the PHB is not racist

[CyberThread]

I mean I think it is a disgrace that Wizard of the coast thinks this is okay, in this day an age of acceptance.


Tieflings in poses and clothing that makes them look like criminals

Gnomes with hobo lutes

Elfs looking so majestic with magic and niceness

While the halfling is a chubby lil go lucky useless tool.


I hate to say this, but everyone but the humans looks like a stereotype, I think WOTC is racist.

As per section 4 paragraph 82, on the sub system, it seems this was taken seriously.

[Zeuel]

It's obvious that the racists at WotC need to do their part to end systemic oppression by checking their human privilege. /tumblr

[Vitruviansquid]

But Tieflings *are* criminals.

[Angelalex242]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_D3VFfhvs4

No, Tieflings are SMOOTH Criminals. :P

[Lord Raziere]

Oh you want to talk about racism in DnD huh?

well I don't like this thread for two reasons:

1. it ignores the real racism at work in DnD which says that goblins and orcs are always evil and what not and so forth, can be killed without any moral compunctions, effectively promoting genocide in my eyes. which is far worse. (and yes I know Siuis, they're actually evil in the shape of people blah blah blah, I don't care)

2. this is like calling out DnD for representing dwarves as underground warrior-type people with axes, when this is an accurate representation of dwarves, and what people have always thought of as dwarves. your not going to represent them accurately in picture as peaceful hippies in the sky.

meaning, as a person who dislike the racist tones of DnD and its alignment system, I do not like this thread because its missing the mark entirely and focusing on stupid meaningless image stuff that isn't actually racist, the concerns raised are petty compared to the real issue here.

that and the entire point of race descriptions is to establish the baselines and archetypes they work upon, its not proscriptive its descriptive, and half the point is figure out in what ways your character deviates from the norm. so all in all, this thread is pointless and you should feel bad.

[HorridElemental]

I read the OP and felt the need to bash my head into a wall, way to look at the surface of an issue and totally miss the real problem.

Lord R says it best.

[pwykersotz]

Oh you want to talk about racism in DnD huh?

well I don't like this thread for two reasons:

1. it ignores the real racism at work in DnD which says that goblins and orcs are always evil and what not and so forth, can be killed without any moral compunctions, effectively promoting genocide in my eyes. which is far worse. (and yes I know Siuis, they're actually evil in the shape of people blah blah blah, I don't care)

2. this is like calling out DnD for representing dwarves as underground warrior-type people with axes, when this is an accurate representation of dwarves, and what people have always thought of as dwarves. your not going to represent them accurately in picture as peaceful hippies in the sky.

meaning, as a person who dislike the racist tones of DnD and its alignment system, I do not like this thread because its missing the mark entirely and focusing on stupid meaningless image stuff that isn't actually racist, the concerns raised are petty compared to the real issue here.

that and the entire point of race descriptions is to establish the baselines and archetypes they work upon, its not proscriptive its descriptive, and half the point is figure out in what ways your character deviates from the norm. so all in all, this thread is pointless and you should feel bad.

Nice troll, CyberThread.

I read an article once by the designers of D&D that I've taken to heart. It was on world design, and they said that (paraphrased) "World building isn't about building a balanced, stable, idyllic society with all your i's dotted and t's crossed. It's about stacking as many boxes of dynamite on top of each other as you can and letting the GM set the players loose."

I think of that when I consider these racial "troubles". Perhaps this is just one of those boxes of dynamite that needs exploding.

On the other hand, remember, you can't create a useful game if you don't define certain elements.

[Pex]

Some people just aren't happy until they have something to be outraged about.

[CyberThread]

I feel like I have won, yet no one has declared a competition.


I feel proud that folks think this is a troll, and ashamed that am not know well enough yet on the 5e side of the forum for being a joker.

[Stubbazubba]

This is manifestly and evidently a joke, a parody of the real "D&D is racist" threads. If that went over your head, step away from the keyboard, go out and do something else with your life for an hour or two (like, I dunno, play D&D maybe), and come back.

[Zanos]

Some people just aren't happy until they have something to be outraged about.
Is quoting yourself wrong?

The professionally offended will always find something to be angry about.

[CyberThread]

"Nothing is wrong, when quoting oneself" ~ CyberThread

[AuraTwilight]

Oh you want to talk about racism in DnD huh?

well I don't like this thread for two reasons:

1. it ignores the real racism at work in DnD which says that goblins and orcs are always evil and what not and so forth, can be killed without any moral compunctions, effectively promoting genocide in my eyes. which is far worse. (and yes I know Siuis, they're actually evil in the shape of people blah blah blah, I don't care)

2. this is like calling out DnD for representing dwarves as underground warrior-type people with axes, when this is an accurate representation of dwarves, and what people have always thought of as dwarves. your not going to represent them accurately in picture as peaceful hippies in the sky.

meaning, as a person who dislike the racist tones of DnD and its alignment system, I do not like this thread because its missing the mark entirely and focusing on stupid meaningless image stuff that isn't actually racist, the concerns raised are petty compared to the real issue here.

that and the entire point of race descriptions is to establish the baselines and archetypes they work upon, its not proscriptive its descriptive, and half the point is figure out in what ways your character deviates from the norm. so all in all, this thread is pointless and you should feel bad.

I stopped reading when I read "real racism in D&D." There is no real racism, all the non-human races are imaginary non-people.

Also, it's hard to consider anything in the post-2E era racist when original D&D had non-human races as (strictly-inferior to play) classes.

[Lord Raziere]

I stopped reading when I read "real racism in D&D." There is no real racism, all the non-human races are imaginary non-people.

Also, it's hard to consider anything in the post-2E era racist when original D&D had non-human races as (strictly-inferior to play) classes.

that is still a lesser problem than how the alignment system encourages genocide and encourages the thought of thinking of certain beings- beings that are very human-like- as things to be killed for no reason, glamorizes it even, which even if they're non-human imaginary people, I still can't bear the thought of it, it matters not whether they are real, because in character they are real. and I can't play a moral character that would go along with genocide just because, or automatically think and accept all orcs or whatever are evil and should die. it doesn't matter in the real world yes, but it does matter in the fantasy world.

World of Warcraft doesn't ignore this question- it acknowledges that such races deserve their own spotlight, heroes and that they are their own thinking beings rather than being relegated to be more fodder to be killed. it even still has lots of beings of pure evil and mooks and some such despite giving both Alliance and the Horde a fair shake. too bad its MMO is bad and its RPG is also bad, but what you gonna do?

[SiuiS]

Oh you want to talk about racism in DnD huh?

well I don't like this thread for two reasons:

1. it ignores the real racism at work in DnD which says that goblins and orcs are always evil and what not and so forth, can be killed without any moral compunctions, effectively promoting genocide in my eyes. which is far worse. (and yes I know Siuis, they're actually evil in the shape of people blah blah blah, I don't care)

Ha!


2. this is like calling out DnD for representing dwarves as underground warrior-type people with axes, when this is an accurate representation of dwarves, and what people have always thought of as dwarves. your not going to represent them accurately in picture as peaceful hippies in the sky.

This undermines quote 1. You're just saying it's okay to stereotype people i certain ways, not others.

{The answer to that is "they are not morally equal; there is a difference between dehumanizing something to make killing it not murder, and type-casting something to give a basis to work from"}


I feel like I have won, yet no one has declared a competition.


I feel proud that folks think this is a troll, and ashamed that am not know well enough yet on the 5e side of the forum for being a joker.

Making a joke thread is making a troll attempt, though. Hell, I can quote the Giant right now, as saying that starting a thread with a position you don't actually hold as being the definition of trolling.

You should have blue'd your texts.


that is still a lesser problem than how the alignment system encourages genocide and encourages the thought of thinking of certain beings- beings that are very human-like- as things to be killed for no reason, glamorizes it even, which even if they're non-human imaginary people, I still can't bear the thought of it, it matters not whether they are real, because in character they are real. and I can't play a moral character that would go along with genocide just because, or automatically think and accept all orcs or whatever are evil and should die. it doesn't matter in the real world yes, but it does matter in the fantasy world.


Alignment is just being mis-used. Alignment is selling your soul to a supernatural army with a vendetta. You want to not be beholden to the rules laid out by gods with agendas? Be neutral/unaligned. Don't pick a side in a war and then complain that wartime attrocities happen - you chose to participate.

[Angelalex242]

Hey, as long as we're making those atrocities happen to evil, even the most righteous Paladin is a ok with it.

Screw racism, I'm alignmentist! Prejudiced against evil! :P

[Zrak]

Just as a point of order, orcs are "often chaotic evil" and goblins are "usually neutral evil." So it doesn't say that they're "always evil," as you claim.

[Lord Raziere]

This undermines quote 1. You're just saying it's okay to stereotype people i certain ways, not others.

{The answer to that is "they are not morally equal; there is a difference between dehumanizing something to make killing it not murder, and type-casting something to give a basis to work from"}


Alignment is just being mis-used. Alignment is selling your soul to a supernatural army with a vendetta. You want to not be beholden to the rules laid out by gods with agendas? Be neutral/unaligned. Don't pick a side in a war and then complain that wartime attrocities happen - you chose to participate.

*eyeroll* they are not morally equal; there is a difference between dehumanizing something to make killing it not murder, and type-casting something to give a basis to work from

so the view your trying to sell me on is that alignment is not actually moral at all, and is just some cosmic energy thing? problem with that: what happens if I am neutral, but I try to be what I think is a moral person? regardless of what the Good Energy says?

[Zrak]

Also, nowhere in the rules does it say "killing an evil creature is never an evil act." There's really nothing in the system itself that supports the notion that you can go around killing any humanoid for "no reason" with moral impunity.

[AuraTwilight]

that is still a lesser problem than how the alignment system encourages genocide and encourages the thought of thinking of certain beings- beings that are very human-like- as things to be killed for no reason, glamorizes it even, which even if they're non-human imaginary people, I still can't bear the thought of it, it matters not whether they are real, because in character they are real. and I can't play a moral character that would go along with genocide just because, or automatically think and accept all orcs or whatever are evil and should die. it doesn't matter in the real world yes, but it does matter in the fantasy world.

Nowhere does it say "Orcs are always evil without exception and murdering them is always morally justifiable, no matter what." Hell, murdering evil creatures isn't even a Good action in most editions, it's usually a justified neutral action at best.

[Lord Raziere]

Just as a point of order, orcs are "often chaotic evil" and goblins are "usually neutral evil." So it doesn't say that they're "always evil," as you claim.

In 3.5 yes. This is fifth edition, have you seen the basic DM rules pdf? Goblin: Neutral Evil. no "usually" there. Orc? chaotic evil. and since this is 5e forum, its the only edition that matters here.


Also, nowhere in the rules does it say "killing an evil creature is never an evil act." There's really nothing in the system itself that supports the notion that you can go around killing any humanoid for "no reason" with moral impunity.

True in 5e. the "the evil gods did it" justification of "evil urges" is used. so technically your right on the first point as well regarding 5e. this however suggests something different. if this evil is a built in design mechanism, why then has no one attempted to remove said mechanism? such a built in mechanism suggests instead that they are slaves instead. and slaves are to be freed, not killed. thus they are not really evil, they are made so that they are under evils influence and takes it orders, but can be freed if your figure out how.

[SiuiS]

Hey, as long as we're making those atrocities happen to evil, even the most righteous Paladin is a ok with it.

Screw racism, I'm alignmentist! Prejudiced against evil! :P

Dulce et decorum est pro patria deity, citizen. *salutes*


*eyeroll*

You misunderstand. I believe there is value in discussion which looks at all sides of an issue, but I don't want to argue with you. I added in that line to show that there is a clear answer and I wasn't challenging you on any grounds. I just require that people understand the ideas before agreeing with them.



so the view your trying to sell me on is that alignment is not actually moral at all, and is just some cosmic energy thing? problem with that: what happens if I am neutral, but I try to be what I think is a moral person? regardless of what the Good Energy says?

A complex question. That's usually where law/chaos come in. In older sets, you didn't have a "I'm a good person" alignment, alignment came from excess. And it didn't always agree with itself, either; the drow exist still because while some Good types wanted to end all evil forever, some good types recoiled in horror at genocide and rebuked their peers. Both sides need to exist in dynamic tension to give [Good] the power to actually be good.

Further complicated by later edition [Good] is an objective cosmic force stuff. If you're trying to be a good person but not engaging in the aligned war, you're neutral and people really like you, unless you are a spiritual being. Then you don't have a choice.



True in 5e. the "the evil gods did it" justification of "evil urges" is used. so technically your right on the first point as well regarding 5e. this however suggests something different. if this evil is a built in design mechanism, why then has no one attempted to remove said mechanism? such a built in mechanism suggests instead that they are slaves instead. and slaves are to be freed, not killed. thus they are not really evil, they are made so that they are under evils influence and takes it orders, but can be freed if your figure out how.

Interesting.

Yes, if slaves, they are to be freed. But are they slaves? Maybe they are less intelligences and more virtual intellgences; high powered processors that are basically very complex recorders. They learn young and then regurgitate what they are conditioned to early on? I have a comic idea about that actually.

Maybe that should be the starting adventure you run? Instead of "in my world, orcs are people", start your group off and lead them to free orcs from the tyranny of Always Evil, establishing in their minds directly that orcs are now people.

[Lord Raziere]

Interesting.

Yes, if slaves, they are to be freed. But are they slaves? Maybe they are less intelligences and more virtual intellgences; high powered processors that are basically very complex recorders. They learn young and then regurgitate what they are conditioned to early on? I have a comic idea about that actually.

Maybe that should be the starting adventure you run? Instead of "in my world, orcs are people", start your group off and lead them to free orcs from the tyranny of Always Evil, establishing in their minds directly that orcs are now people.

yes, thats a good campaign idea, but I'm mostly arguing for it because I want to play such races. but then again they made Tieflings a core race, so I guess half-stuff is the closest I'll get with that.

[Raendyn]

For some reason I feel like that as this thread grows and people argue with each other, OP CyberThread is rubbing his hands with excitment :P

Wait, did I tell this correctly? :P

[AuraTwilight]

Or maybe Orcs were never intended as evil, and everyone is putting too much stock in the statblock of the generic standard orc who will want to punch and smash the PCs, who will be Evil by virtue of WOTC assuming the typical player party to be Good?

[Seppo87]

So, there is this PHB race, they look similar to humans but are generally taller, with stronger builds, and a different skin tone. Prominent chin, low forhead, larger nose.
They are often believed to be better at physical activities, but less smart.
Since they can't really hide their heritage, in many places they are looked at with suspicion and a certain degree of hostility. Society struggles to fully accept them.
They are, in fact, believed to be much more inclined to commit crime, compared to the average individual.

Who am I talking about now

[Falka]

*eyeroll* they are not morally equal; there is a difference between dehumanizing something to make killing it not murder, and type-casting something to give a basis to work from

so the view your trying to sell me on is that alignment is not actually moral at all, and is just some cosmic energy thing? problem with that: what happens if I am neutral, but I try to be what I think is a moral person? regardless of what the Good Energy says?

You fail to acknowledge that in RL, there is no "intrinsically evil" races or civilizations, while in DnD there usually are. This is fantasy and you should appreciate it from this perspective. Or at least from a quasi-Middle age perspective where people had rights depending on which tribe they belonged to.

Heck, even in Ancient Greece, people made distinctions between citizens (true people), foreigners (non-people) and slaves (property).

And obviously, OP trolled hard.

[rlc]

obviously, the only answer is to nuke the entire forgotten realms.
or does that make me racist against realmsians?

[Lord Raziere]

You fail to acknowledge that in RL, there is no "intrinsically evil" races or civilizations, while in DnD there usually are. This is fantasy and you should appreciate it from this perspective. Or at least from a quasi-Middle age perspective where people had rights depending on which tribe they belonged to.

Heck, even in Ancient Greece, people made distinctions between citizens (true people), foreigners (non-people) and slaves (property).

And obviously, OP trolled hard.

Exactly. That is at least one thing real life does better. If this is fantasy, it should be MORE ideal, not less, a universe where entire races of people need to be wiped out is far from my ideal.

and oh, old age perspectives, so I should accept what you say, because long ago a bunch of Greek jerks who had no idea what they were talking about, decided "hey we're REAL people, screw everyone else! including slaves." Logic! I don't see any in this.

@ Seppo: ladies and gentlemen, I give you.....Exhibit A of what I'm talking about.

[Falka]

Exactly. That is at least one thing real life does better. If this is fantasy, it should be MORE ideal, not less, a universe where entire races of people need to be wiped out is far from my ideal.

and oh, old age perspectives, so I should accept what you say, because long ago a bunch of Greek jerks who had no idea what they were talking about, decided "hey we're REAL people, screw everyone else! including slaves." Logic! I don't see any in this.

@ Seppo: ladies and gentlemen, I give you.....Exhibit A of what I'm talking about.

What I'm trying to say is that your logic of applying human rights in a world that does not have strong formal governments, nor civil movement rights that have enabled a series of legal bodies to protect rights of citizens, is flawed.

Greeks weren't stupid barbarians. They lived in small cities (polis) where people that couldn't pay their debts and captives from wars were brought into slavery. Old societies tended to take care of their tribes first, then the others if there was a benefit out of it. It was easy to see foreigners as something that weren't "people", since it's easy to objectify anyone that isn't closely related to you by friendship or blood ties.

And we're talking about a dangerous world, where there is no police, no courts that took in consideration civil constitutions, anything. Actually, Medieval periods in history were based on the rule of the strongest (the lord) and everybody pledged alliegance to him as long as he protected their lives with his army. You can't possibly argue with that deal if you're keeping the short end of the straw - what other choice do you have - ?

Anyways, I just went on a tangent here. We were discussing racism, yes?

Look, racism still exists in modern times. People fear others that don't belong to their tribe. If you build an imaginary world where you get personifications of everything you fear (evil gods) and races that were intrinsically created to serve these gods (and lack as much free will as other races - this is how it is recorded in D&D), how can you blame people for being racist with an orc when the 99% are Chaotic Evil? If you make a snowflake character that is a good aligned orc, you will need to spend all your life proving to the societies that despise you that you are different. That is difficult yes, but you chose to pay the role of the outcast (it's not like you can't play a Human, right?) Going against the crowd has consequences - it's just that maybe for you, it's uncomfortable to face them -

I understand where are you coming from, since I've been for a long time, a snowflake player yourself (my case, Drow and Tiefling). The problem of these snowflake outcasts is that you reduce the whole concept of your character in your struggle, and the character itself becomes pointless if you try to force people into accepting you to normality (as in, pretending that people shouldn't despise you for being a tiefling or a Drow without saving the kingdom first, and expecting for outsiders or strangers to acknowledge you as a normality). What makes people heroes is not the amount of applauses and pats on the shoulder they get, but how they keep moving and doing what is right, what is needed to do regardless of what the crowd says.

And when you play an antihero, racism becomes an incentive to keep following your path. At least, when you come to terms with the concept. :p

[obryn]

http://i.imgur.com/bc9jsGU.jpg

[Kaiser Omnik]

Sometimes I wonder if people read the same Order of the Stick as I do... Gosh, at least read some of the Giants' comments on the matter!

[Lord Raziere]

What I'm trying to say is that your logic of applying human rights in a world that does not have strong formal governments, nor civil movement rights that have enabled a series of legal bodies to protect rights of citizens, is flawed.

Greeks weren't stupid barbarians. They lived in small cities (polis) where people that couldn't pay their debts and captives from wars were brought into slavery. Old societies tended to take care of their tribes first, then the others if there was a benefit out of it. It was easy to see foreigners as something that weren't "people", since it's easy to objectify anyone that isn't closely related to you by friendship or blood ties.

And we're talking about a dangerous world, where there is no police, no courts that took in consideration civil constitutions, anything. Actually, Medieval periods in history were based on the rule of the strongest (the lord) and everybody pledged alliegance to him as long as he protected their lives with his army. You can't possibly argue with that deal if you're keeping the short end of the straw - what other choice do you have - ?

Anyways, I just went on a tangent here. We were discussing racism, yes?

Look, racism still exists in modern times. People fear others that don't belong to their tribe. If you build an imaginary world where you get personifications of everything you fear (evil gods) and races that were intrinsically created to serve these gods (and lack as much free will as other races - this is how it is recorded in D&D), how can you blame people for being racist with an orc when the 99% are Chaotic Evil? If you make a snowflake character that is a good aligned orc, you will need to spend all your life proving to the societies that despise you that you are different. That is difficult yes, but you chose to pay the role of the outcast (it's not like you can't play a Human, right?) Going against the crowd has consequences - it's just that maybe for you, it's uncomfortable to face them -

I understand where are you coming from, since I've been for a long time, a snowflake player yourself (my case, Drow and Tiefling). The problem of these snowflake outcasts is that you reduce the whole concept of your character in your struggle, and the character itself becomes pointless if you try to force people into accepting you to normality (as in, pretending that people shouldn't despise you for being a tiefling or a Drow without saving the kingdom first, and expecting for outsiders or strangers to acknowledge you as a normality). What makes people heroes is not the amount of applauses and pats on the shoulder they get, but how they keep moving and doing what is right, what is needed to do regardless of what the crowd says.

And when you play an antihero, racism becomes an incentive to keep following your path. At least, when you come to terms with the concept. :p

oh hi, long lecture treating me as if I'm an ignorant tool about this sort of thing, then calling me a snowflake player, then trying to make me come around to your viewpoint just because we share a common interest that has nothing to do with the argument. Cute.

1. And? if you can have your fantasy of killing other people just because they have green skin, I can have my fantasy of a pre-modern society that doesn't follow pre-modern morality. they're equally unrealistic. don't try to pretend your brand of unrealistic fantasy is any better than mine. or somehow more valid. I'm a PC, I'll apply as many human rights as you won't.

2. And? you just listed a bunch of horrible things about old societies. Sounds like some Lawful Evil needing a nice cold overthrowin' to me. Viva La Revolution.

3. Good! Easier to overthrow. First target: Taldor. it has it coming.

4. Yes and? I can't have a fantasy about something other than the same old racist nonsense? and human? eh. playing a human is boring. I already play a human by being me, and I'm pretty sure I lead a boring life, why be redundant? also I notice that most of the "accepted" races are pretty much the pretty ones, via classic good = beauty stupidity. I dislike such inaccuracies. as for the snowflake, I'm not looking fer snowflakes, I want more variety than just the same human near-human stuff, if its only in getting a wider range of near-humans. we have fantasy here, why is our fantasy so narrow as to only contain like, a few races that are all humans of varying height, hair and ear shape? makes no sense. we have an infinite tapestry and what do we spend it on? the same old stuff.

5. look if I want to play an exile, I don't need a freaking race for it. I've made a normal Elf Oracle...who was so bedraggled and tattered and whatnot and such because he made a deal with the Mystery of Time, that people mistook him for a zombie and chased him out of villages sometimes in his backstory and constantly told prophecies to people and was thought a madman because of it. I've made a Wilder who without a special helmet, would unleash a psionic storm around him up to a square mile, and therefore felt cursed by his power because he would have to forever wear it, and all his psionic powers are just him unleashing small bits of that storm contained in his head, with a constant fear of losing his helm and unleashing the storm again. you don't need a race to play a snowflake. why, I bet you I can make a snowflake out of an ordinary human fighter, just give me time...any race can be an exile, in fact in some ways its what adventuring parties are made of entirely: exiles. outcasts. people who don't fit into society. the eccentric, the strange- yet all of them, effective.

6. No, I have already come to terms with it. I have came to terms with it, by concluding that I'm not a racist, and that I do not support things that clearly support racism. like a black and white morality that can too easily lead to genocide if your not careful, or old societies that make only having racism look weak in comparison.

[obryn]

http://i.imgur.com/OAYsXkP.png

[Lord Raziere]

@ Both of Obryn's Pictures:
Are they supposed to be the PC's or the Monsters?

@ Obryn:
Psssst, Obryn, we have things called words. you should use them. to communicate. I mean I know pictures are worth a thousand of them, but I don't really know which thousand are being said by those pictures there, capiche?

[obryn]

@ Both of Obryn's Pictures:
Are they supposed to be the PC's or the Monsters?

@ Obryn:
Psssst, Obryn, we have things called words. you should use them. to communicate. I mean I know pictures are worth a thousand of them, but I don't really know which thousand are being said by those pictures there, capiche?
This is me making random entries into the joke thread this started as. They are an ink blot test.

[Slipperychicken]

@ Both of Obryn's Pictures:
Are they supposed to be the PC's or the Monsters?


Why not both? It might be material for groups to run Evil campaigns. A number of homebrew evil campaigns I've seen floated on this forum feature the PCs as cultists or drow.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review.