city per day?) so that being able to do it once or twice per day is a meaningful limitation. For example, I've got no problem with Meteor Swarm, but I hate how Foresight is an 8 hour non-Concentration spell that's better then any benefit a Fighter gets. It doesn't even have some sort of outwardly "only magic users could possibly do this" justification. It's just pure "you notice stuff and get Advantage to basically everything all the time and can't be surprised."
I agree with all of this, here. I mean, transforming Gutboy Barrelhouse permanently into a big dragon is a big step up on basically all of a Fighter's primary duties. (Need to get him into a dungeon? No problem! Another spell will un-dragon him!)

[Z3ro]

For example, I've got no problem with Meteor Swarm, but I hate how Foresight is an 8 hour non-Concentration spell that's better then any benefit a Fighter gets. It doesn't even have some sort of outwardly "only magic users could possibly do this" justification. It's just pure "you notice stuff and get Advantage to basically everything all the time and can't be surprised."

I've seen a lot of people proclaiming that foresight is an extremely powerful spell, possibly the best buff wizards get, and I'm not sure at this point. I mean, yeah, it is a powerful buff, but when you compare it to the opportunity cost of casting it, namely that you can't cast another 9th level spell (like the being discusses shapechange), I don't see it being prepared that often. In specific circumstances, maybe (we're hunting down an assassin today), but as a general rule, I doubt it. Time and high-level play will tell, but I don't think it's the automatic spell lots of people think it is.

[obryn]

I've seen a lot of people proclaiming that foresight is an extremely powerful spell, possibly the best buff wizards get, and I'm not sure at this point. I mean, yeah, it is a powerful buff, but when you compare it to the opportunity cost of casting it, namely that you can't cast another 9th level spell (like the being discusses shapechange), I don't see it being prepared that often. In specific circumstances, maybe (we're hunting down an assassin today), but as a general rule, I doubt it. Time and high-level play will tell, but I don't think it's the automatic spell lots of people think it is.
I think his point was that, at that level, there's nothing the guy swinging the sword around can do that comes even close. (ooooh, I got my 9th-least-favorite maneuver and can get back one whole expertise die at the start of combat, oooh.) It's back to magic superiority, and that's not what everyone wants from D&D.

[Z3ro]

I think his point was that, at that level, there's nothing the guy swinging the sword around can do that comes even close. (ooooh, I got my 9th-least-favorite maneuver and can get back one whole expertise die at the start of combat, oooh.) It's back to magic superiority, and that's not what everyone wants from D&D.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not worried about the balance of a spell that will almost never get used. Heck, the fact that the magic resource system is so tightly regulated that a spell better than any ability a fighter gets will hardly ever be prepared (my projection) speaks to how much better the design is. Personally, I don't have a problem with magic-users dominating in short bursts; that's the appeal of the class. It's when you can do it all day, every day, 3.x style, that it becomes a problem.

[Person_Man]

To agree with obryn, I'm firmly in the "every class should get awesome stuff" camp.

You are correct that Foresight is less awesome then many other 9th level options. But by itself it is more awesome then anything any non-spellcaster gets, even though its a mediocre 9th level spell option that basically just grants numerical bonuses and immunity to being surprised.

If your argument is "Fighters shouldn't be able to do magical stuff, because they're not magical" I totally understand. I'm not arguing that Fighters should be able to Polymorph. But if your argument is "lets all just accept that Fighters will comparatively suck at high levels" I disagree. The numerical bonuses and conditions gained by high level spellcasters shouldn't be better then those gained by non-casters.

On the plus side, the system is flexible enough that this problem can easily be patched with supplements and/or modules. But right now, just based on my play tests and the Basic boxed game and how people are currently discussing the high level rules (which I won't own until Tuesday when Amazon delivers it) it seems like default mid-high level 5E gameplay replicates most of the same problems of mid-high level 1E/2E/3E/PF gameplay. (Though exactly when the E6ish cutoff occurs is likely to be later then in previous editions).

[Z3ro]

If your argument is "Fighters shouldn't be able to do magical stuff, because they're not magical" I totally understand. I'm not arguing that Fighters should be able to Polymorph. But if your argument is "lets all just accept that Fighters will comparatively suck at high levels" I disagree. The numerical bonuses and conditions gained by high level spellcasters shouldn't be better then those gained by non-casters.

I didn't posit one way or the other. Just pointing out that it's not that great of a spell compared to other options, of which a wizard only gets one.



On the plus side, the system is flexible enough that this problem can easily be patched with supplements and/or modules. But right now, just based on my play tests and the Basic boxed game and how people are currently discussing the high level rules (which I won't own until Tuesday when Amazon delivers it) it seems like default mid-high level 5E gameplay replicates most of the same problems of mid-high level 1E/2E/3E/PF gameplay. (Though exactly when the E6ish cutoff occurs is likely to be later then in previous editions).

My group tried two brief sessions with the full rules, at level one and one at level twelve. The level twelve session was interesting and focused almost entirely on combat. The wizard certainly shined when he wanted to, but didn't dominate the way he would have in 3.x. Much more effort went into managing resources, and much greater care was given to when a particular spell was cast than in previous editions.

[obryn]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not worried about the balance of a spell that will almost never get used. Heck, the fact that the magic resource system is so tightly regulated that a spell better than any ability a fighter gets will hardly ever be prepared (my projection) speaks to how much better the design is. Personally, I don't have a problem with magic-users dominating in short bursts; that's the appeal of the class. It's when you can do it all day, every day, 3.x style, that it becomes a problem.
Well, tag-teaming with Person_Man here, how about a quick thought experiment.

17th-level Character A and 17th-level Character B have both just been permanently transformed into Adult Red Dragons through the magic of True Polymorph. Question: Was this a general improvement over their previous capabilities, or a general downgrade? Which character gains more, and which loses more, speaking of general all-around utility to the party?

For reference, here's the Adult Red Dragon, recently posted on WotC Twitter.


http://i.imgur.com/hhjCLep.jpg

[Person_Man]

My group tried two brief sessions with the full rules, at level one and one at level twelve. The level twelve session was interesting and focused almost entirely on combat. The wizard certainly shined when he wanted to, but didn't dominate the way he would have in 3.x. Much more effort went into managing resources, and much greater care was given to when a particular spell was cast than in previous editions.

Good to know. It seems like a lot rests on player psychology.

If players are afraid that they need to hold onto their spells, then they're less likely to use them, and thus less likely to dominate the game with them. (Although this can be over done. For example, when I play RPG video games I tend to hoard limited use potions, scrolls, wands, etc. I assume I'll need them for same critical boss fight or whatever, and save scum my way through combats in order to avoid using them. But in most cases I end up never using them. I blame traumatic experiences in college playing Megaman).

If players have a munchkin mentality and are trying to "win" the game, they're more likely to abuse options like Polymorph, which (in its current form) is really more appropriate to trying to overcome narrative obstacles instead of combat. (Works fine if your player uses Polymorph to turn into a sparrow to spy on the BBEG, sorta breaks the game if he uses it to turn the Fighter into a dragon to eat the BBEG. How is the DM supposed to come up with a good mix of easy, balanced, and challenging combat encounters if he can't predict the power level of the party?)

A good DM and non-jerk players go a long way to fixing any rules. But I was hoping that there would be few such landmines in 5E.

[Z3ro]

Well, tag-teaming with Person_Man here, how about a quick thought experiment.

17th-level Character A and 17th-level Character B have both just been permanently transformed into Adult Red Dragons through the magic of True Polymorph. Question: Was this a general improvement over their previous capabilities, or a general downgrade? Which character gains more, and which loses more, speaking of general all-around utility to the party?

For reference, here's the Adult Red Dragon, recently posted on WotC Twitter.


http://i.imgur.com/hhjCLep.jpg


I'm...unclear what point you're attempting to make. A wizard casting a buff on a fighter is great; it's a win-win for the party, so I'm not sure you're even addressing my point about short-burst powers.

[obryn]

I'm...unclear what point you're attempting to make. A wizard casting a buff on a fighter is great; it's a win-win for the party, so I'm not sure you're even addressing my point about short-burst powers.
What about casting it on the wizard?

[Demonic Spoon]

Do polymorphed players get the benefits of stuff like legendary resistance? They probably shouldn't.

[Z3ro]

A good DM and non-jerk players go a long way to fixing any rules. But I was hoping that there would be few such landmines in 5E.

I don't know; it seems to me (having only read the rules and played two brief sessions) that this edition has the fewest such pitfalls of any D&D edition (I didn't play much 4e, so I'm say 1, 2, and 3). There are problems, sure, but I never expected Wotc to eliminate every problem. That would probably be too much to ask for from a good company, let alone Wotc.

[Z3ro]

What about casting it on the wizard?

Well, I hope he doesn't like casting spells, because True Polymorph replaces all game statistics and can't cast it's own spells, so now they're just a fighter+. Don't see that as an improvement on pure wizard.

[obryn]

Well, I hope he doesn't like casting spells, because True Polymorph replaces all game statistics and can't cast it's own spells, so now they're just a fighter+. Don't see that as an improvement on pure wizard.
Exactly. That's the point.

[Z3ro]

Exactly. That's the point.

I'm still not seeing the point; not trying to be dense here but I really don't understand what you're trying to demonstrate, or how it tied into the original point I made.

[Scirocco]

obryn is saying that if the Wizard intentionally gimps themselves by forever turning themselves into a dragon, they've still obsoleted the fighter.

[obryn]

I'm still not seeing the point; not trying to be dense here but I really don't understand what you're trying to demonstrate, or how it tied into the original point I made.
The basic problem ties into the earlier point regarding Fighters getting considerably less interesting (and weaker) stuff than casters at higher levels, not with the "short burst" claim.

My point is that if the Fighter gets a strict upgrade by switching into a Red Dragon (despite losing everything non-dragonish) while a Wizard loses a lot by switching into a Red Dragon (ditto), there's maybe something wacky about the balance at high levels.

e:

obryn is saying that if the Wizard intentionally gimps themselves by forever turning themselves into a dragon, they've still obsoleted the fighter.
And yes, this.

[Muenster Man]

I think the problem with the example is that turning a fighter into a dragon takes the fighter's strength and improves it. Doing the same for a wizard takes away their strength (spellcasting) and basically makes them a fighter+. Of course the wizard is going to lose more than the fighter will. If there was a spellcasting monster equivalent to the dragon, then that would be a good example. High level wizards can do a lot of things well that fighters can't, but polymorphing both of them into the same dragon isn't a good example of why.

[Z3ro]

obryn is saying that if the Wizard intentionally gimps themselves by forever turning themselves into a dragon, they've still obsoleted the fighter.

I don't think it makes the fighter obsolete; for one, having multiple damage dealers in the party is totally fine. For another, the dragon, based on pure melee (and it really only has that and a breath weapon), is doing similar damage a round compared to an equivalent level fighter.


The basic problem ties into the earlier point regarding Fighters getting considerably less interesting (and weaker) stuff than casters at higher levels, not with the "short burst" claim.

My point is that if the Fighter gets a strict upgrade by switching into a Red Dragon (despite losing everything non-dragonish) while a Wizard loses a lot by switching into a Red Dragon (ditto), there's maybe something wacky about the balance at high levels.

e:

And yes, this.

Just wanted to make sure it wasn't related to my burst claim, as it made no sense and didn't want to think I missed something, thanks for clarifying.

Though I would argue that a wizard does get a combat upgrade by switching into a dragon, but loses overall utility (what the original quesiton was about).

[Grynning]

I don't think it makes the fighter obsolete; for one, having multiple damage dealers in the party is totally fine. For another, the dragon, based on pure melee (and it really only has that and a breath weapon), is doing similar damage a round compared to an equivalent level fighter.


An adult dragon's melee attacks may be about the same as a fighter's with a +3 greatsword, but the breath weapon is kind of a big deal, as is frightful presence, the huge reach advantage, and flight. The dragon's HP is also considerably higher than a fighter's would be.
The problem here is that the Wizard can replace an entire class with a single spell. Even burning a 9th level slot for this (which it could use on an ally, btw, and make it permanent) the wizard still has all their other potent spell slots to wreck face with afterwards. Essentially, at level 17, the Wizard might as well permanently turn all their non-caster allies into Dragons (or some other equally badass form from the MM) before they do any more adventuring.

This was the problem with high level spellcasting in 3.x, and it's still a big problem here.

[Z3ro]

An adult dragon's melee attacks may be about the same as a fighter's with a +3 greatsword, but the breath weapon is kind of a big deal, as is frightful presence, the huge reach advantage, and flight. The dragon's HP is also considerably higher than a fighter's would be.
The problem here is that the Wizard can replace an entire class with a single spell. Even burning a 9th level slot for this (which it could use on an ally, btw, and make it permanent) the wizard still has all their other potent spell slots to wreck face with afterwards. Essentially, at level 17, the Wizard might as well permanently turn all their non-caster allies into Dragons (or some other equally badass form from the MM) before they do any more adventuring.

This was the problem with high level spellcasting in 3.x, and it's still a big problem here.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I don't see true polymorph as any different than any other buff (to scale), except the permanent duration. Could the wizard turn the whole party into dragons? Yes, and that would be awesome! It really gives the party options.

The really nice part about true polymorph in particular is it is largely useless for the wizard to cast on himself, incentivizing him to buff the party instead. That's a win-win in my book; wizard gets cool spell, fighter gets to be a dragon, everyone's happy.

And really, I guess it just comes down to perception. For me, if I was playing and a wizard turned me into a dragon, I would be thinking "Cool I'm a dragon!" not "man, that wizard is cool, he turned me into a dragon". It's the same as any other buff; sure, you might only have killed that enemy because of the extra damage boost you got from the caster, but YOU killed the enemy. It's all in how you peceive it.

[obryn]

An adult dragon's melee attacks may be about the same as a fighter's with a +3 greatsword, but the breath weapon is kind of a big deal, as is frightful presence, the huge reach advantage, and flight. The dragon's HP is also considerably higher than a fighter's would be.
The problem here is that the Wizard can replace an entire class with a single spell. Even burning a 9th level slot for this (which it could use on an ally, btw, and make it permanent) the wizard still has all their other potent spell slots to wreck face with afterwards. Essentially, at level 17, the Wizard might as well permanently turn all their non-caster allies into Dragons (or some other equally badass form from the MM) before they do any more adventuring.

This was the problem with high level spellcasting in 3.x, and it's still a big problem here.
yyyyep. And all-around better saves, too.

Let's not forget the Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistance. Unless there's something excluding those? Some blurb somewhere about Legendary stuff not getting included during a polymorph? Otherwise, they seem to be part of the stat block...


We will have to agree to disagree.

I don't see true polymorph as any different than any other buff (to scale), except the permanent duration. Could the wizard turn the whole party into dragons? Yes, and that would be awesome! It really gives the party options.

And really, I guess it just comes down to perception. For me, if I was playing and a wizard turned me into a dragon, I would be thinking "Cool I'm a dragon!" not "man, that wizard is cool, he turned me into a dragon". It's the same as any other buff; sure, you might only have killed that enemy because of the extra damage boost you got from the caster, but YOU killed the enemy. It's all in how you peceive it.
The problem being, of course, that you couldn't be this awesome as a Fighter.

Even if you turned yourself into a Dragon instead of the Wizard doing it, you still have very little reason to be a Fighter anymore, and that's kinda sad.

[Grynning]

Let's not forget the Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistance. Unless there's something excluding those? Some blurb somewhere about Legendary stuff not getting included during a polymorph? Otherwise, they seem to be part of the stat block...

Wild Shape calls out that you can't use legendary or lair actions, but Polymorph does not. I imagine that will be in the errata at least.

[Z3ro]

Even if you turned yourself into a Dragon instead of the Wizard doing it, you still have very little reason to be a Fighter anymore, and that's kinda sad.

This I have to strenously disagree with. I mean, logistics alone give you a reason to be a fighter. Trying going back to town to collect a reward as a huge red dragon, see how well that goes.

But not only that, the dragon is a very limited concept that you have to take whole-hog. Prefer dex fighters? Too bad, you're a dragon. Want some interesting skills, too bad, dragons don't have them. Want to fit into a medium sized tunnell? Too bad, you're a dragon.

Or compare to an eldritch knight. Want to cast spells? Can't, you're a dragon. Want to use maneuvers? Again, can't. Frankly, once you hit 20, even the champion is laying a lot of boom that the dragon will have trouble keeping up with (8x attacks w/action surge, 18-20 crit=ouch).

Which is not to say being a dragon wouldn't be awesome. Frankly, I'm happy that 5e gives a straightforward way for a character to be one with all kinds of penalties. But choosing to be one every high-level campaign? I don't think it's the automatic desicision it seems to be.

[obryn]

Wild Shape calls out that you can't use legendary or lair actions, but Polymorph does not. I imagine that will be in the errata at least.
Yeah, it also might be in the Monster Manual. Or it might be nowhere, for all we know.

I'd tweet @mearls, but I have a feeling he'd just tell us it's up to the DM to fix the rules again.


But not only that, the dragon is a very limited concept that you have to take whole-hog. Prefer dex fighters? Too bad, you're a dragon. Want some interesting skills, too bad, dragons don't have them. Want to fit into a medium sized tunnell? Too bad, you're a dragon.
Well, fortunately enough, the Polymorph spell exists for those troublesome and embarrassing moments when you can't fit into a dungeon! :smallbiggrin:

[Z3ro]

Well, fortunately enough, the Polymorph spell exists for those troublesome and embarrassing moments when you can't fit into a dungeon! :smallbiggrin:

Alright, I laughed at that one.

[Grynning]

To be frank, you're over-valuing the damage of all of the fighter builds you laid out. In terms of pure DPR, the dragon wins over just about everything but a very well optimized great weapon fighter, and again, you're ignoring the much greater survivability they have. This isn't opinion, it's just math.

Granted, the role-play consequences of being a dragon are a limitation...sort of. However, we're talking about game balance, not RP. The Wizard could just as easily transform a hireling or something, and still trivialize an encounter that should let the Fighter shine more. The problem isn't that the Wizard can turn people into dragons per se, it's that turning them into a dragon is generally superior than having them be there as their own class. We're also sticking to just dragons as the example, but if history holds true, there will be other CR 17-20 monsters with equal or possibly greater power than the dragon which could affect the game even more by giving a party access to those forms.

On a related note, Fighters (and other non full-casters) could have been given much more in terms of abilities to make them as fun and versatile as a caster. I still like them a lot, and overall this is probably still my favorite edition, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the mathematical reality that certain classes just do less than others by default.

[Demonic Spoon]

Granted, the role-play consequences of being a dragon are a limitation...sort of. However, we're talking about game balance, not RP. The Wizard could just as easily transform a hireling or something, and still trivialize an encounter that should let the Fighter shine more. The problem isn't that the Wizard can turn people into dragons per se, it's that turning them into a dragon is generally superior than having them be there as their own class. We're also sticking to just dragons as the example, but if history holds true, there will be other CR 17-20 monsters with equal or possibly greater power than the dragon which could affect the game even more by giving a party access to those forms.


The role play consequences aren't even that great. Could the wizard not just turn the fighter back into a human when done with the adventure?

Go out > polymorph > Fight stuff, do heroic things, etc > return to safe place, rest for a day > polymorph back.

[Person_Man]

I don't know; it seems to me (having only read the rules and played two brief sessions) that this edition has the fewest such pitfalls of any D&D edition (I didn't play much 4e, so I'm say 1, 2, and 3). There are problems, sure, but I never expected Wotc to eliminate every problem. That would probably be too much to ask for from a good company, let alone Wotc.

Oh, I certainly agree that on first read, 5E appears to have far fewer nuclear weapons and/or landmines (or whatever metaphor you prefer for basic design problems or potentially game braking option) then 1E, 2E, or 3E.

4E PHB was very balanced, and the core only Wizard was even arguably the weakest class. 4E's primary issue was that it had so many differences from previous editions that a large number of D&D players preferred to stick with some previous edition or Pathfinder instead of migrating to 4E.

That's why 5E's primary design mentality was "what did players enjoy in 2E or 3E." It's an attempt to recapture those players. Which, in all fairness, includes me. I participated in the play tests, bought the Basic boxed game, and bought the (highly discounted) PHB. I'm not sure I'll end up spending hundreds of dollars on 5E splat as I did for 2E and 3.0/3.5/PF. But so far WotC's marketing strategy seems to have worked on me, at least.

I'm just surprised that this particularly well known and talked about issue was not play tested to death and removed from 5E.

So it was either a design oversight ("Wow, writing balanced rules is hard. Let's just leave it broken/unresolved like it was in previous editions. Don't worry, DMs will fix it...") or WotC received a sufficiently large amount of feedback from play testers who liked the old version and included it to cater to them.

[PinkysBrain]

I'm...unclear what point you're attempting to make. A wizard casting a buff on a fighter is great; it's a win-win for the party, so I'm not sure you're even addressing my point about short-burst powers.

Hey, you played the wrong class for 17 levels, let me fix that for you ... that's not a buff, that's a FU.

[Grynning]

It is puzzling, especially since they cribbed heavily from Pathfinder in some aspects but not when it came to polymorphing (which PF handles much better as just a set of static buffs with very limited access to the other creature's abilities). I get that they wanted it to involve less math, but it's still a pretty big oversight. I mean, it's not hard to understand that it may be a tad unbalanced to let characters turn into creatures that are designed to take on a party of 5 by themselves.

[Sartharina]

Turning the Fighter into a dragon is a rather major boost.

He loses his stats, his weapon proficiencies, his combat style, his second wind, his Battle Master maneuvers, his feats, his Action Surge, his extra attacks... and every other class feature he had.

[Grynning]

He loses his stats, his weapon proficiencies, his combat style, his second wind, his Battle Master maneuvers, his feats, his Action Surge, his extra attacks... and every other class feature he had.

Yeah, but he needs none of those things anymore, because he now does as much or more damage as he would have before, can fly, has 10 to 20 ft reach on all his attacks, can breathe fire, has frightful presence, twice as many HP, and better saves, and possibly has legendary resistance and legendary actions depending on your DM's reading of those rules.

Correction on the reach thing, I was getting mixed up with the ancient dragon. Only the head and tail have reach.

In case people haven't seen it:
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