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cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 07:23 PM
What should a party in a no magic campaign look like.

I imagine that every one will be sword and board or some permutation with absurd AC since there will be no cleric to lean on after each combat. The party will particularly need a knight for crowd control and a rogue for the swissknifery.


Input will be awesome because we will be going into a no magic campaign in a few weeks.

Khantalas
2007-03-06, 07:25 PM
Get an ardent with the Life Mantle to do the healing. And a psion or wilder for other purposes.

That's what I do when I run or play in no magic campaigns.

cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 07:26 PM
Oh I forgot that it's also no-psionics.

Dhavaer
2007-03-06, 07:26 PM
I'd highly recommend d20 Modern for this. D&D simply isn't balanced for non-magic campaigns.

That said, everyone would be Fighters, Rogues or Barbarians. Probably Barbarians would be best.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-06, 07:27 PM
How about... a swordsage? :smallbiggrin:

Khantalas
2007-03-06, 07:29 PM
A mind-blind campaign just isn't fun. What will happen to all the mind flayers?

cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 07:31 PM
We have never included psionics in our games, since 1986. It simply does not exist for us. Mind flayers have spell like abilities.

Rei_Jin
2007-03-06, 07:31 PM
I'd highly recommend d20 Modern for this. D&D simply isn't balanced for non-magic campaigns.

I agree. I've got a friend who wants to do some historical re-enactment with roleplaying, and he was looking at using the standard D&D rules, but just cutting out all magic.

I very quickly persuaded him to use D20 Modern. Much, much better for low or no magic than anything else I've come across thus far.

Khantalas
2007-03-06, 07:34 PM
Then you should play d20 Past. Or better yet, d20 Apocalypse. With d20 Cyberscape elements.

D&D is not fun without psionics.

Orzel
2007-03-06, 07:35 PM
You'll end up with a party of Stand Still+Combat Reflexes Fighters/Barbarians and Archery/Shuriken Rogues and Monks.

Or play d20 Modern

Dhavaer
2007-03-06, 07:37 PM
Monks.

Wouldn't monks be barred, since most of their abilities are supernatural?

Dark_Wind
2007-03-06, 07:38 PM
This is what a party in a no magic campaign will look like:
______
[ ]
[ Here lies ]
[ Sword and ]
[ Board Ted ]
[ ]
[ We hardly ]
[ knew ye]
[ _________ ]

That's a gravestone, in case you couldn't tell. Repeat ad nauseum. As Dhavaer said, D&D isn't balanced for no-magic. Party survival at high levels depends on magic and magic items.

EDIT: The forum wrecked my horrible ASCII gravestone. Mneh. You get the point.

Orzel
2007-03-06, 07:40 PM
Wouldn't monks be barred, since most of their abilities are supernatural?


Depends on the DM
Some might allow them since they don't cast spells 'cept of abundant step.

cupkeyk
2007-03-06, 08:13 PM
To be accurate it's actually no spellcasting. You can take non-spell casting variants of the base classes. Most magic items are artitfacts of a forgotten time and are still present. SU's SP's and EX's are abound. Spellcasters are rare and far between, meant for NPC's.

Orzel
2007-03-06, 08:19 PM
To be accurate it's actually no spellcasting. You can take non-spell casting variants of the base classes. Most magic items are artitfacts of a forgotten time and are still present. SU's SP's and EX's are abound. Spellcasters are rare and far between, meant for NPC's.

So your party will be:
High Base AC Martial Class with Stand Still, Improved Trip, & Combat Reflexes
High Touch Ac Martial Class with Stand Still, Improved Trip, & Combat Reflexes
Full BAB Archery Ranger
2 Archer Rogues/Shuriken Monks

Dark_Wind
2007-03-06, 08:21 PM
To be accurate it's actually no spellcasting. You can take non-spell casting variants of the base classes. Most magic items are artitfacts of a forgotten time and are still present. SU's SP's and EX's are abound. Spellcasters are rare and far between, meant for NPC's.

Oh. Right then. Well, you aren't completely screwed, then, but it'll still be harder.

A lot of mid and higher CR monsters have abilities (dominate, ability damage/drain, negative levels, mummy rot, and petrification, to name just a few) that suddenly become all kinds of scary when you can't magic them away. So expect to end up cycling through a few characters.

Jasdoif
2007-03-06, 08:29 PM
Complete Warrior has a bunch of material in it about running or being in a low-magic or no-magic campaign, including a section in chapter 4 about "surviving in warrior campaign". Might be worth a look.

I'd personally look at a no-magic campaign as a perfect opportunity to play with the generic classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).

If that isn't an option, rogues will have the tons of skill points to work around what spells won't be available, and with limits on magic weaponry sneak attack could be very impressive on the damage front. And of course, anything from Tome of Battle should do well in combat.

Ethdred
2007-03-07, 06:19 AM
As someone who's running a no spellcasting campaign, I can say that it is a lot of fun (at least the party hasn't complained yet). The current party (it's a PBeM so there's been some attrition) is:

Human Ranger - archer type
Goblin Thief
Elf Fighter - archer type (though developing a cavalry side line)
Dwarf Fighter - two handed weapon
Halfling Barbarian - two handed weapon

The party has actually been pretty resilient (and lucky at times), and has often gone through more than the standard 4 encounters a day, 'cos there are no spellcasters whinging about needing 8 hours sleep a night. Strangely I haven't had any problems with monsters with abilities that need spell casters to counter them, because I simply haven't used them. I know this is a strange and bizarre concept for some people, but I've never felt I need to use every monster in every book.

Psionics - bleurgh!

Tormsskull
2007-03-07, 07:18 AM
We have never included psionics in our games, since 1986. It simply does not exist for us.

This quote sounds like it would have a hilarious story attached to it. "The Day Psionics Ruined Our D&D".



D&D is not fun without psionics.


Must...avoid...derailing....thread

Anyhow, to the OP:

Very low magic D&D can be a lot of fun, but no magic at all D&D is boring. As long as the DM scales the monsters/encounters to reflect the lack of spells/magic equipment that your group has access to, your party will be fine.

I'd suggest that a very low magic campaign works great with heavy RP, political type campaigns. Whodunnit situations are awesome to run without magic. Rather than someone saying "I cast Discover Plot" to solve the situation, the players will be able to make better use of diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate.

Good luck!

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-03-07, 08:35 AM
...snip...

D&D is not fun without psionics.

That is perhaps too sweeping a statement.

I've never played in a campaign or even a single game of D&D using psionics in my twenty four years of playing - and I've always had fun.

Meanwhile, back at the topic:

This archived thread on the WotC (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=397683&pp=30) forum has some great hints for redesigning d20 modern into a fantasy campaign.
I liked it so much, I saved the webpages.

Thiel
2007-03-07, 09:47 AM
I'll throw my vote in for D20 Modern.
Or if you can get your hands on it, Iron Heroes.

Jayabalard
2007-03-07, 10:07 AM
the party would look like:
-Fighter
-rogue
-Monk
-Barbarian

Since you want a "no spellcasting" campaign, you might consider allowing the following classes without their spells (but let them keep their magic-like class abilities), perhaps by giving them some bonus feats
-Ranger
-Paladin
-Bard

Since magical healing and restoration is not going to be available on every street corner, any creature with a significant supernatural attack (dominate, ability damage/drain, negative levels, mummy rot, and petrification, etc) is much more of a challenge in this sort of campaign because even if the heros win they are likely going to suffer some long term problems. Since there is not a lot of magic in this world, they should appear very rarely; when they do appear, you may want to either tone down some of their abilities or add a non-spell casting healing alternative.

If you're willing to branch out to other systems, then I'd recommend something like gurps; it's a point based system rather than a class/exp based system, so it's easier to balance with or without magic.


D&D is not fun with psionics.Fixed that for you. :wink:

Person_Man
2007-03-07, 10:26 AM
Wildshape is a Supernatural ability, so Druid or the Wildshape Ranger variant would still be pretty potent, if its allowed.

How are you going to deal with the healing issue without magic?

"OK guys, combat is over. Let's retreat from the dungeon and find a place in the woods to sleep for two weeks."

MaxKaladin
2007-03-07, 10:43 AM
This quote sounds like it would have a hilarious story attached to it. "The Day Psionics Ruined Our D&D".I don't know what happened to cupkeyk, but I had two campaigns absolutely ruined by psionics back in the 2nd edition era. I've pretty much avoided psionics like a plague since.

Anyway, on the original topic, I'd advise finding a different system. D&D is just too tied to magic. It might work if you're dealing with a campaign that's really only going to be fighting "mundane" opponents that also lack magic (and magic-like powers, and a lot of other special abilities that pretty much require magic to deal with).

It would also help to look at variant rules like defense rolls, VP/WP systems and stuff like that. D&D really depends on the idea that your HP are going to be ablated away in combat and restored by magic as a matter of course. Cutting out magic cuts magic healing and suddenly any fight can leave you laid up for weeks. It would help a lot to either use a system that makes it harder to get hit or makes it easier to heal naturally.

Oh, and there's actually a d20 game designed around low to no magic: Iron Heroes.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-03-07, 10:44 AM
Spiked chain fighters would rock so much.

Desaril
2007-03-07, 10:58 AM
I see a recurring theme that losing magic (and therefore magical healing) would ruin the game. As a DM,I have always hated magical healing and do whatever I can to prevent it. As a player, I only accept it when the party forces me to do so.

The easy access to magical healing means that combat does not cause injury, it merely causes you to uses spells/potions/scrolls or item charges. That's no fun. It merely displaces the unit of "health" from the HP to the spell list. In other words, it's not how many HP I have, but how many times I can heal. Once the party runs out of healing, that's when they go rest up.

I usually try to keep my PCs wounded and thinking about the cost of battle to their specific character. They should always think, "whew this is dangerous, I could die"

It also appears that a lot of posters expects your players to maximize their characters combat efficiency (the rogue, fighter, barbarian suggestions). I think the PC should choose skill based characters (rogue, ranger, druid, monk) since there won't be magic to help get stuff done. Any sensible GM will adjust the combat stuff to reflect the fact that there are no spellcasters or big heavy fighters.

Lastly, if deities still exist, clerics can still be useful. Perhaps they can't cast spells at will, but being the representitive of divinity on earth should be worth something. Perhaps they can channel uses of turning into spontaneous healing or something like that?

kellandros
2007-03-07, 11:08 AM
You know, everyone sort of assumes that you still have the highly magical monsters showing up in a no magic campaign. I'd sort of assume that if you don't get spellcasters, the DM won't be sending beholders at you in your next encounter...

Gryndle
2007-03-07, 11:22 AM
D&D is not fun without psionics.

I take exception to that. I'm in two seperate gaming groups, and neither group allows psionics at all. And yet we still manage to have fun.

So I'll counter your statement with this.

A narrow mind or narrow vieew is no fun at all.

Golthur
2007-03-07, 11:22 AM
You know, everyone sort of assumes that you still have the highly magical monsters showing up in a no magic campaign. I'd sort of assume that if you don't get spellcasters, the DM won't be sending beholders at you in your next encounter...

There's a scary world. The world run by beholders, where the PCs have no magic.

Eep. :eek:

Meat Shield
2007-03-07, 11:29 AM
If you really wanted to do something to wreck your DMs plans about not having healing, have someone play a Dragon Shaman with the vigor aura. Fast Healing will be your friend in a non-spellcasting campaign. Also, what about paladins and lay on hands?

BCOVertigo
2007-03-07, 11:31 AM
Mind flayers have spell like abilities.

Is one of them Blasphemy at will?

Hehe, jk. Personally I enjoy having many different ways to generate effects. I find the game more enjoyable when I don't know what it is I'm fighting and must figure it out on my own as opposed to knowing what it is via metagaming but having to withhold that knowledge and act ineffectively because my character couldn't know all that I know.

As for a physical only campaign, it could work, but as it has been said before you'll have a problem with healing. I'd suggest a variant HP system, nonmagical method of healing (lets call them medkits) or reduced difficulty and/or frequency of combat. Also you will need to watch carefully what monsters you implement, as well as the power level of the different aspect of combat. Armor and NA for example have very little disadvantage because you'll rarely (if ever) be faced with a touch AC. Things like Giants, who could be disabled any number of ways by a mage, can now soak up their full HP in damage before the fight is over. The longer it lasts the higher the risk of death for the PC's is.

Tormsskull
2007-03-07, 11:39 AM
If you really wanted to do something to wreck your DMs plans about not having healing...

That sort of sounds like the DM is forcing the poor players against their will to play in a no magic campaign that they have no desire in being in. I'm not sure about you, but if a DM asked me if I wanted to play in a campaign I had no interest in I'd say "No thanks."

serow
2007-03-07, 11:42 AM
I play in a magic-lite campaign with some friends (PCs are banned from having any spells higher than 3rd level, at least before level 15 or so) and so far it's been quite fun. DM willing to adjust for such a setting = as much fun as typical high-magic D&D.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-07, 11:43 AM
It would be more accurate to say that the party would look something like this:

Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade
Warblade
Warblade

ToB ftw!

In fact, it's arguable that some of the maneuvers beat magic full stop. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart for defense, White Raven for buffing, and Iron Heart + some other stuff for blasting.

Ashes
2007-03-07, 12:04 PM
Iron Heroes.

Nothing else needed. DnD does not do low/no-magic well. Iron Heroes is designed for it.

Person_Man
2007-03-07, 12:13 PM
I see a recurring theme that losing magic (and therefore magical healing) would ruin the game. As a DM,I have always hated magical healing and do whatever I can to prevent it. As a player, I only accept it when the party forces me to do so.

The easy access to magical healing means that combat does not cause injury, it merely causes you to uses spells/potions/scrolls or item charges. That's no fun. It merely displaces the unit of "health" from the HP to the spell list. In other words, it's not how many HP I have, but how many times I can heal. Once the party runs out of healing, that's when they go rest up.


If you want to roleplay the constant fear of death, play Call of Cthulhu. Or just refuse healing and worship Ilmater. But I wouldn't force the roleplaying experience you enjoy on your PC's, because I'm guessing they might not enjoy it.

Consider this - have you ever played a video game where your character had a health meter but didn't have a built in method of rapid healing (usually through power ups that you find or healing magic)? I haven't. Its because most game designers know that forcing a player to go back to town after every combat is boring. Even if you build in a teleport system and it only takes 5 minutes of real world time, its still repetitive and dull.

Most people want to see themselves as heroes who fight in combat, not constantly running away it, afraid of the consequences of being hit. Without healing, you are going to be spending large chunks of time forcing your PCs to constantly go back to town, or hide in the woods, or whatever, instead of combat, scouting, spying, solving puzzles, disarming traps, exploring new realms, etc.

Anyway, I respect anyone's desire to achieve better and more "realistic" roleplaying. But D&D is a game with floating globes with twelve eyeballs and three foot Gnomes who can make fire shoot from their hands using bat turds - there's nothing particularly realistic about it.

Khantalas
2007-03-07, 12:38 PM
Turned that into a wrong statement for you. :wink:

Yeah, how about my fix? :smalltongue:

Meat Shield
2007-03-07, 12:40 PM
I see a recurring theme that losing magic (and therefore magical healing) would ruin the game. *snip*

The easy access to magical healing means that combat does not cause injury, it merely causes you to uses spells/potions/scrolls or item charges. That's no fun. It merely displaces the unit of "health" from the HP to the spell list. In other words, it's not how many HP I have, but how many times I can heal. Once the party runs out of healing, that's when they go rest up.

*snip*

It also appears that a lot of posters expects your players to maximize their characters combat efficiency (the rogue, fighter, barbarian suggestions). I think the PC should choose skill based characters (rogue, ranger, druid, monk) since there won't be magic to help get stuff done. Any sensible GM will adjust the combat stuff to reflect the fact that there are no spellcasters or big heavy fighters.
*disclosure - Desaril is currently playing in the home campaign I am running

I have to agree with Desaril here - removing/limiting magical healing does not adversely affect the game if you are prepared for it. The campaign I am running has no cleric in the party. The only healing comes from a paladin or a dragon shaman with the vigor aura. The have some healing potions, but I don't think they have used them yet. Careful use of the lay on hands has carried them beautifully, as well as quick kills against their adversaries.

Also, as DM I do have to plan for there not being a cleric (or real wizard for that matter) - I have adjusted the bad guys to be similar to them in that only a few have been clerics or wizards.

The world itself is not less magical/spellcasting, but the party is, you just have to plan for it. I think the campaign has worked better than I originally planned (I am still new at DMing), but keeping your players strengths and weaknesses in mind when designing encounters is paramount to a good DM.

Tengu
2007-03-07, 12:57 PM
To start offtopically (is that even a word?), I'm on the "psionics is cool" side of the fence.


Also, as DM I do have to plan for there not being a cleric (or real wizard for that matter) - I have adjusted the bad guys to be similar to them in that only a few have been clerics or wizards.
The problem might be that, while the bad guys are usually dispensable, the players after most encounters will have wounds, which might be different to get rid of if there's no healer in the party. And as mentioned before, resting 2 weeks between every encounter is not really heroic.



keeping your players strengths and weaknesses in mind when designing encounters is paramount to a good DM.
I agree.

Desaril
2007-03-07, 03:44 PM
@ PersonMan- I don't want to play Cthulu, but I want to roleplay. I want to get inside my character's head and feel like he feels. I want to be worried about the guy with a sword swinging at me. It's hard enough when I know the sword only does 1d8 damage and I have 30 HP, but if I can get healed right after, why bother with defense at all. It really doesn't create suspense if you know that you can get easy healing. You take risks on the basis that "as long as I don't go below -10, I'll be OK."

Also, the healing does eventually run out and then the PCs have to go back to town and rest anyway. If it doesn't the PCs are immortal, if it does, it just delays the inevitable. Why not cut out the middleman and give the PCs more HP from the start and get rid of healing.

My concern is that there is no "fear" for the PCs. They should be concerned about their characters' lives like the characters are. If you know you will only heal your Level in HP/day you'll have a healthier respect for combat.
If magical healing is available, the only fear is that the GM will kill your character (usually by mistake). And nothing slows down a campaign like the death of a PC. Instead allow for down time in the game where the PCs can heal.

If you want to create suspense in a low healing environment, inflict ability damage, subdual damage or wreck the PCs equipment. If there are no consequences for combat, why be afraid.

cupkeyk
2007-03-07, 03:49 PM
We grew up on the Dragonlance books and some of the Forgotten Realms , the Gord the Rogue books and Mka-Oba greyhawk books. Dragonlance doesn't seem to have psionics at all while Forgotten realms barely has it, save for a few and we don't read those books because they seem badly written. Neither Gord nor Mika-Oba ever encountered psionics. We play an FR setting so we assume that there might be psionics somewhere out there just not here with us. We are inspired by the old TSR novels and nothing has so far inspired us to incorporate psionics.

Plus psionics have really bizarre names that are ugly. We don't support bad nomenclature.

We have played an Eberron Campaign that had psionics in but nobody wanted to play psionics because we perceived it as basically like a mana system sorceror and nobody plays a sorceror because they are basically gimped wizards.

As for healing, doesn't everybody else find it bizarre that offense has become the main defense? Kill them as fast as you can without minding that you get hurt along the way. Minimizing healing makes sword and board builds more viable, monks actually playable. Healing spells as well as resurrection, raise dead and the like have been placed in Necromancy and have the evil descriptor. They are now unnatural and defy the natural order of life and death. Nature heals by resting and letting your body mend itself. Now, not getting hurt is necessary.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-07, 03:59 PM
In a land of no magic D&D, the rogue is king.

What's going to detect him sneaking around? Who's going to see through his clever disguises and bluffs? The player needs to be smart about it all, but this is like a rogue playground.

Kantolin
2007-03-07, 04:05 PM
What's going to detect him sneaking around? Who's going to see through his clever disguises and bluffs?
The Ranger?

cupkeyk
2007-03-07, 04:08 PM
Plus... Just to add. Gord's party had no cleric. Mika-Oba's party had no cleric. That tribe girl in Companions, she sorta sucked as a cleric and couldn't cast spells at all for a good third of the novels. Adon couldn't cast spells throughout the Avatar Trilogy. Heroes are more heroic if they are all hurt and bleeding BUT smart and creative and brave. Like, you know DIE HARD Bruce Willis Or Leon the Professional Jean (I-can't-spell-his-name), or even Cameron Diaz in Charlie's Angels Full Throttle with her gut cut open. That's what heroes are made off.

Meat Shield
2007-03-07, 04:11 PM
Did you just call one of Charlie's Angels a hero? My heart weeps for your example finding skills.

I mean, I could understand Kate Jackson or Jaclyn Smith, but one of the new Angels?

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-07, 04:12 PM
A mind-blind campaign just isn't fun. What will happen to all the mind flayers?

They wouldn't exist in the first place?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-07, 04:15 PM
The ranger'd be the best for finding the rogue, yeah. But he'd still be at a disadvantage, both because of the lower skillpoints and because, uniquely to this setting, wisdom is next-to-worthless for the ranger, so he likely won't have it very high compared to a rogue with dexterity.

BCOVertigo
2007-03-07, 04:39 PM
We grew up on the Dragonlance books and some of the Forgotten Realms , the Gord the Rogue books and Mka-Oba greyhawk books. Dragonlance doesn't seem to have psionics at all while Forgotten realms barely has it, save for a few and we don't read those books because they seem badly written. Neither Gord nor Mika-Oba ever encountered psionics. We play an FR setting so we assume that there might be psionics somewhere out there just not here with us. We are inspired by the old TSR novels and nothing has so far inspired us to incorporate psionics.

Kay.


Plus psionics have really bizarre names that are ugly. We don't support bad nomenclature.

Incantatrix? Factotum? Oneiromancy?? Sure you do.


We have played an Eberron Campaign that had psionics in but nobody wanted to play psionics because we perceived it as basically like a mana system sorceror and nobody plays a sorceror because they are basically gimped wizards.

So you avoid a system because two misconceptions stack into a worse one?


As for healing, doesn't everybody else find it bizarre that offense has become the main defense? Kill them as fast as you can without minding that you get hurt along the way. Minimizing healing makes sword and board builds more viable, monks actually playable. Healing spells as well as resurrection, raise dead and the like have been placed in Necromancy and have the evil descriptor. They are now unnatural and defy the natural order of life and death. Nature heals by resting and letting your body mend itself. Now, not getting hurt is necessary.

Killing them before they kill you isn't strange, it's how fighting in real life works.

cupkeyk
2007-03-07, 05:01 PM
Jaclyn Smith or Kate Jackson were never severely maimed. At least Fara Fawcett's character died. They never actually got actually dirty. They were like Gaylogas and always perfectly clean. At most Kate Jackson's heart gets broken cause she tends to fall for the bad guys.


So you avoid a system because two misconceptions stack into a worse one?I doubt anyone would agree with you that sorcs aren't just gimped wizards. They lost the Core spellcasting poll you know, bards got more votes. Now that is just sad for sorcs everywhere.

As for the nomenclature, I am just peeved by the psuedoscientific approach to naming like Psychoportation or Hypercognition. At least magic tries to be archaic Latin and not new age Hollywoood wholistic fitness-like.


Killing them before they kill you isn't strange, it's how fighting in real life works.

I thought fighting in real life involved long range attacks against guys who can't actually fight back, legislature and economic hegemony. Voluntarily getting hurt because you know a guy can patch you up is bizarre.

Desaril
2007-03-07, 11:32 PM
"Voluntarily getting hurt because you know a guy can patch you up is bizarre"

Exactly!!! And unfortunately, magical healing promotes this type of mentality/play. If you knew that any damage you sustained would be around for a while, you would be more wary of combat.

Ethdred
2007-03-08, 10:00 AM
"Voluntarily getting hurt because you know a guy can patch you up is bizarre"

Exactly!!! And unfortunately, magical healing promotes this type of mentality/play. If you knew that any damage you sustained would be around for a while, you would be more wary of combat.

Hey, bones heal and chicks dig scars :)

Seriously, I don't follow this argument that lack of healing makes you more wary of combat - you have to do it anyway, you are just using up a different resource. Either, you get into combat and rest to heal, or you get into combat and rest to get back healing spells. Given the advocates of the no-healing approach say they allow down time to recover, it wouldn't make much difference in real time - what's the difference between saying "You cast healing spells and are now up to full HP. Onto the next encounter." and "You go back to town, rest for two weeks and are now up to full HP. Onto the next encounter."

Also, if you think you need a lack of healing in order to be scared by combat, you ought to play with my DM. We use 1p and 2p coins for monsters, and there's just something about the way he'll grab a large handful and start placing them on the battle map that can be really menacing.

cupkeyk
2007-03-08, 10:12 AM
Hey, bones heal and chicks dig scars :)

Seriously, I don't follow this argument that lack of healing makes you more wary of combat - you have to do it anyway, you are just using up a different resource. Either, you get into combat and rest to heal, or you get into combat and rest to get back healing spells. Given the advocates of the no-healing approach say they allow down time to recover, it wouldn't make much difference in real time - what's the difference between saying "You cast healing spells and are now up to full HP. Onto the next encounter." and "You go back to town, rest for two weeks and are now up to full HP. Onto the next encounter."

Also, if you think you need a lack of healing in order to be scared by combat, you ought to play with my DM. We use 1p and 2p coins for monsters, and there's just something about the way he'll grab a large handful and start placing them on the battle map that can be really menacing.

Because many campaigns have time constraints that cannot be met if you keep resting.

Ethdred
2007-03-08, 10:56 AM
Because many campaigns have time constraints that cannot be met if you keep resting.

Yes, and your point is? If the DM has put an unrealistic time constraint on the party then he's a bad DM, so he has to ensure the timetable is achievable if challenging. So if you have healing available he can do timetables measured in hours, or even minutes; if you don't then he has to measure it in days or weeks.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-08, 11:05 AM
Because many campaigns have time constraints that cannot be met if you keep resting.

And many adventures will lead you into places where you might not be able to rest safely.

The guy who DMs one of the games I'm in seems to have mastered the art of tracking when the entire party is running on fumes (both in terms of HP and spells) before he allows us to limp/crawl into some secure hidey-hole where we can stay for 8 hours plus stint on watch.
Then the healers divvy out their magic and be cautiously creep back out into the monster-infested wilderness, only today we're all on half hit points (except the rogue) and have used our healing magic for today... It's sort of a downward spiral as the adventure continues and the party gets for desperate and afraid until they accomplish their goal and successfully retreat to civilisation. It's actually very interesting

(Of course, now the group has a Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor with twinked out maximise healing nonsense, so it's playing out a little differently now)

rollfrenzy
2007-03-08, 11:33 AM
And many adventures will lead you into places where you might not be able to rest safely.

The guy who DMs one of the games I'm in seems to have mastered the art of tracking when the entire party is running on fumes (both in terms of HP and spells) before he allows us to limp/crawl into some secure hidey-hole where we can stay for 8 hours plus stint on watch.
Then the healers divvy out their magic and be cautiously creep back out into the monster-infested wilderness, only today we're all on half hit points (except the rogue) and have used our healing magic for today... It's sort of a downward spiral as the adventure continues and the party gets for desperate and afraid until they accomplish their goal and successfully retreat to civilisation. It's actually very interesting

(Of course, now the group has a Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor with twinked out maximise healing nonsense, so it's playing out a little differently now)


You seem to have an exceptional Dm. In the group I play with, The Pc's consider themselves Immortal (one 5th level ranger attacked the Dragonking from Dark Sun). Our Dm's have been WAY too lenient. We are starting a low magic/healing campaign now, and I am looking forward to it.

Ps. add me to the Psionics Suck side. They just don't fit into classic fantasy IMHO.

PnP Fan
2007-03-08, 02:11 PM
hmmm . ...low magic campaigns. . .oh yeah, there was that lord of the rings thing, where the god-like powered wizard hardly cast any spells at all throughout the entire story. As I recall from the movie, it was quite exciting, and there was no cleric to keep everyone up and walking. You might consider using the LotR rpg to model your campaign instead of D&D. Of course, LotR includes lots of down time between scenes to heal up. The amount of traveling that goes on during that story is tremendous. Alternately, if you decide to stick with D&D, I think you'll probably be okay, but you might want to stick to encounters that are one or 2 CR levels lower than your party level, and the DM should account for lack of magic (which I'm sure he will). I would push for the non-spellcasting variants of the Ranger and Paladin as well (Complete Warrior I think), just to provide variety in the party, same with Monk's special abilities. Also, some of the alternate fighter types would be good (swashbuckler, samurai, etc. . .). And if magic exists, just no spellcasting classes, I'd look at getting into classes like Kensai quickly. Other low magic games include a number of mechanics to simulate more or less hardy characters (Game of Thrones is very realistic[for d20], including shock factor from weapon damage), There is also a system for armor providing DR in the Unearthed Arcana. I've looked through Iron Heroes, it's got some good stuff in it, and is specifically for low magic games, though it adds some paperwork to combat (tracking maneuver tokens.. .).
I think there are lots of options out there that can provide a game that is as fun as any other game with/without magic/psionics whatever.
As far as what the party looks liek...I'm sensing characters that:
a. Have to be defined beyond their fighting style, in order to differentiate them more.
b. some multiclassing, particularly with rogue and X class and fighter and x class
c. plan more, and do more intelligence gathering prior to combat.

Matthew
2007-03-08, 02:59 PM
Nobody mentioned Conan D20? Disgraceful. That is a D20 Fantasy RPG that is worth a look at if you are wanting to run a campaign with greatly reduced magic.

Redwizard26
2007-03-08, 03:27 PM
...snip...
The easy access to magical healing means that combat does not cause injury, it merely causes you to uses spells/potions/scrolls or item charges. That's no fun. It merely displaces the unit of "health" from the HP to the spell list. In other words, it's not how many HP I have, but how many times I can heal. Once the party runs out of healing, that's when they go rest up.
...snip...

The reason that Magical healing is so important is that with out it, it takes Weeks to heal. If your DM says that you refill your HP overnight thats great for you but its not that way as per RAW.

Natural Healing

With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.
If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.
so a barbarian with average hit points and 16 CON takes nine days to heal naturally. if the plot your DM gives you can wait nine days of resting between above average encounters go ahead but my plots evolve a little more quickly. Heck if you fight 1 encounter per day of equal CR it should take 1/5 of party resources to handle which means to heal from one encounter (where due to abstraction the barbarian may have not even been hit) it would take 9X(1/5) =1.8 days of rest between encounters. using the Vitality point/Wound Point system solves this but with out house rules it would take forever in game to do anything. let alone if you have classes that allow you to exchange sneak attack damage for Ablility damage (As per RAW it takes one day per point damaged to return).

Lemur
2007-03-08, 03:58 PM
Every campaign setting I've seen that has low/no magic gives the classes some kind of defense bonus to armor class. Even with magic armor and other magic bonuses to AC, tank warriors will still take heavy damage in close combat in standard D&D.

However, this is assuming Monster Manual baddies are attacking you. If no magic also means no, or extremely rare monsters, like wraiths, basilisks, and bearded devils, then you'll be better off. To quote Jackie Chan Adventures, "Magic must defeat Magic". I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to go dragon hunting on a regular basis without a respectable amount of magic backing them up. Maybe dragon hunting once in a lifetime, but definitely not as par for the course.

If it's just humanoids, animals, maybe some giants and bizarre creatures with only mundane powers, like owlbears, then I'd call it fair. For mechanics, I'd favor giving each class an appropriate defense bonus, and making armor grant DR instead of AC bonuses. This way you can have quick fighters, who are built to have high armor classes, and armored fighters, who probably don't have as high a defense, but have a degree of damage protection. If you want to make "sword and board" fighters, as you call them, more viable, then switch back to 3.0 power attack (1 for 1 basis, regardless of one or two hands).

Lord Tataraus
2007-03-08, 04:01 PM
I am about to start my own low-magic (which is about the same as your no-magic) and here are some variants that you might consider:

-- multiple levels of masterwork (1-5), its basically adds masterwork benefits once more per level and the cost is equal to the number of masterwork put on (+5 to hit on a non-magical weapon is awesome! And the +1500gp price tag is a big bonus) Unfortunately I don't remember the book it was in but I think its one of the Dragonlance campaign settings.
-- Armor as DR in Unearthed Arcana is amazingly helpful in reducing damage taken in battle.
-- Alchemy (a.k.a. potion-making) avaliable and non-magical. In my campaign there is a certain oil that has curative properties and is made into varying strength healing potions (WARNING: Consuming highly concentrated cure potions may cause death!). I also have the added flavor that if a low level PC drinks a high level cure potion he makes a fort save or die (or at least bedridden for a couple of days). Additionally, there are various adrenaline potions on the market that are basically potions of Bull's Strength, Haste, etc.

And to those who care, psionics rule!!!

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-08, 04:53 PM
Another thing you could do is force all magic to be in the form of a ritual. All spells have an extra casting time of 1 minute per spell level/number of people taking part in the ritual (cantips just a standard action or maybe two full-round actions if your stingy). If a caster taking part in a ritual thats beyond his level, he has to roll a caster level check (ala reading a scroll) to engage in the ritual (if he fails, the damage backfire happens slowly and subtly until the wizard breaks his concentration from exhaustion and internal, invisible damage. Its very suspensful if the first time you do this in the campaign the damage is high enough to kill a ritualist. Just make sure its an NPC.) Doing this means that players can still be buffed/healed but Evocations, Fear spells, and certain illusions become meaningless except when beseiging a city or stronghold. Give a longer duration for spell effects, too, particularly summoned monsters, because they need to stick around longer just because of the longer casting time. (although this does entail the possibility of a Summon Monster resturant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36797)). Also a wider area of effect for divinations and stat-boosting transmutations like bull's strength or magic weapon. Triple the effect of the Extend Spell and Enlarge spell feats.

Also Ban the Quickened spell feat and Sorcerers (or say that they are a very rare demi-god like individual that are literally the son or daughter of a demon or dragon or god or something, and when the party does meet a sorc, he is just like a regular Fireball factory from a high-magic D&D game!) and allow a cleric's spontaneous casting to be a standard action as normal (actually, why not have clerics only cast domain spells as spontaneous, therefore requiring the group healer to actually take the healing domain and making clerics of different gods somewhat different, but all seem powerful?)

Make all the Bard's rituals songs. (think about, a bardic ritual team in a modern setting could be a rock band! With the lead singer taking care of all the verbal components AKA the lyrics with her microphone while the other members just play their instruments as the somatic components!)

This makes the game seem more magical (and giving Rangers a semi-good reason to invest in wisdom) while encouraging an all warrior-party. Magic is a lot more scholarly or religious and a lot less of a weapon, making fighters feel a little more useful (the Rogue will kick ass but unlike said Rogue, the fighter can actually challenge the Barbarian to a duel and hope to win). Also say that magic items are created in by ritual, and those rituals are as expensive or as cheap as you want to match the desired level of rarity. Also make sure that powerful monsters' rarity = to magic item rarity.

Thrawn183
2007-03-08, 11:47 PM
There's a scary world. The world run by beholders, where the PCs have no magic.

Eep. :eek:

How do you think the world came to be run by beholders?

Desaril
2007-03-09, 12:11 AM
I think Hewhosaysfish' DM runs the game well considering the problem of easy healing. There is an eventual loss of HP because the parties take more than they can heal and it slowly trickles down. The net effect is that the PCs have more HP and the party continues to adventure until the healing runs out.

@ red wizard- I never said that healing is any faster than the RAW. I accept that PCs can only gain a few HP/day. However, they shouldn't lose a bunch of HP every fight. Instead of almost dying each battle and then getting healed, I propose that PCs only lose a few HP, and they can't get them back very quickly. But the possibility of getting killed (or seriously wounded) is greater. At some point, the PCs drop into single digit HP and they begin to fear for their lives the same way the character would be worried. If the cleric can just bump them back up, it's no big deal.

@ ethred- I think you're exactly right. The resource which measures health in a typical D&D game is HP plus healing. I am merely recommending that eliminating easy access to healing will make combat have a lasting effect, becuase the PCs will "carry" the effects of combat (less HP) into the next combat. It makes it feel more real.

@PNP- Although I don't really like LOTR as a good analogy for D&D, it is definitely part of the source genre and your point is valid. It is quite possible to run a campaign in which the heroes do not have ready access to healing. In fact, the necessity for healing fueled one of the series' dramatic sequences- Frodo's run from Weathertop to Elrond's being chased by the Nine. The need for healing can drive the PCs through the story. It happens all the time when the PCs get hit with something they don't have the easy cure for (petrification, magical diseases, death).

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-09, 03:25 AM
I think Hewhosaysfish' DM runs the game well considering the problem of easy healing. There is an eventual loss of HP because the parties take more than they can heal and it slowly trickles down. The net effect is that the PCs have more HP and the party continues to adventure until the healing runs out.

@ red wizard- I never said that healing is any faster than the RAW. I accept that PCs can only gain a few HP/day. However, they shouldn't lose a bunch of HP every fight. Instead of almost dying each battle and then getting healed, I propose that PCs only lose a few HP, and they can't get them back very quickly. But the possibility of getting killed (or seriously wounded) is greater. At some point, the PCs drop into single digit HP and they begin to fear for their lives the same way the character would be worried. If the cleric can just bump them back up, it's no big deal.

@ ethred- I think you're exactly right. The resource which measures health in a typical D&D game is HP plus healing. I am merely recommending that eliminating easy access to healing will make combat have a lasting effect, becuase the PCs will "carry" the effects of combat (less HP) into the next combat. It makes it feel more real.

@PNP- Although I don't really like LOTR as a good analogy for D&D, it is definitely part of the source genre and your point is valid. It is quite possible to run a campaign in which the heroes do not have ready access to healing. In fact, the necessity for healing fueled one of the series' dramatic sequences- Frodo's run from Weathertop to Elrond's being chased by the Nine. The need for healing can drive the PCs through the story. It happens all the time when the PCs get hit with something they don't have the easy cure for (petrification, magical diseases, death).

Funny. Another thing you could do is have healing spells have no limit, but each healing spell impose a penalty on maximum hit points. The inverse of temporary hit points, if you will. You could also do this with all magic; namely give the casters infinite uses, but have inhierent counter-productive side effects that cause you to use them less and less as time goes on. For instance:

open the spoiler to view my new funky rules.

Preparing spells: As usual, but you don't have to have more than one spell prepared for the day because you have (with strings attached) unlimited uses of those spells. Bards and Sorcerers automatically count as having prepared all their spells (but as usual, they don't have many spells to choose from.)

Healing: I mentioned the temporary hp drain. They heal at twice the rate of normal hit points with natural healing, but you will generally still be suffering a net loss of hp as time goes on.

Restoration: These spells simply get less effective over time. You need to pray at dawn or dusk and prepare the Restoration spells again.

Vampiric touch: Well, it is a touch spell....

Animating Dead/Ressurecting: As usual. Just where in the world are you going to get all though diamonds? Black ones specifically for the undead.

Direct damage/Death: Does damage from feedback, useful as last-ditch attacks versus enemies you must kill no matter the cost. Basically, its counter-productive because you usually use attack/Save-or-Die spells to quickly dispatch enemies before they injure someone and cost the cleric healing spells.

Glibness, Suggestion, Charm or Dominateperson : Steadily increase DCs for each lie/command/friendly suggestion. Have it not work on anyone who knows you have such spells.

Anything that boosts abilities: Have the player take ability damage after each casting.

Divination: The Divinations tip off enemies that you cast a divination that affects/endangers them or their plans.

Summoning: Require some kind of contract with the summoned creature, including payment (of something that the creature values. If its just a Nature's Ally, the animal will want food, and you only have so much food...) per summon.

Illusions: Actually, these are pretty easy to deal with as they are. But never let an NPC fall for the same illusion twice! As long as the PC is being creative and spontaneous, it'll work.

Invisibility/See Invisibility/anything that affects the eyes: Rule that invisibility simply causes light to pass through you, and you get a special eye inhancement so you can still see even without light reflecting off your rods and cones. Fatigue the caster with repeated use, and give him a steadily increasing load that uses his wisdom score instead of his strength to determine his maximum load and cause him to suffer from a heavy "wisdom" load.

Protection/DR spells: The targets skin is particularly delicate once the the spell ends, therefore imposing, yep you guessed it, another penalty that partially mirrors the spell effect and can only be reversed with time and/or money. In this case, a soothing balm.

Mind blank and other protections from mental scores: Mental fatigue leaves the mind suffering -2 to Intelligence and Wisdom. -6 from Mental exhaustion. Burnout from over-protecting your mind is a b**ch.

Time magic: Haste and Slow spells cause time to "catch up" right after the duration is up, therefore causing previously Slowed Enemies to be Hasted and vice versa for your Hasted Allies.

Dispel magic: As normal. You might rule that if the player fails his roll, the effect simply CANNOT be dispelled.

Antimagic: The Mage temporary loses his powers for manipulating something thats fundamentally disruptive to magic.

Polymorphing: Consider removing it from your game. Particularly polymorph any object. Really, do it.

Save-or-suck: The mage takes a little bit of the penalty with him. Sooner or later the party will have to stop so the ailing mage can rest to recover his stats.

Battlefield control like grease and solid fog: Either give them a concentration duration, or a long casting time, or both. With a Concentration duration, the wizard can't do anything but focus on the spell and hope the fighter don't let anyone through. As a long drawn-out ritual (Increase AOE just for good measure), it requires proper timing. If you set it up before the battle, the enemy will not engage, so this results in a world where the mage who gets the Stinking Cloud up (or, and this is a highly specialized tactic, the giant grease pool is conjured just in time for the warriors to toss thier grappling hooks at the ceiling/nearby trees and drop their Alchemist's fire) wins the day. I prefer the concentration option if I feel like creating world balance. I'd use the ritual option for dramatic flavor.

Fly/Feather fall/Air walk: These forms of powerless flight have to get their energy from somewhere, right? You feel starved after the excitement's over and need to eat a little more food than usual.

Walls (wind wall, wall of stone, wall of force, etc.): The exception to the rule, you can only use these once per day, but you can prepare multiple castings.

Water breathing and other unthreatening utility spells: No penalty. Just make sure you've prepared them.

Rope Trick and Resting in general: Apply time constraints. Tell your PCs that in this campaign, they will have to decide carefully whether to push on ahead or scrap the mission when their resources are running out. You should still let them stop to eat and sleep when they've marched and fought all day unless they really, really have to get to X location by X time tonight! If nothing else, the monsters will logically plan to ambush the players sleeping in the rope portal.

Now, I don't think these rules particually handy-capping the mage. They are a compromise bewteen reasonable time constraints and healing magic that can be distributed to which ever party member needs it. (Giving the PCs more hit points hurts the guy who takes all the damage from a turn of bad luck). You might lighten up on some spell types and give them no penalty at all, but if you want such a feeling, this is system results in a feeling of deay while still giving the casters a feeling of importance.