Improving the DMG's Arcane Archer

[paperarmor]

Aside from from forcing it to advance spellcasting how would one go about improving the arcane archer?

[maniacalmojo]

I would add the ability to shoot touch spells through your bow as a start. All arrows are considered magic for the purpose of bypassing damage resistance.

[jedipotter]

Well, things like:


Instead of increasing his arrow's enhancement bonus, an arcane archer may instead add enchantments of equal cost to his arrows.


And Imbue Arrow needs to have more uses. Maybe an option to do like 2d6 per spell level of damage.

[holywhippet]

Would you really give that class full casting advancement though? It already gets full BAB progression so adding full casting might be a bit overpowering (some PrCs do though, Sacred fist technically has both although you can't use any weapons or armour).

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Doesn't necessarily have to be full progression. Depending on the rest of the class features, something like 6/10 like the Swiftblade could be good enough.

[Arkhaic]

...nothing in 3.5 should have full advancement casting if you can qualify for it solely through levels in a casting class.


Edit: And yeah, a ranged version of Arcane Strike would be good, Jedipotter.

[Zancloufer]

In the case of actual class features, a few things that SHOULD be done IMHO:

Imbue Arrow: I would personally change this to something akin to making spell storing arrows, but give them a limited duration, like one day per class level and only usable by Arcane Archers. Though it might get a bit silly if someone can store a decent number up and then Manyshot/Rapidshot a full round attack with a pile of Fireballs or something, but it's not much worse than casters making scrolls.

Seeker/Phase/Hail of Arrows: Make them all usable x times per encounter instead of day. Maybe even increase it to 2-3 times an encounter.

Arrow of Death: DC should be changed to 10+1/2 HD/level + spellcasting mod or something akin to that with scaling.

Also something like 1/2 spellcasting progression couldn't hurt. There, made the entire class much more versatile AND powerful without really changing the base fluff. Still a Archer Gish that can buff their own arrows

[Troacctid]

The Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer) has 7/10 spellcasting, d10 hit die, and adds flaming/shock/frost qualities to the enhanced arrows instead of more +1 bonuses.

[Snowbluff]

The PF version is pretty bad in PF. The casting time of the Imbued Arrows is the casting time of the spell.

IN 3.5 it's always standard, so it's actually pretty good for a few spells, like Glyph of Warding and Fimbulwinter.

IMO, Arcane archer is fine for a 2 level dip in either system, but I like it better in 3.5.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, Seeker Arrow, Phase Arrow & co. could be usable at will without affecting anything. Hell, make it at will swift action to make your next arrow either-or and they might actually be worth your while to use every now and then, and somewhat synergistic with the whole ability. As it stands they might as well not exist. Also, Arrow of Death save DC needs to obviously scale by a stat (casting stat or attack stat, your pick) and they shouldn't be quite that sparse. Some restrictions are nice, sure, but it'd be cool to fire a volley of death arrows every now and then.

And yeah, the class is built for casting so at least 7/10 and probably 8/10 (9/10 with the abilities it currently has is more than fair tho). Imbue Arrow is useless without casting so if single-classing Arcane Archer were to ever be viable, the class needs fairly strong casting progression. And yeah, writing Enhance Arrow like in PF is better; the present version is useless in conjunction with Greater Magic Weapon.

[holywhippet]

I should point out that the arcane archer is potentially an over powered PrC regardless of whether you are approaching it as a caster or an archer. For a caster, as someone has already pointed out, it reduces the casting time of any area spell you are loading into an arrow to a standard action regardless of the regular casting time of the spell. That lets you drop area spells in combat which simply aren't meant to be cast on demand like that.

From the archer point of view, your bow effectively has an enhancement bonus of half your AA level rounded up. That means you don't need to waste enchantment "slots" on making your arrows more likely to hit and can focus on making them do damage. You just need a +1 enhancement on your bow and you can add whatever else you want. Even better, since arrow enchantments can still work with bow enchantments you can have a whole lot of damage potential loaded onto every single arrow.

[Fax Celestis]

I would want it to have an Arcane Channeling-like ability.

[Jeff the Green]

Personally, I'd shrink it to a 5-level PrC. Its thing is no more complicated than Abjurant Campion's. Collapse levels 2 and 3, 4 and 5, etc., give it an Arcane Strike thing at level 1, make Phase/Seeker arrow available at will as a swift action, give it Hail of Arrows more times per day (or sacrifice spell slots to get more uses), and just drop Arrow of Death. Then give it 3/5 casting and call it good. This is not a set of abilities worth spending ten levels on.

[Nousos]

I should point out that the arcane archer is potentially an over powered PrC regardless of whether you are approaching it as a caster or an archer. For a caster, as someone has already pointed out, it reduces the casting time of any area spell you are loading into an arrow to a standard action regardless of the regular casting time of the spell. That lets you drop area spells in combat which simply aren't meant to be cast on demand like that.

From the archer point of view, your bow effectively has an enhancement bonus of half your AA level rounded up. That means you don't need to waste enchantment "slots" on making your arrows more likely to hit and can focus on making them do damage. You just need a +1 enhancement on your bow and you can add whatever else you want. Even better, since arrow enchantments can still work with bow enchantments you can have a whole lot of damage potential loaded onto every single arrow.

I envy the group where this is over powered, especially since the caster spells are going to suck with the loss of caster levels. If I want to drop area spells in combat, I will use higher caster levels to quicken one and cast 2 in one turn with extra metamagic tacked on as I feel like.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's not great for standard casters, but anyone casting off of an accelerated casting list such as Chameleon, Sublime Chord or Divine Crusader can put in some work with a two-level dip into AA.

I would make the following changes to make it anything other than a niche two-level dip, though...


Remove the elf-only requirement. Seriously, there is like zero elf fluff with this class. Why is this even here?
Change the enhancement bonus on ranged attacks to an unnamed or insight bonus. No one is ever going to not have a magical bow of some sort, so at least one of these boosts will be totally useless. Also, class features that are outshone by a third level spell on an ostensibly magical class are kinda lame.
Add in half casting. I'm unpopular in this suggestion, but overall I feel that full casting PrCs are a mistake. It should be a sacrifice to take a PrC with cool abilities. However, a half-casting AA can still pick up 8th-level spells, or 9ths with some work. You could potentially up this to 7/10, but I wouldn't go higher than that.
Change seeking, phase and hail of arrows to be usable 1/encounter, or 1/2 levels, or Int times per day. They're cool abilities, but the whole "daily use" thing is a relic from 3.0, and discarding that model was about the best thing that later 3.5 supplements did.
Change the DC of death arrow to 20+Int, and get rid of the whole "takes a day to create" nonsense. Seriously, it's a capstone ability and you will be ECL 16 before you pick it up. Make it at least as effective as the assassin's death attack. The day to create thing is flavorful, I'll admit, but it means you can't use it even every day if you're mid-adventure.

[Segev]

Inscribe Scroll Arrow: An Arcane Archer may use his Scribe Scroll feat to inscribe a scroll onto an arrow. Any Arcane Archer may activate these arrows by expending a spell slot of the appropriate level while firing it as part of a normal attack. The arrow's target becomes the target of the spell or the center of the area or emanation. The save DC is determined using the firing Arcane Archer's own relevant casting stat.

Anybody capable of using scrolls may use the arrow as a normal scroll; only Arcane Archers can use them as arrows while empowering them to expend their scribed spells at their destination.



Yes, this means they can fire multiple spell-arrows per round, burning through spell slots and scribed scrolls as they do so.


edit: Maybe, in a 7/10 progression version, break this up so that it allows the AA to use it for spells of 1-3 level on the first "no caster level" level, 4-6 on the second, and 7-9 on the third.

[Eldariel]

Add in half casting. I'm unpopular in this suggestion, but overall I feel that full casting PrCs are a mistake. It should be a sacrifice to take a PrC with cool abilities. However, a half-casting AA can still pick up 8th-level spells, or 9ths with some work. You could potentially up this to 7/10, but I wouldn't go higher than that.

There's not a single ½ casting PRC that's actually decently rewarding to play without a lot of trickery (fast progression classes combined with taking partial levels and splitting the lost caster levels). If you want the class to be enjoyable to play right out of the box, I recommend against using 5/10 on anything. 7/10 and 6/10 can be playable with the right powers and level split but 5/10 is just ridiculously punishing for progression while you're playing it up (not so on 20 but more like on 10-15).

[DarkSonic1337]

I'm feeling the hurt on swiftblade's 6/10 progression in a game I'm playing right now. And swiftblade has AMAZING class abilities.

I couldn't imagine playing a 5/10 magic class ever. And I've played half casters like Magus and Duskblade. Idk why but you just FEEL the opportunity cost more when you go into a partial casting prestige class than when you play a half caster from the start.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm feeling the hurt on swiftblade's 6/10 progression in a game I'm playing right now. And swiftblade has AMAZING class abilities.

I couldn't imagine playing a 5/10 magic class ever. And I've played half casters like Magus and Duskblade. Idk why but you just FEEL the opportunity cost more when you go into a partial casting prestige class than when you play a half caster from the start.

Definitely agreed. 5/10 casting is almost always bad. If you're primarily a caster, because, well, you lose 5 casting levels. If you started as a wizard, dipped a single level into something else to meet a PrC's requirements, and then went through 10 levels of a half-casting class, you don't even get eighth level spells. (However, if they advance casting at odd-numbered levels, a 1-level dip can be justified; Mindbender is a good example) If you're primarily a non-caster, getting only 5 levels of casting is not nearly enough to offset what you give up by taking a level or three in a spellcasting class. Even 6/10 casting is really shaky; I'd only consider it if the prestige class were otherwise perfect for what I was going for (e.g. Master Transmogrifist for a polymorph wizard).

[Piggy Knowles]

Fair enough. I do think that 9/10 and 10/10 casting classes are often too good, but 7/10 isn't unreasonable.

[Phelix-Mu]

In the arena of apples and oranges, I imagine that, if you compare [anything] to [solid gold potential of full-casting], then you are going to have a sour taste in your mouth. Rather than compare 5/10 or whatever plus coolness to 10/10 (and the cosmic might attending such), compare it to what you used to have.

In short, as long as you are getting cooler, don't look at the Tier 1s (and their full-casting PrCs) for a reference point. Such would imply that you should expect to be that cool, and, sadly, that is not supported by this edition of the game (among others).

[Eldariel]

In the arena of apples and oranges, I imagine that, if you compare [anything] to [solid gold potential of full-casting], then you are going to have a sour taste in your mouth. Rather than compare 5/10 or whatever plus coolness to 10/10 (and the cosmic might attending such), compare it to what you used to have.

In short, as long as you are getting cooler, don't look at the Tier 1s (and their full-casting PrCs) for a reference point. Such would imply that you should expect to be that cool, and, sadly, that is not supported by this edition of the game (among others).

At least to me, getting no casting every other level feels much worse than getting slower casting progression every level (á la Bard or Duskblade; anything that actually gets reasonable spells per day, not talking about Paladin or Ranger "spellcasting" here). It's just not smooth and in play, when you can spend many months on a single level (depending on the frequency of your sessions), it really sucks when you hit that level of "got nothing!"

[Phelix-Mu]

At least to me, getting no casting every other level feels much worse than getting slower casting progression every level (á la Bard or Duskblade; anything that actually gets reasonable spells per day, not talking about Paladin or Ranger "spellcasting" here). It's just not smooth and in play, when you can spend many months on a single level (depending on the frequency of your sessions), it really sucks when you hit that level of "got nothing!"

Which I think is very valid for a PrC or build that is focused on the casting of spells. But, even among those that do, if you are getting something every level, you should compare what you got to what you had before. Not to what you could have got with a full-caster/full-casting PrC. But, otherwise, I totally agree that dead levels are a real problem from a play standpoint (although everyone gets something...just your something loses its shine compared with Johnny's something + spells/other awesome).

Basically, don't expect parity in a comparison of "+ something" with "+ portion of cosmic power."

[holywhippet]

IN 3.5 it's always standard, so it's actually pretty good for a few spells, like Glyph of Warding and Fimbulwinter.


Glyph of warding is a cleric spell though. Technically you can still pull it off since the imbue arrow ability doesn't specify that the spell has to be arcane. You'd need to take a level in something that can cast arcane spells or some other shenanigans though and since you are already taking two levels in a class that doesn't progress spell casting it might hurt a bit.



I envy the group where this is over powered, especially since the caster spells are going to suck with the loss of caster levels. If I want to drop area spells in combat, I will use higher caster levels to quicken one and cast 2 in one turn with extra metamagic tacked on as I feel like.

It's not just a matter of area spells. It's a matter of using spells that aren't intended for combat because of their long casting time or tossing spells from a long distance like off the edge of a cliff or flying high in the air.