Monsters to threaten a 20th level party

[molten_dragon]

I'm looking for a monster that can pose a threat to a party of moderately well optimized 20th level characters that isn't a caster. Some spell-like abilities are fine, but nothing that can actually cast spells (so no dragons, no solars).

Pathfinder or 3.5 is okay. CR is flexible, but the lower the CR that can pose a threat, the more impressed I'll be.

[bekeleven]

If you have four optimized 20th level characters, you're not going to threaten them with noncasters. The most you can do is make trick encounters that end in draws if they don't figure out the enemy weakness. You could always go SLA spam, like a Balor flanked by the hordes of hell.

That said, it depends heavily on the party. Are they... optimized hexblades, marshals and bards with standard WBL? Are they optimized Monks? Are they optimized for all having the best disguise checks? "Optimized party" says very little when you examine it.

For the record, the first paragraph assumed something like... Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Arcane Ooze (MM3), CR 9. You could advance it to 45 HD (Gargantuan) and given the elite array for a CR 18, but that's completely unnecessary. Put it in an environment that favors it for another +1 CR - it's stretched itself out extremely thin in a narrow crack where the floor meets the wall, all throughout the entire dungeon. Every round they're inside they're having spells siphoned from them. The floor is covered in a few inches of extremely murky water so it always has total concealment from them, effectively granting it invisibility that can't be overcome by any type of vision. Switch its feats around, give it Darkstalker in LoM, and they'll have to make an infinite-difficulty Spot check to notice it with most non-vision senses.

[Lightlawbliss]

give a creature with regeneration the spell favor of the martyr (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/favor-martyr--4479/). Add in some counter mesures to your groups favorite dispel and watch them try to beat it. The only downside is you need to get some sort of item and UMD to pull it off as an evil character, but that's why the big bad isn't there when the PCs get to that room.

edit: you could use this on a Kyton to really annoy them (it's a CR 6 (beffore buffs) they can't hurt without the right kind of weapon). Bonus points if the ubercharger trys to nuke it. Don't use if the party can easily bypass.

[Snowbluff]

Arcane Ooze (MM3), CR 9. You could advance it to 45 HD (Gargantuan) and given the elite array for a CR 18, but that's completely unnecessary. Put it in an environment that favors it for another +1 CR - it's stretched itself out extremely thin in a narrow crack where the floor meets the wall, all throughout the entire dungeon. Every round they're inside they're having spells siphoned from them. The floor is covered in a few inches of extremely murky water so it always has total concealment from them, effectively granting it invisibility that can't be overcome by any type of vision. Switch its feats around, give it Darkstalker in LoM, and they'll have to make an infinite-difficulty Spot check to notice it with most non-vision senses.
Oh, I know this! "What's going on?" *rolls dungeoneering*

EDIT: I reread the ooze. All this would do is make the Arcane Caster sit out for a session to do something worthwhile. The other 3 members would be totally uninteresting and the druid might just freeze the water.

[Demidos]

Assuming a magic intensive party -- One or a couple half-golems (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halfgolem.shtml) with extended reach abilities (read spiked chain) and the mageslayer chain. By level 15 or so they can bump their reach up to ~80 feet (specially if you play partial or full gestalt) with abberant feats.

Summary of benefits --
magic immune
slashing/piercing damage immune (immune to 90% of PCs!)

any casting to escape provokes if within a huge radius

hiding can make that even more difficult for our intrepid heroes to target these enemies.

Players will murder you when they realize that using LA buyoff, technically adding the half golem template doesnt even increase the enemy's CR

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh, I know this! "What's going on?" *rolls dungeoneering*

EDIT: I reread the ooze. All this would do is make the Arcane Caster sit out for a session to do something worthwhile. The other 3 members would be totally uninteresting and the druid might just freeze the water.

Fine then....

This dragon lair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322346-Volcanic-mountain-cavern-style-dungeon-as-red-dragon-lair#2), just give the dragon the Wyrm of War archetype including replacing his Sorcerer spellcasting (except a few choice buffs maybe) with ToB maneuvers and stances.

An alternative would be something like this dragon lair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348374-Optimizing-excercise-Let-s-optimize-a-Dragon#28), scaled up a bit. My first post in that thread is also quite challenging, though it's heavily reliant on spellcasting.

Yet another alternative would be an (advanced) Iron Golem in a room with Permanencied Wall of Fire multiple times, preferably with Searing Spell added on. Include something to thwart dispelling the walls of fire, such as a Limited Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#limitedMagic) planar trait prevents all non-fire spells from functioning at all.

This encounter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358732-I-need-a-lot-of-easily-playable-builds#4), include an area where they need to swim underwater of course.

"Not a spellcaster" is much too vague, it doesn't inspire any ideas on its own except an anti-caster encounter like the Arcane Ooze. Where are they going to find this encounter? What other creatures are in the area that it would be friends or at least not-enemies with? Is there anything in particular that you want this opponent to do, or any particular PC capabilities you want it to just so happen to have a defense against?

[Mr Adventurer]

Players will murder you when they realize that using LA buyoff, technically adding the half golem template doesnt even increase the enemy's CR

LA buyoff doesn't affect the CR adjustment of a template.

[bekeleven]

Put it in an environment that favors it for another +1 CR - it's stretched itself out extremely thin in a narrow crack where the floor meets the wall, all throughout the entire dungeon.
This isn't something the ooze type, or the arcane ooze itself, can do. They're creatures, and take up creature space.

All you've done is make an annoying trap that makes the party waste some divination spells, or possibly leave the dungeon, rest for 8 hours, and THEN waste some divination spells.

It's not even really an encounter. If it were, as soon as they got within 10 feet of a wall, the ooze would attack them ("An arcane ooze attacks by grabbing and squeezing its prey. It moves instinctively toward the nearest creature capable of casting arcane spells."). It's just... you're trying to make an unfavorable subplanar trait.

Since the crack is so thin, AoE spells can't hit it even if they originate inside the water. This actually depends on whether the writers meant "one square foot" to be a 12 inch x 12 inch square, or if they meant any shape with an equivalent area. If equivalent area, then the crack could be at most 2.4 inches tall to stop AoEs.

Ways the party could attack this thing include breaking a section of wall (mountain hammer?) and punching the tiny exposed strip of ooze to death, or removing the water and sticking a thin blade through the crack, or reaching a hand in and hitting it with a touch spell, possibly? Not sure if touch-range spells without SR exist.

[Seppo87]

Immune or at least impervious to damage, burrow and fly speed, iron heart surge, dimension door, ability to effectively fight at a distance.

Is this nearly enough? I could built it as an npc.
But I need to know:
How much damage per turn do we want? How high the to-hit? How good the AC? How high must his saves be?

Would AMF be preferable over other choices?

[Socksy]

The Tarrasque! It's CR20 and everything, and look at the optimisation on it! Toughness six times, that's eighteen entire extra HP!

[sideswipe]

solars. i could see a well played solar gaining a tactical advantage (its own terms, pre planned spells) being a nasty threat to the party. probably not tpk, but they will use a lot of resources fighting it. and if it attacks straight off it might take a weaker one down before they realise.

they can just res him but again, resources.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A single monster is almost never a significant threat on its own unless it somehow gets more actions.

[Esprit15]

Really, it depends on the group. For super high OP (prepared casters, psions, etc.), everything after epic is a joke.

For people who would laugh at the tarasque, there's always hekatonkheires, if you hate your players and yourself. :smalltongue:

If you want to do something not mind bogglingly stupid, just run a dragon that doesn't make use of spell casting, and give it a few class levels in something scary instead. A few dragons with levels of Frenzied Berserker could be fun/terrifying. "Oh gods we have to have killed them by now but they won't stop attacking!!!" If the PC's haven't rammed their attack bonuses to stupidly high levels, put a level of Fist of the Forest in there too, for CON to AC. Plus, depending on how loosely you interpret improved unarmed strike versus natural weapons (my GM tends to let the latter work as the former for classes), you'll have a slightly bigger damage die for all of their attacks. An adult white dragon is CR 10, and you need 12 levels to get all the feats and abilities you want (10 if it's just Frenzied Berserker) so Barbarian 5 (6)/Fist 3/Frenzied 4, which puts CR at 22 (20).

Of course, I could be totally getting this wrong and be crap at scary encounters.

[The Insanity]

Emerald Legion. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5605377&postcount=1)

[DMVerdandi]

Well, I would simply have a different plane/country. An epic place, where all the animals and monsters and such have crazy amounts of templates. Giving certain ones the paragon template to start with, and then continue to add it to different species and such, alongside other templates.

Start with a base monster and add templates or HD.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Tarrasque has been mentioned, I've posted my idea of the perfect fix for him here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?225814-Scariest-Monster(s)-that-you-can-make/page2) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156029-Optimizing-the-Tarrasque/page2). That second link has another post of mine further down discussing the viability of high-level opponents that don't use spells, it may give you some ideas.


Using a creature with regeneration and immunity to nonlethal damage as a DM sets a terrible precedent, as you don't want PCs using this gimmick. Furthermore, if you carefully read the wording of Regeneration, the creature still receives lethal hp damage from all lethal attacks, but is able to treat it as nonlethal damage with regards to whether it's disabled/dying/dead and is ability to regenerate it. If the creature is immune to receiving nonlethal damage, it does not prevent lethal attacks from damaging it at all, since the damage is still received as lethal damage. Thus you're left with a creature immune to nonlethal damage, who's taken lethal damage that it can treat as nonlethal damage. Its immunity to nonlethal damage would only make it unable to treat that lethal damage as nonlethal, so you only succeed in making every type of damage overcome its regeneration.

[(Un)Inspired]

That Pseudonatural Paragon Damn Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57301-That-Pseudonatural-Paragon-Damn-Crab!)

Bon appetit.

It's laughably over CR'd at 33 but it should be a tough nut to crack for your party.

[Brookshw]

Dealing with high level optimized parties in terms of finding reasonable challenges is always a bit tricky and requires, to some extent, equivalent counter optimization. If you want RAW I'd like to point out that advancing a monster by hit dice and by class levels do not stack for purposes of CR, so you can jack it way up via advancement and then tack on a class level to negate most of the change in CR (not that CR really means much). Alternatively there's book diving, what's good for the goose is good for the gander etc.

Focus on creatures defenses, this can be far more important than a powerful offense. Lots of PCs will have favorite tricks they use regularly, or might just be a one trick pony. Don't be afraid to on occasion set up defenses that shut those things down, but don't go overboard and break them out all the time (personally for my players I find 1 or 2 encounters out of 10 where the enemy is strong against their standard MO is fine). If you go the opposite and build offensively rather than defensively you're leading the game towards being one of rocket tag and that's just not much fun or interesting for many groups.

Think about the environment, terrain can complicate and introduce many challenging factors to any encounter, it's not just about a good monster for them to fight.

Be practical, high op parties can do quite a bit, and it takes time to build your encounters to create something suitable. If you don't have the time (I know I rarely do) don't be afraid to just hand wave a few things on to a monster to build them up a bit. Some new SLA for example, more HP/AC, etc. This is effectively using DM fiat to save yourself time but should not be viewed as license to create meatgrinder opponents that will spoil the PCs days, you'll want to have a good handle on what the party can handle and do in order to match it appropriately. Gauge the players responses, do they get frustrated or do they like having a higher level of challenge.

Lastly, try to avoid opponents that are just so jacked up most of the party is sitting on the side lines. It's not such a big deal if someone has to spend a turn dispelling some magic items or buffs so the whole party can really get in there, but it shouldn't be the whole party sitting around for 5+ rounds while one person and the opponent are just duking it out. Be inclusive.

Hope this is of some help.

[Fax Celestis]

That Pseudonatural Paragon Damn Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57301-That-Pseudonatural-Paragon-Damn-Crab!)

Bon appetit.

It's laughably over CR'd at 33 but it should be a tough nut to crack for your party.

...I came here to post my baby, and someone beat me to it.

*sniff* They grow up so fast!

(PS don't miss the God of Crabs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3227211&postcount=186) buried a few pages into the thread: it's a much more credible CR 33 encounter.)

As far as homebrew goes, you could try my Cataclysm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?173921-d20r-Monster-Cataclysm) monster. The only thing you should need to change is the Hero Value-based stuff: just use 1/2 HD instead and you'll be fine.

There's also another crab, Helcaerfax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?63584-GitP-Hunt-Club-Target-1-Helcaerfax), that relies a little on third-party templates. Apocalyptic Voidspawn Advanced Huge Monstrous Crab. CR 19.

And finally, an end-game boss I made, Ghulurak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?56409-Check-My-Monster-Math-(ASiC-STAY-OUT)). Half-Farspawn Spellwarped Voidmind Dark Advanced Frost Worm. CR 18.

[(Un)Inspired]

...I came here to post my baby, and someone beat me to it.

*sniff* They grow up so fast!



Sorry about that. Since I saw your monster a few years ago I've been kind of in love with it. It's so disgustingly impervious to almost all of the tactics PCs approach brutish monsters with.

Trying to attack it? Hope you to hit roll has been buffed into the stratosphere.

Trying to cast against it? Hope you came packing a serious load of instantaneous conjurations without to hit rolls.

Trying to take some of its hits to protect you allies? Hope you AC is stupidly high cause it avoids a good chunk of miss chances and does huge damage+grabs+Con damage

[StoneCipher]

Adamantine horror + the army that follows it.