[3.5] Replacing Barbarian Rage?

[Extra Anchovies]

Yes, I know, a barbarian without the rage ability has sort of stopped being a barbarian altogether.

I'm currently working on a TWF build, and one of the linchpins is a one-level dip into Barbarian with the Lion Totem variant from Complete Champion. Why? Because full attack on a charge is a nice thing to have. However, rage 1/day doesn't really scale well, so I'm wondering what replacements there are for a barbarian's rage ability.

The build also includes a dip into Swordsage and a good deal (8 or 9 levels) of Warblade at the higher levels, so I'm looking for something that either grants a continuous passive effect or that allows the use of maneuvers/other martial adept stuff while it's active. I've already looked at Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana and Ferocity from Cityscape; Ferocity seems like it would be a little more useful, but I'm not sure if either of those (or the default barbarian rage) allows the use of maneuvers while it's active.

To summarize:
1. Can maneuvers be used while a barbarian is raging? What about when they have Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity active should they take one of those variants?
2. Are there any alternate class features that trade away the barbarian's rage that I haven't already mentioned (i.e. outside of Whirling Frenzy and Ferocity)? I've already given up the fast movement for Pounce, so I can't take anything that requires sacrificing both.

[Zaq]

The only thing that leaps to mind is the Rangery Barbarian on pg. 58 of Unearthed Arcana. It says that you lose Rage (and the stuff that's based on Rage), and you gain favored enemy and the archery combat style (with its upgrades). Not great for a melee character, but it's technically better than nothing.

There's also the Berserker Strength variant in PHB2, but it'd be much, much worse for you than just having Rage 1/day, since it scales with Barbarian level (and not very well, at that).

[Vhaidara]

1. Very much so. Most Diamond Mind maneuvers are an exception, since they are Concentration checks, which can't be done while raging, but I've actually used a Tiger Claw Swordsage like a barbarian.

2. Full List of ACFs (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316). I recommend bookmarking it. I did, it's always a great reference.

[Extra Anchovies]

The only thing that leaps to mind is the Rangery Barbarian on pg. 58 of Unearthed Arcana. It says that you lose Rage (and the stuff that's based on Rage), and you gain favored enemy and the archery combat style (with its upgrades). Not great for a melee character, but it's technically better than nothing.

There's also the Berserker Strength variant in PHB2, but it'd be much, much worse for you than just having Rage 1/day, since it scales with Barbarian level (and not very well, at that).

Hm. Swapping for favored enemy seems like it would be at least a bit more useful; the build already includes Ranger through sixth level, so it wouldn't actually be all that bad. Better than having Rage and not using it, at least.

ETA:

1. Very much so. Most Diamond Mind maneuvers are an exception, since they are Concentration checks, which can't be done while raging, but I've actually used a Tiger Claw Swordsage like a barbarian.

2. Full List of ACFs (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316). I recommend bookmarking it. I did, it's always a great reference.

Thanks for the link (and also the clarification); I'll be certain to keep that one handy. The current build uses Ranger, a dip in Monk (TWF with unarmed strike and two-handed weapon), and a dip in barbarian, all with ACFs out the ass, before it branches into ToB stuff, and flipping back and forth between the five or six sourcebooks from which I'm taking them has been pretty tiring.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, Rage, even only 1/day, isn't a bad thing. Think about it
+2 to hit
+2 Damage/hit (3 if you use a two-hander)
+2 HP/HD
+2 Will saves

And failing that, Whirling Frenzy is fantastic
+2 to hit
+2 Damage/hit (3 if you use a two-hander)
+2 AC
+1 attack (works with any full attack or mobility maneuver, like Sudden Leap)

[Extra Anchovies]

Actually, Rage, even only 1/day, isn't a bad thing. Think about it
+2 to hit
+2 Damage/hit (3 if you use a two-hander)
+2 HP/HD
+2 Will saves

And failing that, Whirling Frenzy is fantastic
+2 to hit
+2 Damage/hit (3 if you use a two-hander)
+2 AC
+1 attack (works with any full attack or mobility maneuver, like Sudden Leap)

Hm. Seeing all the provided bonuses laid out like that makes the benefit a little easier to see. All of my HD before the level of barbarian will be d8s, so I may actually go with the default rage; TWF already gives me enough attacks that Whirling Frenzy's extra attack might not be worth the -2 to hit (+2 from strength, -2 from TWF, -2 from frenzy), and default rage would last longer (increased Constitution), let me soak up more damage, and the +2 to hit wholly offsets the TWF penalties. Ferocity gives me +2 AC, lasts only one round less (4+Con vs 3+Con+2), and also gives the to-hit and damage bonuses; the after-effects are worse, but it's usable as an immediate action. Which of the two (normal rage or ferocity) do you think is better for TWF?

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, I'd go with Ferocity. You have a net gain of 4 AC, immediate action activation, and the same offensive benefits.

[Extra Anchovies]

Honestly, I'd go with Ferocity. You have a net gain of 4 AC, immediate action activation, and the same offensive benefits.

Yeah, I'm thinking the same. The character concept has a rather urban bent to it, so taking the ACF from Cityscape fits in pretty well. Thanks for the tips! :smallbiggrin: