Can a non-spellcaster become a lich?

[equinoxmaster]

In 3.5/pathfinder can a non-spellcaster obtain a phylactery and become a lich?

[Yuki Akuma]

Theoretically, an Artificer might be able to fake the 'must be capable of casting spells' requirement with Use Magic Device.

Otherwise? Nope.

[equinoxmaster]

I thought if a rogue gets a hold of a phylactery (rogues have use magic device and in pathfinder they have the minor and major magic rogue talents) they could become a lich

[Yuki Akuma]

I thought if a rogue gets a hold of a phylactery (rogues have use magic device and in pathfinder they have the minor and major magic rogue talents) they could become a lich

You have to create a phylactery to become a lich. It involves putting your immortal soul in a box.

Having a box containing some other dude's soul doesn't make you a lich.

[With a box]

You have to create a phylactery to become a lich. It involves putting your immortal soul in a box.

Having a box containing some other dude's soul doesn't make you a lich.
But she can become rich, isn't she?

[Yuki Akuma]

You could probably sell the phylactery of an evil lich to a church who want to destroy it, sure. Although they might insist on paying you in 'spellcasting service credit' instead of cash. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

You have to create a phylactery to become a lich. It involves putting your immortal soul in a box.

Having a box containing some other dude's soul doesn't make you a lich.
Ooh, sounds like a good idea for a minor boss, some crazy rogue who owns someone else's phylactery (stole it, is why) and thinks it makes them immortal, so they Disguise themselves as lich, using UMD for the spells.

[equinoxmaster]

You have to create a phylactery to become a lich. It involves putting your immortal soul in a box.

Having a box containing some other dude's soul doesn't make you a lich.

i thought you could have someone else create and prepare the phylactery. then you put your soul in it

[Yuki Akuma]

At no point do the rules ever suggest that that is a possibility.

To become a lich, you need to create a phylactery. Having someone else create your phylactery for you isn't creating a phylactery.

And no, Start of Darkness is not evidence that it's possible.

[some guy]

In pathfinder, characters proficient with heavy armor could become Grave Knights (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/graveknight-cr-2), which are pretty much non-caster battle-liches.
(The method to become one voluntary is at the bottom, under "variants".)

[sakuuya]

i thought you could have someone else create and prepare the phylactery. then you put your soul in it

Are you thinking of the Necropolitan template, maybe? That's a ritual that someone else performs on you to make you a free-willed undead.

[Chronos]

You could maybe do it under the "collaborate to create a magic item" rules. The lich template itself doesn't actually require anything more than "humanoid" and "able to create the phylactery", and it never says that you have to create it without help.

[darkbuu_1]

In an issue of Dragon magazine dedicated to Vecna and his following it states that there is a method of creating a "lesser phylactery", which are useable by non-spellcasters wishing to become undead. These "lesser liches" posses standard undead traits as well as being able to reform from their phylactery after a few weeks, but that's all they get.

This however, is all it has to say on the matter, no templates, nothing to say whether they are made by non-casters or just used by them, not even a picture. So the answer to your question is kinda, but no one knows how.

Dragon Magazine 348, page 23.

[Coidzor]

In 3.5/pathfinder can a non-spellcaster obtain a phylactery and become a lich?

No, you're in homebrew/houserule territory.

Why do you want to make non-spellcaster Liches? Generally there's a better template for the various types of NPC you'd want to throw at a party.


Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher.


Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher.

Admittedly, in Pathfinder having even a single SLA with CL 11 and Craft Wondrous Item may be sufficient.

[SaintRidley]

Well, depends, I guess. Do you have spell-like abilities at will and the Outsider type (and can create a phylactery - CL 11+)? Lichfiend.

[KillianHawkeye]

Technically, I suppose any Humanoid creature who has a spell-like ability with a CL of 11 or higher and who's taken the Craft Wondrous Item feat (using their SLA to meet the CL requirement) could just dip a level into any full spellcasting class and be able to meet the requirements as written to craft the phylactery and enter into lichdom.



Example: A 10th-level Drow Rogue (ECL 12) who picked up CWI at any time after 3rd level spends his next level to become a 1st-level Wizard. The Drow's racial SLAs have a caster level equal to their total class levels, now 11. He has the feat, and he is capable of casting spells. POOF! Drow Rogue Lich!

Or wait, EVEN BETTER: A Duergar with 5 levels of Fighter! The Duergar's racial SLAs are as a wizard of TWICE his caster levels (minimum CL 3), so he can even take CWI at 1st level and qualify for lichdom by taking a level of Cleric or whatever he wants at 6th! And it's got a lower level adjustment than the Drow does! Become a Lich at ECL 7? YES! Because SCIENCE! I mean, DUERGAR!

I'm not too sure how many other humanoid races get SLAs that scale with their level, but you could even be an 11th level Warlock or Dragonfire Adept in a pinch.


EDIT: Damn, now I really wanna find a good prestige class enterable by a 5th level Fighter that grants its own spellcasting progression from level 1. THIS IS TOO GOOD OF AN IDEA!! :smallcool::smallbiggrin::smallwink::smallredface: :smalleek:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not a 3.5 lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm), at least:

"Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation."

[nedz]

There is an alternate route courtesy of Sandstorm's Dry Lich template, but you need to enter complete the Walker in the Waste PrC. This has the lesser requirement of: Spells: Ability to cast at least three spells of the Sand or Thirst domain as divine spells.

This should be easier.

Maybe some class could fake this ?
Chameleon maybe ?

But it's not easy; remember: in 3.5 Casters win — even if you desire to become an immortal undead.

[hamishspence]

You have to create a phylactery to become a lich. It involves putting your immortal soul in a box.


According to Complete Divine - the lich traps its soul in its own undead body, not in the box.

Makes more sense that the soul retreats to the phylactery when the body is destroyed, and grows a new body in the vicinity of the phylactery - then enters it.

[Yuki Akuma]

There is an alternate route courtesy of Sandstorm's Dry Lich template, but you need to enter complete the Walker in the Waste PrC. This has the lesser requirement of: Spells: Ability to cast at least three spells of the Sand or Thirst domain as divine spells.

This should be easier.

Maybe some class could fake this ?
Chameleon maybe ?

But it's not easy; remember: in 3.5 Casters win — even if you desire to become an immortal undead.

Chamaleon can't fake his way into Walker in the Waste - his Aptitude Focus explicitly doesn't qualify him for feats or prestige classes. A Bard 5/Chameleon 6 could become a lich using his Chameleon casting, though, I think. He needs Bard to qualify for Craft Wondrous Item, though.

[Azoth]

Human
Trait:
Trait: Spell Gifted
Flaw: Reserves of Strength
Flaw:magical training gives you spells to use and CL1.
1st: Spell Thematics
3rd: Primitive Caster
6th: Planar Touchstone: Catalouges of Enlightenment
9th: Craft Wonderous Item

Locations:
Otugyu Hole (for Iron will to get RoS) 3k
Shieldstone Cavern 1K

Magical Training (1) + spellgifted (1) + Spell Thematics (1) +RoS (3) + PT (1)+ PC (2)+ SC (1)=10

Pick another +1 CL item up and you have CL11 (for abjurations) and meet the spells requirement on any class.

This character is unoptimized as all get out and ecl9 but it works on ANY class chassis to become a litch.
The character is unoptimized

[sideswipe]

i know that no DM would allow it but as a RAW TO could a warlock use its ability to trick the phalactary into thinking he was able to cast the spells to create the magic item? is that possible?

[Thurbane]

An evil outsider that meets certain criteria can become a Lichfiend (Lich variant, LM) without any actual spellcasting (already pointed out by SaintRidley).

The Sepulchral Thief (Cityscape) is a very Lich-like template that can be gained with no spellcasting.

[Chronos]

i know that no DM would allow it but as a RAW TO could a warlock use its ability to trick the phalactary into thinking he was able to cast the spells to create the magic item? is that possible?

Of course it's possible-- A warlock meets all the prerequisites. Why wouldn't a DM allow it?

[ShurikVch]

Dracoliches actually doesn't need any spellcasting:
“Dracolich” is an acquired template that can be added to any evil dragon

If ToM available
1. Binder 7
2. Bind Astaroth, the Unjustly Fallen, select Craft Wondrous Item for Master Craftsman
3. Ask someone to cast on you Imbue with Spell Ability
4. Get enough CL-boosters to raise your CL up to 11
5. Craft your phylactery...

Also, how about asking some divine intervention from lich-related deities (such as Velsharoon or Mellifleur)?

1. Join the church
2. Buy scroll of Miracle
3. Ask nicely: "Please, make me into lich"

[sideswipe]

Of course it's possible-- A warlock meets all the prerequisites. Why wouldn't a DM allow it?

because a warlock doesn't really cast spells. it even explicitly states in the warlock entry in complete arcane (i'm reading it now) that its abilities are not spells. and since the phalactery requires "able to cast spells AND have a caster level of 11+". so it does not qualify naturally to make a phalactery.

but, since it can imbue item, tricking the item to thinking it can cast any spell required to make it, so it tricks it into thinking it has spell casting.

i don't think i am wrong they are both pretty explicit lines

must be able to cast spells
invocations are not spells.

[ShurikVch]

because a warlock doesn't really cast spells. it even explicitly states in the warlock entry in complete arcane (i'm reading it now) that its abilities are not spells. and since the phalactery requires "able to cast spells AND have a caster level of 11+". so it does not qualify naturally to make a phalactery.

but, since it can imbue item, tricking the item to thinking it can cast any spell required to make it, so it tricks it into thinking it has spell casting.

i don't think i am wrong they are both pretty explicit lines

must be able to cast spells
invocations are not spells. Lichfiend from Libris Mortis is basically the same standard Lich, except it give you extra DR 15/good and bludgeoning, and required evil outsider with at least five at-will spell-like abilities, the Craft Wondrous Item feat, and a caster level of 11 or higher to construct its phylactery.
Warlock at level 11 have 7 invocations. Select some outsider, such as Neraph (Planar Handbook) or Glimmerfolk (Dragon #321) - both LA+0 -, and it's legal

[sideswipe]

Lichfiend from Libris Mortis is basically the same standard Lich, except it give you extra DR 15/good and bludgeoning, and required evil outsider with at least five at-will spell-like abilities, the Craft Wondrous Item feat, and a caster level of 11 or higher to construct its phylactery.
Warlock at level 11 have 7 invocations. Select some outsider, such as Neraph (Planar Handbook) or Glimmerfolk (Dragon #321) - both LA+0 -, and it's legal

the only thing you need there is the evil subtype as that is what i believe evil outsider means not alignment evil. if so there is a pretty cheap ritual in savage species to give you the evil subtype.

and i am trying to see if straight humanoid warlock can become an average lich, there are many ways to emulate lich.

[SaintRidley]

I read it as be an Outsider who happens to be evil. If you had to have the evil subtype, it would say Evil Outsider (note the important caps). I'm away from my book, but I don't think it's the latter.

My preference is something like an evil Tiefling or Aasimar (hooray buyoff) into Warlock 12.






EDIT: Damn, now I really wanna find a good prestige class enterable by a 5th level Fighter that grants its own spellcasting progression from level 1. THIS IS TOO GOOD OF AN IDEA!! :smallcool::smallbiggrin::smallwink::smallredface: :smalleek:

Suel Arcanamach if 6 levels of Fighter isn't too horrible to comprehend.

[Thurbane]

Also, how about asking some divine intervention from lich-related deities (such as Velsharoon or Mellifleur)?

Was there ever a 3.X update of Mellifleur? If so, I'd love to see it...the official god of lichdom! :smallsmile:

[gurgleflep]

This list may come in handy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?298793-3-X-variant-liches) :smallbiggrin:

[ShurikVch]

Was there ever a 3.X update of Mellifleur? If so, I'd love to see it...the official god of lichdom! :smallsmile:Dragon #359, pg. 121

[KillianHawkeye]

It may not be RAW exactly, but I'd totally allow a Warlock with Imbue Item and the Craft Wondrous Item feat to become a Lich. Doesn't seem unbalanced in the slightest.

[sideswipe]

It may not be RAW exactly, but I'd totally allow a Warlock with Imbue Item and the Craft Wondrous Item feat to become a Lich. Doesn't seem unbalanced in the slightest.

thats what i was thinking.

[AMFV]

Any non-spellcaster that counts as a dragon can become a Dracolich.

[sideswipe]

Any non-spellcaster that counts as a dragon can become a Dracolich.

yes, but a dracolich and a lich are not the same thing, neither are any other variants. there are ways to become "basicly" a lich but not the lich itself.

[AMFV]

yes, but a dracolich and a lich are not the same thing, neither are any other variants. there are ways to become "basicly" a lich but not the lich itself.

If you exclude variants then RAW, the answer is flat out "No". It specifies that to be able to build a pylactory you have to be able to cast spells. The Warlock's Imbue Item does not get around this requirement, since the Warlock's ability deals with "knowing spells" and the Lich requirement is being able to cast them.

[sideswipe]

If you exclude variants then RAW, the answer is flat out "No". It specifies that to be able to build a pylactory you have to be able to cast spells. The Warlock's Imbue Item does not get around this requirement, since the Warlock's ability deals with "knowing spells" and the Lich requirement is being able to cast them.


He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of
a required spell he doesn’t know or can’t cast.

emphasis mine.

so he can use it to replace spells he cant cast by RAW.

[AMFV]

emphasis mine.

so he can use it to replace spells he cant cast by RAW.

I stand corrected, a warlock could probably become a Lich, although it's not really worth the effort for them.

[sideswipe]

I stand corrected, a warlock could probably become a Lich, although it's not really worth the effort for them.

yep, there is exactly one exception without artefacts or divine intervention. but again its not really worth it. you can get most of the lich stuff as a warlock, its just all of the lich stuff is a bit better. more DR blah blah.

[KillianHawkeye]

Or wait, EVEN BETTER: A Duergar with 5 levels of Fighter! The Duergar's racial SLAs are as a wizard of TWICE his caster levels (minimum CL 3), so he can even take CWI at 1st level and qualify for lichdom by taking a level of Cleric or whatever he wants at 6th! And it's got a lower level adjustment than the Drow does! Become a Lich at ECL 7? YES! Because SCIENCE! I mean, DUERGAR!

EDIT: Damn, now I really wanna find a good prestige class enterable by a 5th level Fighter that grants its own spellcasting progression from level 1. THIS IS TOO GOOD OF AN IDEA!! :smallcool::smallbiggrin::smallwink::smallredface: :smalleek:

Okay, I've decided on the Pious Templar (Complete Divine).

Dark Templars of Nerull (the mass-produced Lich army)
Any Evil
Duergar <any Full BAB class> 5 / Pious Templar 1, into Lich template, then additional levels of Pious Templar or basically whatever you want.

Feats required: True Believer, Craft Wondrous Item, Weapon Focus (deities' favored weapon) *all attainable at 1st level, take in any order (take at least 1 Fighter level for the Weapon Focus, or use Flaws to get extra Feats)*

Skills required: 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) *attainable by 5th level even with cross-class skill costs*

Benefits: early access to Lich template (ECL 7) with all associated abilities, gains Mettle (pretty useful for Undead), 1st-level divine spellcasting using Blackguard spell list, one open feat slot at level 6 for whatever you want, cool racial abilities, and a good amount of discretion for obtaining other class abilities on the way.

Potential downsides: Duergar's enlarge person SLA no longer functions after becoming undead, racial Charisma penalty hurts Lich save DCs, other people will be jealous of how awesome you are.



This setup brings new meaning to the idea of a "combat Lich," which is interesting because I'm not sure that's an idea I've ever actually heard before. These guys could function superbly as the captains and generals of an unstoppable undead army, especially since their CR can be scaled up by just adding more class levels. Or you could use it as a more singular villain. And your players will never suspect it!
:ERROR - maniacal laughter smiley not found:

[Xaktsaroth]

If I"m remember entry reqs correctly:

Duergar Warblade 3/Rogue 1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 9/Evil Jade Phoenix Mage 5 or Abjurant Champion 5

A combat focused build, that uses it's small amount of magic to boost it's melee presense. Really screw people up. :P

[Chronos]

So, a gich?

[AMFV]

yep, there is exactly one exception without artefacts or divine intervention. but again its not really worth it. you can get most of the lich stuff as a warlock, its just all of the lich stuff is a bit better. more DR blah blah.

I would argue that Warlocks count as Spellcasters, I mean they have a caster level. Just because they cast a different variety of spells doesn't make them not spell casters.

[SaintRidley]

Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling work just as well as Duergar - plus you get the one extra HD from a class level - particularly if the game elects to use psionics and doesn't let psionics do lichiness.

Alternately, if your DM lets you qualify with a psionic Duergar, now you have Expansion instead of Enlarge Person.

[KillianHawkeye]

Lesser Aasimar or Tiefling work just as well as Duergar - plus you get the one extra HD from a class level - particularly if the game elects to use psionics and doesn't let psionics do lichiness.

Alternately, if your DM lets you qualify with a psionic Duergar, now you have Expansion instead of Enlarge Person.

While I would be totally down for the idea of a psionic Lich, the psionic version of the Duergar has a manifester level for it's psi-like abilities equal to their total Hit Dice, rather than the "twice your class levels" caster level SLAs that the original version gets. :smallconfused::smallfrown: