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Ranis
2007-03-06, 01:04 PM
What makes the best Villains? Is it a sadistic monster that just won't die, or the deceitful mastermind?

Opinions?

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-06, 01:08 PM
I don't know if there is a "best" villain. Certainly there are plenty.

I'm going to go with Deceitful Mastermind, coupled with a big, obvious target villain.

Neo
2007-03-06, 01:20 PM
I'd go with a mastermind type, someone who uses their power to influence and gain influence and operates through agents.

Not the 'i'm a big skull wearing guy in a big black castle, nobody could possibly suspect me' types.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-06, 01:38 PM
I like the highly competent, likable villain for whom the heroes develop a measure of respect and possibly friendship.

NullAshton
2007-03-06, 01:40 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html)

Why not look at Rich Burlew's ideas on how to make a villian?

Saph
2007-03-06, 01:42 PM
'Sadistic monster that just won't die' can be a great antagonist. Especially if you don't tell the PCs about the 'just won't die' part, but let them find out through practice.

The trouble with the 'evil mastermind' type is that they never show themselves to the party. Which kind of takes the fun out of the whole villain thing - you've created a really cool bad guy, but your PCs are never going to get to see him.

- Saph

rollfrenzy
2007-03-06, 01:46 PM
One of the best villians I faced was the Evil mastermind guy who was smart enough to escape every freakin time, but arrogant and would taunt us at every turn. He was smart and evil and would just let us not catch him.

We actually had to adventure with him for a short time even.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-06, 02:27 PM
One that doesn't die within five minutes of meeting the PC's.

Wippit Guud
2007-03-06, 02:29 PM
The best villian has to feel justified by what he's doing, ragardless of what he has to do to achieve it. A really good example is what Harry Osborne will do in the Spider Man movies eventually... has to be the villian to avenge his father death, and if he must become the Goblin to do it, so be it - it's Spider Man's fault that he was forced to do so.

Maxymiuk
2007-03-06, 02:30 PM
The one that walks into the tavern, hands one of the PC's a kitten with the words "Keep him out of harm's way," walks out, and proceeds to obliterate half the town for kicks.

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-06, 02:30 PM
The Giant. Evil giants ( the intelligent ones) are a huge bane to PCs because they are tough enough to handle their own in toe-to-toe and big enough to be hugely intimidating. Not very stealthy, but when the PCs find themselves in a huge antechamber and they hear the heaviest of heavy footfalls...well, that makes for a brown-trousers moment.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-03-06, 02:31 PM
I like the idea of a villain that the PCs routinely work for, whose later plans turn out to be diabolically evil. It's great if you can do it.

MegasquidMan
2007-03-06, 02:35 PM
Hows about the Mastermind who actually is the sadistic monster, but doesn't show that parts of him/her/it until much later?

Eh? Eh? You see how my mind works? Genius, I say!

Swordguy
2007-03-06, 02:37 PM
I like the idea of a villain that the PCs routinely work for, whose later plans turn out to be diabolically evil. It's great if you can do it.

Doing things like having the PCs wake up every now and then with a bag of coin and a note on their beds saying "Your actions are meeting our expectations perfectly. Congratulations. Sincerely, The Illithid Council".

It doesn't matter what they do; these notes just keep appearing. :smallbiggrin:

jjpickar
2007-03-06, 02:38 PM
One that knows what he is doing is absolutely despicable but could care less and is extremely humorous. He is not insane; he is just unrepentant. I'm thinking along the lines of Final Fantasy VI's General Kefka.

XenoGeno
2007-03-06, 03:10 PM
Hows about the Mastermind who actually is the sadistic monster, but doesn't show that parts of him/her/it until much later?

Eh? Eh? You see how my mind works? Genius, I say!

I've seen a few villains like that. It's actually fairly common in manga and anime. The first and foremost one that comes to mind is Grineed from Beet the Vandel Buster.

Folie
2007-03-06, 07:29 PM
I've always been a fan of the kind of villain who adopts a child or protege in order to warp the poor kid into serving his or her own ends. Examples include Miss Havisham from Great Expectations and Emperor Palpatine from the Star Wars films.

Dhavaer
2007-03-06, 07:33 PM
The competitor. The guy with the other party who tries to get the MacGuffin before the PCs, and buys them drinks afterwards.

cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 07:34 PM
Emeraude from Magic Knight Rayearth.

Dhavaer
2007-03-06, 07:41 PM
Hal Bolingbroke, from The Crucible. Because he combines manipulator, warrior and king into one villianous/anti-heroic package. Also, he stops time, turns into a Plantagenet lion and is crowned King of England.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 10:07 PM
Villains that keep surprising you, but not in a Dues Ex Machina way. Spells that change the tide of the whole battle by changing the way you must fight your foe, really being a simalcrum, being a pawn possesed by the main vilain the whole time, ect.

Jarawara
2007-03-07, 01:00 AM
A childhood friend, or someone they knew for a long time, an ally, a supporter, someone they'd never suspect from their hometown. Even a parent, sibling, or child. Even better if they had some kind of falling out in the past, so that the players see the seeds that turned the BBEG evil in the first place.

Scalenex
2007-03-07, 02:49 AM
Characters who are not really villains, but anti-heroes who bear as many uncanny ressemblances to the PCs as possible (barring evil twins).

"Do not become what you fight!"
"There but the grace of god go I"
etc etc

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-03-07, 03:25 AM
The best villian is the one that players learn to rely upon throughout the campaign. The ally they love, who guides them along the path to glory. This villian uses the party to achieve one seemingly good goal after another, foiling the plans of a series of false masterminds only to, in the end, have supplied the real villian with the means by which he/she/it is all but immune to all the favored tactics of the party. When done well, the look of hurt and betrayal fueled rage is priceless.

Subotei
2007-03-07, 04:59 AM
One great example of the unseen manipulative genius and how to play him is Kaiser Soze from The Usual Suspects.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0114814/

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-07, 05:16 AM
You ever read the Coldfire trilogy?

You know Gerald Tarrant?

yeah. Him.

Desaril
2007-03-07, 04:04 PM
For once I agree with BWL! I need a drink!!! Considering our divergent viewpoints on most posts, I'm happy to see that even we have common ground. I think there's hope for world peace!!!

I actually like the villain who doesn't feel like he's a villain. Whether because he's insane or just mistaken, he feels like what he's doing is right and therefore will take the time to invite the heroes to see things his way. Many of the posters have referred to this (Harry Osborne, Palpatine). Ultimately, a villain of this type makes the heroes second-guess themselves and think about what they are doing.

A good story chronicles the development of the proagonist and the antagonist is the principle catalyst for that change. The antagonist should inspire character development as the heroes either change their beliefs or have them reinforced by the test of faith. If the only change in the PCs after meeting the villain is more treasure, more XP, less HP and a really cool tavern story, you are missing a great literary opportunity.

daggaz
2007-03-07, 04:14 PM
Yeah, as said before, definitely the guy who maneuvers the party into unleashing horrible evils on the world, all in the guise of goodness (carefully worded phrasing can always defeat a sense motive check, and after the first quest or two, the PC's will probably stop doubting completely if they ever did.) Nothing says shock and evil like ultimate betrayal.

The thing is, if the BBEG is evil in and of himself, seperate from the party, then he becomes cliché at the worst, and an object at the least. If the party is drawn into it, actually becomes a tool of the evil, then you have placed your hooks into your players' hearts.

Matthew
2007-03-07, 07:09 PM
The best villains are the ones the Players come to hate.

Noneoyabizzness
2007-03-07, 07:22 PM
goblin. kobolds have earned respect since 3rd edition for some reason, but nobody ever expets a high powered golbin adversary. especially if early on they become part of the group as a acky npc or assumed comic relief.

let him control his greatest enemies from within

Ranis
2007-03-08, 09:56 AM
I like the idea of a villain that the PCs routinely work for, whose later plans turn out to be diabolically evil. It's great if you can do it.

That's what I'm building up to in my game right now; actually, I'm going to introduce several villains throughout the course of the campaign, then throw them all up against my party at once in a huge, climactic fight. I can do that, I have 10 PC's. :D

pestilenceawaits
2007-03-08, 10:02 AM
I am big on the LE mastermind whose hand is always present but is rarely seen it gives the PCs the time to truly learn to despise him and fear him even a bit. Sometimes you can even add a little of the mastermind who won't die in there as well by letting them kill a simimimliccraculumunum(sp):smallbiggrin: or clone

alchemy.freak
2007-03-08, 12:29 PM
the best villain is the one that comes out of nowhere, usually an NPC that the players may dismiss as trivial

Example. as most adventures start in a tavern with a friendly bartender, the bartender on our adventure turned to be the villain. apparently he enjoyed necromancy as a hobby

Jason Va hater
2007-03-17, 08:34 AM
The best villian has to feel justified by what he's doing, ragardless of what he has to do to achieve it. A really good example is what Harry Osborne will do in the Spider Man movies eventually... has to be the villian to avenge his father death, and if he must become the Goblin to do it, so be it - it's Spider Man's fault that he was forced to do so.

Speaking of Spider man and good villains I heard a good quote from Wilam Defoe. He was being interviewed about playing the villain in spider man and the interviewer asked him what do you like to play better the hero or the villain and his answer was something like “Either, both think that they are just as righteous as the other”

I think the best villain is one that through play has not only escaped the party justice many times but has punished the party severely for interrupting his plans. He should have a special place in his black heart for the party. The members of the party should also have personal reasons to hate him just as much. Other than that he should be both the Mastermind and the Monster.

The best villains are the ones there the party learns to fear through deeds and not just reputation or title

Oh man I love villainy.

Falrin
2007-03-17, 09:01 AM
"The untouchable one"

Not much fun at first sight, but you’ll have to be creative. A perfect start is a high aristocracy type, probably linked with the major good church and married to the kings daughter. A mid-level NPC aristocrat should work fine if you can get him some more magic items.
“I’ve been fooled by someone … by someone with … with an NPC class? I feel dirty inside”

The PC’s should discover, more by luck than anything else that this guy is trying to kill the king/unleash demons/sacrifice the capital to his god/kill a puppy and some kittens. But what’s next? They can’t accuse him without proof and this while he’ll try to kill them. Have you ever been send by your own BBeG on a ‘suicide’ mission? Or maybe he got his beloved stepfather to ask you nicely?

Assassin squads coming after you, rigged missions you have to accomplish, burglaries & investigation to get some proof and all this without trying to insult your BBeG should make an for an exciting campaign.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-17, 09:09 AM
The non-mustache-twirling-nyah-ha-ha type villain.

I'm working on a LG villain for a non-evil game now.

Brauron
2007-03-17, 11:38 AM
Dr. Fu Manchu from the original Sax Rohmer novels. Manipulative, devastatingly intelligent (several decades ahead of his time in terms of chemistry, biology, toxicology, etc.) and with legions of minions to do his bidding, plus various poisonous spiders, centipedes, scorpions, toxic fungi, etc. he could use to deal with annoyances.

bosssmiley
2007-03-17, 11:57 AM
The Teflon B*st*rd: magnificently smug and stylish SOBs who always seem to worm their way out of trouble. They really get to my players (and to me as a player). Nothing else is quite like the satisfaction of finally cornering such a villain and finally, finally, opening the can marked "Overdue Retribution" all over him. :smallbiggrin:

"Of course, you could do what you've wanted to for months now and just shoot me where I stand, but then I wouldn't be able to give the signal to prevent my regrettably over-zealous associates from killing the child..."

I never mastered the art of creating cool villains the players want to be more like (Vader, Saruman, Raven from "Snow Crash"), and my misguided zealots almost always reform in the face of greater evils, but I can do perfidious little sh*ts (like Commodus or the villain of the first "Dirty Harry" film) worringly well.

Oh, linkylinky time: Forgotten Futures 6: Victorian Villainy (http://www.forgottenfutures.com/game/ff6/) - the definitive sourcebook for members of the cape-wearing, moustache-twirling, evilly-laughing fraternity.

Attilargh
2007-03-17, 12:27 PM
Read a book by Terry Pratchett. Nick a villain from there. Carcer from Night Watch is awesome.

Nahal
2007-03-17, 12:50 PM
One of my all-time favourites is Magneto from the X-Men comics. He's powerful enough to be a serious threat. He's evil, but leans towards neutral; he simply doesn't believe that coexistence between mutants and humans is possible and so is simply concerned with creating a homeland for mutants, humanity be damned.

I also like the Anakin Skywalker/Shuyin (FFX-2) archetype. Essentially a villain who has lost everything he ever loved and has been overcome with hate; even better is if the PC's are somehow able to watch him fall from hero to villain only to have to bring him down later. The old saying "the fiercest man is the one with nothing left to lose" pretty much defines this archetype. They are people who had everything taken from them and when forced to decide whether to forgive and rebuild or seek revenge, they took the latter. It's a very powerful archetype, because it's very easy to relate to.

Basically I'm a big fan of villains who have clear reasons for being evil rather than "good." If the PC's question who was really in the right at the end of the battle, then they've fought what I feel is the best kind of villain.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-17, 01:21 PM
I like to make a terrifying villain that the players really want to kill because he's personally made their lives a living hell. Not just "beats them on ocassion and leaves them there to rot", but "kills people important to them, takes away their favorite possessions, and takes sadistic glee in making their trek to stop him painful".

The easiest mechanism to make this work is to create at least one NPC that the players adore and have every party member equipped with some item that they really like. In one fell swoop, have the villain murder the likeable NPC (and prevent ressurection if possible), steal/destroy everyone's favorite item, then strand them in hostile territory. Where applicable, you may wish to also include a little villain-to-player torture or maybe even a PC death, provided the party can rez him later. If you manage all of this, your PC's will be looking forward to the day when they get to gut this crazy SOB.

Sage in the Playground
2007-03-17, 01:28 PM
I've seen a few villains like that. It's actually fairly common in manga and anime. The first and foremost one that comes to mind is Grineed from Beet the Vandel Buster.

That's who I thought about too.


Read a book by Terry Pratchett. Nick a villain from there. Carcer from Night Watch is awesome.

He combines "Teflon Guy" and "Evil Opposite".

The_Werebear
2007-03-17, 04:05 PM
I have to cast my Vote with Villains who think they are good guys. My fav from this category is (if you haven't read Watchmen and plan to, this ruins the end)
Ozymandias from the Watchmen. He personally kills dozens of people, sets up a pyramid scheme that causes the deaths of hundreds, killers killing killers who kill someone lower down the chain, ending with him personally poisoning his closest associates. Finally, he drops a psychic abomination into the center of New York, killing 3 million people outright. The thing is, that ends a nuclear showdown between the Soviet Union and the United States that would have killed far more. And in the end, the good guys can't kill him because if they do, all those people he killed died in vain because the world goes right back to nuclear standoff. Best of all, for most of the book, the good guys are going to him for advice and help.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-17, 05:05 PM
My favorite kind of villain is the evil mastermind that you don't ever realise is the villain until it's too late. Palpatine anyone?

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-17, 05:11 PM
My favorite kind of villain is the evil mastermind that you don't ever realise is the villain until it's too late. Palpatine anyone?
They only never noticed because they were all retarded.

Jerthanis
2007-03-17, 05:33 PM
They only never noticed because they were all retarded.

Quoted for truth.

My favorite type of villain is the sinister opposite. A person or group of people with similar aesthetics, abilities, motives and goals, but each aspect perverted just a little bit. Often these characters are much the same, but come from a very different background, bringing into question whether the heroes would be the villains if they had come from that background, or if they had made a different choice at one point in their backgrounds.

What comes to mind is the villains of the X TV series, who were fighting to protect the earth, against the protagonists who were fighting to protect humanity. With one binary choice the main character would have been on the other side of the conflict, and some of the villains you came to sympathize with just as much as the protagonists.

Raum
2007-03-17, 05:35 PM
The "best" villains are the ones who get under the players' skin. Preferably to the point they'd like to raise him solely for the purpose of killing him again.

So basically tailor the villain to the players...deceptive merchants, manipulative masterminds, crazed sadist, power hungry dictator, or whatever...pick the one who pushes their buttons.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-17, 05:43 PM
My personal favorites are all over the place--the "everything you could have been" villain is always cool. A good man could be a monster if things had just gone differently, or if your roles had been reversed...

As for -really- good villains, Darth Traya from Kotor. Oh, man.

Galathir
2007-03-17, 09:55 PM
I think sadistic masterminds are the scariest for the party. A powerful Beguiler can pass himself off as anyone he likes and that fact alone makes him a powerful opponent.

I also like villains who aren't what you expect, and either throw the party off guard or irrate them in some way. I don't what the party to just view the BBEG as just another monster to kill, but rather as a long term opponent that they have a personal vendetta against for whatever reason.

RationalGoblin
2007-03-17, 11:20 PM
Eisenheim from The Illusionist movie

Spoilers from the movie

While not a villain, per se, and the protaganist of this movie, Eisenheim is obviously not good aligned. Driving a person to sucide, even if they are trying to overthrow the empire, is unquestionably EVIL. Now, since the Crown Prince was going to plunge the empire into chaos and probrably cause the deaths of thousands of people, it was slightly (very slightly) to the Good side of the spectrum. Now, since he most likely ended up causing chaos anyways, I'd say he's Chaotic Neutral. Anyone agree with me? Also, in my opinion, Eisenheim is awesome.

Otherwise, I agree with everything else almost everyone said, with one exception.

I like my villains to have a bit of style, for example how complicated they kill someone when they actually DO kill someone.

Sephiroth
2007-05-06, 12:17 PM
the ones that fights then runs away telling them something ether they don't die or defanted or they never get me etc

YPU
2007-05-06, 01:25 PM
Doing things like having the PCs wake up every now and then with a bag of coin and a note on their beds saying "Your actions are meeting our expectations perfectly. Congratulations. Sincerely, The Illithid Council".

It doesn't matter what they do; these notes just keep appearing. :smallbiggrin:

I greatly thank you for this one, this will so be in my lost inspired game. “the others” like creature leaving those notes on the pc. On a greater note of this, have the BBEG leave the note on the back of a characters head which has been shaved, while they were sleeping… really gives you that horror feeling. I don’t remember who said it but the evil guy should really be evil, when the pc’s kill him in the end they it should feel like something very great, they should feel like they have avenged this and that people, brought justice and peace etz. It should be sombody the player will try to track down and kill even if they wont urn a lot of gold for it. So, try to learn what really upsets and freaks your players out.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-06, 01:34 PM
My favourites?

The Epically powerful badguy that has his reasons for who he is. Reasons the Players can't argue with.

And the weak physically, but politically powerful enemy the players can't touch.

puppyavenger
2007-05-06, 03:12 PM
My favorit is tthe two equel villans that both apear as good guys and whichever the PC's help they are still damming the worl.


And I think he's CN to Crazy fat goblin

EDIT an awakend puppy sorcerer is also nice.

Garatolla
2007-05-06, 07:13 PM
I don't mind what the villains particular MO is, as long as they are compelling to me. Morgan Sloat from The Talisman for instance, the kind of villain you love to hate just because they are so amoral and self orientated. By contrast, sometimes I like a villain that you just can't comprehend (pick anything, and a few people from H.P Lovecraft's works) because they are that abstract, you sit there thinking "what the hell is this weirdo going to do next?"

Moving to another contrast, sometimes getting so far into the villains mind that you want to get out (and desperately at that) is extremely compelling aswell. If you read The Screwtape Letters by C.S Lewis, you get this horrible insight into humanity as a whole, and what being evil (from a perspective of deceit and manipulation) is all about...

Okay, I really rambled, but to get back to my original point: the best villain to me is a compelling one; one that makes me take notice of them for more than their diabolical laugh and damsel they have tied to a train track

Hzurr
2007-05-07, 10:46 AM
Great villains need a certain element of suprise, something the PCs won't see coming.

Also, villains who aren't bad are a lot of fun. The bard who was just doing it for laughs, but didn't want to hurt anyone; the nice wizard who had a spell go awry (is that spelled right?); the giant who is overly strong but too stupid ro realize what he's doing is wrong; Ah, and the Paladin. Any day you can force a good party to fight a paladin is a good day.

Liliedhe
2007-05-07, 12:27 PM
My favourite villain - as in, the one I wanted to rip apart personally - was Irenicus in BGII. Not because he tortured my PC, because he stole her soul and made her kill a friend, but because he turned her into a monster and she killed her lover because of this. That was the nastiest, most cruel thing I ever experienced in an RPG - computer or otherwise.

The 'best' villain I ever used as a DM was a medieval princess in an very epic campaign that involved planar travel - she was ruthless, cunning, charismatic. She wasn't physically powerful and she had no magic. Just an iron will to gain her way, the ability to smile in your face and lie with you, then cut your throat. She tortured one PC almost to death, made them watch the execution of a friendly NPC, opposed them everywhere they went and they never could lay hands on her. In the end, the PCs really hated her... but they still saved her from execution, because she was a woman and pretty. But that's PCs for you...

Deepblue706
2007-05-08, 06:09 PM
The best villain ever most certainly is a clown. The second is an octopus.

Yeah, try to guess who I'm talking about.

So...I suppose I like ridiculous, flashy villains who cause lotsa ruckus and leave a lot of memorable one-liners.

But, when DMing, I like to make very cunning, and deceptive villains. They're always really creepy, too, as I enjoy nothing more in D&D than actually making my PCs afraid of what will happen next. It encourages them to think more, which then allows me to lead them down very winding paths of deceit. If I were to put the basic ideas behind my techniques into words here, most people would think me a horrible person. But, I always deliver satisfaction to my players, who learn the fun of surviving in my games (note: I actually hold back on PC killing, etc - I just make them think otherwise).

EagleWiz
2007-05-08, 06:46 PM
The best villan I made? Well the one that REALY makes my players angry would have to be this "Somewhat not-quite-right balor." (Its realy orcus in disguise) He has: Had powerfull minions attack and almost cause a TPK three times, almost half of thier missions were them being minuplated by him, he tortured and killed one PC who was never resed. Etc. Etc. Etc. And when they finaly defeat him in combat....... it turns out that they CANT because they need his help to save the world. (So what if he's a demon, he wants to rule the world not have it destroyed)


As for -really- good villains, Darth Traya from Kotor. Oh, man.

QFT

Dark_Wind
2007-05-08, 07:08 PM
The best villain ever most certainly is a clown. The second is an octopus.

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!

The best villians, though... The best villians are brilliant, manipulative bastards who, above all, have believable motives. Misanthropy can only take you so far,

Stevenson
2007-05-08, 07:14 PM
For the scariest villains, I'd say people like the Cardinal, a la Three Musketeers. High in the government, not the highest, though actually the mastermind, and what's worse-a man of God.

And, ah, Darth Traya, yes....

However, players tend to get paranoid if an NPC sticks around for too long.

EagleWiz
2007-05-09, 08:06 AM
Just "DMPC" and THEN reveal it is a villian. heh heh heh heh heh.

Nahal
2007-05-09, 10:20 AM
The one that walks into the tavern, hands one of the PC's a kitten with the words "Keep him out of harm's way," walks out, and proceeds to obliterate half the town for kicks.
Just re-read this. Pure. Genius.

Having just finished running through KotoR 2, I'm going to agree with the Darth Traya fandom.

In the vein of the Illithid Council idea, why not take it one step further? Make sure it's always on one specific PC's bed each time. Perhaps include additional requests, then give good additional reasons to go along with them (e.g. letter says wipe out nearby orc camp x, shortly afterward PC's are asked by the townsfolk threatened by orc camp x to take it out as well.)

Raven T.
2007-05-09, 09:17 PM
What makes a good villain...

I enjoy the quiet manipulators. The kind of villain that gets the PC to do their dirty work for them, then swoop in and seize the reward. I also prefer LE villains over just "I'm out to destroy the world because I CAN!" Cold, calculating, and logical. Don't destroy the farmers because you're "evil" if you can subjugate them to supply your forces.

Fishy
2007-05-09, 09:49 PM
Two completely unrelated points.

1) In order for it to be a Villain and not an 'encounter', the villain needs to have some method for living past the first 5 minutes of meeting the PCs. Contingency: Teleport, Lichdom, and DR Yes/Plot are the traditional ones, but you can make a villain interesting by giving them an interesting defense mechanism. Fun things to try are political power, legal immunity, mutant healing factor, membership in a hive mind, etc, etc.

2) Lots of people are mentioning motivations: It's possible to make your villain stand out by giving them an interesting reason for what they do. However, I disagree with Rich and the majority view here: there are many spectacular villains that don't have motivations, or motivations that make no sense. I'm thinking about Kefka, the Joker, the Xenomorph from Alien, or any of the Lovecraftian Horrors. These are guys who cannot be reasoned with, cannot be predicted or controlled- these are scary, scary people, and the only way to respond to them is to lay the smackdown on them. I think the villain-as-pathos has its place, the distorted mirror of the heroes is kind of cool, but honestly, sometimes you need EEEEVIL.

With that in mind, my pick for best villain is Prince Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time. He starts off as the ruler of an oppressed people- sensible motivations, all sorts of diplomatic immunity and political operating going on- and then later reveals himself as a flaming pig-demon-thing who wants to destroy the universe. Alright.

EagleWiz
2007-05-10, 01:11 PM
The best villans: The Malevelant, TPKing, Rocks Fall Everyone Dies, You have to fight the great wyrm gold dragon because i say so DM.

Saph
2007-05-10, 01:28 PM
2) Lots of people are mentioning motivations: It's possible to make your villain stand out by giving them an interesting reason for what they do. However, I disagree with Rich and the majority view here: there are many spectacular villains that don't have motivations, or motivations that make no sense. I'm thinking about Kefka, the Joker, the Xenomorph from Alien, or any of the Lovecraftian Horrors. These are guys who cannot be reasoned with, cannot be predicted or controlled- these are scary, scary people, and the only way to respond to them is to lay the smackdown on them. I think the villain-as-pathos has its place, the distorted mirror of the heroes is kind of cool, but honestly, sometimes you need EEEEVIL.

I vote for this one, too.

If a villain is horrific enough and destructive enough and scary enough, the PCs aren't going to care about his motivations or trying to psychoanalyse him. They're going to be running for their lives or fighting desperately. That can work just as well or better than a carefully motivated villain.

Some of the best villains are also flat out incomprehensible. You can't understand them and there's no point trying. The Xenomorphs from the Alien series are a good example. They don't want to talk to you, they want to use you to reproduce and kill you in the process.

- Saph

Duke Malagigi
2007-05-10, 03:12 PM
I have to cast my Vote with Villains who think they are good guys. My fav from this category is (if you haven't read Watchmen and plan to, this ruins the end)
Ozymandias from the Watchmen. He personally kills dozens of people, sets up a pyramid scheme that causes the deaths of hundreds, killers killing killers who kill someone lower down the chain, ending with him personally poisoning his closest associates. Finally, he drops a psychic abomination into the center of New York, killing 3 million people outright. The thing is, that ends a nuclear showdown between the Soviet Union and the United States that would have killed far more. And in the end, the good guys can't kill him because if they do, all those people he killed died in vain because the world goes right back to nuclear standoff. Best of all, for most of the book, the good guys are going to him for advice and help.

Also my favorite villain type as well. Of course I'd apply this to almost all if not all of my villains, including fiends, dark gods, mad cultists and blackguards. Besides, as House says, "Everyone does what they think is right." Just because you think something is the morally right thing to do, doesn't mean it really is. Good and Evil are objective all right, just that the bad guys won't believe that they actually are evil.

Gungnir
2007-05-10, 07:21 PM
I think the best kind of villain is something like Zykon. Personally powerful, commands a giant army, and always has that backup plan that makes the protagonists go "DAMNIT!"

Aethir
2007-05-10, 10:24 PM
My favorite is the redeemed villain that, via the characters own discrimination, turns back into a villain.

Vulgosh
2007-05-15, 12:45 PM
Definetly the mastermind for like Jon Irenicus.

dr.cello
2007-05-15, 01:19 PM
My personal favorite villains are the ones that have a reason to dislike the PCs specifically. Or one of the PCs. I like to create a villain for each one of my PCs when I'm DMing (and when I'm a PC I like DMs to do the same). With a lot of my characters, opposing the villain never seems to be a very compelling drive--but if the villain actually has some vendetta against me, I'm more likely to go after him. Or if I don't like him for some reason--maybe he stole my romantic interest in school? Caused my mother's financial ruin, declining health, and untimely demise, and with her dying breath she told me to avenge her?

A competing party of adventurers is always good, as was previously suggested, but it can get even better. One of my favourite villains comes from a Star Wars campaign I was once a part of. The DM had originally intended for us to encounter a Bothan who was about to steal the object we'd originally come for. We arrived just in time to see him about to escape onto his ship (the DM was keeping track of time, and we were slow). He ruled that we each had time to get one shot off, and he was at a huge distance so basically we had to roll a natural 20 to even hit him. I managed to roll a critical hit, and killed him messily. The character who ended up being a recurring villain after my lucky shot was his brother--who naturally wanted to kill me in nasty ways.

Villains who develop personal vendettas through roleplaying are very fun. Or, in a pinch, figures from a character's background. I prefer them to be more specific than "They are going to destroy the world!" villains, anyway.

thehothead
2007-05-15, 02:42 PM
The best villain is one that has the same exact goal as the heroes (assuming they're a good party) but is attempting to do it in an extremely immoral way.
It's a moral dilemma they will NOT be prepared for.