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View Full Version : Damn epic levels! Need a hand with Maneuvers here



ZekeArgo
2007-03-06, 06:08 AM
Ok guys, I'm in a bit of a bind here. Trying to finish up a 60th level character for a PbP game and well... things are not going smoothly. I've got the class breakdown and most of the crunch stuff taken care of, but I can't figure out what I want to go with for maneuvers. Current build is this:

Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 15/Beguiler 20/Warblade 20 (Hardly 100% optimal, but the DM insists on at least 5 levels in any class and I didn't want to get *too* crazy with PrCs and whatnot)

Utilizing the Daring Outlaw feat for the rogue/swashbuckler goodness and beguiler with fun stuff with improved feint and irresistable dance/memory alteration, along with the warblade for further INT synergy and the ability to do some crazy damage when making AoOs (pretty much the concept for the build: utilizing spiked chain and robilar's gambit)

Anyway, my problem is this: I've got no effing clue what to select for maneuvers, other than I find Diamond Mind stuff nifty. Any suggestions for what diciplines I should focus on, tricks to pickup ones that are normally barred, or any other suggestions you all may have.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-06, 06:28 AM
60th level character? You don't cast epic spells. You lose.

D&D just doesn't work at that level, really. No point in trying.

paigeoliver
2007-03-06, 06:45 AM
For a 60th level game I would actually go for an initiative and saves build. The game doesn't really scale that well at that high of a level, so you are really going to want to go first.

Also, an AOO build is probably not the way to go at that level. Even using tricks where everything the opponent does provokes an AOO. It just doesn't help you that much since creatures and opponents at that level are so mobile.

I would go for highest possible saves and highest possible initiative if you are going to be playing a fighting character. I'd suggest the following for your levels in this order.

Marshall 5 (You will want the initiative aura, and some sort of damage aura).
Monk 5
Ranger 5
Paladin 45.

You will want a BIG charisma, both to boost your marshall abilities, to boost your paladin abilities. Well, to boost everything. Saves will be what kills you, not hit point damage. If you can get your charisma up around 40 (not that hard in an epic game), then your saves will be at Fort +56, Reflex +50, and Will +50 (this is counting a vest of resistance +5, but is not counting any ability scores other than the 40 charisma). With your stats and any other magic items then your saves will probably be in the mid 60s.

Plus, the character can do a lot of damage, particularly with a mounted lance smite from his (no doubt flying) Paladin mount. Power attacking for 18 with a +5 lance it would be (assume STR 30) 3d8+348 damage. Even power attacking for 18 you should auto-hit anything.

This could of course be really refined with prestige classes and such, I didn't bother.

Rama_Lei
2007-03-06, 06:50 AM
Wizard 60....

ZekeArgo
2007-03-06, 07:41 AM
Yes yes I know I won't be all that effective (nevermind that with a few tweaks I could have access to epic level spells, just drop the rogue/swashbuckler stuff and pickup a +casting PrC) but really I'd just like to know more about maneuver selection for an int-focused pure warblade.

Thiel
2007-03-06, 09:21 AM
I'd go Shadow Hand.
As the name implies it focuses on stealth which you are going to need.
Your enemy might be able to deal a gazillion damage but that won't do him any good if he can't find you. And it's also rather stylish to be able to balance on air.

Darrin
2007-03-06, 09:55 AM
Yes yes I know I won't be all that effective (nevermind that with a few tweaks I could have access to epic level spells, just drop the rogue/swashbuckler stuff and pickup a +casting PrC) but really I'd just like to know more about maneuver selection for an int-focused pure warblade.

The key feature of Warblade 20 is the ability to stack two stances at once. For example, Assassin's Stance + Tactics of the Wolf gives you 2d6+10 damage on anyone you flank. Pick up Clarion Commander and you can put someone in "perpetual flank" for 10 rounds with an Intimidate DC 20 check (they can't oppose it... not sure how it works against "can't be flanked abilities, though).

As far as an Int-based Warblade goes... Swashbuckler adds your Int bonus to damage. Pick up Assassin's Stance (Martial Study+Martial Stance) and Shadow Blade and you can add your Dex bonus to damage. (Champion of Corellan Lorethian would let you add your Dex bonus twice, I think.) I don't know what your stats are at ECL 60, but let's assume you've got an Int and Dex of 30... and maybe a Str of 30. Against a flanked opponent, your bonus damage for each attack would be:

2d6 (Assassin's Stance) + 10 (Tactics of the Wolf) + 10 (INT/Swash) + 10 (INT/Warblade) + 10 (DEX/ShadowBlade) + 10 (STR) = 2d6+50.

Now, let's add TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Snap Kick and Stormguard Warror for Combat Rhythm. I don't know how many attacks you get at ECL 60, but a Warblade 20 would get 8. Each touch attack that hits gives you +5 on damage on your next turn. 8x5 = 40, and that's not even taking into consideration Raging Mongoose (+4 attacks) and Time Stands Still (two full attacks). Let's just use Time Stands Still, double our attacks to 16, and assume all the touch attacks hit. 16x5 = 80.

From there, you can use White Raven Tactics to give yourself another turn, and unload with a full attack (2d6+130 bonus damage per attack) or pop off Diamond Nightmare Blade (one attack but damage x4, so 8d6+520).

Or, you could wait until next round, and then use a swift action to move away (Sudden Leap or Quicksilver Motion) and then Pouncing Charge to make a full attack at the end of a charge, and add in all those Power Attack/Leaping Charge multipliers.

Thiel
2007-03-06, 10:06 AM
Oh the pain, or maybe not since the enemy is going to look like mush when you are through :)

Darrin
2007-03-06, 10:08 PM
Oh the pain, or maybe not since the enemy is going to look like mush when you are through :)

Oh, I forgot... pick up the feat "Craven". It adds your class level to sneak attack damage. So... yeah, +60 damage for just one feat.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-06, 10:19 PM
Use every sort of cheese you can lay hands on. If you don't have Epic Spellcasting, you probably need it.

Even the stuff that is total cheese can't beat the "time accelerated" plane.

ZekeArgo
2007-03-07, 04:27 AM
Honestly I wasn't too satisfied with the build anyway, far too much is immune to sneak attacks at that point and since I don't have a copy of cityscape I don't personally have access to the alternate rogue class feature that lets ya sneak attack for 1/2 against immune mobs.

Anyway, decided that if I was going to go for it I'd go for it, so I went with Beguiler 20/Warblade 20/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Rainbow Servant 10. Figure healing and abilities from Jade Phoenix (via the Devout maneuvers) and spontaneous casting of all cleric spells (unless thats been errata'd) wouldn't be too bad, and would still allow use of epic spellcasting.

Any thoughts?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-07, 04:42 AM
If you're epic, you need the epic progression for a class. Epic bonus feats are better than pretty much anything else you can get (even aside from Epic Spellcasting--many Multispells, Improved Metamagic, Auto-Quicken, Improved Spell Capacity, et ceter et cetera).

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-07, 01:14 PM
Archivist could be nice, as could cosmic descryer (cosmic connection - very powerful, especially when combined with one of the 'word' spells - if you can survive 350 damage, a holy word/etc with a caster level of 70 will kill anything. No save).

As for maneuvers, Iron Heart Surge is invaluable, as are those ones that slow down time.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-07, 03:13 PM
Bears is right... without Epic Spellcasting, you're just a walking target. Here's my suggestion:

Warblade 20/Wiz5/Some Full Spellcasting PrC 10/Archmage 5/Jade Pheonix Mage 10/Does It Really Matter Anymore? 10.

Reason:

1) By taking Warblade for your first 20 levels, you get full BAB progression pre-epic, which is skewed post-epic.

2) By taking your spellcasting next, you still get the epic BAB/Save progression, which counteracts one of the major problems with spellcasters (poor BAB). By level 40, you should be ready for Epic Spellcasting.

3) Jade Pheonix Mage... there's no reason not to. Research Epic spells.

4) Choose some random Initiator or Spellcasting PrC for your last 10 levels. At this point, it really doesn't matter, you've got everything you could ever desire and then some. Maybe look into some Epic PrC's if there are any.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-07, 03:16 PM
That gives me a funny idea. Start all the non-casters at level 60, and all the casters at level 20. You've almost balanced casters!

ZekeArgo
2007-03-07, 05:19 PM
Heh, well after a whole bunch of crap I finally came up with something that resembles a "fighter type" character who still can utilize epic spells *and* has a +18 base BaB. as a level breakdown: Swordsage 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Fist of Raziel 7/Swordsage 1/Cleric 1/Contemplative 6/Swordsage 18/Church Inquisitor 6/Sovereign Speaker 9

Convoluted I know, but winds up with +18 BaB at ECL 20 and 20th level casting at ECL 24 with all the other stuff being gravy. Unfortunatly unable to take "dip" levels due to DM ruling that any class taken must be maximum length or 5 levels, so I couldn't just drop off a bunch of those cleric levels for other stuff.

Still, for what it does seems to do it very well, though I could drop that last inquisitor level and the 9 sovereign speaker levels for a decent 10 level PrC... if I ever find a damn one.

Darrin
2007-03-07, 08:49 PM
Heh, well after a whole bunch of crap I finally came up with something that resembles a "fighter type" character who still can utilize epic spells *and* has a +18 base BaB. as a level breakdown: Swordsage 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Fist of Raziel 7/Swordsage 1/Cleric 1/Contemplative 6/Swordsage 18/Church Inquisitor 6/Sovereign Speaker 9


Just so you know, the Ruby Knight Vindicator is an extremely powerful PrC. You can spend turn attempts to regain maneuvers and use more than one swift action in a round. Combined with White Raven Tactics (you'd have to pick this up via feats), you can get some serious cheese going.

Epic level casters will still own you, but if they're dumb enough to give you a chance to attack, you can solo them in a round.

ZekeArgo
2007-03-08, 06:18 AM
Just so you know, the Ruby Knight Vindicator is an extremely powerful PrC. You can spend turn attempts to regain maneuvers and use more than one swift action in a round. Combined with White Raven Tactics (you'd have to pick this up via feats), you can get some serious cheese going.

Epic level casters will still own you, but if they're dumb enough to give you a chance to attack, you can solo them in a round.

Yup, thats why I picked the thing up. Nevermind that I still can cast epic level spells (just at a CL of 38 or so) and things quickly get rather crazy ^_^

NullAshton
2007-03-08, 07:29 AM
That gives me a funny idea. Start all the non-casters at level 60, and all the casters at level 20. You've almost balanced casters!

No, that would just give casters too hard of a time.

BlueWizard
2007-03-08, 09:09 AM
Past 35th level I retire players to godhood.