Cause of death by level?

[Xhosant]

Having limited game experience, I can't claim to know how characters tends to die. I do have heard, however, that this is different between levels, with incapacitation being the game-winner at lower levels, for example.

So I ask: what do you think is the most often cause of death/defeat in each level zone (as you choose to divide them up)? Options would be HP damage, save-or-die, and so on.

[NotScaryBats]

Even against like SRD goblins (CR 1/3) with morningstars, an unlucky hit for max damage (6) could drop some of the more squishy characters.

I feel like HP damage is the leading cause of death certainly in the first 6 levels, and maybe a bit after that.

I don't play many 11+ games, so couldn't say for sure, but my experience leans slightly more towards Save or Lose like a Succubus Charming, a basilisk stoning, or that sort of thing.

[Starmage21]

"Save or Die" spells are going to be a killer at some point.

Its kind of hard to get a wizard's HP above 100 sometimes, even at 20th level (average 50+(CON*20) HP). Power Word: Kill can instagib a wizard even at 20, let alone at 14 or 15 when the BBEG Wizard could be casting it against your party.

[Elkad]

"Save or Die" spells are going to be a killer at some point.

Its kind of hard to get a wizard's HP above 100 sometimes, even at 20th level (average 50+(CON*20) HP). Power Word: Kill can instagib a wizard even at 20, let alone at 14 or 15 when the BBEG Wizard could be casting it against your party.

And that's what low-level direct damage spells are for. A Quickened Magic Missile or something is great for making sure the enemy wizard is under the PW:Kill threshold. Unlikely he has a Contingency that is worried about a measly 17hp of damage.

[Zanos]

If your level 15 plus wizard isn't immune to mind effecting he really needs to work on his defenses.

[Tvtyrant]

At low levels fall damage is tragically lethal. Nothing like falling 30 ft. To your death at level 1 (3d6 damage.)

[Starmage21]

If your level 15 plus wizard isn't immune to mind effecting he really needs to work on his defenses.

Its a death-effect too. Either layer of defense will nullify it. IT STILL HAPPENS.

[nedz]

I find it depends more upon the player, and the style of game. Luck can play a part too: we had two PC deaths due to falling down pit traps when 1st level recently. The gap between unconsciousness and death is pretty fixed whilst damage increases linearly, so low level games usually feature unconsciousness as a result of combat more than death — though characters can bleed out more easily. I do have one player who doesn't seem to feel the need to bug out, even when everyone else has — this can be often fatal.

[bjoern]

A player in my group always ALWAYS manages to die by either being swallowed or drowning. He has lost about 9 characters to one of those two. His goal for every campaign is to obtain a ring of waterbreathing and to have lots of daggers and backup daggers to cut his way out.
Its actually kind of funny for laughs. Whenever he falls into a trap with a puddle of water in it he starts having a panic attack..."No! Not again! Please god no!"

Come to think of it, it may have contributed to his fear of water IRL. lol

[Zanos]

In my current caimpaign I think most people tend to die from massive amounts of melee damage. Nobody has invested in any AC, and when enemies can hit with their iterative and do 30-40 damage per swing people tend to die quickly.

My current players are pretty bad at optimizing beyond "Take DMM Persist and buy a nightstick", though.

[Xhosant]

So the reason I'm asking is i'm building a tank class, who should have an absurd AC. Like, 1.5 times their level, plus some, natural. And that means no dex cap either.

I collect that will be relevant for a good 10 levels?

[bjoern]

So the reason I'm asking is i'm building a tank class, who should have an absurd AC. Like, 1.5 times their level, plus some, natural. And that means no dex cap either.

I collect that will be relevant for a good 10 levels?

Probably less than that.

I've found for myself that when I die, the rootcause of it was a weak save. I failed on a save of lose and am now just waiting to be CDGed.

[nedz]

So the reason I'm asking is i'm building a tank class, who should have an absurd AC. Like, 1.5 times their level, plus some, natural. And that means no dex cap either.

I collect that will be relevant for a good 10 levels?

Depends on the rest of the party. If everyone optimises their AC then the monsters you meet will just have better attack stats. It becomes an arms race, but it is slightly less dull than rocket tag.

[TechnoWarforged]

In no particular order...

1) Bad Dice Rolls
2) Killer DM
3) Dumb Decisions
4) Falling level of interest in the campaign.

[Vhaidara]

So the reason I'm asking is i'm building a tank class, who should have an absurd AC. Like, 1.5 times their level, plus some, natural. And that means no dex cap either.

I collect that will be relevant for a good 10 levels?

No. You need saves from level 1.

Sleep. Color Spray. Grease. All first level spells that will completely shut you down if you lack good saves.

The other thing a tank class needs is an ability to make things attack it. Because otherwise you run into the Dwarven Defender problem: A big, slow moving guy that doesn't hit very hard and is hard to kill. Why would you attack him if there were ANY other targets available?

[bjoern]

I once had a guy with about a 30ac, and well over 100 HP. He was a slasher with a great sword that could chop his way through enemies indiscriminately.

I then failed a dc16 will save and was asleep. And then I got my throat slit by a small sized dagger.

Most common cause of death...... min maxing rather than being rounded and balanced in as many areas as possible.

[Zeb]

The leading cause at all levels is player stupidity.

Then unlucky dice (DM Crit with high dmg, Saving throw that would be a success on 3 or higher, and environmental hazards.)

As a combination of the above two with a poor CR system random encounters have an unusually high death rate especially since you would think tailored fights should be more lethal.

Finally there is the other players, while it could sometimes be considered player stupidity, poor positioning, attacking into a grapple or using spells and abilities without checking for friendly fire results in character deaths.

[Immabozo]

"Save or Die" spells are going to be a killer at some point.

Quite literally


So the reason I'm asking is i'm building a tank class, who should have an absurd AC. Like, 1.5 times their level, plus some, natural. And that means no dex cap either.

I collect that will be relevant for a good 10 levels?

Take Steadfast determination for con to will saves.

As soon as you become unhittable, you will start suffering touch attack monsters, save or die/loose/suck and no save just die/loose/suck effects.

And 1.5 times your level is far from absurd. I once figured it out for my wildshaping druid to, through a items, a 24 hour buff, 2 12 hour buffs, 2 120 minute buffs, and then casting a 12 round buff at start of combat, at level 12, would have 87 AC and thus could, with some divination from the cleric, tank the BBEG that the DM bragged about being able to mop the hillside with our rear ends.

[sideswipe]

if you are worried about dieing, get over it and find a group that does not penalise for brining in new characters like mine :) i have only ever resurrected a character once. and in my groups it is rare. so new characters without level drops :)

[Zanos]

if you are worried about dieing, get over it and find a group that does not penalise for brining in new characters like mine :) i have only ever resurrected a character once. and in my groups it is rare. so new characters without level drops :)
Different styles for different people. Some people don't like rolling a new character every session. I personally tend to get somewhat invested in the RP of my character.

[Xhosant]

For the record, I'm not building a character, I'm designing a tank class. I just wanna make sure I got all the important bits checked.

Speaking of checked:


High(ish) hp by d10 hit die
Rather high AC (and no dex cap on armor)
Good saves (high fort/will, dex to will to make top stats count)
Mind-affecting immunity (mostly)
A tower shield that can go Cover against spells as well
Means of drawing attacks to him (details in work, either fear-causing, AoO-based block, or some combo of the 2, plus spell cover)
A boosted, adaptable WBL to fill the gaps


Also rather mobile for a Heavy, what's with no speed penalty and natural flight.

Is there something missing, that a tank ought be able to do?

[Zanos]

It depends on how independent you want it to be. Personally I think they should have some limited ability to heal themselves and remove conditions. ToB had such things with Iron Heart Surge and Iron Heart Endurance, although the former could have been worded better.

[Immabozo]

For the record, I'm not building a character, I'm designing a tank class. I just wanna make sure I got all the important bits checked.

Speaking of checked:


High(ish) hp by d10 hit die
Rather high AC (and no dex cap on armor)
Good saves (high fort/will, dex to will to make top stats count)
Mind-affecting immunity (mostly)
A tower shield that can go Cover against spells as well
Means of drawing attacks to him (details in work, either fear-causing, AoO-based block, or some combo of the 2, plus spell cover)
A boosted, adaptable WBL to fill the gaps


Also rather mobile for a Heavy, what's with no speed penalty and natural flight.

Is there something missing, that a tank ought be able to do?

Although I appreciate what you are doing, the dex to will doesn't even make sense. Con to will make more sense AND it is already in game mechanics

No max dex when you are wearing full plate makes no sense. Perhaps an item quality, but certainly not a class feature. Raise dex cap maybe, but remove it? No.

blocking spells with shields is, again, an item quality, not class feature. "I cast a spell at you that turns your shield to dust." "I block it with my shield!"

and check out ToB, there are stances in there that cover the whole making people attack you, by making it REALLY unattractive to chase and attack your allies. AoO on 5 foot step, AoO stop them from moving as soon as triggered.

after those points, you are left with good saves and higher WBL. I'd rather have a fighter's feats. At least then I could choose the stuff I wanted. Immunity to mind effecting (I believe) is an item. Higher WBL can come from killing this, lots of things. Rich things. Well built, with feats, you can do that

[Xhosant]

Although I appreciate what you are doing, the dex to will doesn't even make sense. Con to will make more sense AND it is already in game mechanics

No max dex when you are wearing full plate makes no sense. Perhaps an item quality, but certainly not a class feature. Raise dex cap maybe, but remove it? No.

blocking spells with shields is, again, an item quality, not class feature. "I cast a spell at you that turns your shield to dust." "I block it with my shield!"

and check out ToB, there are stances in there that cover the whole making people attack you, by making it REALLY unattractive to chase and attack your allies. AoO on 5 foot step, AoO stop them from moving as soon as triggered.

after those points, you are left with good saves and higher WBL. I'd rather have a fighter's feats. At least then I could choose the stuff I wanted. Immunity to mind effecting (I believe) is an item. Higher WBL can come from killing this, lots of things. Rich things. Well built, with feats, you can do that

I block out the mental influence by flexing really really hard? Short of Weapon Finesse, all X to Y is a stretch :smalltongue:

The catch is his armor (and shield, bear with me) is natural armor. So he's naked. So there's no Dex cap for the same reason dragons don't have it.

And the part to be used as a shield, is also anatomy. Technically the 'shield' just carries a shaped anti-magic field, but practically it's only good for 'Set tower shield works for spells'.

I started there, but copying something precisely is boring :smalltongue:

That's what the fighter's here for :smalltongue: Besides, killing rich stuff gets you wealth, but what could get you keeping that wealth in a pile to fuel the enchantments of your shield, armor and sword?

[DeAnno]

The Beast class in my sig was designed mostly as a Tank. A lot of the defensive abilities might be worth looking into, and I gave it a ludicrous amount of HP as the primary defense.

[sideswipe]

Different styles for different people. Some people don't like rolling a new character every session. I personally tend to get somewhat invested in the RP of my character.

every session? how bad is the kill rate in your games? i have max 2-3 per campaign. and thats the bad ones. i usually have 3-4 characters ready and most go unplayed.

edit - so yeh i am heavily invested in my role play. but im also really good at improve and stuff so a new character is a great experience.

[Vhaidara]

For the record, I'm not building a character, I'm designing a tank class. I just wanna make sure I got all the important bits checked.

Speaking of checked:


High(ish) hp by d10 hit die
Rather high AC (and no dex cap on armor)
Good saves (high fort/will, dex to will to make top stats count)
Mind-affecting immunity (mostly)
A tower shield that can go Cover against spells as well
Means of drawing attacks to him (details in work, either fear-causing, AoO-based block, or some combo of the 2, plus spell cover)
A boosted, adaptable WBL to fill the gaps


Also rather mobile for a Heavy, what's with no speed penalty and natural flight.

Is there something missing, that a tank ought be able to do?

HD: d12 or go home. Seriously, this isn't a fighter.
I think you'd be better off having them increase their armor bonus from armor, and letting them add it to Touch. When I think "Tank" I think "Wall", which Dex does not fit at all. Also, Con to Will is Matter over Mind. Dex to Will would be dodging mental attacks. Flexing would be Str to Will.
Mind affecting immunity: Good, but class feature that can be replaced with an item
Tower Shield stuff: You've just described a Tower Shield. Nothing more, nothing less.
Fear: Bad. Honestly, fear is badly written to the point of being broken when it works (high level CW Samurai can wreck people with it) and useless in vast swathes of adventuring (what's that, immune to mind affecting? Useless!).
AoO based block: this is good. Very Good. I would also make it so they get a version of Combat Reflexes that keys to Con.
WBL boost: Don't. This is not a class feature, this is a hack. WBL is so abusable that if this is meaningful when used appropriately it will be broken when used optimally


tl;dr: Tank should not aim for Dex SAD. Tank = Con SAD.

[Extra Anchovies]

In my personal gaming experience, the most common cause of character death has been a player not listening when the DM asks them "are you really sure you want to try that?" :smallbiggrin:

[Xhosant]

HD: d12 or go home. Seriously, this isn't a fighter.
I think you'd be better off having them increase their armor bonus from armor, and letting them add it to Touch. When I think "Tank" I think "Wall", which Dex does not fit at all. Also, Con to Will is Matter over Mind. Dex to Will would be dodging mental attacks. Flexing would be Str to Will.
Mind affecting immunity: Good, but class feature that can be replaced with an item
Tower Shield stuff: You've just described a Tower Shield. Nothing more, nothing less.
Fear: Bad. Honestly, fear is badly written to the point of being broken when it works (high level CW Samurai can wreck people with it) and useless in vast swathes of adventuring (what's that, immune to mind affecting? Useless!).
AoO based block: this is good. Very Good. I would also make it so they get a version of Combat Reflexes that keys to Con.
WBL boost: Don't. This is not a class feature, this is a hack. WBL is so abusable that if this is meaningful when used appropriately it will be broken when used optimally


tl;dr: Tank should not aim for Dex SAD. Tank = Con SAD.

I'll consider d12, I was afraid of going overboard with power, but if it's mandatory, it's not broken, right?

I will consider the 'con to will' but the natural armor is the class' cornerstone and initial inspiration, so it'll have to stay. Dex is good for AoO, their only bad save, and maybe touch, plus it can be their to-hit stat, so I'd leave it as a secondary. Natural to Touch is an option, though it feels kind of like cheating touch attacks. EDIT: Ghost Ward your scales (+1), now there's no such thing as touch attack.

Mostly a nod to the inspiration, honestly.

Not quite, there's this pesky Tower Shield line that says 'the cover doesn't work against spells, because they aim you by aiming the shield'. It's on the srd someplace.

I was considering fear as a secondary 'hit ME' path, after the AoO. You get frightful presence (draconic flavor class after all) triggering on a 'threatened-by-you-ally' getting attacked (1/turn). Still working on it.

I like that a lot too, if a 'threatened-by-you-ally' gets attacked, you get to use an AoO to roll an attack and... do something about their AC or the attack. Not sure what. AC bonus by whole/half roll seems whacky, by the numbers.

It's not exactly WBL. Basically, as a draconic-flavored class, you get a Hoard. On the upside, whatever enhancements the hoard (with a percentile bonus) can cover, you can distribute among your natural equipment with 8 hours of meditation. On the downside, it's a vulnerability (good for a villain of the class too, have a minion pick something expensive from the hoard as its bosses engage the now-mundane character), plus a couple features tax you a % of the Hoard at its highest, sometimes painfully.

EDIT: 'threatened-by-you-ally' is an ally in a square you would threaten, if that were an enemy. Also, I'm adding 'a solid weapon' or along those lines, basically you can't stretch to parry with a chain.

[Immabozo]

I block out the mental influence by flexing really really hard? Short of Weapon Finesse, all X to Y is a stretch :smalltongue:

As mentioned, that is Str. Are you at all into working out? Even rarely? I am. I am also a big biker. After a workout or a good ride, I feel untouchable. Things seem to affect me less negatively. Same idea.


The catch is his armor (and shield, bear with me) is natural armor. So he's naked. So there's no Dex cap for the same reason dragons don't have it.

And the part to be used as a shield, is also anatomy. Technically the 'shield' just carries a shaped anti-magic field, but practically it's only good for 'Set tower shield works for spells'.

I started there, but copying something precisely is boring :smalltongue:

That's what the fighter's here for :smalltongue: Besides, killing rich stuff gets you wealth, but what could get you keeping that wealth in a pile to fuel the enchantments of your shield, armor and sword?

So this is all racial benefits, not a class. What's the LA and RHD? Or are you doing it a la monster class progression? So in that case, no multiclassing until you are finished with the full progression?


I'll consider d12, I was afraid of going overboard with power, but if it's mandatory, it's not broken, right?

Again, a racial thing. If you are gonna make this race, a D12 sounds appropriate.


I will consider the 'con to will' but the natural armor is the class' cornerstone and initial inspiration, so it'll have to stay. Dex is good for AoO, their only bad save, and maybe touch, plus it can be their to-hit stat, so I'd leave it as a secondary. Natural to Touch is an option, though it feels kind of like cheating touch attacks. EDIT: Ghost Ward your scales (+1), now there's no such thing as touch attack.

Mostly a nod to the inspiration, honestly.

Not quite, there's this pesky Tower Shield line that says 'the cover doesn't work against spells, because they aim you by aiming the shield'. It's on the srd someplace.

again, this is all racial traits. These are all "Look how awesome my body is" not "look how much rear end I can kick with what I know and what I have"


I was considering fear as a secondary 'hit ME' path, after the AoO. You get frightful presence (draconic flavor class after all) triggering on a 'threatened-by-you-ally' getting attacked (1/turn). Still working on it.

I like that a lot too, if a 'threatened-by-you-ally' gets attacked, you get to use an AoO to roll an attack and... do something about their AC or the attack. Not sure what. AC bonus by whole/half roll seems whacky, by the numbers.

Again, this is a racial trait, like for a dragon.


It's not exactly WBL. Basically, as a draconic-flavored class, you get a Hoard. On the upside, whatever enhancements the hoard (with a percentile bonus) can cover, you can distribute among your natural equipment with 8 hours of meditation. On the downside, it's a vulnerability (good for a villain of the class too, have a minion pick something expensive from the hoard as its bosses engage the now-mundane character), plus a couple features tax you a % of the Hoard at its highest, sometimes painfully.

EDIT: 'threatened-by-you-ally' is an ally in a square you would threaten, if that were an enemy. Also, I'm adding 'a solid weapon' or along those lines, basically you can't stretch to parry with a chain.

I like what my DM did better with the "It's like a dragon hoard" idea. A kobold thought he was a dragon, so everything went into his hoard. EVERYTHING. He was given the same advantages, disadvantages and restrictions of Vow of Poverty, just refluffed

EDIT: this race should have a huge LA. Like +5 at least. Size large, huge NA, bonus to dex and str, no negatives and a bodily appendage to use as a tower shield that has straight up SR: infinite but better, since all spells are stopped by it

[Xhosant]

So this is all racial benefits, not a class. What's the LA and RHD? Or are you doing it a la monster class progression? So in that case, no multiclassing until you are finished with the full progression?
Again, a racial thing. If you are gonna make this race, a D12 sounds appropriate.
again, this is all racial traits. These are all "Look how awesome my body is" not "look how much rear end I can kick with what I know and what I have"
Again, this is a racial trait, like for a dragon.



I like what my DM did better with the "It's like a dragon hoard" idea. A kobold thought he was a dragon, so everything went into his hoard. EVERYTHING. He was given the same advantages, disadvantages and restrictions of Vow of Poverty, just refluffed

Nope, it's a class. It'll make more sense when it's done, but for now think 'i get to turn those on'
(Sorcerer is 'look how awesome my blood is', not what they know, right? :smallbiggrin: )

That's a fun idea. I may use it sometime.

EDIT: the flex idea came from an old barbarian handbook, which went like 'Con is how wide your chest is', then 'now you can block spells/mind efects/fear/weapons with your chest!" every time something got fuelled by Con/Fort.

[Immabozo]

Nope, it's a class. It'll make more sense when it's done, but for now think 'i get to turn those on'
(Sorcerer is 'look how awesome my blood is', not what they know, right? :smallbiggrin: )

True, Scorc is "my blood is just sooooooooooo cool', but yours is entirely different. Taking a level of sorc is saying "I've always had it in me, it's just now being awakened." While yours is sprouting new appendages and becoming monstrous to aberration status.

Now, if it was a Druid Wildshaping PrC, I that would fit perfectly well for me. "I made up this unnatural form and at the cost of versatility in number of forms, I gain strength in this one."

Edit:


That's a fun idea. I may use it sometime.

Thank you

Edit #2: This really belongs in the homebrew forums

[Xhosant]

True, Scorc is "my blood is just sooooooooooo cool', but yours is entirely different. Taking a level of sorc is saying "I've always had it in me, it's just now being awakened." While yours is sprouting new appendages and becoming monstrous to aberration status.

Now, if it was a Druid Wildshaping PrC, I that would fit perfectly well for me. "I made up this unnatural form and at the cost of versatility in number of forms, I gain strength in this one."

Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzGAYxaaDGs) how it works/looks. Why it works? Because the brewer says so :smallbiggrin: But if it's granted by an external source (hint, it is) then it's even more justified than a sorcerer's 'it's been sleepy'.

Edit: Thanks, you made me re-watch it and remember the taunt-arrows. That's getting included, if not built on, too.

[Immabozo]

Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzGAYxaaDGs) how it works/looks. Why it works? Because the brewer says so :smallbiggrin: But if it's granted by an external source (hint, it is) then it's even more justified than a sorcerer's 'it's been sleepy'.

Edit: Thanks, you made me re-watch it and remember the taunt-arrows. That's getting included, if not built on, too.

I have no idea what just happened. But you're welcome?

[Xhosant]

There's this bit where the guy gives a distraction to the dragon, by shooting a glowy arrow at the thing. class gets to do that in melee or range, with a fort/trigger AoO on steroids, will/be forced to attack you, and the bets way to avoid that is to focus the scaly guy anyway :smallbiggrin:

[1pwny]

So the reason I'm asking is i'm building a tank class, who should have an absurd AC. Like, 1.5 times their level, plus some, natural. And that means no dex cap either.

I collect that will be relevant for a good 10 levels?

I made a jokey Tank. It took all the damage, but just doesn't die. Here's the link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361852-The-Tank-3-5-Base-Class&p=17771427#post17771427)

[Vogonjeltz]

In my personal gaming experience, the most common cause of character death has been a player not listening when the DM asks them "are you really sure you want to try that?" :smallbiggrin:

Lesson 1: only press your luck when you are prepared for a potential storm.

[strangebloke]

If you want to build a mundane defensive class, look no further than the monk or the crusader.

Monk is hardto kill outright, with defensive features covering most angles, but has the nasty characteristic of sucking at doing anything other than staying alive.

Crusader is (much) more resilient to HP damage, but has worse saves and touch AC. On the plus side, the crusader can force people to attack him via AOOs, and is simply more flexible overall.

I could also see a homebrewed (I.E. fixed) version of the Dragon Shaman being a good tank. One of the main grips about the dragon shaman is that it doesn't actually emulate dragon-like abilities. The thing is, most standard draconic abilities are defensive. Dragons get DR, SR, all good saves, a scaling (heh) natural armor bonus, and even their DPS (breath weapon) is based off of CON.

Give those sorts of bonuses to a dragon shaman and add in a 'fight me' feature a la knight's challenge and you've got a pretty mean tank.