[Little Cup Showdown] - The Barbarian ||VS|| The Wizard.

[Yael]

A friend and I were discussing about which class was a better lv1st beater, so we tried to build our best on each, I am on the Wizard's side, and he was on the Barbarian's side.

The point is to optimize the character at its best and have a PbP match.

Every source is open 3.0 and 3.5 (using updated material) and third party as well (Ro, KoK, WoW, FR, Eb, DL, DM.) Two flaws alowed, two traits, no LA Buyoff, level 1st, any class feature swap is fine. This is TO, so breaking wealth should be fine, it's just a theorical optimization ;)

What's your oppinion? Who would win? Who would lose? Which feat selection helps out the Barbarian against the Wizard? And which spells or feats outmatch the Barbarian?

[daremetoidareyo]

If the barbarian has a whip and wins initiative he has a good chance at 80 to 95 feet away. 2x speed charge + 15 foot reach to trip. Put some skill points in balance vs grease! At 100 feet or more away...well, the wizard has a much better shot, unless the barbarian is using bolas...and quick drawing a sword...

[bjoern]

I think wizard. Specialized conjuration. Abrupt jaunt and power word pain. Improved initiative and a high dex.

If you go first. PWP and run away. Continue taking run actions to get out of there.

If you go second, abrupt jaunt his attack, then see above.

I'm sure there's ways to clean this up. But it should be sufficient.

[Irk]

Search around for dextercovia's trick for 9th level spells at level 1. Cast celerity, then go to town. Summon Monster IX should do it.

[Flickerdart]

If the barbarian has a whip and wins initiative he has a good chance at 80 to 95 feet away. 2x speed charge + 15 foot reach to trip. Put some skill points in balance vs grease! At 100 feet or more away...well, the wizard has a much better shot, unless the barbarian is using bolas...and quick drawing a sword...
Um...what exactly would tripping with a whip do? It doesn't threaten, and the wizard doesn't care whether he's upright or lounging when he casts the spell that kills you dead.

Anyway, I'd recommend you go the direct damage route. Grab a couple of feats like Bloodline of Fire, take your favourite blow-stuff-up spell, and incinerate the smelly viking.

[daremetoidareyo]

Um...what exactly would tripping with a whip do? It doesn't threaten, and the wizard doesn't care whether he's upright or lounging when he casts the spell that kills you dead.

Anyway, I'd recommend you go the direct damage route. Grab a couple of feats like Bloodline of Fire, take your favourite blow-stuff-up spell, and incinerate the smelly viking.

Actually, thanks.

I guess it was a houserule we never bother looking up after getting it wrong. There is nothing in RAW about trips affecting somatic components, where there is plenty about grappling. Nevermind then.

Explored in depth here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qef3?Interrupting-spellcasting-with-a-trip

[ranagrande]

I'd want to do something unexpected. Be a Xeph Barbarian with the Quick trait and two flaws and take Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Speed of Thought for feats. Assuming max gold for a starting character, buy a longbow and 1700 arrows.

When the encounter begins, run away from the wizard. You've got a 60 ft speed (and 70 ft for nine rounds) so you should be able to outdistance them. Your maximum range with the longbow is 1500 ft; you should keep at least 1000 between you.

Then just shoot arrows. You'll be taking like a -14 minimum to hit, but you'll auto hit on a roll of 20, and you have enough arrows that statistically, that should happen about 85 times.

A 1st level wizard does not have anything with that kind of range, so you shouldn't have to worry about retaliation. When they try to close the distance run away until you can snipe safely again.

[Zanos]

I think wizard. Specialized conjuration. Abrupt jaunt and power word pain. Improved initiative and a high dex.

If you go first. PWP and run away. Continue taking run actions to get out of there.

If you go second, abrupt jaunt his attack, then see above.

I'm sure there's ways to clean this up. But it should be sufficient.
You can't take immediate actions while flatfooted.

It probably comes down to who wins intiative, but the wizard is better at that by a long short.
14 Dex
Improved Intiative
Humingbird Familiar
Nerveskitter

Gives +15 to Intiative. Then cast a DC 16+ Sleep and CDG him with a scythe.

If you're in charge range of the barbarian and he wins initiative and hits you I'm pretty sure you're dead, though.

[bjoern]

You can't take immediate actions while flatfooted.

It probably comes down to who wins intiative, but the wizard is better at that by a long short.
14 Dex
Improved Intiative
Humingbird Familiar
Nerveskitter

Gives +15 to Intiative. Then cast a DC 16+ Sleep and CDG him with a scythe.

If you're in charge range of the barbarian and he wins initiative and hits you I'm pretty sure you're dead, though.

Yeah, forgot about flatfooted. Yep it would be a die roll. Barb has a tough time beating that initiative roll. Best I can think of for him would be an 18dex +2 race and imp. Int for a+9 bonus.

[Flickerdart]

When the encounter begins, run away from the wizard. You've got a 60 ft speed (and 70 ft for nine rounds) so you should be able to outdistance them. Your maximum range with the longbow is 1500 ft; you should keep at least 1000 between you.
At 1000 feet, you have -100 to spotting the wizard should he choose to hide - and there's no reason for him not to. Basically, all you're doing is running away from the encounter you don't want without having any way of making the encounter that you do want happen.

[Inevitability]

Look, wizard optimized for high intiative wins almost by default. Two words: Abrupt Jaunt.

[(Un)Inspired]

As others have said, make sure you have Nerveskitter and a hummingbird and swap out scribe scroll for improved initiative. Also, probably be a fire elf for the dex and int plus. Don't worry about the con minus, if you're hit you're dead anyway. In fact, dump everything except for dex and int. Crack those as high as you possibly can.

Maybe take precocious apprentice to learn web? Web him then Power Word Pain.

Also make sure to be a conjurer with abrupt jaunt (duh).

EDIT: 20 dex + humming bird + improved initiative + Nerveskitter = 18 initiative. Not bad for level one. Am I forgetting anything?

EDIT 2: take the aggressive trait for another +2 to initiative. That makes your initiative 20 @ level 1. Not too bad

[JustPlayItLoud]

After putting everything into initiative, doesn't Fell Drain Sonic Snap pretty much seal the deal? I'm not aware of a way said barbarian could become immune to negative levels in this scenario.

[(Un)Inspired]

After putting everything into initiative, doesn't Fell Drain Sonic Snap pretty much seal the deal? I'm not aware of a way said barbarian could become immune to negative levels in this scenario.

Can you reduce metamagic costs by 1 at level 1?

[Flickerdart]

Beefiest barbarian will have what, 17 HP (d12 + 16 CON + Rage)?

Spells: Lesser Orb of Fire, Nerveskitter. Be human. Dump INT, focus on DEX for Initiative and ranged touch. Take the following options:
ACF: War Wizard, swap Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative.
Familiar: Hummingbird, +4 Initiative.
Any two flaws that aren't Shaky and Unreactive.
Feat: Bloodline of Fire (+2 CL to Fire spells)
Feat: Cali****e Elementalist (+1 CL to Fire spells)
Feat: Elemental Spellcasting [Fire] (+1 CL to Fire spells)
Feat: Primitive Casting (+1 CL when using frostfell herbs as material component)
Trait: Spellgifted - Conjuration (+1 CL to Conjurations, -1 CL to anything else)

So we're looking at 4d8 damage, average 18. Barbarbecue!


Look, wizard optimized for high intiative wins almost by default. Two words: Abrupt Jaunt.
Abrupt Jaunt doesn't help very much when you're looking at a ranged opponent, though, which is inevitably the opposing build in all of these wizard duels.


Can you reduce metamagic costs by 1 at level 1?
Metamagic School Focus has you covered.

[ahenobarbi]

After putting everything into initiative, doesn't Fell Drain Sonic Snap pretty much seal the deal? I'm not aware of a way said barbarian could become immune to negative levels in this scenario.

Necropolitan barbarian 1 iż ECL 1 character and isn't hurt by this.

[Flickerdart]

Necropolitan barbarian 1 iż ECL 1 character and isn't hurt by this.
To become a Necropolitan and live, a character has to have been level 3. By this same logic, a level 20 barbarian with full level 20 WBL who has been level drained to level 1 is also a level 1 character, and can just have a ring to protect himself.

[amalcon]

If we're talking these characters as typically played, it depends mainly on the terrain. If you're in a forest, Abrupt Jaunt will let the wizard win most of the time. If you're on a flat, featureless plane, Abrupt Jaunt won't really do much, and at level 1 the Barbarian's longbow is basically "60%+ chance that the Wizard dies, if fired within range". The Wizard doesn't have anything that reliable that ends the fight (maybe Sleep, but all the Barb needs to do is run 120' away during the full-round casting). Metamagic School Focus Rapid Sleep works, but that's very much a level one build, and there are better level one builds (see below). It's not until level 5 (and to a lesser extent level 3) that the Wizard's spells become actually useful in a scenario like this.

Of course, if we don't have the typical play restriction, the Wizard wins by selling his spellbook and hiring an army of mercenaries to fight with him. Also, at level 2, the bow becomes much less reliable of a one-shot due to the Wizard's increased HP.

The real king of level one is, of course, the Druid (riding dog is the strongest level one character, and it even comes with a druid companion).

[(Un)Inspired]

Metamagic School Focus has you covered.

Ah yes. For some reason I thought that feat had more stringent entry requirements that couldn't be met at level 1.

[strangebloke]

The advantage that martial characters ostensibly have is that while a single spell is powerful, martial characters can use their abilities all the time every day.

At high levels, this is a totally moot point, since spellcasters have dozens and dozens of spells, each one ludicrously more powerful than anything a martial character can do. Conservation of resources doesn't matter unless you spend in-game hours in combat and your spellcaster hasn't broken any concept of efficiency with persistant spells and planar allies and such.

The Wizard wins a duel at low-level for the same reason that he destroys martials at high level. Resource conservation doesn't matter, since combat is only one round.

Nerveskitter, Power word pain, and you win! But you're also basically an expert with a hummingbird at this point, whereas if the barbarian wins, he is still a barbarian.

TL;DR: Wizard wins the duel. Barbarian is a better beatstick at lvl 1.

[Flickerdart]

The advantage that martial characters ostensibly have is that while a single spell is powerful, martial characters can use their abilities all the time every day.
Except a barbarian's rage is 1/day for the first three levels of his career. Fighters don't have limited-use abilities, but they still have HP, and HP runs out a lot faster than spells.


in-game hours in combat .
What.


Nerveskitter, Power word pain, and you win! But you're also basically an expert with a hummingbird at this point, whereas if the barbarian wins, he is still a barbarian.
"If he wins" isn't really relevant when he doesn't, and then is a corpse. It's better to be an expert than a corpse...and it's not that hard to stretch a 1st level wizard's spell supply over the 4 encounters per day that you're supposed to have.

[The Insanity]

TO is allowed? Pun-Pun.

[Hamste]

Except a barbarian's rage is 1/day for the first three levels of his career. Fighters don't have limited-use abilities, but they still have HP, and HP runs out a lot faster than spells.


What.


Well, no - he's dead. It's hard to be a barbarian when you're a corpse.

Well seeing death is a condition which only results in your soul leaving your body, you can be a barbarian and dead, you can't do much but if it offers any solstice you are still a barbarian.

[Flickerdart]

Well seeing death is a condition which only results in your soul leaving your body, you can be a barbarian and dead, you can't do much but if it offers and solstice you are still a barbarian.
No, when you die you're a petitioner, and petitioners don't have class levels.

[Hamste]

No, when you die you're a petitioner, and petitioners don't have class levels.

Doesn't that only happen if you faithfully follow a deity?

[Chronos]

The wizard can't have a hummingbird and Abrupt Jaunt both, as Abrupt Jaunt replaces your familiar. Or rather, you can, but it costs you a feat that it's probably not worth to get it back.

A duel isn't the best method of comparing classes, either. Better is to put them up against the same challenges and see how they do. But then, it'll depend on what challenges you choose: Put them up against five goblins, and the wizard will do better... but put them up against those same goblins one at a time in five encounters, and the barbarian will do better.

[Zombulian]

Unfortunately, against a Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt and Nerveskitter, the Barbarian has almost no chance in a 1v1. Hell, Easy Metamagic Fell Drain Sonic Snap would take him down without a roll.

[Chronos]

It's not "almost no chance", even then. If the wizard has Abrupt Jaunt, he doesn't have the hummingbird, so the only initiative booster he has access to that the barbarian doesn't is Nerveskitter. That's what, +5? So the barbarian still has a 23.25% chance of winning initiative. Having won initiative, he's going to have a very easy time hitting the wizard's unbuffed AC, and one hit is guaranteed to take the wizard down.

It gets even better if we disallow flaws (which are, after all, an optional variant rule). If the wizard wants to use a Fell Drain Sonic Snap, it's going to cost him two feats to do so, which locks him into human, and doesn't leave him any more feats. The barbarian, meanwhile, is free to be a Wood Elf or something, and can spend his feat on Improved Initiative (which the wizard can't afford along with his killing trick-- The barbarian doesn't need any feats at all to kill), putting them equal on initiative. The wizard still has a better chance than the barbarian overall, since there's the chance that the barbarian will roll poorly and miss but Sonic Snap needs no attack roll... but it's awfully close.

[Zanos]

It's not "almost no chance", even then. If the wizard has Abrupt Jaunt, he doesn't have the hummingbird, so the only initiative booster he has access to that the barbarian doesn't is Nerveskitter. That's what, +5? So the barbarian still has a 23.25% chance of winning initiative. Having won initiative, he's going to have a very easy time hitting the wizard's unbuffed AC, and one hit is guaranteed to take the wizard down.

It gets even better if we disallow flaws (which are, after all, an optional variant rule). If the wizard wants to use a Fell Drain Sonic Snap, it's going to cost him two feats to do so, which locks him into human, and doesn't leave him any more feats. The barbarian, meanwhile, is free to be a Wood Elf or something, and can spend his feat on Improved Initiative (which the wizard can't afford along with his killing trick-- The barbarian doesn't need any feats at all to kill), putting them equal on initiative. The wizard still has a better chance than the barbarian overall, since there's the chance that the barbarian will roll poorly and miss but Sonic Snap needs no attack roll... but it's awfully close.
You can trade scribe scroll for improved initiative.

[Zombulian]

It's not "almost no chance", even then. If the wizard has Abrupt Jaunt, he doesn't have the hummingbird, so the only initiative booster he has access to that the barbarian doesn't is Nerveskitter. That's what, +5? So the barbarian still has a 23.25% chance of winning initiative. Having won initiative, he's going to have a very easy time hitting the wizard's unbuffed AC, and one hit is guaranteed to take the wizard down.

It gets even better if we disallow flaws (which are, after all, an optional variant rule). If the wizard wants to use a Fell Drain Sonic Snap, it's going to cost him two feats to do so, which locks him into human, and doesn't leave him any more feats. The barbarian, meanwhile, is free to be a Wood Elf or something, and can spend his feat on Improved Initiative (which the wizard can't afford along with his killing trick-- The barbarian doesn't need any feats at all to kill), putting them equal on initiative. The wizard still has a better chance than the barbarian overall, since there's the chance that the barbarian will roll poorly and miss but Sonic Snap needs no attack roll... but it's awfully close.

Yes but if the the Wizard has AJ then it doesn't matter who wins initiative, because the Barb charges the Wizard, the Wizard gets out of the way, and the action is ruined. Now if we disallow flaws then yes, less of a chance for the Wiz there because he loses his auto-kill move.

[MilesTiden]

Yes but if the the Wizard has AJ then it doesn't matter who wins initiative, because the Barb charges the Wizard, the Wizard gets out of the way, and the action is ruined. Now if we disallow flaws then yes, less of a chance for the Wiz there because he loses his auto-kill move.

Yes, but we've already established in thread that you can't use AJ when flat-footed? Which was the whole reason for this Initiative arms race?

[Owl Prowler]

Yes but if the the Wizard has AJ then it doesn't matter who wins initiative, because the Barb charges the Wizard, the Wizard gets out of the way, and the action is ruined. Now if we disallow flaws then yes, less of a chance for the Wiz there because he loses his auto-kill move.

If it's the first turn and the Barbarian wins initiative, then the Wizard is flat-footed and cannot use immediate actions. If there was a buff round before initiative (unlikely, as the Barb doesn't get anything out of it) then the Wizard could use abrupt jaunt.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[Zombulian]

Yes, but we've already established in thread that you can't use AJ when flat-footed? Which was the whole reason for this Initiative arms race?

Ah yea that's what I get for skimming. Makes sense.

[Chronos]

For that matter, if the wizard is using an insta-kill like Fell Drain Sonic Snap, then Abrupt Jaunt is kind of pointless: By the time you can use it, you don't need to. Better instead to specialize in Transmutation or Evocation, so you can prepare two of those FDSSs, and thus also have a chance against, say, a wolf. I suppose in that case you could also keep your familiar, too.

[Flickerdart]

For that matter, if the wizard is using an insta-kill like Fell Drain Sonic Snap, then Abrupt Jaunt is kind of pointless: By the time you can use it, you don't need to. Better instead to specialize in Transmutation or Evocation, so you can prepare two of those FDSSs, and thus also have a chance against, say, a wolf. I suppose in that case you could also keep your familiar, too.
You can already do two (unless you have exactly 11 Intelligence). But the correct specialist could do three (or even four, if you're a Focused Specialist).

[(Un)Inspired]

Is there really no way to get the obtain familiar feat onto a first level wizard so they can have a familiar and abrupt jaunt?

[Chronos]

Remember, sonic snaps (evocation) aren't the only thing we're spending spell slots on. We also want Nerveskitter (transmutation), and if we're using Abrupt Jaunt (conjuration), we can't use our specialist slot on either of those.


Is there really no way to get the obtain familiar feat onto a first level wizard so they can have a familiar and abrupt jaunt?
If there is, it would take multiple feats, and the payoff of +2 initiative just isn't worth it.

[ahenobarbi]

To become a Necropolitan and live, a character has to have been level 3. By this same logic, a level 20 barbarian with full level 20 WBL who has been level drained to level 1 is also a level 1 character, and can just have a ring to protect himself.

I disagree. ECL 1 character with lvl 202 WBL is not following rules. Necropolitan barbarian 1 is a proper ECL 1 character.

I agree at most tables this wouldn't fly (similarily to how LA +(arbitrary number) character that advanced to (proper level) and bought of LA and was drained to level 1 afterwards wouldn't) but I think by RAW it's a fair game (and I saw people bringing wizards with 9th level spells to this thread) and thus worth mentioning.


The wizard can't have a hummingbird and Abrupt Jaunt both, as Abrupt Jaunt replaces your familiar. Or rather, you can, but it costs you a feat that it's probably not worth to get it back.


Is there really no way to get the obtain familiar feat onto a first level wizard so they can have a familiar and abrupt jaunt?

There is: take a feat.


Remember, sonic snaps (evocation) aren't the only thing we're spending spell slots on. We also want Nerveskitter (transmutation), and if we're using Abrupt Jaunt (conjuration), we can't use our specialist slot on either of those.


If there is, it would take multiple feats, and the payoff of +2 initiative just isn't worth it.

Abrupt Jaunt is an ACF, not a spell. Otherwise good point :)

[Zanos]

Abrupt Jaunt is an ACF, not a spell. Otherwise good point :)
Chronos is pointing out that in order to have Abrupt Jaunt, you need to be a conjuration specialist, so your specialist slot can't hold your fell drain sonic snap or a nerveskitter.

[ahenobarbi]

Chronos is pointing out that in order to have Abrupt Jaunt, you need to be a conjuration specialist, so your specialist slot can't hold your fell drain sonic snap or a nerveskitter.

I did spread reading of this thread over several hours of a flight and replied some time after getting back home so it was easy for me to misunderstand, thanks for explaining :)

Anyways, back to OP's question. It depends. You probably should discuss with your friend rules of the duel some more: are flaws allowed? If they are how many? Are technically ECL 1 characters that are produced by removing levels from high level characters allowed? Are wish-loops allowed? Do you have any preparation time (so you can use craft skills to increase your wealth, if so how much can you increase it?) or do you start fight right after character creation? What extra characters can you have (familiars, wild cohorts, hirelings, ...)? How / where do you fight (arena, forest, bar, randomly chosen from a table, ...)?

Answers to those questions greatly determine what characters are viable.