Magic Jar: Breaking it for Fun and Profit

[Chester]

3.5 edition.

My Dread Necromancer just hit level 10!

When I mentioned that Magic Jar has become available, a few members of my group muttered that the spell looks good on paper but really isn't that useful. :smallannoyed:

I disagree with this. However, does anyone have any fun ideas that can abuse the spell? I mean besides the obvious uses?

(FYI: My quasit familiar will carry the "jar" for me and remain invisible while I go soul searching.)

[KingAtomsk]

A past Dread Necro character of mind used Magic Jar to possess the body of a prominent city-ruler, then began levying huge amounts of taxes and implemented harsh punishments for not paying them. He had the church of lawful good clerics become the tax collectors to lower the citizens' opinions of them, and was generally a **** to make it seem like the ruler had become evil. Then I convinced the rest of my party that we had to kill him to save the city. The goal was to get the Paladin to kill him so he would fall for having killed an innocent man. Didn't quite work out though. So close.

[Darrin]

Courtesy of Doc Roc:

I have brought you... Devastation. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?200516)

[Necroticplague]

Courtesy of Doc Roc:

I have brought you... Devastation. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?200516)

I don't think that works. After all, balors, as non-native outsiders, don't have a body-soul duality, their body is their soul. So using Magic Jar results in you cramming yourself into their body, then both of you getting crammed into the jar. Not a very comfortable position.

[Psyren]

Plus, even if you say the balor can be separated from its soul somehow - if you cast jar again, you repeat the entire sequence, which begins by putting you back in the jar and leaving your body (i.e. the balor) lifeless. This will force the balor's soul out of the jar - either it will return to its body, rendering the sequence pointless, or it will die, triggering death throes instantly.

Other outsiders will do the same (albeit less dramatically) - either they return to their original bodies, or they die and turn to vapor.

[Segev]

As a Dread Necromancer, you should have a small horde of minions following you around. Magic Jar into a skeleton and pretend you're a lich that can recover VERY FAST, as when the skeleton is destroyed, you hop into a different one.

Have a Ring Gate that your familiar carrying the Jar is also holding on to. Keep the other one near your body. Now you're not out of range of your body when the spell ends.

Magic Jar also interacts strangely with Chain Spell. It specifies that it targets "one creature," but it's unclear whether the target is the victim or, well, you. Except that you're the only valid target to start by being put in the jar. There are two possible interpretations: "you" are not necessarily the sole valid person, so you could cast it on somebody else to put them in the Jar and let them take over other people; or the target is the person you're taking over.

The first option would mean Chain Spell would let you have your CL worth of your friends join you in the Jar, and each of you can hop out to possess others. Interesting way to have your Quasit let you infiltrate a secure locale...

The second option would mean that Chain Spell would let you, from your Jar, target your CL+1 beings with your possession, forcing all who fail their saves into your Jar while you possess each of their bodies simultaneously. The action multiplication alone is staggering. Note that all save one of the targets would have an effective +4 to their Will save. But you could, again, possess minions who don't have a choice but to willingly fail their saves, because you order them to.

Of course, your DM could also just say "no, this is too complicated for me to want to figure out, so no Chaining that spell." So this isn't practical optimization, most likely.


It's also noteworthy that Magic Jar works just fine with the custom magic item rules. Create a permanent item of it and shove your soul into it indefinitely. As long as it's not destroyed, proximity to your real body is irrelevant.

[Darrin]

I don't think that works. After all, balors, as non-native outsiders, don't have a body-soul duality, their body is their soul.

Balor is just the example Doc Roc used. Shadesteel golems I think are the preferred "wizard about town" corporeal shell nowadays.


Plus, even if you say the balor can be separated from its soul somehow - if you cast jar again, you repeat the entire sequence, which begins by putting you back in the jar and leaving your body (i.e. the balor) lifeless. This will force the balor's soul out of the jar - either it will return to its body, rendering the sequence pointless, or it will die, triggering death throes instantly.


My understanding was there are two jars. The first jar is broken when you're outside the balor. The RAW of the spell only has text for two possible conditions: inside the host body or inside your original body. Since you're not in either, the spell ends and you stay where you are, in the second body. You then return to the body that was "yours" when you cast the second magic jar spell: the balor, shadesteel golem, or whatever corporeal creature you wanted to permanently bodyjack.

[Piggy Knowles]

Magic jar can be used as a totally permanent kill solution. Use magic jar to transfer someone's soul to the gem receptacle, then use the soul as an optional material component when casting a spell or in lieu of a small amount of XP when crafting an item, as per BoVD. The soul is permanently and irrevocably destroyed in the process - no, your enemies can't rez him to pester you again later, his soul doesn't exist anymore.

[Segev]

My understanding was there are two jars. The first jar is broken when you're outside the balor. The RAW of the spell only has text for two possible conditions: inside the host body or inside your original body. Since you're not in either, the spell ends and you stay where you are, in the second body. You then return to the body that was "yours" when you cast the second magic jar spell: the balor, shadesteel golem, or whatever corporeal creature you wanted to permanently bodyjack.

The wording of the spell says "a" host. So even if you hopped from Balor to, say, Pit Fiend, if you're in a host (the Pit Fiend), the clauses still trigger for being in a host. Even if it wasn't the one the Jar you destroyed was originally targeting.

However, there's still a useful loophole; you just need a minion around to help. If you're in a Jar other than the one being destroyed, you are neither in "the" jar nor "a" host. You stay where you are as the original spell ends.

Now, the tricky bit is whether you die when the new spell ends or not, because the new spell is still Magic Jar, which says that, if "your" body isn't available, you die. The question is whether "your" body is defined as the one you had initially, or references specifically the body you were wearing when you cast the spell.

[Psyren]

My understanding was there are two jars. The first jar is broken when you're outside the balor. The RAW of the spell only has text for two possible conditions: inside the host body or inside your original body. Since you're not in either, the spell ends and you stay where you are, in the second body. You then return to the body that was "yours" when you cast the second magic jar spell: the balor, shadesteel golem, or whatever corporeal creature you wanted to permanently bodyjack.

How do you get "outside the balor" without casting the spell again or returning it to its body?

And again, this assuming that an outsider's soul can be separated from its body; despite the spell's target line being so general, it seems to me that some creatures (e.g. incorporeal undead and outsiders) would present logistical difficulties concerning the state of their souls.

EDIT to above: You cannot hop from host to host directly - you must return to the jar each time, either using the existing spell or by casting it again.

[Segev]

How do you get "outside the balor" without casting the spell again or returning it to its body?

(...)

EDIT to above: You cannot hop from host to host directly - you must return to the jar each time, either using the existing spell or by casting it again.

If you have a second focus, you can hop out of the Balor (or whatever) and into the second focus, leaving the original owner of the body you just vacated in the first focus.

[Psyren]

If you have a second focus, you can hop out of the Balor (or whatever) and into the second focus, leaving the original owner of the body you just vacated in the first focus.

It says you can shift to THE magic jar, i.e. the one you started with. Nothing allows you to designate a second gem as the magic jar.

[Barstro]

3.5 edition.

My Dread Necromancer just hit level 10!

When I mentioned that Magic Jar has become available, a few members of my group muttered that the spell looks good on paper but really isn't that useful. :smallannoyed:

I disagree with this. However, does anyone have any fun ideas that can abuse the spell? I mean besides the obvious uses?

(FYI: My quasit familiar will carry the "jar" for me and remain invisible while I go soul searching.)

I guess you first need to let us know what the "obvious uses" are.
KingAtomsk's idea is perfect for when you have a lot of downtime. But sucks when the person you are taking over makes their save that day.

I used it to take over a guard in an area we could not infiltrate. "He" convinced others to open the gate so they could attack us. Then I attacked the other guards when they ran by. Whenever the host died, she'd just take over another guard and keep up the slaughter. Great fun for a PC that never gets to enter melee. I consider that spell so powerful that I haven't used it since.

[Segev]

It says you can shift to THE magic jar, i.e. the one you started with. Nothing allows you to designate a second gem as the magic jar.

You're casting the spell a second time.

Here, let me try to lay it out, as I suspect we're operating under different mental scenarios:

Step 1: Acquire 2 100 gp gems. Say a ruby and a sapphire.
Step 2: Cast Magic Jar, using the ruby as the focus.
Step 3: While in Gem A, possess Jimbob Balor (who is actually a humanoid with an unfortunate last name, so we avoid the question of outsider body/soul separation).
Step 4: While in Jimbob's body, cast Magic Jar a second time, using the sapphire as the focus.

You are now in the sapphire, and Jimbob is in the ruby. Jimbob's body and your body are both insensate meatbags.

Step 4: Have your helpful Quasit familiar destroy the ruby. This ends the first spell. This sentence provides the sole detail for what happens if the spell ends without you voluntarily terminating it by returning to your original body:


If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range).

We have three clauses in this sentence: If, then, and. The English-language reading of this makes the "and" a part of the consequential "then" portion of the statement. (And, just to be pedantic, the "then" is implied, not explicitly written out.)

So, "If the spell ends while you are in a host," the rest of that sentence takes effect. If that condition is not met, the whole sentence is null.

Therefore, if you are not in a host, you do not return to your body (or die), nor does the soul in the magic jar return to its body (or die). What happens to the soul is unspecified by the rules. You, however, have no change to your condition based on the termination of the spell.

Normally, to not be in a host, you have to have returned to your own body. However, a receptacle is not a host, either. So, while you're in the sapphire, if the ruby is destroyed, you remain in the sapphire (and under the effect of the second magic jar spell). The spell has ended, and poor Jimbob did NOT return to his own body, because neither condition required for him to do so was met: You were not in a host when the spell ended, and you didn't return to that jar to swap back with him. Where Jimbob is remains an unanswered question, at least by the mechanics. We only know where he is not: in his body.

[Necroticplague]

Where Jimbob is remains an unanswered question, at least by the mechanics. We only know where he is not: in his body.

Actually, I think one of the last lines in the spells covers this:
"Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain." Whelp, he's done for. Free body!

[Segev]

Actually, I think one of the last lines in the spells covers this:
"Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain." Whelp, he's done for. Free body!

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about and missed that line in my most recent reading. Good catch!

[daremetoidareyo]

Magic Jar is very good for staging suicides. Especially with an intelligent invisible familiar. Did you anger some jerk who is hunting your party down? Jar that fellow and bury his best gear in a safe place, write a suicide note, and jump out of a window with some rope affixed to your neck...

Framings, public meltdowns, advantageous lawyering/courts, Confessions to crimes that you have committed, break ins of prestigious mage academies via young apprentices...

Go to a gambling den, and put a huge sum of money on the underdog, then magic jar the strongest opposition and make them terrible at fighting, running, racing, (whatever your gambling on). Then collect your multiplied cash...

That paladin/druid needs to slow down on your heels; assuming his mount/companion doesn't have a protection from evil aura, you can jar that riding dog/horse's soul and run into some terrible conditions... like sitting in the middle of a wall of fire...

A commander of a large force suddenly has to deal with his men killing each other and then he finds himself trapped in a gem as you finally find yourself in his body, leading the rest of the crew to retreat...

The city's most famous artisan finds himself giving away all of his most potent wares to strangers and commoner's alike, the best of which your party can hock in the next town...

[Psyren]

Normally, to not be in a host, you have to have returned to your own body. However, a receptacle is not a host, either. So, while you're in the sapphire, if the ruby is destroyed, you remain in the sapphire (and under the effect of the second magic jar spell). The spell has ended, and poor Jimbob did NOT return to his own body, because neither condition required for him to do so was met: You were not in a host when the spell ended, and you didn't return to that jar to swap back with him. Where Jimbob is remains an unanswered question, at least by the mechanics. We only know where he is not: in his body.

If you're in a gem when the spell ends, rather than in a host, it would sound to me like you're trapped. It is the spell that gives you the power to jump around. Without an active spell giving you the ability to do so, you can't leave.

If you are in a host, it doesn't matter how far removed you are (2nd host, 5th host, 50th host etc.) You return to your own body.

[Segev]

If you're in a gem when the spell ends, rather than in a host, it would sound to me like you're trapped. It is the spell that gives you the power to jump around. Without an active spell giving you the ability to do so, you can't leave.The second spell is still active. Only the first one has been terminated. You can, from the sapphire, hop into other bodies (including the one you just vacated, formerly belonging to the now departed Jimbob Balor). Because, again, there is still an active Magic Jar spell: the one you cast while in Jimbob's body to hop into the sapphire before ordering your familiar to destroy the ruby, thus terminating the FIRST Magic Jar spell while you are neither in your own body nor in a host.


If you are in a host, it doesn't matter how far removed you are (2nd host, 5th host, 50th host etc.) You return to your own body.That's accurate. The question is, which body does the spell consider "yours?" The one from which you cast it? The second Magic Jar you cast put you into the sapphire; does that mean when that one ends, you wind up in Jimbob's former body? If not, and you wind up in the body from whence you cast the Magic Jar that put you into the ruby (which is now terminated thanks to the destruction of said ruby), how does the sapphire Magic Jar know that's the "right" one?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's fuzzy at best. (This is similar to the sketchy trick whereby double-manifesting Mind Switch substitutes for True Mind Switch at a much lower level and sans exp cost.)

Consider that, if it is somehow defined as "the body into which you were born," it now interacts very strangely with Reincarnation.

[Darrin]

If you're in a gem when the spell ends, rather than in a host, it would sound to me like you're trapped. It is the spell that gives you the power to jump around. Without an active spell giving you the ability to do so, you can't leave.

Hence the second casting of magic jar, which allows you to return to the first body you swapped into. Second spell ends normally, you stay in the new body permanently.

The OP specifically asked for "abuse", so I didn't think flagging this trick as TO (Theoretical Optimization) was necessary.

[Psyren]

Hence the second casting of magic jar, which allows you to return to the first body you swapped into. Second spell ends normally, you stay in the new body permanently.

The new body is still a host - at no point does it become "your own body."

And I know it's TO, I just disagree with the reading being used here.



That's accurate. The question is, which body does the spell consider "yours?"

Yours. No amount of secondary magic jar castings change that. If you were true resurrected, you would come back as you, not as a balor.

[Segev]

The new body is still a host - at no point does it become "your own body."But you weren't in a host when the ruby was shattered and the 1st Magic Jar ended. The spells says "If you are in a host when the spell ends," not "if you are ever in a host after the spell ends."

You are in a receptacle other than the one being shattered when the spell ends. Specifically, you are in the sapphire when the ruby is shattered. You were under the effects of two Magic Jar spells. Now you are under the effect of only one. Because you were not in a host when the first one ended, none of the "you go to your body" rules apply. You therefore stay where you are: in the sapphire. Since the Magic Jar spell that put you there is still in effect, you can hop to another body (including Jimbob's).

I feel like I'm repeating myself, because I think you're missing one or more of the key points of this. You keep referring to being in "a host," but you quite specifically are not. You keep talking as if there's only one Magic Jar spell and only one gem involved. This is not the case.

Could you please outline what you think the sequence of events in this scenario is? I do not think you and I are talking about the same scenario, given your comments.


Yours. No amount of secondary magic jar castings change that. If you were true resurrected, you would come back as you, not as a balor.If you are reincarnated, then later true resurrected, as which body do you come back? The first one, or the reincarnated one? If you are reincarnated and use Magic Jar, does the termination clause that returns you to "your" body return you to the one that died (thus killing you again), or to your reincarnated body?

What defines "yours?" I can make the argument that Magic Jar just checks to see what body you "left" when you cast it. Can you give a counter-argument? (I'm hard-pressed to, though I wouldn't object to it if one were provided.)

[Psyren]

But you weren't in a host when the ruby was shattered and the 1st Magic Jar ended. The spells says "If you are in a host when the spell ends," not "if you are ever in a host after the spell ends."

You are in a receptacle other than the one being shattered when the spell ends. Specifically, you are in the sapphire when the ruby is shattered. You were under the effects of two Magic Jar spells. Now you are under the effect of only one. Because you were not in a host when the first one ended, none of the "you go to your body" rules apply. You therefore stay where you are: in the sapphire. Since the Magic Jar spell that put you there is still in effect, you can hop to another body (including Jimbob's).

Oh no, I get that - my question is, what happens when the second magic jar ends? If you're in Jimbob, it will try to send you back home to the original - and if that is out of range or gone, you're dead. And if you're in the receptacle again, either you have Magic Jar 3 running so you can keep the carnival going, or you're trapped there because the spell ended with you in the gem.

So yes, as long as you can keep the spells going, you can keep hopping - but you're one dispel away from death or worse.

As for Reincarnate - it specifically gives you a "new body." It's yours. Magic Jar does not, so there is no relevance here.

[ace rooster]

It is not exactly broken, but functional lichdom is always nice. By binding (will need a scroll) yourself and magic jaring out you get immortality. It is many of the advantages of being a lich, without the level adjustment.

[Psyren]

It is not exactly broken, but functional lichdom is always nice. By binding (will need a scroll) yourself and magic jaring out you get immortality. It is many of the advantages of being a lich, without the level adjustment.

Until your host/jar get dispelled and you are too far away from the bound body to get back to it, causing you to die. No LA, yes, but you can't simply dispel a lich to death either.

[Segev]

Actually, if the spell ends with you in the magic jar (emphasis on the definite article; it means you have to be in the one for which the spell is ending), you go back to your body. Same is true if you are in a host.

I suppose the use of "your body" is validly interpretable to be independent of where you started when you cast the spell. "Your body" is understood by plain English, and lacking any other definitions, it is, in fact, the one you had before you started any Magic Jar shenanigans.



Speaking of shenanigans, one more has occurred to me: Use Clone on one of your party members who happens to have a physique you envy, and Magic Jar that.

[Chester]

I guess you first need to let us know what the "obvious uses" are.

I suppose I should have clarified. "Obvious" involves "taking over the big strong thing."

Some of these ideas have been quite entertaining, though!

[ace rooster]

Until your host/jar get dispelled and you are too far away from the bound body to get back to it, causing you to die. No LA, yes, but you can't simply dispel a lich to death either.

Minimus containment version in the same gem as you use for the jar. If your magic jar is dispelled then you are still in the gem (binding is not dispellable), and because you cast it you can dismiss the binding at a push. You have to stay near your 'phalactery' to avoid risk, but if immortality is the goal then it works well as 'lichdom light'. It is also a nice thematic lead into genuine lichdom.

EDIT: almost forgot to mention the massive use for this setup, avoiding ice assassins and scry and die attempts. Keeping your body permenently sealed in a gem prevents you from leaving your own hair and nailclippings about, as well as preventing people from ever seeing you. If you keep the gem 10ft from any open space then even a successful scrying attempt does not give any valid teleport targets. Throw on transdimensional spell and you can keep your gem extra safe in an extradimensional space, which teleport cannot reach (and gives an extra +5 to your saving throw against the scrying). It is not entirely foolproof, but is a solid start.


Taking over a wight and making an army out of a village is always fun. Keeping control requires some creativity but can be done.

Also bear in mind that magic jar is one of the few spells that does not need line of effect. If you can get yourself and the jar within range of a target outside of line of effect you are near impossible to kill (though plane shift can do it), especially if the target is not prepared for this sort of attack, or does not know how they are being attacked (Aim to possess low level bystanders rather than the targets themself). Sewers are very good for this, but simply being in the next room is good enough. Even if they dispel it they still do not know who attacked them, or from where.

The other thing about magic jar is that the characters that use it are full casters. They do not need to take over the baddest of the bad to be effective, and often going for the weakest option is more effective. When fighting a magic jar character a market full of commoners is a nightmare, because they can go agent smith on you, only you don't know which one it is until it attacks.

Magic jarring a rat is one of the few ways of scouting that fools true seeing. Magic jarring a pixie is greater invisabilty, and magic jarring a paladin's horse is an entertaining way to shut down his mounted combat feats (or infiltrate his camp). Doing a good impression of a pack mule is not too hard, and who would suspect that the spy is the donkey? Devotion does not help a druid's animal companion against magic jar, and often the druid will attempt to use non-lethal force on you (and on anyone else who is using lethal force). Part of the trick to using magic jar well is to remember that there are almost always bystanders or lackies about, even if it is just the rats (who can be inside the walls).

None of these things are particularly broken (good use rather than abuse), but it can be very effective. My DM did get a bit bored of the question "so, what am I?" after a while though.

As a final note, eschew materials is your friend.

[jiriku]

I have found magic jar quite useful for breaking encounters that involve a single solo monster or one boss monster and many weaker mooks. These powerful monsters usually have 4+ hit dice more than your fellow party members, so it's easy to target them correctly on the first try. Possess the boss monster through a wall, such that he doesn't know where you are or what exactly is happening if he fails his first few saves. Use your magic and the presumably overwhelming power of your new form to slaughter all the mooks, who will die wondering why the boss suddenly went berserk. :smallbiggrin: Then coup-de-grace yourself. Congratulations, you've just soloed an encounter with one spell.

[Barstro]

Magic jarring a pixie is greater invisibility,
Not sure how I feel about that. Since a pixie can turn off the invisibility at will, can it really be used in the first place? I suppose so, but then it cannot be turned off for any reason.


Doing a good impression of a pack mule is not too hard, and who would suspect that the spy is the donkey?
Absolutely love that. Hopefully I can use that soon.


Possess the boss monster ... Then coup-de-grace yourself.
Careful, you could go blind.

[Cipher Triskele]

I have an idea for a fun break, but you seem to have already found the basis of it. I'm not too familiar with the 3.5 version, but if you can cast spells other than magic jar's possession when in the jar, then you've got the other half of the exploit I'm thinking of. I'd also spring for clone when you get the opportunity, if 3.5 has that.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Even with magic jars, necromancy is a forbidden art.