Question regarding Controlling Undead

[sishquebob]

Ok so a little background here I am involved in an epic level campaign where all characters start at level 24. That being said I am a plain Jane human Dread Necromancer 14 / Pale Master 10. I was informed that we would be going against a CR 30 Lich. So my question is what are the rules regarding Control Undead (since I have access to this particular spell). After reading the description I know I can control it for 1min / caster level (which is 29 due to item enhancements) I'm really trying to get at is what are the different checks I need to make in order to pull this off?

[KillianHawkeye]

There are no checks involved. If the Lich fails its Will Save, it has to do whatever you tell it for the duration. Assuming that you don't take this time to destroy it and its phylactery (or in some other way render it harmless), it then stalks you mercilessly and murders you when you are least expecting it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Keep in mind that unless the CR 30 Lich multiclassed or was a nonstandard race, they're a 28th-level spellcaster. That means their will save is going to be through the roof (base of +16), and they'll probably know enough about magic to be aware of the Control Undead spell and take precautions accordingly. They may also have items granting them spell resistance.

Also, defeating the BBEG with one second-level spell is a good way to annoy everyone else at the table.

[KillianHawkeye]

Keep in mind that unless the CR 30 Lich multiclassed or was a nonstandard race, they're a 28th-level spellcaster. That means their will save is going to be through the roof (base of +16), and they'll probably know enough about magic to be aware of the Control Undead spell and take precautions accordingly. They may also have items granting them spell resistance.

Actually, now that you mention it, any self-respecting epic level Lich probably has some means of getting access to spell immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm) for problematic spells such as control undead and command undead (and possibly stuff like heal and disintegrate if it's greater spell immunity) even if they don't have the ability to cast Cleric spells themselves.

[sishquebob]

Makes sense considering my character isn't even a Lich yet and has a Will save of almost 30 so any recommendations on how to take it out just incase the Control Undead fails (more like when it fails)?

[Zanos]

What's your party like? Do you know anything about the spells the Lich prefers?

[sishquebob]

What's your party like? Do you know anything about the spells the Lich prefers?

No idea as far as the preferred spells. But the part consists of 2 rogues 1 fighter 1 half orc monk a wizard my dread necro with a tainted soul marshal 20 exotic weapons master 1 as the undead cohort.

[KillianHawkeye]

No idea as far as the preferred spells. But the part consists of 2 rogues 1 fighter 1 half orc monk a wizard my dread necro with a tainted soul marshal 20 exotic weapons master 1 as the undead cohort.

Do the Rogues have any means of getting their Sneak Attack against undead? What is the Wizard good at?

[sishquebob]

yeah both rogues have piercing strike the wizard from what I can tell is just built to cast anything and everything it really didn't specialize in any school.

[LimSindull]

any recommendations on how to take it out just incase the Control Undead fails (more like when it fails)?

With a sonic screwdriver, while it sleeps.

This is off the top of my head. Liches are evil (yes?) so any protection from evil would help. As well as anything that can hurt evil (bane evil? Holy Avenger?) The party lacks a cleric, so this could be troublesome and it might be worth it to hire a higher level follower to go with you.
Also, if your party could take some exalted feats it would help out, they have feats that deal damage against undead and evil.

Besides all that, your main things are negating his big spells, which I'm sure will be ridiculously hard. It is this one's opinion that your casters get some greater (super extra greater) dispel magic (wands, rods) so that you can break a lot of his defensive items and hopefully keep him from casting some spells. Get your melee friends some freedom of movement stuff to keep the from being paralyzed. And some magic resistance or save buffs. (thinking disintegration here)

I would recommend time stop, greater dispel magic (this won't work on artifacts and deity level magic) and get your fighters to make the lich's concentration checks (if that's a thing) as high as possible. Get everyone true sight.

That may be unrealistic and I wouldn't expect to be able to make all of those preparations, this is just what i'd prefer barring the ability to get Boccob to time-a-port and kill this guy waaay sooner.

Last, have a resurrection contingency. Pay a temple to resurrect you using body parts that you leave there (hair may do) and tell them to do it in a given amount of days unless you show back up and tell them it's okay.

These are my opinion's, good luck

[nolongerchaos]

Something interesting to be aware of is if you can boost your CL enough (ioun stone, Consumptive Field [even without cheese], etc.) you can use your Command Undead from Pale Master to gain control of the Lich without even forcing a save. If he's a Demilich it'll be even easier, since that template has a larger CR adjustment and therefore fewer HD.

[sishquebob]

Something interesting to be aware of is if you can boost your CL enough (ioun stone, Consumptive Field [even without cheese], etc.) you can use your Command Undead from Pale Master to gain control of the Lich without even forcing a save. If he's a Demilich it'll be even easier, since that template has a larger CR adjustment and therefore fewer HD.

Well with an Orange Ioun stone, Vest of the Archmage, and Gloves of greater arcane might, would you think that would boost it high enough to where the lich would be denied the save? With all that my effective CL would be a 28....

[KingAtomsk]

Well with an Orange Ioun stone, Vest of the Archmage, and Gloves of greater arcane might, would you think that would boost it high enough to where the lich would be denied the save? With all that my effective CL would be a 28....

That probably just cuts it (IIRC Pale Master's Control Undead Spell-like requires equal or fewer HD than your CL) but because this is a spell-like ability, it allows SR. Be prepared to face a lofty Spell Resistance if the lich is indeed a 28th-level wizard

[sishquebob]

Wait no where in the Lich or demilich templates does it say immune to necromancy effects so in order to reduce the amount of hit die of the lich and also to reduce saves, assuming I make the range touch attack, hit it with a fell drain ray of enervation (making it a 1d4+1 negative level hit) followed by the control undead spell like ability from the pale master for which can be administered using spectral hand? As far as the lich's CL it would only be at most a CL 26 since the template imparts a +4 level adjustment.

[LimSindull]

Wait no where in the Lich or demilich templates does it say immune to necromancy effects so in order to reduce the amount of hit die of the lich and also to reduce saves, assuming I make the range touch attack, hit it with a fell drain ray of enervation (making it a 1d4+1 negative level hit) followed by the control undead spell like ability from the pale master for which can be administered using spectral hand? As far as the lich's CL it would only be at most a CL 26 since the template imparts a +4 level adjustment.

Do not do this!!

An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4x5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

Undead (Liches are undead yes?) respond to negative energy a lot different than living creatures. Casting any negative energy spell will make them giddy that you are healing them.

[Fax Celestis]

Keep in mind control undead is missing that pesky "won't commit suicide" clause.

No, seriously. Go check, and compare it to control plants and dominate monster.

[KingAtomsk]

Wait no where in the Lich or demilich templates does it say immune to necromancy effects so in order to reduce the amount of hit die of the lich and also to reduce saves, assuming I make the range touch attack, hit it with a fell drain ray of enervation (making it a 1d4+1 negative level hit) followed by the control undead spell like ability from the pale master for which can be administered using spectral hand? As far as the lich's CL it would only be at most a CL 26 since the template imparts a +4 level adjustment.

From the Demilich entry in the SRD
Undead Traits

Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals. Not at risk of death from massive dam-age, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised; resurrection works only if creature is willing.

[KingAtomsk]

...hit it with a fell drain ray of enervation (making it a 1d4+1 negative level hit)...

Fell Drain can only alter spells which deal damage to foes. Enervation does not deal damage. And, as has ben pointed out, trying to give negative levels to an undead creature is a bad idea.

[Zanos]

From the Demilich entry in the SRD
Undead Traits

Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals. Not at risk of death from massive dam-age, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised; resurrection works only if creature is willing.
Demilich is a 3.0 template, and needs to be updated to 3.5. The undead type in 3.5 doesn't provide blanket immunity to necromantic effects.