[3.5] Lesser Vigor and why it's better.

[Extra Anchovies]

The single-target Vigor series of spells from Complete Divine (available to clerics and druids) far outshine the single-target Cure Wounds series from the PHB in all but two aspects: timeliness (Vigor grants fast healing, Cure Wounds takes effect all at once) and the ability to spontaneously cast them. In terms of ease of metamagicking (Extend Spell can function for Vigor, and double its effectiveness with one level of metamagic), as well as the far-and-away most important aspect of a healing spell (namely, its effectiveness for restoring lost hit points), the Vigor series is never less effective than a Cure Wounds spell cast at the same level.

Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+CL hp (max 1d8+5). At CL 1, that's 2-9, with average of 5 or 6. Lesser Vigor, on the other hand, grants a subject fast healing 1 for 10 rounds +1 per level (max 15 rounds). That's 11 rounds, and thus 11 hit points (every time; no random factor) at CL 1.

Lesser Vigor, then, always heals at least 2 hp more than CLW, can heal as much as 9 more hp than CLW, and averages 5 or 6 hp more than CLW. Granted, it's not as useful in-combat, but if you're wasting your combat actions on healing (and/or if your party members need healing to get through a combat encounter), you're doing something wrong.

Cure Moderate Wounds heals 2d8+CL (max 2d8+10). At CL 3: range of 5-19, average 12. At the same spell level and caster level, an Extended Lesser Vigor heals 1 hp per round for 26 rounds, total of 26. Total duration (and thus total hp healed) goes up by 2 per CL (maximum 5). At CL 5 (Lesser Vigor's maximum CL), Extended Lesser Vigor heals 30 hp to CMW's average of 14. At CL 10 (CMW's maximum CL), ELV heals 30 to CMW's average of 19.

It gets better.

Vigor is a third-level spell. Max duration 25 rounds, and grants fast healing 2. At CL 5, that's 30 hp to Cure Serious Wounds's average of 18 or 19. At CL 15 (maximum CL for both), it's 50 hp versus an average of 28 or 29.

Cure Critical Wounds has, at CL 7, an average of 25. Extended Vigor at CL 7 heals 68 hp, no dice rolls needed. At CL 15, CCW averages 33 while Extended Vigor caps at healing 100 hit points as a fourth-level spell. At CL 20, CCW caps at an average of 38, with a maximum possible healing of 52. Just barely over half as effective.

There's also Greater Vigor, a fifth-level spell that grants fast healing 4 for 10 +CL rounds, maximum 35 rounds. Not as good as Extended Vigor, though (at CL 9, Exended Vigor heals 76 hp to Greater Vigor's 46), and there isn't a parallel in the Cure series. However, it still heals at a faster rate, and probably passes Extended Vigor at higher CLs (I didn't check).

The multiple-target versions of each spell (Mass Cure [Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical] Wounds, Mass Lesser Vigor and Vigorous Circle) are a little harder to compare, but I'm pretty sure this is the one are where the Cure spells win out (they Mass Cure spells affect one creature/level; Mass Lesser Vigor and Vigorous Circle each affect one/two levels), or at least even the score.
TL;DR Unless you need mid-combat healing (which you really shouldn't), any money you spend on a potion of Cure Wounds is almost certainly better spent on an appropriately metamagicked potion of a comparable spell in the Vigor series (the only exception being if you need to heal mid-combat, which shouldn't be a common occurrence).

Thoughts? Will your characters now start stocking up on potions of Vigor to complement their Cure Wounds supply? After having this all calculated out, I now want to play a spontaneous divine caster with Vigor and Lesser Vigor as the only healing spells in their arsenal, and pick up Extend Spell and a bunch of combat buffs.

[Eldest]

I am afraid this has been general knowledge for a while. See the Healing Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0) for example.

[HaikenEdge]

No really new information. It's been pretty well established that "healer" is not a party role, because it basically can be reduced down to having wands of lesser vigor for the most part, and a couple scrolls of restoration, so anybody with UMD can do it.

[Extra Anchovies]

I am afraid this has been general knowledge for a while. See the Healing Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0) for example.

:smalltongue: Of course it is. There's a guide for everything else, don't know how I wasn't expecting one for this... Still, I just noticed it the other day, and it's a big enough thing (heal more hp/spell, plus no randomness) that I felt like sharing. Thanks for directing me to the healing guide, though; I'll definitely be taking a look at what that has to say. Is there a comprehensive list of guides available somewhere?

[Psyren]

TL;DR Unless you need mid-combat healing (which you really shouldn't)...

Strictly speaking yeah, you shouldn't, because it means your controller is probably asleep at the wheel if you need in-combat healing - but you'd be surprised how many times that ends up being the case regardless. The DM can get lucky crits, throw curveballs at the party ("Suddenly, 6 more hobgoblins burst from the trees. behind you..."), or your fellow PCs can fall victim to simple human error - all of these situations can result in needing a mid-fight healing bailout,

I'm generally the first in line to douse the Cure X spells in gasoline and strike the match - they are almost useless without houserules to power them up - but "almost" does not mean "always," and sometimes they are your best option. Vigor has more total healing, but if a monster or trap or ongoing spell is beating you down further each round, a mere 1-4 HP back is not going to matter much even if it does come from just one spell as opposed to several.

[Red Fel]

Is there a comprehensive list of guides available somewhere?

Here's one (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0).

With regard to healing, don't bother with potions. Have a few spellcasters stock up on wands of Vigor - they're cost-efficient, and continue to be useful. You don't need them for combat healing (frankly, combat healing is ultimately undesirable, save a spontaneous Cure for emergency use in combat), but they're great to freshen up afterwards.

[Necroticplague]

Also, a slight bit of Gouda can widen the gap even more. The costs for wands is based entirely on 2 things: spell level,and caster level used. Since metamagic (with exception for heighten and sanctum) doesn't change the spell level, adding Ocular and Persistent to a spell on a wand doesn't make it more costly. And since the only benefit from higher CL for lesser vigor is longer duration, this combo means no real reason (barring dispelling) to use a CL above one. So you can get a wand of Ocular Persistent Lesser Vigor for 24-hour fast healing, for a mere 750 GP. And with 50 charges, it should last you quite a while.

[nedz]

In terms of ease of metamagicking (Extend Spell can function for Vigor, and double its effectiveness with one level of metamagic)

There is an entry in the FAQ which disputes this. According to the FAQ an Extended Lesser Vigor is capped at +5, so Extended Lesser Vigor at CL 3 would be 15 HP. Strangely this is the only spell so nerfed by the FAQ, FAQ is not RAW and most enlightened DMs would be quite happy with it curing 26 HP at CL 3. YMMV.

[Coidzor]

Any kind of healing potion is horribly overpriced, especially compared to Wands.

The main advantage potions have over the use of a wand is that if you have a (mundane, non-magic item, IIRC) Potion Belt from one of the Forgotten Realms and can use it as a swift action after having used up all the charges in your Healing Belt magic item.

Heck, the non-magic base belt for the Healing Belt could very well *be* a Potion Belt, I suppose.


Also, a slight bit of Gouda can widen the gap even more. The costs for wands is based entirely on 2 things: spell level,and caster level used. Since metamagic (with exception for heighten and sanctum) doesn't change the spell level, adding Ocular and Persistent to a spell on a wand doesn't make it more costly. And since the only benefit from higher CL for lesser vigor is longer duration, this combo means no real reason (barring dispelling) to use a CL above one. So you can get a wand of Ocular Persistent Lesser Vigor for 24-hour fast healing, for a mere 750 GP. And with 50 charges, it should last you quite a while.

That is some gouda, aye. Oracular means that each casting affects two creatures too, right?

[bjoern]

Also, a slight bit of Gouda can widen the gap even more. The costs for wands is based entirely on 2 things: spell level,and caster level used. Since metamagic (with exception for heighten and sanctum) doesn't change the spell level, adding Ocular and Persistent to a spell on a wand doesn't make it more costly. And since the only benefit from higher CL for lesser vigor is longer duration, this combo means no real reason (barring dispelling) to use a CL above one. So you can get a wand of Ocular Persistent Lesser Vigor for 24-hour fast healing, for a mere 750 GP. And with 50 charges, it should last you quite a while.

Wow, that actually would work I believe. Not sure if any DM would allow it, he'd probably say it counts as the modified spell level (9)

EDIT- After thinking about it some more, its spell level x caster level x 750.
Spell level is 1
Caster level would have to be sufficient to cast the spell contained I would think so it would be 17.
I'm not so sure this would work after all.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, a slight bit of Gouda can widen the gap even more. The costs for wands is based entirely on 2 things: spell level,and caster level used. Since metamagic (with exception for heighten and sanctum) doesn't change the spell level, adding Ocular and Persistent to a spell on a wand doesn't make it more costly. And since the only benefit from higher CL for lesser vigor is longer duration, this combo means no real reason (barring dispelling) to use a CL above one. So you can get a wand of Ocular Persistent Lesser Vigor for 24-hour fast healing, for a mere 750 GP. And with 50 charges, it should last you quite a while.
Doesn't work. Part of the Metamagic Feat Header (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) prevents this:
With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell. (emphasis added)

So a Persistent Lesser Vigor, normally requiring a 7th level spell slot, doesn't fit in a limited-to-fourth-level wand.

I remember there being something about a commensurate cost increase as well, but I can't find it at the moment.

[Chronos]

Lesser Vigor is better because this one goes to 11. That's 15.5 higher.


Quoth Psyren:

I'm generally the first in line to douse the Cure X spells in gasoline and strike the match - they are almost useless without houserules to power them up - but "almost" does not mean "always," and sometimes they are your best option. Vigor has more total healing, but if a monster or trap or ongoing spell is beating you down further each round, a mere 1-4 HP back is not going to matter much even if it does come from just one spell as opposed to several.
The great thing is that even if you do douse the Cure X spells in gasoline, when that rare situation comes up when they're the right tool for the job, you can still use them. Just decide what prepared spell you can most easily do without, and poof, you've got your emergency healing. You don't even need to expend any build resources to be able to do this.

[Zanos]

Any kind of healing potion is horribly overpriced, especially compared to Wands.

The main advantage potions have over the use of a wand is that if you have a (mundane, non-magic item, IIRC) Potion Belt from one of the Forgotten Realms and can use it as a swift action after having used up all the charges in your Healing Belt magic item.

Heck, the non-magic base belt for the Healing Belt could very well *be* a Potion Belt, I suppose.



That is some gouda, aye. Oracular means that each casting affects two creatures too, right?
You're referring to the Potion Belt in FRCS. It only lets you retrieve potions as a free action, unfortunately.

[Anlashok]

Doesn't work. Part of the Metamagic Feat Header (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) prevents this:(emphasis added)

So a Persistent Lesser Vigor, normally requiring a 7th level spell slot, doesn't fit in a limited-to-fourth-level wand.

I remember there being something about a commensurate cost increase as well, but I can't find it at the moment.

Except.. metamagic explicitly doesn't increase the spell's level (in fact, that bit is literally five lines up on the web srd). So the only thing that stops is you putting Heighten on a fourth level spell.

[bjoern]

Except.. metamagic explicitly doesn't increase the spell's level (in fact, that bit is literally five lines up on the web srd). So the only thing that stops is you putting Heighten on a fourth level spell.

But it does prevent you from using CL 1 on the item. You'd have to use a CL that can support casting out of a 7th level slot.

[Coidzor]

You're referring to the Potion Belt in FRCS. It only lets you retrieve potions as a free action, unfortunately.

Ah. That doesn't address the action economy limitations of using potions at all, then. I was mislead. :/

[Jack_Simth]

Except.. metamagic explicitly doesn't increase the spell's level (in fact, that bit is literally five lines up on the web srd). So the only thing that stops is you putting Heighten on a fourth level spell.Technically, I suppose. Of course, it's very hard to argue that the intent isn't pretty clear.

[Zanos]

Ah. That doesn't address the action economy limitations of using potions at all, then. I was mislead. :/
It's nice addition to your toolkit if your DM allows it. You could tumble out of reach as a move, free to get potion, and standard to drink. Still not the best idea for mid combat, but could save you once or twice. Also nice for buff potions, you could drink an enlarge potion or something similar on your first round and still move in.
They only cost 1gp, don't take up a magic item slot, and hold six potions. There's also a masterwork version for 60 gp that holds 10.

[Necroticplague]

That is some gouda, aye. Oracular means that each casting affects two creatures too, right?Nah, Ocular is just there so it qualifies for Persistent.


Wow, that actually would work I believe. Not sure if any DM would allow it, he'd probably say it counts as the modified spell level (9)

EDIT- After thinking about it some more, its spell level x caster level x 750.
Spell level is 1
Caster level would have to be sufficient to cast the spell contained I would think so it would be 17.
I'm not so sure this would work after all.Where does it say you have to have a CL of 17 to cast from a level 9 spell slot?


Doesn't work. Part of the Metamagic Feat Header (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) prevents this:(emphasis added)

So a Persistent Lesser Vigor, normally requiring a 7th level spell slot, doesn't fit in a limited-to-fourth-level wand.

I remember there being something about a commensurate cost increase as well, but I can't find it at the moment.Good thing that neither Persistent nor Ocular actually affect the spell's level than, is it? Even after use, its still a level 1 spell.


But it does prevent you from using CL 1 on the item. You'd have to use a CL that can support casting out of a 7th level slot. Again, where is the rule for what the minimum CL to cast from a 7th level slot is?

[Divide by Zero]

Nah, Ocular is just there so it qualifies for Persistent.

Where does it say you have to have a CL of 17 to cast from a level 9 spell slot?

Good thing that neither Persistent nor Ocular actually affect the spell's level than, is it? Even after use, its still a level 1 spell.

Again, where is the rule for what the minimum CL to cast from a 7th level slot is?

Right here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel)

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
It doesn't say how to determine the minimum level, so I suppose there's some ambiguity there, but I can't really see a justification for basing it on anything other than your class's spell progression table.

[Fax Celestis]

Right here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel)

It doesn't say how to determine the minimum level, so I suppose there's some ambiguity there, but I can't really see a justification for basing it on anything other than your class's spell progression table.

We went over this in another thread: there is an example provided that is not transported from the PHB to the SRD.

[Gavinfoxx]

This has been common D&D knowledge for like over a decade?? This is like coming to a mathematician forum and shouting that you have come up with a way of figuring out the lengths of the sides of a right triangle?

[Svata]

Ur-priest (9th level spells at CL 10), Archmage, and Virtuoso (which advance casting, but not CL) would like to have a word with you.

[Divide by Zero]

Ur-priest (9th level spells at CL 10), Archmage, and Virtuoso (which advance casting, but not CL) would like to have a word with you.

The first is only relevant if an Ur-Priest is creating the item. I've never heard of Archmage or Virtuoso not advancing CL before, where does it say that?

[Chronos]

In the class description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm).

Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.
Caster level would be "another benefit", and it doesn't say he gets it, so he doesn't. Though this is widely regarded as an error, and usually ignored (often by people who don't even realize that there's a rule they are ignoring).

[Svata]

Its almost always houseruled that they do, but they don't by RAW, because they both have passages like the above one.

[Necroticplague]

The first is only relevant if an Ur-Priest is creating the item. I've never heard of Archmage or Virtuoso not advancing CL before, where does it say that?

Well, lets look the way the +1 level of existing spellcasting class is worded for those:

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. Says he gets more spells/day, but is quiet on the subject of increasing CL. Because of the way the rules normally work, since it doesn't say it increases CL, it doesn't.



Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Exactly same thing here.

[Story]

Strictly speaking yeah, you shouldn't, because it means your controller is probably asleep at the wheel if you need in-combat healing - but you'd be surprised how many times that ends up being the case regardless. The DM can get lucky crits, throw curveballs at the party ("Suddenly, 6 more hobgoblins burst from the trees. behind you..."), or your fellow PCs can fall victim to simple human error - all of these situations can result in needing a mid-fight healing bailout,

This. I just got done with a level 3 campaign where I played a Cleric for the first time, and I was surprised about how much healbotting I had to do, given all I had read about the futility of in-combat healing.

Probably part of the problem is that the rest of the party was low-mid op Melee types with no Wizard (and hence no BFC). I did start preparing Lessor Vigor in 1 or 2 slots a day to reduce the healing load, but there were quite a few times I had to pull out a Cure Moderate Wounds for emergency in-battle healing too.

Also, one character actually died, but that was a lucky max-damage crit from a stronger than normal monster, so there was nothing that could have realistically been done about that. Crits are always a problem unless you're doing an all-Necropolitan party or something. As are ambushes. Especially from Thoqquas.

[Lans]

What about when you use feats to boost the effects, how do they compare?

Such as Augment healing, and the one that adds an effect that is based on the domain, and the one that is a free empower or maximize or something

[Extra Anchovies]

What about when you use feats to boost the effects, how do they compare?

Such as Augment healing, and the one that adds an effect that is based on the domain, and the one that is a free empower or maximize or something

Augment Healing is +2 per level of the spell; that means CLW doesn't gain anything against Lesser Vigor, and the higher level and/or extended versions of the Vigor series beat Cure Wounds by way more than 2 points. Sudden Maximized and/or Empowered CLW or CMW might beat Lesser Vigor, but it's sort of a waste of a 1/day empower or maximize.

[Zanos]

Augment Healing is +2 per level of the spell; that means CLW doesn't gain anything against Lesser Vigor, and the higher level and/or extended versions of the Vigor series beat Cure Wounds by way more than 2 points. Sudden Maximized and/or Empowered CLW or CMW might beat Lesser Vigor, but it's sort of a waste of a 1/day empower or maximize.
Just take Mastery of Day and Night.

[Lans]

I was thinking imbued healing from complete champion, but on second reading it apparently works on the vigor line too, so it winds up being a wash