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MeklorIlavator
2007-03-06, 05:38 PM
Hello, I am making a wizard for a level 10 campaign, and I am on the fence about what kind of wizard to make. So far I am the second arcanist(we both wanted to be wizards, so we decided to both play). This is in the Dragonlance campaign setting, so there is a pretty much mandatory prestige class for all arcanists, the Tower Wizard. For those unfamiliar with it, you have to give up a third school of magic to join it. My friend has already made his character, and focused in Transmutation, with Enchantment, Necromancy, and Abjuration as his prohibited schools. I talked to the DM after looking over the class, and he is allowing me to not take the class, but instead pretend that I am, through bluff and such.

Therefore, I am toying with 2 ideas about the character itself. I was either going to make the character a Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus focusing on Illusion, or I was going to make a Wizard/Master Specialist, focusing on either abjuration(going into IotSV) or conjuration. In the second choice the wizard would be focusing on defending himself from any attacks by the tower wizards with battlefield control. Does anyone have any suggestions?

If it helps, Grey elf is available, and the array is 9, 13, 14, 14, 16, 18. So far I was making him in the old category, for the extra 2 in Int, but looking at possible Physicals, That might not be a good idea. Opinions?

Ikkitosen
2007-03-06, 05:42 PM
If you're asking "do you think a starting Int 20 IotSV would be a powerful character" the answer is almost surely, yes. Sounds like you've got it all sorted - try not to bar the same schools as your partner in crime is all!

Maryring
2007-03-06, 05:48 PM
As long as you don't ban Conjuration or Abjuration, anything should be fine. Both are nice points of focus, since your friend seems to cover Transmutation, which should be enough. An idea would be to have him focus on Transmutation and Conjuration, while you yourself focus on Abjuration and Necromancy/Divination. I'd say that would be especially good if you go the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil route, since you'd be focusing on Abjuration anyway. That is my suggestion at least.

Just make sure that you keep Abjuration. No matter what.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-06, 05:55 PM
Thanks for the opinions, thought I might ban Enchantment(not necromancy, it will probably be evocation and enchantment/illusion). Any thoughts on age penalties as opposed to the bonuses they give?




Just make sure that you keep Abjuration. No matter what.
Yeah, when I saw that my friend had banned it(in favor of evocation), I was kinda like:eek:. And while it would be nice for us pair up our spell lists like that, he has already made his, and is adamant about not changing it. Always a bad idea to make a full character in a vacuum.

cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 07:41 PM
You are required to take the Test but not the PRC. Not everyone is a specialist mage in DL.

Otherwise they will drag you into the towers to take it anyway.

psilontech
2007-03-06, 07:56 PM
Stupid question, sorry, but what exactly is IotSV?

cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 08:10 PM
Intitiate of the Sevenfold Veil from Complete Mage

Draz74
2007-03-06, 08:16 PM
Intitiate of the Sevenfold Veil from Complete Arcane


Fixed for you.

cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 08:20 PM
Thanks, I don't know how I got that wrong.

Ramza00
2007-03-06, 08:50 PM
Stupid question, sorry, but what exactly is IotSV?
Pure pure cheese, one of the strongest prcs in the game. Pretty much you are a full caster+you create effects similar to the prismatic line of spells, in the shapes of walls, domes, or personal veils. Eventually you get the ability to do this as an immediate action. These veils discourage melee from getting close to you or your allies+the block line of sight and thus 80% of spells since you can't get a target or effect. As Logic Ninja posted in his batman guide, it is "Don't Die Ever Prc". Additionally you eventually get kaledoscope of doom as a capstone ability (aka death to someone via several saves or loses) and a bonus to dispeling abjurrations.

IotSV is a "defensive" king of wizards, Incantatrix is a "offensive" king of wizards due to its metamagic abilities.
------------------------------------
Oh if you have complete mage being a master specialist in abjurration gives you the feat requirements neccessary for it, while also giving you a boost to your caster level for dispelling. Your are also only one more spell focus feat from taking some levels in archmage. It just "folds together naturally" so well.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 09:24 PM
It is pretty powerful, but not very... FLuffy. Just... crunchy. And bland. But oh, oh so pleaseantly crunchy.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-06, 09:28 PM
Pure pure cheese, one of the strongest prcs in the game. Pretty much you are a full caster+you create effects similar to the prismatic line of spells, in the shapes of walls, domes, or personal veils. Eventually you get the ability to do this as an immediate action. These veils discourage melee from getting close to you or your allies+the block line of sight and thus 80% of spells since you can't get a target or effect. As Logic Ninja posted in his batman guide, it is "Don't Die Ever Prc". Additionally you eventually get kaledoscope of doom as a capstone ability (aka death to someone via several saves or loses) and a bonus to dispeling abjurrations.

IotSV is a "defensive" king of wizards, Incantatrix is a "offensive" king of wizards due to its metamagic abilities.
------------------------------------
Oh if you have complete mage being a master specialist in abjurration gives you the feat requirements neccessary for it, while also giving you a boost to your caster level for dispelling. Your are also only one more spell focus feat from taking some levels in archmage. It just "folds together naturally" so well.
And you can still fit in 8 levels of Incantatrix before and after IotSV.
You don't get the cheaper metamagic, but you get Metamagic Item, the horrific Metamagic Effect... bleh.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 09:35 PM
Yeah, a seven level long prestige class... t just wierds me out. *jibbilies*

Ramza00
2007-03-06, 09:39 PM
Yeah, a seven level long prestige class... t just wierds me out. *jibbilies*

Very little should scare your pcs out more than a "wizard of the rainbow" :smallwink:

Collin152
2007-03-06, 09:43 PM
Fear my prismatic dancing! Boo-ya! Multicolored madness All Night, baby!

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-06, 09:44 PM
Yeah, it's not like, oh, Saruman of Many Colors is precedent for wizard + rainbow or anything.

Or even the picture of the Archmage in the DMG.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 09:58 PM
I love the cape in that picture. The guy? Not so much. Bad mustache.

The_Snark
2007-03-06, 09:58 PM
Or the prismatic spells from the PHB that the prestige class is based off, which are some of the more powerful defensive spells out there (and personal favorites of mine).

It's not a bad concept at all; in practice, it probably ought to lose a couple caster levels.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 10:04 PM
Yeah, it should; getting something for essentially nothing? Always good. Getting something great for absolutely nothing (for sorcerers)? Yes, sir!

Ramza00
2007-03-06, 10:11 PM
Note it does require 3 feat investment (Greater Spell Focus (abjuration), Spell Focus (abjuration), Skill Focus (Spellcraft)) so it isn't "free", but I consider that a cheap feat investment anyway since archmage uses two of the three feats or master specialist will give you the 2 other feats you need, while master specialist only needs spell focus abjuration.

Collin152
2007-03-06, 10:17 PM
By free, I meant class features.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-07, 07:29 PM
You are required to take the Test but not the PRC. Not everyone is a specialist mage in DL.

Otherwise they will drag you into the towers to take it anyway.
Yeah, I have to talk to the DM about that, he was taking the stance that everyone had to take the class.

Assassinfox
2007-03-07, 07:56 PM
Show those tower wizards that they're not the boss of you! Join the Knights of the Thorn instead! :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-07, 10:04 PM
Ito7V + Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage, I think, full BAB plus full spellcasting plus lots of other fun things, 5 level class). Both require GSF (Abjuration), so same requirements go for both PrC's... then grab Archmage for the last few levels. Again with needing the GSF anyways, so no extra damage there. Get the most out of those 'worthless' prerequsite feats, squeeze them until they scream!

Also, since you're a secondary caster, consider Sorcerer as an option. The wizards won't drag you up to the tower if you're not a wizard, after all...

cupkeyk
2007-03-07, 10:13 PM
Actually you don't need the fifth level of Abjurant champion as it does not benefit a non gish build(since your bab is about as high as 11 by level 20). The first four levels are still awesome though. Wiz3Master Specialist4, IoTSV7 Abjurant Champion 4, Archmage 1

Ramza00
2007-03-07, 10:15 PM
Wiz3Master Specialist4, IoTSV7 Abjurant Champion 4, Archmage 1
Build won't work. IoTSV requires 12 ranks in certain skills and thus can't be taken till 10th lvl. Abjurant Champion requires a bab of 5. You need more filler levels.

cupkeyk
2007-03-07, 10:47 PM
I have made two mistakes this thread alone. Those levels don't even add up to twenty...

Wiz3 Master Specialist6, IoTSV7 Abjurant Champion 4

An abjurer does't exactly benefit from any of the archmage's abilities anyway.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-07, 10:50 PM
Two questions,
A) Is the Moderate Esoterica of the MS worth it when specializing in Abj?
B) Does the Abjurant Champion's swift abjuration work on all class levels, or only its class levels?

cupkeyk
2007-03-07, 10:59 PM
a) d00d, it's Mettle(hexblade) AND Evasion(rogue) combined. It rocks so much I get goosebumps.
b) it's any abjuration spells so that's all your abju spells.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-07, 11:02 PM
a) d00d, it's Mettle(hexblade) AND Evasion(rogue) combined. It rocks so much I get goosebumps.
b) it's any abjuration spells so that's all your abju spells.
For B, I was refering to limit of 1/2 your class level. Any answers?

themightybiggun
2007-03-07, 11:05 PM
In the updated version, you do have to take the test, but you can take whatever classes you want as long as they follow the focused spellcasting traditions of the Wizards of High Sorcery. (i.e. they prepare spells each day, and their powers don't endanger the orders or the orders' reputations.)

Also, they now have it that you don't have to specialize to get into the class, if you choose to go as a "Generalist" then you just don't get the benefits of the "Focused Specialization" class feature. This only works if you don't specialize as a level 1 wizard.

For answer B. it only applies to the Abjurant Champion class levels, it doesn't state that it stacks with any other caster levels so... *shrug*

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-07, 11:08 PM
Where is this update? It could be handy.

And that makes the ability pretty bad(in my opinion) because even after taking 5 levels of the class, it only works up to level 2 spells.

themightybiggun
2007-03-07, 11:12 PM
Uh...what sourcebooks are your DM using?

This "new" update came about in the Age of Mortals sourcebook.
(2004 I think?)

It also provides a couple of examples of wizards from the novels who followed this path.

A great book for you would be the Tower of High Sorcery sourcebook. Unfortunately, its nearly impossible to find except for the distributor.

Yep, but the ability makes sense, as class levels to spell levels are roughly 2 to 1.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-07, 11:16 PM
He is using the Dragonlance campaign setting. Then again, if I am able to talk to him I might be able to persuade him about taking the test, but not the PRC.

marjan
2007-03-07, 11:19 PM
And that makes the ability pretty bad(in my opinion) because even after taking 5 levels of the class, it only works up to level 2 spells.

I think it is class level/2 rounded up so that would be 3rd lvl spells iif it chamges anything? And since when is automatick quicken bad. Just cast Mage Armor and Shield for 8+class lvl AC bonus and say "hit me" - that's two swift actions and one free action.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-07, 11:23 PM
I think it is class level/2 rounded up so that would be 3rd lvl spells iif it chamges anything? And since when is automatick quicken bad. Just cast Mage Armor and Shield for 8+class lvl AC bonus and say "hit me" - that's two swift actions and one free action.
Oops, thanks for catching that. And to the latter part of the post, I would just have a Violet and Indigo Viel up. They couldn't even reach me at that point.

Personally, I'm not sure what to do with my last 3 free levels, but I probably wouldn't reach them anyways.

marjan
2007-03-07, 11:58 PM
Oops, thanks for catching that. And to the latter part of the post, I would just have a Violet and Indigo Viel up. They couldn't even reach me at that point.

While that would do job quite good there is no harm in getting extra options to protect yourself. If you go abjurant champion you can have (Greater) Mage Armor up all day and since the Veils have limits on per day usage it would be wise to save them when you really need them. Abjurant Champion/IoSFV is the great combo for paranoid wizards like me.:smallwink:
Other options would be to go Abjurer3/Master Specialist10/Initiate of Seventhfold Veil7. The major school esoterica for abjurer is great: Cast Antimagic Field on fighter and let him grapple enemy wizard. And there are other usefull spells with personal range - Shield on fighter or something like that (though ny the level you get it you will have better things to do then casting first level spells, especialy in combat).

Ramza00
2007-03-08, 12:10 AM
Doesn't Abjurant Champion's quick ability also work with other abjurations such as protection from evil?

Ramza00
2007-03-08, 12:11 AM
And Master Specialist dispel bonus is half the Master Specialist levels class level, not your character level

marjan
2007-03-08, 12:16 AM
Doesn't Abjurant Champion's quick ability also work with other abjurations such as protection from evil?

Yes, as well as Extended abjuration (or whateer is that ability called).

Ikkitosen
2007-03-08, 04:50 AM
Yeah, get all 5 levels of Abj Champ. Quickened Magic Circle Against X, Protection from Energy and Dispel Magic from the SRD alone? Yes please!

Maryring
2007-03-08, 06:48 AM
Of course, you can't really do much wrong if you focus everything on IotSV. Wizards win anyway in later levels. With IotSV, Wizards win ALWAYS. You can't really go wrong with the class, as long as you can handle the cheese.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-08, 06:53 AM
Eh, my group is heavy on optimizatoin, so that it probably will not be too bad.

I just realized that this will be my first wizard(I once played a wu gen), so this ahould be pretty good.

marjan
2007-03-08, 07:03 AM
If they are heavy on optimization why did your friend drop abjuration???:smallconfused:

Maryring
2007-03-08, 07:07 AM
(In my opinion) there are three schools a wizard should be executed for banning. Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation. If you really want to ban anything, feel free to choose from Illusion, Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy, but banning any of those three is just... wrong.

marjan
2007-03-08, 07:59 AM
(In my opinion) there are three schools a wizard should be executed for banning. Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation. If you really want to ban anything, feel free to choose from Illusion, Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy, but banning any of those three is just... wrong.

Unless you have wis score of less then 4 to justify it.:smallbiggrin:

Maryring
2007-03-08, 08:30 AM
If you have a wis score of 4, I'll spare you the execution and send you into a strawberry cupcake themed prison. You're just dull-minded enough to not go crazy.

Marius
2007-03-08, 10:41 AM
Why don't you specialize in divination? It's always a good choice and with splatbook it's a great choice and since you have to give up only one school you could take TW and only lose 2 schools.

Nahal
2007-03-08, 11:57 AM
Yeah I don't see why more diviners aren't around. Divination spells are some of the most powerful (albeit in a subtle manner) at higher levels, but because they're not as directly applicable in combat you only lose one school. Give up evocation if you're going for subtlety, and voila! Batman.

Wolf53226
2007-03-08, 04:04 PM
Because Divination's strength is in the hands of the DM, to a large degree. If the DM doesn't like you using them all the time, they will make sure they are some of the weakest spells. This is why I have yet to design a Diviner, all my DM's in the past blocked us from learning anything useful with the spells, so it just wasn't worth it.

Marius
2007-03-08, 04:44 PM
Because Divination's strength is in the hands of the DM, to a large degree. If the DM doesn't like you using them all the time, they will make sure they are some of the weakest spells. This is why I have yet to design a Diviner, all my DM's in the past blocked us from learning anything useful with the spells, so it just wasn't worth it.

Level 0: Detect Magic or Read magic
Level 1: True Strike, Identify and Comprehend languages
Level 2: Detect Thoughts or See Invisibility
Level 3: Tongues or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Level 4: Scrying or Locate Creature
Level 5: Prying Eyes or Telephatic Bond

And at level 6 you have True Seeing. Even if your DM doesn't allow you to really use your spells to know anything you can use divination in other ways (like true strike), if you have Spell Compendium you can probably have spells a lot better than this ones.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-08, 04:51 PM
Why don't you specialize in divination? It's always a good choice and with splatbook it's a great choice and since you have to give up only one school you could take TW and only lose 2 schools.
Well, to answer your question, I like the MS(Abj), and I really want to at least play a IotSV once. As for tower wizard, I don't want to take the class, as I see it as somewhat over restrictive(granted that impression is from a spot check). I am going to try and take the test without doing the PrC.

clarkvalentine
2007-03-10, 02:14 AM
This "new" update came about in the Age of Mortals sourcebook.

That's in Towers of High Sorcery sourcebook, actually. It's available in PDF on DriveThruRPG.

Otherwise, themightybiggun hit the nail on the head. In the DLCS, it implies you're required to take the PrC, but that was never the intent (long story there). And even if you do, the Arcane Focus class ability is optional in the revised PrC.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-12, 02:43 PM
Yeah, my DM just houseruled that the class is mandatory if you want to be a legal spellcaster. He also told me that if I go along with my initial idea of a outlaw pretending to be lawful, I have to keep myself under constant Divination Blackout(I have an idea for that) and away form higher ranking members of the order, or they unleash their spells against me. Okay so far, until he tells me that the spell is an epic level spell useable once per week, and with no save it permanently drains 2d4 INT. Now I currently have an intelligence of 26(with the circlet of Int), but he has already said that we start out missing all of our items, and that we don't know how to use all of our abilities. So, do you the wise board members think I should stick with my idea or change it.(Personally, I think that our DM is a bit to DM vs. Player, but thats just me. He isn't drawing out the big guns on anyone else.)

clarkvalentine
2007-03-12, 02:53 PM
I think your DM is being unreasonable, myself. It seems he's telling you it will be suicide to play this character.

Edit: Related discussion here ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37029 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37029%29) ), if you're interested.

Edit 2: D'oh! You've been in that thread. Never mind. :smallwink:

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-12, 03:00 PM
Yeah, I wanted to do this for 2 reasons, namely we needed Abjuration and I have wanted to be an arcanist for some time now. Oh well, I guess I'll just have top make due with Druids.:smallbiggrin:

Aquillion
2007-03-12, 03:00 PM
Level 0: Detect Magic or Read magic
Level 1: True Strike, Identify and Comprehend languages
Level 2: Detect Thoughts or See Invisibility
Level 3: Tongues or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Level 4: Scrying or Locate Creature
Level 5: Prying Eyes or Telephatic Bond

And at level 6 you have True Seeing. Even if your DM doesn't allow you to really use your spells to know anything you can use divination in other ways (like true strike), if you have Spell Compendium you can probably have spells a lot better than this ones.They're good spells, yes, but look at them again. For most, there's no advantage to casting more per day; you cast them once, get your information, and that's all. It's a good school, but the advantages of specialization don't help it so much.

That's why non-combat skills are less costly to specialize in... even when they have good utility spells, they're usually the sort of spells you cast once or twice a day to drastically help the adventure, not something you throw around constantly like buffs, save-or-dies, magic missiles or fireballs.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-12, 03:15 PM
While you did ask for a wizard, I do ask that you spare some time for the wizard's bigger, nastier, and divine cousin. The Archivist - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3

Be the party cleric as well.

clarkvalentine
2007-03-12, 03:19 PM
An archivist would make a great - if non-canon - priest of Gilean in a Dragonlance game.

Assassinfox
2007-03-12, 03:19 PM
They don't have Archivists in Dragonlance. He's trying to pimp his wizard, not replace the party cleric.

Archivists are awesome, though. :smallbiggrin:

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-12, 03:23 PM
There aren't any semi mandatory PrC for Clerics or Druids that will cast epic spells that drain a primary casting stat for not joining them, right? because I am tired of this guy screwing my character.

clarkvalentine
2007-03-12, 03:28 PM
There aren't any semi mandatory PrC for Clerics or Druids that will cast epic spells that drain a primary casting stat for not joining them, right?

Nope, you should be good to go. Just the requirement that they follow a god - no clerics of a philosophy in DL. (Canonically, anyway - house rule to your heart's content)


because I am tired of this guy screwing my character.

You know, given his decrees about wizards, I'd not expect that to stop after chargen.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-12, 03:37 PM
Nope, you should be good to go. Just the requirement that they follow a god - no clerics of a philosophy in DL. (Canonically, anyway - house rule to your heart's content)

You know, given his decrees about wizards, I'd not expect that to stop after chargen.


This guy isn't to big on canon, and I can at least talk to him. Anyways, if he really goes after my character, there could be problems. After all, these are my friends too, so I don't think that he could(or would) royally mess up my character if it didn't have some basis in RAW. Plus this would let us have a decent healer(the last one didn't prepare spells, period). Maybe I can do a Yin-Yang style one, like Evil/Good domains, play him Lawful Neutral. Maybe. That could also be my secondary character for when by first dies by being hunted down after killing a Wizard of High Sorcery(there is one in my party) and the rest of his party after being revealed, or bieng killed by his party:smallfrown:.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-12, 04:35 PM
They're good spells, yes, but look at them again. For most, there's no advantage to casting more per day; you cast them once, get your information, and that's all. It's a good school, but the advantages of specialization don't help it so much.

That's why non-combat skills are less costly to specialize in... even when they have good utility spells, they're usually the sort of spells you cast once or twice a day to drastically help the adventure, not something you throw around constantly like buffs, save-or-dies, magic missiles or fireballs.

Yeeeeeah. Once per day. Like you have one bonus slot of each spell level from specializing in Divination.

So you slap your Divination spells into your specialization slots, meaning you don't need to use regular slots on them.

Collin152
2007-03-12, 05:50 PM
Yeeeeeah. Once per day. Like you have one bonus slot of each spell level from specializing in Divination.

So you slap your Divination spells into your specialization slots, meaning you don't need to use regular slots on them.
Aw, I wanted to say that... but he's right; you technically qualify as a specialized wizard, you've only lost one school, and all those bothersome divinations spells have their own little resting place, letting you effectivley fill that open slot with a spell from any school but one.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-17, 08:30 PM
You might consider the UA Domain Mage which gives you a fixed known bonus domain spell leveling up without a corresponding loss of 2 schools like a standard specialist wizard.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-17, 08:40 PM
Thanks for the reply, Mike, but this character is gone because of restrictions if played. The character I am Playing now is on the Good Warlock thread, if you are interested.