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View Full Version : Optimization P.E.A.C.H my build, please!



Extra Anchovies
2014-08-17, 09:22 PM
Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly
So I've spent the last few days hammering together a two-weapon fighting build, centered around using either greatsword+unarmed strike or glaive+unarmed strike, depending on the circumstances. Knowledge Devotion is a big part of it, too. I've finally finished an initial draft, and would like to know what you all think about the build.
Link to spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1669j0_waBfiW0OMDJJXDOVd4MR4HBQZ9f7NB8obWpNQ/edit?usp=sharing) containing class/level/feat progression, along with BAB, base saves, and class features by level
Link to spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14RQYLTbjOKEHwN9ImsVqZ-jy3N6eGJ32k9tIRGUaJHE/edit#gid=0) containing progression of maneuvers/stances (starting at character level 10)
Link to spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SEoQh2jFFeE7ZVfDmPLn90egJIse7guBFLnTYzYk1l4/edit?usp=sharing) containing progression of skill points (grey boxes are cross-class)
Some notes:
Race is Human. On the class/level sheet, Cs=Cityscape, UA=Unearthed Arcana, CC=Complete Champion, CA=Complete Adventurer, MH=Miniatures Handbook, ToB=Tome of Battle, and PHB2=Player's Handbook 2. On the blade magic sheet, Ssg if Swordsage, Wbl is Warblade, IL is Initiator Level, and all of the parenthesized acronyms following a maneuver/stance name are the discipline from which the maneuver in question is taken.

I know that the above stuff is a bit information-dense, but I want to know what you all think. Does it look fairly solid as-is? Is there anything really useful I may have neglected to include? Any feat/maneuver prerequisites I accidentally ignored? I especially want advice on the selection of maneuvers and stances; I'm fairly new to the Tome of Battle system, so I'm not sure if the ones I chose are worthwhile or not. Thanks!

ETA (as of the fourth post in this thread): Stormguard Warrior isn't an end goal so much as it is something I tossed on because it looked nice; if there's something else that fits in better let me know. Knowledge Devotion is in there to offset TWF penalties and add bonus damage (which can really pile up when I'm making lots of attacks). General combat strategy is to find a place where I threaten multiple enemies, focus on one or two with my normal attacks, then use Robilar's Gambit (combo'd with Double Hit and Combat Reflexes) to get two extra attacks for every one that the enemies make. Unarmed Strike is only for the off-hand weapon, and although Decisive Strike isn't too useful in a TWF build, it can be used while armored, unlike Flurry of Blows.

Darrin
2014-08-17, 10:58 PM
I know that the above stuff is a bit information-dense, but I want to know what you all think. Does it look fairly solid as-is? Is there anything really useful I may have neglected to include? Any feat/maneuver prerequisites I accidentally ignored? I especially want advice on the selection of maneuvers and stances; I'm fairly new to the Tome of Battle system, so I'm not sure if the ones I chose are worthwhile or not. Thanks!

After a brief glance:

Too many Monk levels (you took more than zero) and too many Ranger levels. If you're going to mix TWF with Tome of Battle, you want to make sure you get Time Stands Still. So if you want to focus on Warblade, you need to make sure you only take a maximum of six non-Warblade levels.

Alignment conflict: Monks need to be lawful, Barbarians can't be lawful.

Looks like you've got a "Candy Store" problem, trying to do too many things at once. You're trying to do TWF, fight like a monk, be an urban ranger, and you want Stormguard Warrior on top of all that. Properly done, Stormguard Warrior doesn't really leave enough room to do much else. You'd probably be better off with a Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Warblade 16 build.

Feats:
Ascetic Hunter isn't worth it. I'm not really keen on the Swordsage dip, either, but the Unarmed Swordsage variant + Superior Unarmed Strike feat will give you a much better unarmed damage progression than Monk 2/Ranger 6. I tend to prefer a Battle Dancer 1 dip + Superior Unarmed Strike. But I'm not sure you really need Improved Unarmed Strike, because you don't seem to be doing anything interesting with it (no Flurry, no Snap Kick). Education + Knowledge Devotion... is not really a damage powerhouse here. You're probably better off taking Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative as your Warblade feats.

ACFs:
Unless the DM tells you directly "the entire campaign will be in a city", the Urban Tracking stuff doesn't seem all that useful. I prefer the Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape), but if properly supported this will suck skill points away from your Knowledge skills. I also prefer swapping Wild Empathy for Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion). Urban Companion is somewhat decent, but with your limited Ranger levels, Distracting Attack might be more useful. I'm also curious why you'd take Ferocity over Whirling Frenzy on a TWF build.

You need to strangle a few darlings in your build. Maybe try:

Ranger 2/Battle Dancer 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Warblade +5/Fighter +1/Warblade +10
Feats:
Education (Human)
Combat Reflexes (1st)
TWF (Ranger 2)
IUS (Battle Dancer 1)
Knowledge Devotion (3rd)
Snap Kick (6th)
Improved TWF (Fighter 1)
Double Hit (9th)
Ironheart Aura (Warblade 5)
Stormguard Warrior (12th)
Robilar's Gambit (Fighter 2)
Superior Unarmed Strike (15th)
Improved Initiative (Warblade 13)
Greater TWF (18th)

Tvtyrant
2014-08-18, 12:03 AM
Could you possibly explain what your overarching goals are here? The Stormguard Warrior and Unarmed Strikes/TWF implies to me you are going for a maximum number of touch attacks in a turn build, and then a few extremely damaging attacks the next turn. If this is the case though it might be easier to go for multi-attack and natural weapons to up the number of attacks without the dramatic decline in to-hit that flurries incorporate.

Extra Anchovies
2014-08-18, 10:30 AM
Between the posts I quoted and my responses, this is a long post. I'll put it into two spoilers.

After a brief glance:

Too many Monk levels (you took more than zero) and too many Ranger levels. If you're going to mix TWF with Tome of Battle, you want to make sure you get Time Stands Still. So if you want to focus on Warblade, you need to make sure you only take a maximum of six non-Warblade levels.

Alignment conflict: Monks need to be lawful, Barbarians can't be lawful.

The Monk levels are in there for Improved Unarmed Strike (for my offhand weapon) and Combat Reflexes (to combo with double hit, for two-weapon AoOs), as well as the unarmed damage. Ranger I'm taking for the good Reflex save, the pile of skill points, and two-weapon fighting. As for alignment, I'm building for a game starting at third or fourth level; the alignment change (from LN to N) is built into the backstory.


Looks like you've got a "Candy Store" problem, trying to do too many things at once. You're trying to do TWF, fight like a monk, be an urban ranger, and you want Stormguard Warrior on top of all that. Properly done, Stormguard Warrior doesn't really leave enough room to do much else. You'd probably be better off with a Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Warblade 16 build.

Yeah, I was really unsure about taking Stormguard Warrior; pretty much any time I see it mentioned on this or on a different forum, it's a strongly recommended feat, so I felt like it might be a good thing to take. Is there a different feat that you'd recommend switching it out for?

The Cityscape Ranger ACFs are only in there because like their flavor better than the default Ranger class features they replace; they don't really matter too much.


Feats:
Ascetic Hunter isn't worth it. I'm not really keen on the Swordsage dip, either, but the Unarmed Swordsage variant + Superior Unarmed Strike feat will give you a much better unarmed damage progression than Monk 2/Ranger 6. I tend to prefer a Battle Dancer 1 dip + Superior Unarmed Strike. But I'm not sure you really need Improved Unarmed Strike, because you don't seem to be doing anything interesting with it (no Flurry, no Snap Kick). Education + Knowledge Devotion... is not really a damage powerhouse here. You're probably better off taking Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative as your Warblade feats.

Swordsage dip is there because I won't lose any more BAB from it (already took the 1-point hit from the monk levels) and because they've got access to a nice array of mobility-based maneuvers, more skill points, and good Reflex and Will saves. Improved Initiative I could easily move later in the build; however, I want Combat Reflexes fairly early so I can take Double Hit.

I was strongly considering Superior Unarmed Strike; if my DM allows me to use my character level to determine unarmed damage rather than just adding 4 to my Monk level, it will be replacing Ascetic Hunter. Unarmed strike will be the off-hand weapon, used in conjunction with a two-handed weapon; this will keep my damage from falling too far behind a THF build. Knowledge Devotion is there to offset the TWF penalties against most foes, and the damage bonus is more cost-effective when I'm making more attacks. Flurry of Blows is only usable when unarmored; Unarmed Strike damage is not, and I don't need to be unarmored to use Decisive Strike (hence my taking that ACF). Being able to wear mithral breastplate is better than taking -2 to hit for an extra attack. Snap Kick I didn't have room for, but if you have a suggestion for something I should remove to make room for Snap Kick, that would be great.


ACFs:
Unless the DM tells you directly "the entire campaign will be in a city", the Urban Tracking stuff doesn't seem all that useful. I prefer the Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape), but if properly supported this will suck skill points away from your Knowledge skills. I also prefer swapping Wild Empathy for Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion). Urban Companion is somewhat decent, but with your limited Ranger levels, Distracting Attack might be more useful. I'm also curious why you'd take Ferocity over Whirling Frenzy on a TWF build.

Ferocity increases Dexterity; in addition to giving +2 to AC and Reflex saves (which are both also provided by Whirling Frenzy), that's +2 initiative, and 2 extra attacks of opportunity per round. With Double Hit, that can be pretty powerful. It can also be activated as an immediate action, and would last one round longer (4+Con vs 3+Con rounds). With only one level of Barbarian, though, which of the rage types I choose doesn't matter too much; I may change my mind after actually playing the character for a while. Thanks for recommending Distracting Attack, though; I'll look into that one and think about whether it's better to have the in-combat advantage it provides or the out-of-combat conveniences a companion would give.


You need to strangle a few darlings in your build. Maybe try:

Ranger 2/Battle Dancer 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Warblade +5/Fighter +1/Warblade +10
Feats:
Education (Human)
Combat Reflexes (1st)
TWF (Ranger 2)
IUS (Battle Dancer 1)
Knowledge Devotion (3rd)
Snap Kick (6th)
Improved TWF (Fighter 1)
Double Hit (9th)
Ironheart Aura (Warblade 5)
Stormguard Warrior (12th)
Robilar's Gambit (Fighter 2)
Superior Unarmed Strike (15th)
Improved Initiative (Warblade 13)
Greater TWF (18th)

Battle Dancer was a class I had no knowledge of before now, but now that I look at it, it certainly seems nice. It also negates the need for alignment changes in the backstory. May swap the Monk levels for Battle Dancer 1/Fighter 1 or something similar now that you've brought the class to my attention. The rest of your build suggestion also looks pretty useful; only two levels of low-skill-point classes, better overall hit dice, and no real losses outside of fluffy side class features. I'll definitely be considering a lot of your suggestions. Thanks!


Could you possibly explain what your overarching goals are here? The Stormguard Warrior and Unarmed Strikes/TWF implies to me you are going for a maximum number of touch attacks in a turn build, and then a few extremely damaging attacks the next turn. If this is the case though it might be easier to go for multi-attack and natural weapons to up the number of attacks without the dramatic decline in to-hit that flurries incorporate.

Primary goal for combat is to move into a position where I can reach as many enemies as I have attacks of opportunity (either via Tumble or by using maneuvers), choose one or two to focus on during my turns, and use Robilar's Gambit and Double Hit to get two attacks for every one they make. Stormguard Warrior is something I tossed in because it looked fairly useful. Not so sure about it anymore, though; from what the two of you have said, it's the sort of feat that builds are centered on, not the sort that's tacked on to the end. Unarmed Strike is only going to be the off-hand weapon, with a two-handed weapon as the primary. AoOs are a big part of the build, between Combat Reflexes, Double Hit, and Robilar's Gambit.

P.S. It seems that I didn't give enough explanation as to what exactly the build is going to do, so I'll edit a blurb about that into the original post.