What are some crazy things you can do with Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight?

[Zeuel]

For some reason I missed the part where both of these subclasses can take 3 spells from any school at certain levels instead of only being able to have Enchantment/Illusion or Abjuration/Evocation specifically. What kind of things does that let you do now with those classes? I was considering as an Eldritch Knight you could grab Invisibility for escaping TPKs or maybe Greater Invisibility for a straight minute of advantage on all of your attacks rolls and disadvantages on attacks against you(if they can even locate you).

[Falka]

Trickster with Dimension Door, Arcane Eye or Fabricate?

[Lokiare]

As an EK that can cast a cantrip and still get their attacks, they could use True Strike every round to up their damage well past the Champion against mid to low AC opponents.

[CyberThread]

I don't know am rather fond of learning eldritch blast, on a EK , swing my sword at a chump, and hit someone far away from me as my bonus round.

[Zeuel]

I had one idea for an Eldritch Knight who might need to assassinate an arcane spellcaster for some reason. You could theoretically use Invisibility to sneak around, cast Hold Person on the spellcaster to stop reactions*, get a free attack and use the Sharpshooter ability, pop Action Surge and do 4 more attacks using the Sharpshooter ability. If you land Hold Person(which is a DC 19 and most arcane spell casters who are proficient in it would probably only have a +7 unless they ignored Dex/Con to pump up their Wis on top of proficiency) that grants advantage on your attack rolls and your turn would looks something like this:

5 attacks against AC 18(assuming Mage Armor and Dex 20) at +8 to attack(+6 prof/+5 from Dex 20/+2 from Archery feature/-5 for Sharpshooter) with advantage and each hit is going to deal 1d8+15 damage. Assuming on average that 4 of those 5 hit that is going to be roughly 78 damage on average. Your average Wizard/Sorcerer with no Con bonus is only going to have 82 hit points(add 20 hp for each extra Con mod they have) which means if the Fighter gets a crit or if the 5th attack hits or with a little bit of positive swinginess on the dice or if the Fighter is using a Crossbow with the mastery feat then a 10 Con Wizard/Sorcerer is toast while more durable arcane casters(e.g. Bards/Warlocks or higher con Wizards/Sorcerers) basically get one chance to make a will save or they are toast the next round when the Eldritch Knight can pop Action Surge again and unload 8 shots into them.

Alternately if the arcane spell caster passes and the Eldritch Knight gets a case of tiny heart syndrome then they can take their free attack from Improved War Magic anyways as a middle finger and then pop Action Surge to recast Invisibility, teleport away with Arcane Charge, and get the heck out of dodge.

Eldritch Knight: the new Assassin!

*although this working depends on various factors such as if you get surprise and whether or not the caster actually sees you upon the breaking of Invisibility due to casting Hold Person. Although technically if you had Confusion instead you could cast that at a greater range than Counterspell can counter to stop reactions although you wouldn't benefit from advantage sadly although 8 out of 10 results on the Confusion chart basically causes the spell caster to not have a turn the next turn.

[hawklost]

As an EK that can cast a cantrip and still get their attacks, they could use True Strike every round to up their damage well past the Champion against mid to low AC opponents.

You get a bonus action to use an attack after using your normal Action. Casting True Strike gives you advantage on the next attack.

You are wasting a chance to use 2 attacks with a single actions (from the lvl 5 ability) to give yourself advantage on the attack.

Normal
2 attacks with normal ability so 2 chances to hit and 2 chances to damage (1 from each attack)

Cantrip + Attack
1 attack using Bonus action with 2 chances to hit (advantage) but 1 damage

[Lokiare]

You get a bonus action to use an attack after using your normal Action. Casting True Strike gives you advantage on the next attack.

You are wasting a chance to use 2 attacks with a single actions (from the lvl 5 ability) to give yourself advantage on the attack.

Normal
2 attacks with normal ability so 2 chances to hit and 2 chances to damage (1 from each attack)

Cantrip + Attack
1 attack using Bonus action with 2 chances to hit (advantage) but 1 damage

So you can't make all your attacks. You have to choose? That sucks.

[Chaosvii7]

For some reason I missed the part where both of these subclasses can take 4 spells from any school at certain levels

Fixed that for you. You get a free spell known of any school when you first take the archetype as well. It's hidden in the text of the first set of spells you can take.

You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the abjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list.

[Zeuel]

Thank you. I guess in the future I shouldn't glance so quickly past the spells known section assuming they all say relatively the same thing. :P

[pwykersotz]

I'm playing a level 3 Eldritch Knight, and here are the tricks I plan.

Variant Human with the Sharpshooter Feat. Use True Strike and hit an enemy for 1d8 + Dex + 10 at 600 feet, ignoring up to 3/4 cover

Find Familiar as eyes in the sky.

Weapon Bond so I don't have to put away my bow when I need to grab my sword, swapping between them freely by summoning.

At level three there aren't THAT many tricks you can pull, but once you get to level 7...

Mirror Image and Invisibility are a must. Then True-Strike, Fire, True-Strike, Fire taking the -5 penalty each time to add 10 damage.

When they get close, Gust of Wind can keep them at distance, even though it invalidates True Strike. So just unload with multiple attacks while changing the direction of the wind to adapt to new challenges.

I haven't had time to consider more yet. :smalltongue:

[rlc]

Melf's Acid Arrow, Arrow

[da_chicken]

You get a bonus action to use an attack after using your normal Action. Casting True Strike gives you advantage on the next attack.

Not quite. It gives you advantage on your first attack next round against a single target you specify. It explicitly says "first attack next round". You can cast it round 1 and pick the target within 30 feet round 1, but it doesn't affect anything until round 2. So round 1 you cast True Strike, select your target, and then next round your first attack against that same target has advantage. It's fairly narrow unless you're trying to conserve ammunition. The cantrip also requires Concentration, so you have to pass any Constitution saves until then.

The best use for it I can think of for it is to cancel out disadvantage.

[Chaosvii7]

This is why I'm glad they didn't include brief descriptions of the spell effects with the names like they did in 3.X. More often than not, people just skimmed the description of the spell and said "Alright, I'm sold." They'd sometimes even just use the one sentence description as RAW and RAI; They knew that the spell had a full list of text telling you explicitly everything you know, but it never dawned on them to look at it, and they just ended up trusting that one sentence to explain everything they would need to know.

[rlc]

to be fair, if the one sentence says "your next attack" instead of "your first attack of the next round, i can understand why people would see it that way. if you're going to summarize something, you should at least make the summary sound like it says the same thing as the full version (unless it's a parody, but that's irrelevant in this situation).

[Fable Wright]

As an EK that can cast a cantrip and still get their attacks, they could use True Strike every round to up their damage well past the Champion against mid to low AC opponents.

Now, I'm going by memory alone here, but isn't Blade Ward a cantrip as well, and doesn't it grant Resistance to weapon damage until your next turn? How is True Strike a better cantrip to use than that?

[da_chicken]

Now, I'm going by memory alone here, but isn't Blade Ward a cantrip as well, and doesn't it grant Resistance to weapon damage until your next turn? How is True Strike a better cantrip to use than that?

If I'm fighting a bunch of Bone Devils, their claws and teeth aren't particularly impressed by my resistance to weapon damage.

[pwykersotz]

If I'm fighting a bunch of Bone Devils, their claws and teeth aren't particularly impressed by my resistance to weapon damage.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think natural weapons still count. It just doesn't effect spells or supernatural abilities that do damage of those types.

[hawklost]

If I'm fighting a bunch of Bone Devils, their claws and teeth aren't particularly impressed by my resistance to weapon damage.

So they don't do Bludgeoning, Piercing or Slashing damage? well then what kind of damage do these Bone Devils Do?

[Serafina]

The contention is the "dealt by weapons" part - the argument is that natural weapons are not weapons.
However, monster statistics list natural attacks - such as a panthers bite and claw as "melee weapon attacks", so that is clearly flawed from a RAW-perspective.
The other possible argument is "it's called Blade Ward, so it only works against manufactured weapons" - but that is VERY thin, since that is only the name of the spell.

So yes, Blade Ward works just fine against those Bone Devils, as long as they are not throwing spells at you.
And spamming Blade Ward actually makes for a pretty good meatshield, which arguably makes the Eldritch Knight the most tank-capable archetype.

[TheOOB]

"Natural Weapon" doesn't appear to be a game rules term in 5e that I can see, just some creatures have attacks they can make that are unarmed. The Alter Self spell is the only reference to the term, and it's literally is an ability that makes your unarmed strikes suck less.

Considering that the word "Weapon" is defined as "any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon." and blade ward specifically mentions damage "by a weapon", a creatures unarmed strikes or "natural weapons" would not be blocked by blade ward. The name of the spell has nothing to do with it.

[Fable Wright]

"Natural Weapon" doesn't appear to be a game rules term in 5e that I can see, just some creatures have attacks they can make that are unarmed.
Me? I see the lines "Bite: Melee Weapon Attack", "Tusk: Melee Weapon Attack", and "Claws: Melee Weapon Attack" on page 304 of the Player's Handbook, and I just assume that they count as weapon attacks for some reason. Go figure that they counted as some kind of "Natural Weapon" that doesn't exist, and therefore don't count as weapons. :smallconfused:


And spamming Blade Ward actually makes for a pretty good meatshield, which arguably makes the Eldritch Knight the most tank-capable archetype.
Much as I wish this were true, that title goes to Barbarians. They get resistance to weapon damage without giving up attacks, have more incentive to invest in Con, and a higher HD than Eldritch Knights. Bear-totem also resists all magic damage types but Psychic.

[CyberThread]

How does a ek archer stack against a ranger archer?

[EvilAnagram]

How does a ek archer stack against a ranger archer?

You don't get any of the spells that specifically make your ranged attacks awesome (Conjure Volley, Lightning Arrow), so not well.

[da_chicken]

You don't get any of the spells that specifically make your ranged attacks awesome (Conjure Volley, Lightning Arrow), so not well.

Instead you just get spells that are awesome ranged attacks (Fireball, Shatter, Scorching Ray, etc.) Truly the only advantage the Ranger gets is that he usually gets to use his Dex for his attack rolls, while the EK has to use Dex or Int as appropriate.

And sure, Conjure Volley is cool and all, but you get it at 17th level. Level 1 & 2 is where you want to look for the meat for the character, although it's very nice to see Freedom of Movement on the list. Both Ensnaring Strike and Hunter's Mark are very powerful at 1st level. Cordon of Arrows is reasonable in combat and a good Alarm-like spell. Hail of Thorns creates some pretty sick damage ramp, too. Archery is clearly the DPS build for Ranger.

[EvilAnagram]

Instead you just get spells that are awesome ranged attacks (Fireball, Shatter, Scorching Ray, etc.) Truly the only advantage the Ranger gets is that he usually gets to use his Dex for his attack rolls, while the EK has to use Dex or Int as appropriate.

And sure, Conjure Volley is cool and all, but you get it at 17th level. Level 1 & 2 is where you want to look for the meat for the character, although it's very nice to see Freedom of Movement on the list. Both Ensnaring Strike and Hunter's Mark are very powerful at 1st level. Cordon of Arrows is reasonable in combat and a good Alarm-like spell. Hail of Thorns creates some pretty sick damage ramp, too. Archery is clearly the DPS build for Ranger.
Don't forget Spike Growth. It's a great deterrent for melee enemies, and can be a nasty start to an ambush.

[LucianoAr]

what about the trickster?

aside from the obvious uses of true strike and invisibility... mage hand smells great on paper, but i dont know how useful it would be in the real world

[Symphony]

what about the trickster?

aside from the obvious uses of true strike and invisibility... mage hand smells great on paper, but i dont know how useful it would be in the real world

Well, they do get an ability that allows them free advantage on an enemy every round using mage hand. So that's useful. Neither Mage Armor nor Mirror Image require concentration, so you can stack them both with greater invisibility or haste to make yourself really difficult to hit (mainly mentioning this because Arcane Tricksters are likely to have great Dex, which both Mage Armor and Mirror Image benefit from).

[UHF]

Now, I'm going by memory alone here, but isn't Blade Ward a cantrip as well, and doesn't it grant Resistance to weapon damage until your next turn? How is True Strike a better cantrip to use than that?
Ummm... Now this is interesting... Blade Ward and Shield would work a treat. You can also do that with an actual shield using the War Caster Feat.

[Rilak]

Ummm... Now this is interesting... Blade Ward and Shield would work a treat. You can also do that with an actual shield using the War Caster Feat.

Some arcane focuses should be possible to wield as weapons anyway. The Spider Staff specifically lists that it is a quarterstaff (and since it is magic, it passes damage reduction). I would rule that an arcane focus (staff) can also be used as a quarterstaff. And of course, that a magical staff or wand can be used as an arcane focus...

And then all EK's could choose staff+shield without a feat. (You do lose out on 1d8 damage, but if you will cast Blade Ward + a single attack per turn, this is not a big deal to you)

[Giant2005]

I don't know if it counts as crazy but picking up Blur is a no-brainer. Constant disadvantage to anyone attacking you plus the highter AC of a Fighter = win.